Making Sunlight Sensitivity Not Suicide

[Confusion567]

I'm starting up a 5e campaign soon in which Drow are a legitimate option for player characters* (as a real racial option, not just as Drizzt). However, sunlight sensitivity seems brutal. Disadvantage on all attack rolls while outside during the day (which is likely to be a large portion of the game) seems real rough.
So, I have two questions:
1) Is Sunlight Sensitivity really as bad as I think it is?
2) If so, is there a balanced way to offset it?

I have two ideas for doing so. First, sunglasses. While worn, sunlight sensitivity no longer affects attack rolls (perception checks are still hindered, but those don't matter as much for combat), but darkvision stops working. This has the advantage of being a direct trade (darkvision for sunvision), but the disadvantage of both having and eating cake ("I'm outside? I put on my sunglasses. I'm inside? I take them off. Best of both worlds."), except in corner cases (standing in sunlight attacking an enemy in shadow). Could be mitigated by putting in an "adjustment period" of half an hour after putting them on or taking them off, maybe over a short rest.

Second, change sunlight sensitivity from "it's too bright, I can't see" to something more like photosensitivity by saying that if Drow are unarmored or expose their skin to the sunlight, they take -1 AC. This has the advantage of being a noticeable but not crippling disadvantage (not to mention leading naturally to heavily-armored Drowadins), but the disadvantage of simply disappearing for certain builds.

How can I make Drow are a legitimate player option without Sunlight Sensitivity crippling any class that needs to make an attack roll?

*If you're curious, 15 years before the start of the game, a previous band of adventurers went into the Underdark and killed/banished Lolth, freeing the drow from her evil influence. Those adventurers then scattered around the world, fought amongst themselves, broke up the band, and are now ruling the various cities and factions of the setting. Meanwhile, the drow, now no longer Always Chaotic Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil), are trying to find their place in the world without an evil spider goddess. Some, bless their hearts, have even moved up to the surface, squinting and blinking all the way.

[Jacob.Tyr]

I'm starting up a 5e campaign soon in which Drow are a legitimate option for player characters* (as a real racial option, not just as Drizzt). However, sunlight sensitivity seems brutal. Disadvantage on all attack rolls while outside during the day (which is likely to be a large portion of the game) seems real rough.
So, I have two questions:
1) Is Sunlight Sensitivity really as bad as I think it is?
2) If so, is there a balanced way to offset it?

I have two ideas for doing so. First, sunglasses. While worn, sunlight sensitivity no longer affects attack rolls (perception checks are still hindered, but those don't matter as much for combat), but darkvision stops working. This has the advantage of being a direct trade (darkvision for sunvision), but the disadvantage of both having and eating cake ("I'm outside? I put on my sunglasses. I'm inside? I take them off. Best of both worlds."), except in corner cases (standing in sunlight attacking an enemy in shadow). Could be mitigated by putting in an "adjustment period" of half an hour after putting them on or taking them off, maybe over a short rest.

Second, change sunlight sensitivity from "it's too bright, I can't see" to something more like photosensitivity by saying that if Drow are unarmored or expose their skin to the sunlight, they take -1 AC. This has the advantage of being a noticeable but not crippling disadvantage (not to mention leading naturally to heavily-armored Drowadins), but the disadvantage of simply disappearing for certain builds.

How can I make Drow are a legitimate player option without Sunlight Sensitivity crippling any class that needs to make an attack roll?

*If you're curious, 15 years before the start of the game, a previous band of adventurers went into the Underdark and killed/banished Lolth, freeing the drow from her evil influence. Those adventurers then scattered around the world, fought amongst themselves, broke up the band, and are now ruling the various cities and factions of the setting. Meanwhile, the drow, now no longer Always Chaotic Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysChaoticEvil), are trying to find their place in the world without an evil spider goddess. Some, bless their hearts, have even moved up to the surface, squinting and blinking all the way.
Maybe just have the disadvantage be not every time, but more of a con check when they go into bright light, repeated every hour or so? I'd also make them unable to focus long enough to maintain any spell requiring concentration, tbh. Homebrewing an item that lets them just ignore it seems to negate it. DC11 Con, repeat every hour in bright sunlight, sunglasses gives advantage on the saving throw?

[Eslin]

It's not like drow are insanely strong anyway, so either A: ignore it or B: give them advantage on attack rolls in darkness

[Z3ro]

The sunlight sensitivity annoyed me too, though it's not daylight that's the problem, their entry says "direct sunlight". This leaves some wiggle room; fighting in a forest is totally fine, as is a cloudy day. Depending on your DM, you could argue that dawn and dusk are not periods of direct sunlight.

Frankly I like the sunglasses idea, and would use it as you described it to help mitigate what, I agree, is too large a drawback.

[DrLemniscate]

Just have it apply for either their 1st level, or on every first encounter after going from darkness to outside. Darkness being something like a cave, not just going indoors.

Both ways represent them getting used to it.

[akaddk]

If you're going to get rid of or neutralise a balancing factor, then you have to get rid of the advantages that it is there to balance as well. Given that the primary benefit of the drow subclass comes from their innate spells, I'd say that as they become more attuned to the above ground world, they begin losing their connection to the inherent magic of the Underdark.

What is the bet that anyone who wants to play a drow will then go, "But that's unfair!" People who play drow are almost always munchkins who want to get away with something, which is why they come up with things like wearing sunglasses or hats to negate the negative effects of being a drow on the surface in the first place.

[Sartharina]

Actually, I just want to play a Drow because they're a +CHA and DEX race, and glossy black/purple-black skin's kinda sexy.

[Falka]

As a former full time Drow player, I think this weakness is very interesting to RP. Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I think it shouldn't be circumvented. Drow are interesting because they're Drow, and not just elves with black skin. They're supposed to have a rough time under bright sun, so I don't think you should allow cheesy stuff to avoid the penalties.

Anyhow, situations where it would be applied should be limited to areas with no shade and possibly between 12 am - 5 pm.

[Bellberith]

If you're going to get rid of or neutralise a balancing factor, then you have to get rid of the advantages that it is there to balance as well. Given that the primary benefit of the drow subclass comes from their innate spells, I'd say that as they become more attuned to the above ground world, they begin losing their connection to the inherent magic of the Underdark.

What is the bet that anyone who wants to play a drow will then go, "But that's unfair!" People who play drow are almost always munchkins who want to get away with something, which is why they come up with things like wearing sunglasses or hats to negate the negative effects of being a drow on the surface in the first place.

Tiefling....

the drow benefit for being inept in light places is only superior darkvision.

Edit: yea, compare Drow to Tiefling..... drow gets superior darkvision, a weakness (sunlight sensitivity), and hand crossbow. plus its spells.

Tiefling gets regular darkvision, resistance to fire, spells.

think the tiefling wins even if you add the base elf stuff (resistance to charm / immune to sleep)

[akaddk]

think the tiefling wins
No, it doesn't.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

My DM (and I myself when I DM 5E) ruled that "Direct Sunlight" thing would only count if I had absolutely no way of covering up (hood, hat, helmet) or if someone stuck a bright flame/light directly into my face. I'm still planning on getting sunglasses, but so long as you're not facing someone with Daylight prepared, if you play with my group it isn't a problem.

[Knaight]

Sunlight sensitivity is likely balanced around the assumptions of where they show up by default, which is mostly underground. D&D in general tends to assume a lot of underground dungeons, and if that isn't the case in your game sunlight sensitivity really does hurt. That said, disadvantage stacking circumvents it to some extent (e.g. really long range ranged attacks).

It's also a pretty flavorful, noticeable ability. That sort of thing coming up between species, cultures, whatever is generally helpful, so it might be worth keeping around just on those accounts.

[Twilightwyrm]

No, it doesn't.

Because...?

[rollingForInit]

As a former full time Drow player, I think this weakness is very interesting to RP. Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I think it shouldn't be circumvented. Drow are interesting because they're Drow, and not just elves with black skin. They're supposed to have a rough time under bright sun, so I don't think you should allow cheesy stuff to avoid the penalties.

Anyhow, situations where it would be applied should be limited to areas with no shade and possibly between 12 am - 5 pm.

I'd say it depends on the drow in question. Are we playing a party of Drows who every now and then visit the world above ground, but usually hang out in the Underdark? The disadvantage makes perfect sense. Is it a Drow character that has just escaped from the Underdark and is still adapting? Makes sense then as well.

Are we playing a Drow who's been on the surface for years? Then no, if I were a DM I'd rule that the sensitivity is simply gone. I don't see their other benefits as strong enough to warrant such a massive drawback, especially in a party of surfacers and if the Drow is a character that relies only on attack rolls (e.g. a Fighter). I might throw in some extra fatigue if they're forced on long marches in sunlight, such as in a desert, instead. Where applicable.

[Falka]

I'd say it depends on the drow in question. Are we playing a party of Drows who every now and then visit the world above ground, but usually hang out in the Underdark? The disadvantage makes perfect sense. Is it a Drow character that has just escaped from the Underdark and is still adapting? Makes sense then as well.

Are we playing a Drow who's been on the surface for years? Then no, if I were a DM I'd rule that the sensitivity is simply gone. I don't see their other benefits as strong enough to warrant such a massive drawback, especially in a party of surfacers and if the Drow is a character that relies only on attack rolls (e.g. a Fighter). I might throw in some extra fatigue if they're forced on long marches in sunlight, such as in a desert, instead. Where applicable.

I played surface Drow for years. The theme of being a Drow is similar to a curse, and you're supposed to live in darkness. So surface-dwelling Drow are fighting against their own natural environment and nature, it's only natural that they aren't comfortable. Just like an eskimo wouldn't stand living in Africa or some fish need more water temperature to lay eggs.

Even Eilistraeen Drow, their rites and ceremonies are mostly nocturnal. They live in underground temples and thick woods and only leave during the night since it feels more natural for them. They like moonlight because it's the only kind of light that doesn't burn their eyes. It's all part of the theme.

Dunno, for me it's like playing a Red Wizard with hair or a Tiefling that looks perfectly human... I don't think people should cherry pick things from a race, it's a whole package.

[rollingForInit]

I played surface Drow for years. The theme of being a Drow is similar to a curse, and you're supposed to live in darkness. So surface-dwelling Drow are fighting against their own natural environment and nature, it's only natural that they aren't comfortable. Just like an eskimo wouldn't stand living in Africa or some fish need more water temperature to lay eggs.

Even Eilistraeen Drow, their rites and ceremonies are mostly nocturnal. They live in underground temples and thick woods and only leave during the night since it feels more natural for them. They like moonlight because it's the only kind of light that doesn't burn their eyes. It's all part of the theme.

Dunno, for me it's like playing a Red Wizard with hair or a Tiefling that looks perfectly human... I don't think people should cherry pick things from a race, it's a whole package.

But you've got drow like Drizzt who fought just fine on the surface after years of getting used to it. So well that he was one of the best fighters in the realm, so I doubt he'd have had disadvantage on his attack rolls.

I think you can do fine with role-playing a drow who isn't comfortable in sunlight and would rather be nocturnal or not walk through deserts, without severely limiting the character's ability to function in a fight. If you're going to have a drow in a party of non-drows, and do most of your adventuring during the day, it seems incredibly unfair, because there are so many things that are thematic about drow that have a lot of role-playing potential. Either they should have an awesome advantage that other races don't (e.g. advantage on all attack rolls in darkness) or they shouldn't get disadvantage on all attack rolls in daylight. Or have a drawback that doesn't prevent them from figthing, but just makes them prefer to keep out of sunlight.

I sort of like the idea of having sunglasses though, it would feel like a very natural solution, but it does remove the weakness altogether.

For that matter, there are people from cold climates who get used to living in warm climates really well, and vice versa. Not everyone can adapt, but not everyone are uncomfortable changing climate. My father's whole family is from the northernmost parts of Sweden, but my dad prefers really warm climates (e.g. Thailand).

[Bellberith]

No, it doesn't.

I applaud your well thought out reply full of reasons as to why you think so.

[Falka]

But you've got drow like Drizzt who fought just fine on the surface after years of getting used to it. So well that he was one of the best fighters in the realm, so I doubt he'd have had disadvantage on his attack rolls.

I think you can do fine with role-playing a drow who isn't comfortable in sunlight and would rather be nocturnal or not walk through deserts, without severely limiting the character's ability to function in a fight. If you're going to have a drow in a party of non-drows, and do most of your adventuring during the day, it seems incredibly unfair, because there are so many things that are thematic about drow that have a lot of role-playing potential. Either they should have an awesome advantage that other races don't (e.g. advantage on all attack rolls in darkness) or they shouldn't get disadvantage on all attack rolls in daylight. Or have a drawback that doesn't prevent them from figthing, but just makes them prefer to keep out of sunlight.

I sort of like the idea of having sunglasses though, it would feel like a very natural solution, but it does remove the weakness altogether.

For that matter, there are people from cold climates who get used to living in warm climates really well, and vice versa. Not everyone can adapt, but not everyone are uncomfortable changing climate. My father's whole family is from the northernmost parts of Sweden, but my dad prefers really warm climates (e.g. Thailand).

Drizzt is a huge fiat for anything. He also comes with a magical figurine, he's from a noble house and he has violet eyes. Does that mean all Drow have magic pokemon and come from a Noble background?

And it's not a matter of fairness or anything. Nobody forced you to play a Drow. It's just like playing a Wizard: you can't blame the game because you can't have an Action Surge. It's part of chosing what you wanted to play.

[Shadow]

My DM (and I myself when I DM 5E) ruled that "Direct Sunlight" thing would only count if I had absolutely no way of covering up (hood, hat, helmet) or if someone stuck a bright flame/light directly into my face. I'm still planning on getting sunglasses, but so long as you're not facing someone with Daylight prepared, if you play with my group it isn't a problem.

So your ruling is that, if you wear a hood/hat/helmet, then your enemies and the things that you're looking at are no longer in direct sunlight?

[Sartharina]

Drizzt is a huge fiat for anything. He also comes with a magical figurine, he's from a noble house and he has violet eyes. Does that mean all Drow have magic pokemon and come from a Noble background?No. But all Drow have the option of getting a magic figurine, taking the Noble Background, and having Violet Eyes.


And it's not a matter of fairness or anything. Nobody forced you to play a Drow. It's just like playing a Wizard: you can't blame the game because you can't have an Action Surge. It's part of chosing what you wanted to play.And you can't blame 3.5 for wanting to play a Truenamer and not being able to do anything when you try to Truename?

[Corinath]

Don't Drow get 1/day Darkness at like...level 3 or 5? You can cast that on an object, make the object a piece of your own armor, find a way to get Devil's Sight, and you're good. How frequently do you anticipate fighting in the middle of an open field in broad daylight? Even mild cloud cover, or small foliage from trees, prevents the disadvantage.

Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't seem like it'd pop up that much.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

So your ruling is that, if you wear a hood/hat/helmet, then your enemies and the things that you're looking at are no longer in direct sunlight?

That second part is just flat out ignored. I am already being punished through roleplay by being a Drow. Everyone assumes I'm going to steal their children and feed them to spiders.

[KnightOfV]

I would leave it as is. I don't think sunlight sensitivity is nearly as bad as some think. Unless you are doing some kind of desert campaign the only time you have a chance to be attacked in broad daylight with no shelter would be on the road between locations. Most monsters and popular enemies have darkvision, or dislike light because of race characteristics. And of course assassins and the like prefer darkness.

Most encounters I've ever been in or ran for players are inside, or underground, at night, in a forest, or in a city. I imagine it might come up once or twice in the course of a campaign, and you could probably take cover in shadows of trees, mountains, awnings, or whatever when it does. I don't think it would cripple a drow player at all, just maybe limit your mobility slightly on a limited number of fights.

Assuming of course your DM doesnt have it out for you and runs ever encounter mid-day in wide open areas. But then you have bigger problems :smallamused:

EDIT: just reread, and I see you are the DM. Even better, this disadvantage will come up exactly as much as you want it to.

[VoxRationis]

The easiest way to make it not suicide is to roleplay effectively by having your drow avoid sunlight when at all possible.

[Beleriphon]

If you want a trade-off I'd trade the advantage in the dark (and by extension superior dark vision) for no disadvantage in the day. That way the character has adapted to their new brighter world, but also lost some of the adaptations they get for living in darkness.

[rollingForInit]

Drizzt is a huge fiat for anything. He also comes with a magical figurine, he's from a noble house and he has violet eyes. Does that mean all Drow have magic pokemon and come from a Noble background?

And it's not a matter of fairness or anything. Nobody forced you to play a Drow. It's just like playing a Wizard: you can't blame the game because you can't have an Action Surge. It's part of chosing what you wanted to play.

Anyone can get a magical figurine, anyone can be a Noble and anyone can have violet eyes.

This would be more like complaining if the Wizard had had a very low spellcasting DC, which would've made all their save spells a lot weaker than their attack rolls. By your reasoning, there should never be any revisions or changes to anything they've written now. Because, you know, doesn't matter if it's underpowered or overpowered or game-breaking; that's how it is and if you have it in the game, it's gotta be in that particular way. No criticism allowed, just because.

[Falka]

Anyone can get a magical figurine, anyone can be a Noble and anyone can have violet eyes.

This would be more like complaining if the Wizard had had a very low spellcasting DC, which would've made all their save spells a lot weaker than their attack rolls. By your reasoning, there should never be any revisions or changes to anything they've written now. Because, you know, doesn't matter if it's underpowered or overpowered or game-breaking; that's how it is and if you have it in the game, it's gotta be in that particular way. No criticism allowed, just because.

Not really, else I wouldn't be playing 5e. But I do think that Sunlight Sensitivity is something that is inherent to being a Drow, just how werewolves are vulnerable to silver.

[rollingForInit]

Not really, else I wouldn't be playing 5e. But I do think that Sunlight Sensitivity is something that is inherent to being a Drow, just how werewolves are vulnerable to silver.

But sensitivity to silver doesn't really impact the character a whole lot, unless the enemies know that can use silvered weapons to hurt the werewolf. It probably won't come up often.

Fighing in sunlight comes up quite often, though. I don't see why you'd give the race a weakness that gives it a severe disadvantage in a large portion of fights. I mean, if people wanna play a drow hero such as Drizzt (which is even used as an example) they'd have to do it either in a campaign that takes place mostly underground or mostly during nights.

I'm not saying that there should be no light sensitivity, I am saying that a disadvantage on all attack rolls in sunlight is too severe a disadvantage, since it will come up very often. In additional to that, they don't really get a great advantage to compensate (120 feet darkvision doesn't feel like it balances it out).

[Shadow]

I absolutely love that it has a tangible and restrictive effect in play.
Drow are evil creatures from the Underdark. The surface walking drow is an extreme raritry. The non-evil surface walking drow is even moreso.... and under these rules they will continue to be, instead of the million and a half non-evil surface walking drow that came about under 3.x and 4e's rules via everyone's favorite scimitar weilding one-in-a-million exception.

[Bellberith]

Not really, else I wouldn't be playing 5e. But I do think that Sunlight Sensitivity is something that is inherent to being a Drow, just how werewolves are vulnerable to silver.

Funny thing is, Lycans aren't vulnerable to silver..... they just aren't immune to it.

Giving Drow sunlight sensitivity is a bit overboard in this edition with the stipulation that it has, where if the person/thing they are looking at is in sunlight they have disadvantage. It does make sense.... But at this point unless being a Drow is key to the flavor you are going for, Tiefling would be better. They are both demonized almost equally in society, so the social negatives are there and Tiefling has no other negatives with benefits that are just as good or better depending on campaign type. Making them the better race choice for any charisma based class.

[Falka]

Funny thing is, Lycans aren't vulnerable to silver..... they just aren't immune to it.

Giving Drow sunlight sensitivity is a bit overboard in this edition with the stipulation that it has, where if the person/thing they are looking at is in sunlight they have disadvantage. It does make sense.... But at this point unless being a Drow is key to the flavor you are going for, Tiefling would be better. They are both demonized almost equally in society, so the social negatives are there and Tiefling has no other negatives with benefits that are just as good or better depending on campaign type. Making them the better race choice for any charisma based class.

Drow do not melt in sunlight either, but they can't stand it.

This debate isn't based on which racial choice is better, though. People that pick Drow aren't looking for an optimized character, they want to incarnate Drow.

And Drow have always had Sunlight Sensitivity as part of their racial kit. It's an accurate justification for explaining why Surface Drow are quite a rare sight.

[Bellberith]

Drow do not melt in sunlight either, but they can't stand it.

This debate isn't based on which racial choice is better, though. People that pick Drow aren't looking for an optimized character, they want to incarnate Drow.

And Drow have always had Sunlight Sensitivity as part of their racial kit. It's an accurate justification for explaining why Surface Drow are quite a rare sight.

im aware, but some people seem to think the reason Drow have the sunlight sensitivity is because of balance reasons...... i was just trying to say that most likely isn't the case because even without sunlight sensitivity, tiefling is as good and sometimes better than drow.

[rlc]

I don't know, being able to see twice as far as anybody else can be pretty useful.

[Bellberith]

I don't know, being able to see twice as far as anybody else can be pretty useful.

but do you really think 60ft of darkvision is worth disadvantage on almost every single encounter that takes place outside?

[akaddk]

And Drow have always had Sunlight Sensitivity as part of their racial kit. It's an accurate justification for explaining why Surface Drow are quite a rare sight.

I have yet to encounter someone in an actual game who wasn't choosing to play a drow because they weren't a munchkin. And they always, always come up with lameass ways to neuter the downsides of sunlight sensitivity.

[Falka]

but do you really think 60ft of darkvision is worth disadvantage on almost every single encounter that takes place outside?

But that's not exactly what Sunlight Sensitivity says, I think. It refers to attack rolls against objectives which are under direct sunlight. Like when the sun is hitting on your face at 3 pm. For humans that's irksome but not maiming, while for a Drow it is.

I don't think I'd apply that for a cloudy day, or under some sort of shade, etc.

[Falka]

I have yet to encounter someone in an actual game who wasn't choosing to play a drow because they weren't a munchkin. And they always, always come up with lameass ways to neuter the downsides of sunlight sensitivity.

I played them often because I really like Eilistraee's cult and lore around it. I never really cared for the stats, and I might play Drow again in the near future. But it doesn't fit for every game.

I'd have no problem on dealing with SS if the GM allowed me to play an Eilistraeen Drow, tbh. I think it's reasonable.

[Jacob.Tyr]

If you're going to play a drow, play a drow. Not a souped up elf with a different skin tone. Avoid encounters in direct sunlight, roleplay the bias and over come it or relish in it and help spread it. Work at night, or underground. Carry a source of darkness if your adventure is in a desert, like other races do with light if they have to go underground.

[ambartanen]

but do you really think 60ft of darkvision is worth disadvantage on almost every single encounter that takes place outside?

You chose to play a drow, it's your responsibility to avoid epic duels in the town square at high noon. Really, human adventurers usually have as many fights as they can in the open during the day because they are at a huge disadvantage when fighting at night or underground- they have to carry light sources making themselves instant targets, they cannot see ambushes coming and grant constant advantage to anything that can stay in the dark while being utterly incapable of attacking it back, light sources can be put out by mundane meas or by magic making them almost utterly incapable of defending themselves. By comparison the drow light sensitivity isn't that big a deal, especially if the party likes the drow character enough to minimize the situations where fighting in direct sunlight is required.

I don't know if simply a lightly cloudy day is enough but fighting under a forest canopy or on a rainy day or inside a building all works around the penalty. If the whole party has darkvision, travelling at night and resting during the day becomes an option. If you are a drow travelling with humans, then they have a huge disadvantage in some fight and you have a moderate disadvantage in others.

But, yes, drow darkvision is equal in power to one of the best warlock invocations so it's no small boost. Add all the elven abilities, cool weapon proficiencies, serious magic boosts (more than what a feat can get you and feats are awesome in this edition) with a built-in way to turn direct sunlight into regular light once per day (and thus negate the sensitivity for one fight) and the drow definitely have a lot more going for them than most other races.

[Bellberith]

You chose to play a drow, it's your responsibility to avoid epic duels in the town square at high noon. Really, human adventurers usually have as many fights as they can in the open during the day because they are at a huge disadvantage when fighting at night or underground- they have to carry light sources making themselves instant targets, they cannot see ambushes coming and grant constant advantage to anything that can stay in the dark while being utterly incapable of attacking it back, light sources can be put out by mundane meas or by magic making them almost utterly incapable of defending themselves. By comparison the drow light sensitivity isn't that big a deal, especially if the party likes the drow character enough to minimize the situations where fighting in direct sunlight is required.

I don't know if simply a lightly cloudy day is enough but fighting under a forest canopy or on a rainy day or inside a building all works around the penalty. If the whole party has darkvision, travelling at night and resting during the day becomes an option. If you are a drow travelling with humans, then they have a huge disadvantage in some fight and you have a moderate disadvantage in others.

But, yes, drow darkvision is equal in power to one of the best warlock invocations so it's no small boost. Add all the elven abilities, cool weapon proficiencies, serious magic boosts (more than what a feat can get you and feats are awesome in this edition) with a built-in way to turn direct sunlight into regular light once per day (and thus negate the sensitivity for one fight) and the drow definitely have a lot more going for them than most other races.

superior darkvision is not equal to devil's sight.

the only elven ability to note is immunity to sleep and advantage on being charmed.

hand crossbows are fairly useless

tiefling gets pretty much the same spells AND resistance to fire

there are countless ways for a human to acquire darkvision..... one of the foremost is a magic item. (goggles of night and it doesn't need to be attuned....)

and unless you are in a party that travels at night, you will be taking the negative most of the time for direct sunlight on the enemy.

[rollingForInit]

I absolutely love that it has a tangible and restrictive effect in play.
Drow are evil creatures from the Underdark. The surface walking drow is an extreme raritry. The non-evil surface walking drow is even moreso.... and under these rules they will continue to be, instead of the million and a half non-evil surface walking drow that came about under 3.x and 4e's rules via everyone's favorite scimitar weilding one-in-a-million exception.

All of D&D is a freaking rarity. It's not like there are thousands of super hero adventurers running around every city.


If you're going to play a drow, play a drow. Not a souped up elf with a different skin tone. Avoid encounters in direct sunlight, roleplay the bias and over come it or relish in it and help spread it. Work at night, or underground. Carry a source of darkness if your adventure is in a desert, like other races do with light if they have to go underground.

That doesn't add up with the archetypical heroic drow like Drizzt. Who, again, the PHB even uses as an example.

[Sartharina]

All of D&D is a freaking rarity. It's not like there are thousands of super hero adventurers running around every city.Or in the wilderness. Adventurers in 5e are NOT the superheroes they were in 3e and 4e.

[Shadow]

All of D&D is a freaking rarity. It's not like there are thousands of super hero adventurers running around every city.

That doesn't add up with the archetypical heroic drow like Drizzt. Who, again, the PHB even uses as an example.

There aren't thousands of adventurers running around every city, no. But there are indeed thousands of adventurers running around in the world.
There is one kind hearted surface walking drow named Drizzt, and an extremely small number of worshippers of Eilistraee.... in all of Faerun.
If adventurers are the one percent of the one percent, then good drow are the one percent of the one percent of the one percent.

This expressly makes Drizzt the opposite of the archetypical heroic drow, because the concept of an archetypical heroic drow is an oxymoron. Once cannot be both an archetypical drow and a hero at the same time, for being and archetypical heroic drow means first being an archetypical drow, which is certainly not an hero.

[Sartharina]

Actually - In the PHB, it's noted that since Drizzt's rebellion, other Drow have been following suit. So there ARE Archetypical Heroic Drow.

[Shadow]

Actually - In the PHB, it's noted that since Drizzt's rebellion, other Drow have been following suit. So there ARE Archetypical Heroic Drow.

It hasn't been a mass exodus which suddenly leaves the drow of the Underdark as the minority. :smallamused:
So the archetypical drow is still not an hero, so the archetypical heroic drow remains an oxymoron.

[MustacheFart]

Not sure if this has been suggested but I would simply replace the disadvantage on attacks with disadvantage on Initiative checks. They're slower to attack in bright sun but they still now how to attack once they get going. It's a negative that's controlled, not suicide, and not a case of "having your cake and eating it to."

Simple.

You can also add disadvantage to perception checks when in sunlight if needed to.

[MustacheFart]

It hasn't been a mass exodus which suddenly leaves the drow of the Underdark as the minority. :smallamused:
So the archetypical drow is still not an hero, so the archetypical heroic drow remains an oxymoron.

I've only played a drow once in my life. When I played him, I convinced the party I wasn't a drow, played heroic while scheming in the background, framed numerous people, become the BBEG, took over DMing, successfully blocked out the sun, and ripped open a gate to the UnderDark before being "vanquished". So, yeah I played Drow Moses and freed all my evil people.

[Sartharina]

It hasn't been a mass exodus which suddenly leaves the drow of the Underdark as the minority. :smallamused:
So the archetypical drow is still not an hero, so the archetypical heroic drow remains an oxymoron.Except it's not an oxymoron, because "Heroic Drow" is what's modified by "Archetypical", not merely "Drow", nor merely "Hero". If "Archetypical" were modifying Drow, it would would be written "Archetypical, Heroic Drow".

[rlc]

but do you really think 60ft of darkvision is worth disadvantage on almost every single encounter that takes place outside?

I think that purposely putting yourself at a disadvantage is generally not a very good idea. And that a drow who does most of his traveling during the day is not a very smart drow and deserves what he gets.

[Shadow]

Except it's not an oxymoron, because "Heroic Drow" is what's modified by "Archetypical", not merely "Drow", nor merely "Hero". If "Archetypical" were modifying Drow, it would would be written "Archetypical, Heroic Drow".

Even if you want to break it down with semantics, none of that changes the fact that surface walking kind hearted drow are the 1% of 1% of 1%.
The developers have incorporated sulight sensitivity in such a way that drow won't be a dime a dozen in 5e without heavy DM cheesey allowances or stupid munchkinisms such as "hoods remove the penalties" and/or "sunglasses fix everything", and this pleases me.

[Corinath]

Even if you want to break it down with semantics, none of that changes the fact that surface walking kind hearted drow are the 1% of 1% of 1%.
The developers have incorporated sulight sensitivity in such a way that drow won't be a dime a dozen in 5e without heavy DM cheesey allowances or stupid munchkinisms such as "hoods remove the penalties" and/or "sunglasses fix everything", and this pleases me.

I agree with you here. Hoods don't mean a damn thing for staring at the sun.

And, honestly, who makes sunglasses? As a DM, I'd allow them, but holy h*** would I make the players jump through hoops to get them, while also letting them know these are not durable like modern day sunglasses, and may very well break without high level reality altering intervention. (Conjuration mage doing mage like things, or a wish spell. Seriously. If you could convince a caster to roll a 33% chance to never be able to use wish again, I'd give you ray-bans.)

[Z3ro]

I agree with you here. Hoods don't mean a damn thing for staring at the sun.


I have to disagree; baseball hats exist for this very reason.

[EvilAnagram]

I agree with you here. Hoods don't mean a damn thing for staring at the sun.

And, honestly, who makes sunglasses? As a DM, I'd allow them, but holy h*** would I make the players jump through hoops to get them, while also letting them know these are not durable like modern day sunglasses, and may very well break without high level reality altering intervention. (Conjuration mage doing mage like things, or a wish spell. Seriously. If you could convince a caster to roll a 33% chance to never be able to use wish again, I'd give you ray-bans.)

I'm pretty much where you are with this. Tinkering gnomes and alchemists are probably the only ones in a D&D setting that would have access to that kind of gear.

[Corinath]

I have to disagree; baseball hats exist for this very reason.

You and I clearly have different definitions of staring at the sun.

The RAW says when an object is in direct sunlight, without regard to the direction the sun is shining from. It's easier to look at an object with the sun behind you, but just because the sun is behind you doesn't mean an object isn't in direct sunlight.

Ergo, it's not about where the sun is relative to the direction you're looking at, which would indeed be affected by hoods or baseball hats, as much as it is about how much sunlight is hitting the object you're currently staring at (hence my glib remark about staring at the sun).

You could, perhaps, argue that the sun refracts just enough light in the atmosphere to push it over the edge when on a clear day, thereby giving disadvantage, which could be mitigated by cutting off the source of skyline sunlight refraction with use of a hood, granting normal use again, but then you're REALLY splitting hairs.

As a different example, imagine a mirror on the ground positioned perfectly to reflect the sun into your face. A hood would have no effect. Cloud cover, trees, or diminished sunlight via dawn/dusk, absolutely would. It's about the light reflecting off the object you're looking at.

EDIT: I should add that I only argue this because if there is any single DnD racial ability I've ever been granted in life, it's both superior low-light vision and sunlight sensitivity. Seriously, my roommates ask why I work in the dark. I respond with "It's dark?" "Yes it's dark, I can't see three feet ahead of me." "REALLY?!". Additionally, this is also why I don't go out for walks in the daytime if I can avoid it. Yes. Really. LoL.

[rollingForInit]

There aren't thousands of adventurers running around every city, no. But there are indeed thousands of adventurers running around in the world.
There is one kind hearted surface walking drow named Drizzt, and an extremely small number of worshippers of Eilistraee.... in all of Faerun.
If adventurers are the one percent of the one percent, then good drow are the one percent of the one percent of the one percent.

This expressly makes Drizzt the opposite of the archetypical heroic drow, because the concept of an archetypical heroic drow is an oxymoron. Once cannot be both an archetypical drow and a hero at the same time, for being and archetypical heroic drow means first being an archetypical drow, which is certainly not an hero.

But the heroes of a campaign is generally the party. When they climb in levels they'll end up being among the most powerful people in the world. That's unique enough. If there's a drow hero in the group, that's likely one of those rare few that exist.

[Sartharina]

My problem with drow wearing sunglasses is that sunglasses look silly on a drow. Suddenly, every surface drow looks like a reject from The Matrix.

[Corinath]

My problem with drow wearing sunglasses is that sunglasses look silly on a drow. Suddenly, every surface drow looks like a reject from The Matrix.

Presuming there is an enterprising gnome with the ability to mass manufacture durable and reliable sunglasses.
...
...

Whelp, guys, I know what my next character is going to be for a campaign.

[Kornaki]

My problem with drow wearing sunglasses is that sunglasses look silly on a drow. Suddenly, every surface drow looks like a reject from The Matrix.

Considering they're mostly Drizz't wannabes, I would argue more than just looks like... :smalltongue:

[rlc]

huh, i was thinking men in black.

[ambartanen]

Are these dozens of drow adventurers with sunglasses also wandering around the world in modern era business suits? Cause that is starting to sound more like a potentially funny parody than a LARPer who forgot to remove their sunglasses.

[Shadow]

The baseball hat analogy {scrubbed} it only protects your eyes from direct sunlight. It does not, however, protect your eyes from reflected light.... like.... I dunno.... polished metal.... like swords and armor and everything else in a fantasy world.
Baseball hats (and by his own comparison, hoods) are useless.

As are sunglasses. Unless you think that polarized lenses with UV protection exist in your medival fantasy world. Nope. They'd be stained glass, which does exactly nothing against the harshness of the light to one sensitive to that light.

[EvilAnagram]

The baseball hat analogy {scrub the post, scrub the quote} it only protects your eyes from direct sunlight. It does not, however, protect your eyes from reflected light.... like.... I dunno.... polished metal.... like swords and armor and everything else in a fantasy world.
Baseball hats (and by his own comparison, hoods) are useless.

As are sunglasses. Unless you think that polarized lenses with UV protection exist in your medival fantasy world. Nope. They'd be stained glass, which does exactly nothing against the harshness of the light to one sensitive to that light.

I don't know. Eye grease has been shown to be helpful when grouped with a visored hat, and drow already have near-black faces. It might help more than you think.

[Shadow]

Here's what it boils down to:
Drow are hands down the most powerful race in the PHB. To marginalize their single drawback is to make them OP compared to other racial choices, especially when that drawback is fairly easily worked around during play already.

[EvilAnagram]

Here's what it boils down to:
Drow are hands down the most powerful race in the PHB. To marginalize their single drawback is to make them OP compared to other racial choices, especially when that drawback is fairly easily worked around during play already.

Wait, what? How are they hands down the best race? They're elves with slightly better darkvision.

[Shadow]

Wait, what? How are they hands down the best race? They're elves with slightly bettertwice the darkvision.

Elves, and therefore Drow, get free proficiency in the most useful skill in the game.
Elves, and therefore Drow, get advantage on saves vs. charm and cannot be put to sleep.
And drow also get a bonus to (what is arguably) the most important mental stat in the game.
And they get dancing lights at will.
And they get faerie fire once per day.
And they get darkness once per day.
And they get proficiency in three martial weapons, which can all be keyed off of dexterity (which is their primary boosted stat) instead of strength if you choose.
No other race gets so many *good* perks via racial choice. They are the most powerful racial choice in the PHB, and them having a slightly inconvenient and fairly easy to work around drawback should not be tampered with.

[Corinath]

Elves, and therefore Drow, get free proficiency in the most useful skill in the game.
Elves, and therefore Drow, get advantage on saves vs. charm and cannot be put to sleep.
And drow also get a bonus to (what is arguably) the most important mental stat in the game.
And they get dancing lights at will.
And they get faerie fire once per day.
And they get darkness once per day.
And they get proficiency in three martial weapons, which can all be keyed off of dexterity (which is their primary boosted stat) instead of strength if you choose.
No other race gets so many *good* perks via racial choice. They are the most powerful racial choice in the PHB, and them having a slightly inconvenient and fairly easy to work around drawback should not be tampered with.

Additionally, as I mentioned before, so long as they have a source for Devil's Sight, their own 1/day darkness negates the disadvantage on those rare occasions in broad daylight. So not only is it slightly inconvenient, it's a relatively simple work around without matrix goggles.

Edit: I just looked in the book and realized Devil's Sight isn't a spell anymore. So, uh, that's fun.

[Dark Tira]

Additionally, as I mentioned before, so long as they have a source for Devil's Sight, their own 1/day darkness negates the disadvantage on those rare occasions in broad daylight. So not only is it slightly inconvenient, it's a relatively simple work around without matrix goggles.

Actually, you don't need devil's sight as long as your enemies don't have a way to see in magical darkness either. At least for attacking, since you only need 1 advantage to negate all disadvantage.

[Corinath]

Actually, you don't need devil's sight as long as your enemies don't have a way to see in magical darkness either. At least for attacking, since you only need 1 advantage to negate all disadvantage.

Wait, so how does that work then? You have Disadvantage from being in Sunlight. You have Disadvantage from not being able to see them. But since they can't see you, you gain advantage, and that negates the whole thing?

So, if both of you are in darkness, you roll as per normal if neither of you can see in the dark?

I like this.

Edit: In hindsight, with this information, really, Shadow is right. Drow is pretty damn strong, and ignoring the sunlight sensitivity both ruins some flavor of the race, but also unbalances something that they can already negate once a day.

[Bellberith]

Actually, you don't need devil's sight as long as your enemies don't have a way to see in magical darkness either. At least for attacking, since you only need 1 advantage to negate all disadvantage.

are you saying that you somehow have advantage from your enemy not being able to see you and disadvantage from not being able to see your enemy?

i dunno if it works like that.

[MeeposFire]

Well if you read the Drizzt books Drow did lose their spell powers while living long term on the surface. Since he also seems to not be too bothered eventually from the sun I would imagine that eventually he lost his vulnerability to sun light.

As for a sun glasses idea they had some back in 3e. It gave penalties for losing the vulnerability. I think giving disadvantage on perception, investigation, and similar checks may be workable and you can make it so that darkvision does not work with them on. It does not sound like too much but remember those checks are the ones that help prevent surprise and gain surprise which is very valuable. Make the glasses take an action to remove (they are attached strongly to the face so thta they cannot be removed by enemies easily) and it makes them unable to easily change them during a fight.

[Dark Tira]

are you saying that you somehow have advantage from your enemy not being able to see you and disadvantage from not being able to see your enemy?

i dunno if it works like that.

It does. Being unseen gives advantage and the advantage rules on page 173 a pretty clear that advantage and disadvantage negate each other even if there's multiple instances of one or the other.

[Corinath]

are you saying that you somehow have advantage from your enemy not being able to see you and disadvantage from not being able to see your enemy?

i dunno if it works like that.

I just looked it up. That's exactly what it says in combat.

Page 194 PHB says: "When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." The top of page 195 PHB says: "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

So, uh, yeah. However it comes with caveats. "This is true weather you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see." So, the caveat is that you have to swing in the right direction first. "the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not weather you guessed the target's location correctly."

[Dark Tira]

I just looked it up. That's exactly what it says in combat.

Page 194 PHB says: "When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll." The top of page 195 PHB says: "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

So, uh, yeah. However it comes with caveats. "This is true weather you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see." So, the caveat is that you have to swing in the right direction first. "the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not weather you guessed the target's location correctly."

Everyone is assumed to know each other's locations unless hidden. Which can make a huge mess in Darkness since being blinded means that you auto-fail sight-based perception checks.

[Shadow]

Edit: In hindsight, with this information, really, Shadow is right. Drow is pretty damn strong, and ignoring the sunlight sensitivity both ruins some flavor of the race, but also unbalances something that they can already negate once a day.

Thank goodness at least someone here sees the light. :smallsmile:

[Corinath]

Everyone is assumed to know each other's locations unless hidden. Which can make a huge mess in Darkness since being blinded means that you auto-fail sight-based perception checks.

I *think* we're saying the same thing?

While you absolutely have a normal roll against a creature with the same perception as you, it's also pretty easy to take a move action in darkness to use the hide action. As a Rogue, it's a bonus action to boot. But a monster could do it as well as part of a move action (I think?), leading you to have to guess the location.

[Knaight]

The baseball hat analogy {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} it only protects your eyes from direct sunlight. It does not, however, protect your eyes from reflected light.... like.... I dunno.... polished metal.... like swords and armor and everything else in a fantasy world.
Baseball hats (and by his own comparison, hoods) are useless.

I think you're assuming more reflectivity than is necessarily there. Parade armor is likely polished to a shine, but if it's in use there's a decent chance of being tarnished, or of currently having mud or dirt or whatever on it, or in some cases being under a surcoat, so on and so forth.

I still wouldn't consider a baseball hat all that useful. Consider looking at snow in the sun - it's bright, it's often painful, it generally sucks. I'd imagine that "sunlight vulnerability" would make the ground in general look like that, even if what you're looking at is grass, mud, rocks, etc. If it's snow, then it would really suck.

[Sartharina]

Elves, and therefore Drow, get free proficiency in the most useful skill in the game.
Elves, and therefore Drow, get advantage on saves vs. charm and cannot be put to sleep.
And drow also get a bonus to (what is arguably) the most important mental stat in the game.
And they get dancing lights at will.
And they get faerie fire once per day.
And they get darkness once per day.
And they get proficiency in three martial weapons, which can all be keyed off of dexterity (which is their primary boosted stat) instead of strength if you choose.
No other race gets so many *good* perks via racial choice. They are the most powerful racial choice in the PHB, and them having a slightly inconvenient and fairly easy to work around drawback should not be tampered with.
They get three useless spells. High and Wood Elves are just as good as Drow, if you remove Greater Darkvision and Sunlight Sensitivity.

And - either their spells are useless because they're a Spellcaster that renders them trivial boosts, or their Weapon Proficiencies are worthless because they're a Martial Character that gets them anyway, or BOTH are worthless because they're a Bard.

[Falka]

They get three useless spells. High and Wood Elves are just as good as Drow, if you remove Greater Darkvision and Sunlight Sensitivity.

And - either their spells are useless because they're a Spellcaster that renders them trivial boosts, or their Weapon Proficiencies are worthless because they're a Martial Character that gets them anyway, or BOTH are worthless because they're a Bard.

What? A Rouge with Darkness could set up an ambush quite easily, and Faerie Fire is useful for almost anybody. Sartharina, aren't you oversimplifying things a little bit? :smallconfused:

And I can't see who wouldn't like to have four free torches, honestly. Yeah, he doesn't need them for himself, but he can use them to light the path to his group... Or to scare someone!

[Lord Raziere]

oh, I thought this was going to be about vampires.

Drow are easily to solve. sunglasses aren't actually all that hard to make. its completely possible for medieval technology to make them- if they can make normal glasses, they can probably make sunglasses to.

and if you say stained glass doesn't actually help or whatever, this is a fantasy universe where wizards can fly, throw fireballs and summon creatures to do their bidding. I think they can figure out how to make a little thing like glasses to protect people with sensitive eyes. they've already accomplished far greater things, a universe where Wizards can do all that but not solve a little thing like sunglasses just breaks my suspension of disbelief.

Edit: WOW I did not read the thread. detail-controlling DM central. apparently NO ONE can handle a little thing like sunglasses existing in a fantasy world. OH NO. PEOPLE HAVE SUNGLASSES ON TO PROTECT THEIR EYES. MY FANTASY WORLD OF ANACHRONISTIC TECHNOLOGY AND MAGICAL ELVES IS RUINED FOREVER! cry me a river. in the first game I DM'd, I had a goblin pulling out shades just to do :smallcool: YEEEEEAAAAAAHH jokes whenever he killed an enemy in a certain way. I'm starting to think people place waaaaaay too much emphasis on world consistency.

[Shadow]

Fine, then find a magic pair of goggles that these wonderful and amazing wizards created for you to nullify the sunlight sensitivity.
Magic being the key word there.

[Lord Raziere]

Fine, then find a magic pair of goggles that these wonderful and amazing wizards created for you to nullify the sunlight sensitivity.
Magic being the key word there.

No, this is exactly what I'm talking about here. your one of those DM's who thinks that because they know so much about real life, that you have to make the players jump through hoops for every single little good thing because of all these reasons you compiled. this is not getting an important artifact for their quest to make a big change in the world, its a freaking pair of sunglasses its not going to screw up your game. its not going to make any big changes. its just sunglasses, let it go. seriously, let it go. :smallyuk: :smallsigh:

[Shadow]

Removing the only drawback of what is inarguably the most powerful player racial choice (aside from one variant and therefore optional rule) certainly is a big change, whether you think so or not.

[Giant2005]

Removing the only drawback of what is inarguably the most powerful player racial choice (aside from one variant and therefore optional rule) certainly is a big change, whether you think so or not.

Wow? Seriously? "Inarguably" the most powerful player racial choice?
That is an absolute farce - as long as that massive disadvantage is in play, they are inarguably the weakest player racial choice. If it were removed, they would merely be average and still probably not as powerful as a High Elf.

[Shadow]

Massive disadvantage?
In the street at noon? Enter a building and make them follow you.
In the woods at noon? Who cares, you're under the canopy.
In a prairie at noon with no way to get out of the sun? Who cares, cast darkness.
It's hardly crippling. And with that in mind, they are without a doubt the most powerful race in the PHB, hands down.

Not as powerful as a high elf? That was a joke, right? High elf is the worst elf in the book unless you want to play a wizard or trickster, and even trickster is debatable.

[Lord Raziere]

Removing the only drawback of what is inarguably the most powerful player racial choice (aside from one variant and therefore optional rule) certainly is a big change, whether you think so or not.

I'm now going to roll my eyes, facepalm and make this spoiler:

http://www.eroding.net/gc/wiki/images/1/17/Drow_unnamed.png


because apparently, that is SOOOOOOO imbalanced that we need make it a Big Freaking Deal to keep it from people. curse players doing the logical thing to cover up their weaknesses and be better at things! Drow players might....GASP......be useful! no player can have nice things!

or, oh, that is SOOOOOOOO out of place in the world, that the DM is FORCED to make changes just because of this little detail that no player ever intends to be a big deal, but no we can't have that, all the players actions must be a BIG DEAL that has a freaking BUTTERFLY EFFECT on all things or be really costly for god-forsaken reason because of some fear that is GASP, not consistent with real medieval europe....apparently because they think things are automatically going to start changing just because the PC goes and gets a useful accessory.

your in control of the world, if you don't want it to change everything else...simply make it so that it does not change everything else. come up with anything you want, any reason you want that it doesn't, just don't drag the player through some arbitrary quest for something minor as a pair of shades. thats wasting their time when they can be doing more important things. do you make them have to fight a random encounter before they can get breakfast as well?

[Falka]

oh, I thought this was going to be about vampires.

Drow are easily to solve. sunglasses aren't actually all that hard to make. its completely possible for medieval technology to make them- if they can make normal glasses, they can probably make sunglasses to.

and if you say stained glass doesn't actually help or whatever, this is a fantasy universe where wizards can fly, throw fireballs and summon creatures to do their bidding. I think they can figure out how to make a little thing like glasses to protect people with sensitive eyes. they've already accomplished far greater things, a universe where Wizards can do all that but not solve a little thing like sunglasses just breaks my suspension of disbelief.

Edit: WOW I did not read the thread. detail-controlling DM central. apparently NO ONE can handle a little thing like sunglasses existing in a fantasy world. OH NO. PEOPLE HAVE SUNGLASSES ON TO PROTECT THEIR EYES. MY FANTASY WORLD OF ANACHRONISTIC TECHNOLOGY AND MAGICAL ELVES IS RUINED FOREVER! cry me a river. in the first game I DM'd, I had a goblin pulling out shades just to do :smallcool: YEEEEEAAAAAAHH jokes whenever he killed an enemy in a certain way. I'm starting to think people place waaaaaay too much emphasis on world consistency.

They are extremely expensive, though. Normal glasses cost like 1000 gp. Sunglasses should cost even more.

[Lord Raziere]

They are extremely expensive, though. Normal glasses cost like 1000 gp. Sunglasses should cost even more.

With my houserule its 10gp. otherwise, no one will buy it. which is kind of going against the point of having something to buy y'know?

[Giant2005]

Massive disadvantage?
In the street at noon? Enter a building and make them follow you.
In the woods at noon? Who cares, you're under the canopy.
In a prairie at noon with no way to get out of the sun? Who cares, cast darkness.
It's hardly crippling. And with that in mind, they are without a doubt the most powerful race in the PHB, hands down.

Not as powerful as a high elf? That was a joke, right? High elf is the worst elf in the book unless you want to play a wizard or trickster, and even trickster is debatable.

It is amazingly crippling even against a weak enemy that shouldn't be a threat to anyone, having disadvantage puts the odds highly in favour of your death. And what do they get for it? Virtually nothing. They get the same amount of ability points as the other Elves, proficiencys which are arguably worse than the other elves, some once a day magic that doesn't have the functionality of the High Elf's infinite use cantrip and admittedly superior Darkvision. That Darkvision being better than the norm isn't enough to compensate for the most detrimental penalty in the game. Not by a long shot.

Of course I don't expect any of the above to matter to you - you have made your rather poorly thought out judgment and will hold onto it as if your life depended on it, so this will be my last word on the subject.

[Shadow]

It is amazingly crippling even against a weak enemy that shouldn't be a threat to anyone, having disadvantage puts the odds highly in favour of your death. And what do they get for it? Virtually nothing. They get the same amount of ability points as the other Elves, proficiencys which are arguably worse than the other elves, some once a day magic that doesn't have the functionality of the High Elf's infinite use cantrip and admittedly superior Darkvision. That Darkvision being better than the norm isn't enough to compensate for the most detrimental penalty in the game. Not by a long shot.

Of course I don't expect any of the above to matter to you - you have made your rather poorly thought out judgment and will hold onto it as if your life depended on it, so this will be my last word on the subject.

We'll take these on by one, shall we?

"having disadvantage puts the odds highly in favour of your death"
Or, you know, you could just do one of the things I listed above, such as walking into a building or getting under the tree canopy, or casting darkness, and no disadvantage applies because you're no longer in direct sunlight. Yep, that's crippling.

"proficiencys which are arguably worse than the other elves"
Umm, every single one of thier proficiencies is a martail weapon which can be used with thier primary stat. How is that worse than 3 martials and 1 simple, when one of the martials is str only? This is arguable at best, so we'll call it a wash.

"some once a day magic that doesn't have the functionality of the High Elf's infinite use cantrip"
Dancing Lights is infinite use, and considering you're going to want to spend a lot of time in darkness, your party will thank you for it. Hardly useless. The once a day magic is Faerie Fire, which is infinitely more useful than a cantrip; and Darkness, which saves your bacon from taking disadvantage when you can't get out of the sun.
But you contend that one cantrip and two extremely useful abilities is somehow less useful than.... a cantrip.

Dude, you have multiple ways of not taking disadvatage at alll, pretty much ever, if you're just smart about it.
So a point in the most useful mental stat, proficiencis which all compliment your primary stat, more innate magic than any other race except tiefling (all of which are useful), free prof in the most useful skill in the game, immunity to sleep, and adv on saves vs charm.... and all you have to do to get all of that is play intelligently to almost never (and quite possibly literally never) have to deal with your so-called debilitating drawback, even without cheesing some hood/sunglasses rule.

But you're right. A point in the least useful stat in the game, an extra language, and a cantrip is better .... and drow should get a big buff.... :smallsigh:

By taking away thier marginal drawback, you're also taking the flavor away and making them OP compared to other races.

[Falka]

With my houserule its 10gp. otherwise, no one will buy it. which is kind of going against the point of having something to buy y'know?

I don't think it's fair that a 10 gp item trivialises a racial disadvantage. 1500 gp is a reasonable expense or "tax" to compensate for SS.

Just like plate: you want to get the nice 8 AC bonus? Pay for it. Or make your party help you. Could make for a nice adventure.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't think it's fair that a 10 gp item trivialises a racial disadvantage. 1500 gp is a reasonable expense or "tax" to compensate for SS.

Just like plate: you want to get the nice 8 AC bonus? Pay for it. Or make your party help you. Could make for a nice adventure.

1. and as a player, I would never bother with that. I'm making a character at level 1, which I'll never be able to afford at such a level, and by the time I'll be high enough level to afford it I'll have more important things on my mind, so when do I actually find the time to get it? it seems like a calculated ploy to make me not buy it at all so that you get to keep your precious status quo from any change no matter how little.

2. and I call that "wasting the players time to go adventuring for a shiny look new look and a little extra protection when they could be doing something more important." as a DM, I don't see how making the player work for a suit of armor that will otherwise have little effect on everything else is good at all.

like if instead it was them seeking out a way to forge a powerful contract of magic with some godly being or other, THAT would be worthy of an adventure, because that will be actual power exchanged with potential to change things up and tip the scales of the world, or forge a legendary sword that does something unique and powerful that no one expects. but doing so for things like these just strikes me as unnecessary and putting on padding. unless your playing a comedy campaign and its apart of the joke: We now go on our EPIC QUEST.....For SUNGLASSES. *Insert adventuring music of your choice here for irony*

[Falka]

1. and as a player, I would never bother with that. I'm making a character at level 1, which I'll never be able to afford at such a level, and by the time I'll be high enough level to afford it I'll have more important things on my mind, so when do I actually find the time to get it? it seems like a calculated ploy to make me not buy it at all so that you get to keep your precious status quo from any change no matter how little.

2. and I call that "wasting the players time to go adventuring for a shiny look new look and a little extra protection when they could be doing something more important." as a DM, I don't see how making the player work for a suit of armor that will otherwise have little effect on everything else is good at all.

like if instead it was them seeking out a way to forge a powerful contract of magic with some godly being or other, THAT would be worthy of an adventure, because that will be actual power exchanged with potential to change things up and tip the scales of the world, or forge a legendary sword that does something unique and powerful that no one expects. but doing so for things like these just strikes me as unnecessary and putting on padding. unless your playing a comedy campaign and its apart of the joke: We now go on our EPIC QUEST.....For SUNGLASSES. *Insert adventuring music of your choice here for irony*

Really? I think that's a really nice sidequest for our Drow friend who's actually proven not be some kind of baby eater and spider summoner. I also think that you shouldn't just handle perks to level 1 characters. The player wanted to play a Drow? Fine, but being a Drow has some disadvantages attached to it and if he wants to bypass them, hey... doing a quest for shades is what some of my group would consider to be a very lenient thing to do from the DM's part.

I don't think people are forbidden from every changing things, but if you want to play an albino reject that lives in darkness, you can't just say "Hey, I don't like restrictions, so please bend the rules for me so I don't need to make any effort to play my character".

Doing sidequests to get interesting items, such as a plate armor, a rare smith treatment to make your old sword into a silvered weapon allow for players to value their efforts and how their choices become meaningful. Not everything needs to be "ZOMG EPICXXX". To be epic, first you need to stop being low level. :p You're putting level 1 characters trying to stop a god from awakening or something, right? They usually start facing goblins or some similar kind of fodder.

[Lord Raziere]

Really? I think that's a really nice sidequest for our Drow friend who's actually proven not be some kind of baby eater and spider summoner. I also think that you shouldn't just handle perks to level 1 characters. The player wanted to play a Drow? Fine, but being a Drow has some disadvantages attached to it and if he wants to bypass them, hey... doing a quest for shades is what some of my group would consider to be a very lenient thing to do from the DM's part.

I don't think people are forbidden from every changing things, but if you want to play an albino reject that lives in darkness, you can't just say "Hey, I don't like restrictions, so please bend the rules for me so I don't need to make any effort to play my character".

Doing sidequests to get interesting items, such as a plate armor, a rare smith treatment to make your old sword into a silvered weapon allow for players to value their efforts and how their choices become meaningful. Not everything needs to be "ZOMG EPICXXX". To be epic, first you need to stop being low level. :p You're putting level 1 characters trying to stop a god from awakening or something, right? They usually start facing goblins or some similar kind of fodder.

1. perk? dude, how is sunglasses a perk? and no....I'd consider it an unnecessary thing. its just shades dude. I'd consider that wasteful. Like questing for boots.

2. I don't see it as that. I see it as just being logical about how people solve their problems. sensitive eyesight? small problem, small solution. no need to make it bigger and more elaborate than what it really is. thats what your doing

3. Yes, they are facing fodder, but neither are going on a quest to pick up food from the market or shine peoples shoes. They are doing something important, which is probably protecting a small town. Peoples lives seem more important than some sunglasses at that point.

[Alcino]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet... how about making a feat that removes Sunlight Sensitivity?

[ambartanen]

I am surprised by the number of people who feel such a need to remove all the drow's interesting features in favor of just having their OP race. Maybe you should let the drow buy 1gp bottles of vitamins that give them resistance to magic damage while you are at it. They are specialer than everyone else and woefully underpowered without their spell resistance, after all.

Really, avoiding the sunlight sensitivity issue is so simple that not doing it just demonstrates your player wanted a powerful race and is too lazy to work around the drawback. The drow comes with two built-in powers that negate the sunlight sensitivity. You can literally fight in the sunlight twice a day every day and have no drawback for it while still helping out your allies with your magic powers. The sensitivity can only become a drawback if the DM or player set out on a mission to make it such.


Since it hasn't been mentioned yet... how about making a feat that removes Sunlight Sensitivity?

A feat that only does that wouldn't be powerful enough. Although a feat that let's a drow artificer craft a personal magical visor (geordie-style) that gives them both vision in magical darkness and bright daylight could be pretty cool. Maybe that and, like, the fire bolt cantrip if you want to look more like cyclops? :smallbiggrin:

[rlc]

It is amazingly crippling even against a weak enemy that shouldn't be a threat to anyone, having disadvantage puts the odds highly in favour of your death. And what do they get for it? Virtually nothing. They get the same amount of ability points as the other Elves, proficiencys which are arguably worse than the other elves, some once a day magic that doesn't have the functionality of the High Elf's infinite use cantrip and admittedly superior Darkvision. That Darkvision being better than the norm isn't enough to compensate for the most detrimental penalty in the game. Not by a long shot.

Of course I don't expect any of the above to matter to you - you have made your rather poorly thought out judgment and will hold onto it as if your life depended on it, so this will be my last word on the subject.
In all seriousness, it's really not hard to work around at all. Just don't be outside when it's sunny.

[Knaight]

1. perk? dude, how is sunglasses a perk? and no....I'd consider it an unnecessary thing. its just shades dude. I'd consider that wasteful. Like questing for boots.

2. I don't see it as that. I see it as just being logical about how people solve their problems. sensitive eyesight? small problem, small solution. no need to make it bigger and more elaborate than what it really is. thats what your doing

3. Yes, they are facing fodder, but neither are going on a quest to pick up food from the market or shine peoples shoes. They are doing something important, which is probably protecting a small town. Peoples lives seem more important than some sunglasses at that point.

As for 1 and 2 - modern optics make sensitive eyesight pretty easy to fix. Sunglasses are cheap and easy, and even corrective lenses aren't hugely expensive. However, we also have some very, very precise glass grinding tools, can make some glass while avoiding impurities relatively easily, and then have the wonderful world of plastics (which show up most often in contact lenses, thin films on glass used as coatings, etc. in optics) around it. Eyesight is a much bigger issue earlier.

Plus, the development of optics is just so cool. You have Ibn al Haytham in the 1000's, working in forced seclusion and a century ahead of his time, who's works were then lost until the 1200's. You have people doing really legitimate science with light, without any of the conveniences of electric lighting, lasers, so on and so forth. It's a fascinating subject, and having lenses treated as a big deal in fantasy based on the period works pretty well.

I'm not saying that a quest for sunglasses is a particularly good idea. However, paying a fair amount to a specialized glassworker who understands both stained glass and optics to a decent degree? That seems pretty reasonable.

[Z3ro]

Why is everyone mentioning lenses being needed for sunglasses? They absolutely aren't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_snow_goggles

[LordVonDerp]

Just get yourself some cool shades. Doubles as effective protection from basilisks.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not saying that a quest for sunglasses is a particularly good idea. However, paying a fair amount to a specialized glassworker who understands both stained glass and optics to a decent degree? That seems pretty reasonable.

Still doesn't change the fact by the time I'd be able to afford such a thing, I'd be more worried about....y'know...something like....buying a better sword to help me better save people's lives or something like that.

10gp is expensive enough. you forget that a gold piece is 100 silver pieces, each of which are 100 copper pieces. the average commoner makes money in silver pieces. meaning for a commoner to get them, they'd have to pay a 1000 silver pieces, which seems an expensive enough price for the average person in this world.

PC's are not average though. they get 100 gp at the start of character creation. thats 10,000 silver pieces, or 100,000,000 copper pieces. your acting as if GP is the usual currency in this world and that PC are just usual people, when really its like a 100 dollar bill. your basically starting off with 10,000 dollars at character creation. by your prices, 1500 gp, you'd be paying 150,000 silver pieces/dollars, which is ridiculous. the PC already inherits a small fortune in gold pieces that most commoners will never see in their lives. I'm pretty sure they can afford having sunglasses.

[Icewraith]

Wide-brimmed hat. Add in one of those full-body blanket cape things you see in old westerns (I think usually on the hispanic guys? My sample size for old westerns is a tad small).

Does the sun have direct line of effect to your eyes or skin? No. You're not in direct sunlight. Your hat is. Throw in some shades just in case you lose your hat.

I really don't have an issue with surface drow looking like that. Sunglasses for the cool factor, an awesome huge hat (you could go with a sombrero or one of those huge musketeer-style hats with a plume, and a big ol' double cloak you can hide just about anything under. Bonus points if the hat actually has a blade built into the rim that will cut anyone unwarily trying to grab the hat and so you can do a throwing trick that will make Oddjob green with envy). This isn't a terrible racial flaw, it is incentive to look like a couple different flavors of badass, depending on your tastes.

[Lord Raziere]

Wide-brimmed hat. Add in one of those full-body blanket cape things you see in old westerns (I think usually on the hispanic guys? My sample size for old westerns is a tad small).

Does the sun have direct line of effect to your eyes or skin? No. You're not in direct sunlight. Your hat is. Throw in some shades just in case you lose your hat.

I really don't have an issue with surface drow looking like that. Sunglasses for the cool factor, an awesome huge hat (you could go with a sombrero or one of those huge musketeer-style hats with a plume, and a big ol' double cloak you can hide just about anything under. Bonus points if the hat actually has a blade built into the rim that will cut anyone unwarily trying to grab the hat and so you can do a throwing trick that will make Oddjob green with envy). This isn't a terrible racial flaw, it is incentive to look like a couple different flavors of badass, depending on your tastes.

Abyss yeah man! Throw in a drow samurai who blindfolds himself and kicks peoples ass while blind, and a drow monk with a conical hat, and you got one awesome crew. maybe a former assassin with a hood while we're at it to be the silent mysterious introvert.

[Icewraith]

Abyss yeah man! Throw in a drow samurai who blindfolds himself and kicks peoples ass while blind, and a drow monk with a conical hat, and you got one awesome crew. maybe a former assassin with a hood while we're at it to be the silent mysterious introvert.

Blindfolding seems like gimping yourself, but those conical hats can look pretty badass for a swordsman or monk-type. If you were going for a european/early colonial flavor you could try those three-cornered or admiral's hats, too. With a monster greatcoat. It totally works with the finesse weapons and hand crossbows thing.

[Falka]

Still doesn't change the fact by the time I'd be able to afford such a thing, I'd be more worried about....y'know...something like....buying a better sword to help me better save people's lives or something like that.

10gp is expensive enough. you forget that a gold piece is 100 silver pieces, each of which are 100 copper pieces. the average commoner makes money in silver pieces. meaning for a commoner to get them, they'd have to pay a 1000 silver pieces, which seems an expensive enough price for the average person in this world.

PC's are not average though. they get 100 gp at the start of character creation. thats 10,000 silver pieces, or 100,000,000 copper pieces. your acting as if GP is the usual currency in this world and that PC are just usual people, when really its like a 100 dollar bill. your basically starting off with 10,000 dollars at character creation. by your prices, 1500 gp, you'd be paying 150,000 silver pieces/dollars, which is ridiculous. the PC already inherits a small fortune in gold pieces that most commoners will never see in their lives. I'm pretty sure they can afford having sunglasses.

Actually commoners tend to earn something around 2/3 gp per month. People vastly overestimate PC wealth, especially in this edition. Usually PC gear is around 100 gp if he's a melee combatant, a lot lower if he's a Monk or something. And it's mostly burned in equipment which it's not necesarily bought at the time. Your splint mail could be a family heirloom, for instance.

Btw, 100 gp is 1000 sp, not 10 k.

And yes, glasses are supposed to cost a small fortune since the kind of lenses you need to get aren't really easy to make in these anachronistic settings. Just like plate mail, they're specifically calibrated to suit your needs and only rich people could afford them.

[LordVonDerp]

Actually commoners tend to earn something around 2/3 gp per month. People vastly overestimate PC wealth, especially in this edition. Usually PC gear is around 100 gp if he's a melee combatant, a lot lower if he's a Monk or something. And it's mostly burned in equipment which it's not necesarily bought at the time. Your splint mail could be a family heirloom, for instance.

Btw, 100 gp is 1000 sp, not 10 k.

And yes, glasses are supposed to cost a small fortune since the kind of lenses you need to get aren't really easy to make in these anachronistic settings. Just like plate mail, they're specifically calibrated to suit your needs and only rich people could afford them.

Technically the sunglasses don't need to be calibrated to the person, they just need to be dark.

[Corinath]

Wide-brimmed hat. Add in one of those full-body blanket cape things you see in old westerns (I think usually on the hispanic guys? My sample size for old westerns is a tad small).

Does the sun have direct line of effect to your eyes or skin? No. You're not in direct sunlight. Your hat is. Throw in some shades just in case you lose your hat.

I really don't have an issue with surface drow looking like that. Sunglasses for the cool factor, an awesome huge hat (you could go with a sombrero or one of those huge musketeer-style hats with a plume, and a big ol' double cloak you can hide just about anything under. Bonus points if the hat actually has a blade built into the rim that will cut anyone unwarily trying to grab the hat and so you can do a throwing trick that will make Oddjob green with envy). This isn't a terrible racial flaw, it is incentive to look like a couple different flavors of badass, depending on your tastes.

Has no effect, and was covered earlier in the thread.

Disadvantage applies if the target is in direct sunlight. Not you. You having a hat doesn't change the amount of sunlight shining on the target. It just makes you look fashionable. Maybe.

Edit: The best practical and low cost solution is the Inuit Snow Goggles mentioned above. The only way I'd counter this as a DM is the notion that, had you not come from, say, Alaska, you'd probably have never heard of something like that. There may be a perception check adjustment of some kind too, due to limited field of vision above and below.

Double Edit: The phrasing is written in such a way that you could be standing in the middle of a cave and shoot at a bear in the middle of direct sunlight 30 feet away. Your attack roll gets disadvantage. You wearing a hat has no effect on that, as it doesn't change the amount of sunlight bouncing off the target and into your eyes (unless you aren't looking at it, at which point you're blind to it, and take disadvantage anyway as per rules of blind combat).

[Lord Raziere]

Actually commoners tend to earn something around 2/3 gp per month. People vastly overestimate PC wealth, especially in this edition. Usually PC gear is around 100 gp if he's a melee combatant, a lot lower if he's a Monk or something. And it's mostly burned in equipment which it's not necesarily bought at the time. Your splint mail could be a family heirloom, for instance.

Btw, 100 gp is 1000 sp, not 10 k.

And yes, glasses are supposed to cost a small fortune since the kind of lenses you need to get aren't really easy to make in these anachronistic settings. Just like plate mail, they're specifically calibrated to suit your needs and only rich people could afford them.

Ah but you still haven't answered the question:

where between saving lives and fighting monsters, do I find the time to care about spending so much money for a pair of sunglasses? I have more important things to spend my money on by then. why do you insist on making it so costly to get something so unimportant? your like one of those people who insist on getting some useless antique that does nothing but costs a lot just so you decorate your fireplace or something, when you have more important furniture and things to think about. or a lord who insists on getting some stupid little relic that doesn't even have any magic in it just so he can show it off for like one evening and make up some story about it to impress others, and then never use it again, when he should be thinking about the lives of the people under his rule and such.

I mean if this quest was for some helm that gave you eyes on the back of your head, as well being able to see through walls and so on and so forth, I can see you making a quest out of it, because that could be useful for giving someone an actual advantage in more ways than one and be something worthy of the cost. sunglasses? ....no....just no.

[MeeposFire]

Has no effect, and was covered earlier in the thread.

Disadvantage applies if the target is in direct sunlight. Not you. You having a hat doesn't change the amount of sunlight shining on the target. It just makes you look fashionable. Maybe.

Edit: The best practical and low cost solution is the Inuit Snow Goggles mentioned above. The only way I'd counter this as a DM is the notion that, had you not come from, say, Alaska, you'd probably have never heard of something like that. There may be a perception check adjustment of some kind too, due to limited field of vision above and below.

Double Edit: The phrasing is written in such a way that you could be standing in the middle of a cave and shoot at a bear in the middle of direct sunlight 30 feet away. Your attack roll gets disadvantage. You wearing a hat has no effect on that, as it doesn't change the amount of sunlight bouncing off the target and into your eyes (unless you aren't looking at it, at which point you're blind to it, and take disadvantage anyway as per rules of blind combat).

Those glasses were made by a culture where bright light was a problem that needed to be solved. Any culture could have made it but in our world they did in Alaska because that was a real problem that needed to be solved. You don't need Alaska to have these glasses you just need a culture that feels they need eye protection to protect against the sun. Honestly I don't see why the Drow do not do this themselves. The only reason that it isn't known better is that most Drow do not want to go to the surface and thus they are not well known. Even when they make raids they time them for night because classically in the novels sun light destroys their equipment so prolonged encounters top side are rare.

[Falka]

Ah but you still haven't answered the question:

where between saving lives and fighting monsters, do I find the time to care about spending so much money for a pair of sunglasses? I have more important things to spend my money on by then. why do you insist on making it so costly to get something so unimportant? your like one of those people who insist on getting some useless antique that does nothing but costs a lot just so you decorate your fireplace or something, when you have more important furniture and things to think about. or a lord who insists on getting some stupid little relic that doesn't even have any magic in it just so he can show it off for like one evening and make up some story about it to impress others, and then never use it again, when he should be thinking about the lives of the people under his rule and such.

I mean if this quest was for some helm that gave you eyes on the back of your head, as well being able to see through walls and so on and so forth, I can see you making a quest out of it, because that could be useful for giving someone an actual advantage in more ways than one and be something worthy of the cost. sunglasses? ....no....just no.

Well, it's you who wants a very specific and difficult item to craft to bypass a very specific physic disability. It's worth as much as you value your 'gimpness'. If you think it's critical for you, then you'll spend time trying to earn it. A 'stupid antique' is something that only holds abstract or aesthetical value, not actual usefulness. I don't think that crafted shades for Drow enter such category.

It's expensive precisely because it's a very eccentric comodity that isn't easy to make. Just like plate. Yeah, you can kick and whine about how unfair the world is because cinnamon is worth around 100 gp per gram, when it's just a spice to make food tasty. Things are worth depending on how easy it is to make it or get it, and/or how much time and effort it takes to craft it.

Shades with the average D&D technology are damn hard to craft to be functional. So, 1000 gp at least.

Again, if you think it's useless, then don't buy them. You don't actually need them to play a Drow.

[Corinath]

The only reason that it isn't known better is that most Drow do not want to go to the surface and thus they are not well known.

Answered you with your own quote.

Inuit lived in their problem. Drow do not.

Edit: I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm just saying I'd figure out a scenario that warrants logic (please no "Logic has no place with fireballs" rebuttals). A Drow without a background in engineering or physics to suddenly invent goggles that most people with modern day understandings of physics wouldn't think of barring a google search would warrant system to overcome it.

I'm talking about having to see the Drow actively try to solve the problem constantly, rolling Wisdom or Intelligence checks (whatever seems better), and waiting for a 19-20 to even get the idea on it's functionality. Then it's still a matter of contacting an artisan if the group doesn't have one, commissioning it, etc. etc.

It's up to the DM, as with all things, but really, it's meant to be a minor inconvenience to an already powerful race, as Shadow pointed out. I'd absolutely sidetrack the hell out of a character wanting to overcome the rare disadvantage.

[Icewraith]

Has no effect, and was covered earlier in the thread.

Disadvantage applies if the target is in direct sunlight. Not you. You having a hat doesn't change the amount of sunlight shining on the target. It just makes you look fashionable. Maybe.

Edit: The best practical and low cost solution is the Inuit Snow Goggles mentioned above. The only way I'd counter this as a DM is the notion that, had you not come from, say, Alaska, you'd probably have never heard of something like that. There may be a perception check adjustment of some kind too, due to limited field of vision above and below.

Double Edit: The phrasing is written in such a way that you could be standing in the middle of a cave and shoot at a bear in the middle of direct sunlight 30 feet away. Your attack roll gets disadvantage. You wearing a hat has no effect on that, as it doesn't change the amount of sunlight bouncing off the target and into your eyes (unless you aren't looking at it, at which point you're blind to it, and take disadvantage anyway as per rules of blind combat).



sunlight bouncing off the target and into your eyes


Unless the bear has been polished to a mirror finish, sunlight that bounces off of it is no longer direct from the sun. Light bouncing off things and going into eyes is how eyes work at all. Light so intense that it still causes difficulty seeing when bounced off a (non-mecha)bear is probably going to reduce the bear to a charred husk in a matter of minutes.

I did skip over the middle of the thread however. The target being in sunlight is really weird and means that the player and dm have to track all possible targets instead of just the drow's position with respect to sunlight. It's a lot more work for the DM and a lot more potential DM screwing of the player. Helloooo dysfunctional rule.

[Corinath]

Unless the bear has been polished to a mirror finish, sunlight that bounces off of it is no longer direct from the sun. Light bouncing off things and going into eyes is how eyes work at all. Light so intense that it still causes difficulty seeing when bounced off a (non-mecha)bear is probably going to reduce the bear to a charred husk in a matter of minutes.

I did skip over the middle of the thread however. The target being in sunlight is really weird and means that the player and dm have to track all possible targets instead of just the drow's position with respect to sunlight. It's a lot more work for the DM and a lot more potential DM screwing of the player. Helloooo dysfunctional rule.

I actually don't think it's dysfunctional. It's not about the light itself being intense. It's about the drow's eyesight. As I mentioned in the thread earlier, I do have very sensitive eyes, and I live in an incredibly sunny region of the U.S. If I step outside and look at a blade of grass without cloud cover at high noon, especially in summer, I'm already squinting and turning away.

I think you're underestimating how sensitive the drow's eyes are written to be.

Think of it like waking up with an rancorous hangover from a night of crazy drinking with friends. Even light jazz music sounds like it could kill you.

Edit: just stepped outside to go to work. Blade of grass analogy slightly hyperbolic. Not by much though, as I'm not walking with my head up much. LoL.

[rlc]

Still doesn't change the fact by the time I'd be able to afford such a thing, I'd be more worried about....y'know...something like....buying a better sword to help me better save people's lives or something like that.

10gp is expensive enough. you forget that a gold piece is 100 silver pieces, each of which are 100 copper pieces. the average commoner makes money in silver pieces. meaning for a commoner to get them, they'd have to pay a 1000 silver pieces, which seems an expensive enough price for the average person in this world.

PC's are not average though. they get 100 gp at the start of character creation. thats 10,000 silver pieces, or 100,000,000 copper pieces. your acting as if GP is the usual currency in this world and that PC are just usual people, when really its like a 100 dollar bill. your basically starting off with 10,000 dollars at character creation. by your prices, 1500 gp, you'd be paying 150,000 silver pieces/dollars, which is ridiculous. the PC already inherits a small fortune in gold pieces that most commoners will never see in their lives. I'm pretty sure they can afford having sunglasses.

honest question: do you plan on giving each subrace of every race an awesome item that makes it super awesome at level 1?

[MeeposFire]

honest question: do you plan on giving each subrace of every race an awesome item that makes it super awesome at level 1?

NO but that would require an item that makes drow super awesome which this doesn't. Despite what some are saying here Drow are not that good. They are fairly meh. And that is without the light sensitivity. With it they are close to the not really worth it at all pile. Granted it is not unplayable but I certainly get a feeling of "why?" (outside of wanting to specifically playing a Drow because you want to I am just talking about mechanically). Notice any glasses I advocated come with drawbacks so this is not a free lunch.

This item is for making a race not suck for many people.

[Shadow]

This item is for making a race not suck for many people.

The race already doesn't suck. The race is already well balanced with the other races, and is quite a bit more powerful than some (even with SS included).
The glasses are about making a balanced race OP in comparison, because some players want to be OP.

[Lord Raziere]

Well, it's you who wants a very specific and difficult item to craft to bypass a very specific physic disability. It's worth as much as you value your 'gimpness'. If you think it's critical for you, then you'll spend time trying to earn it. A 'stupid antique' is something that only holds abstract or aesthetical value, not actual usefulness. I don't think that crafted shades for Drow enter such category.

It's expensive precisely because it's a very eccentric comodity that isn't easy to make. Just like plate. Yeah, you can kick and whine about how unfair the world is because cinnamon is worth around 100 gp per gram, when it's just a spice to make food tasty. Things are worth depending on how easy it is to make it or get it, and/or how much time and effort it takes to craft it.

Shades with the average D&D technology are damn hard to craft to be functional. So, 1000 gp at least.

Again, if you think it's useless, then don't buy them. You don't actually need them to play a Drow.

I don't think they useless, I just think your intentionally manipulating me into not buying them by pricing them so much. I want them, but I won't get them if your going to be so unreasonable about it. I'm just going to leave the game. At least a person who says "no you can't get sunglasses ever" is being honest about it. your just pretending as if I can get them, but making it possible in a way so that I won't, like dangling a carrot just out of reach.


honest question: do you plan on giving each subrace of every race an awesome item that makes it super awesome at level 1?

Honest question: is that question just a loaded question designed to trick me into saying "no" and thus reject my argument on the grounds of the slight balances of race? its classes that are the real balance problem not races. a slight weakness there or not there isn't going to make much difference compared to the vast power the classes grant in the grand scheme of things.

[MeeposFire]

The race already doesn't suck. The race is already well balanced with the other races, and is quite a bit more powerful than some (even with SS included).
The glasses are about making a balanced race OP in comparison, because some players want to be OP.

Lol and I disagree with you. It is not special. Frankly I find it rather pedestrian. Generally I would rather use halfings, dwarves, and humans than the drow.

[Shadow]

That it doesn't appleal to you says nothing of its power. If that were the case, every single character ever rolled would be a tier 1 class, which is obviously not the case.

[rlc]

Honest question: is that question just a loaded question designed to trick me into saying "no" and thus reject my argument on the grounds of the slight balances of race? its classes that are the real balance problem not races. a slight weakness there or not there isn't going to make much difference compared to the vast power the classes grant in the grand scheme of things.

then why bother having sunglasses at all if they're as unimportant as you keep claiming they are?

[Lord Raziere]

That it doesn't appleal to you says nothing of its power. If that were the case, every single character ever rolled would be a tier 1 class, which is obviously not the case.

*looks at Drow*

I don't see how they're so powerful. its just a few useless illusion effects and good darkvision. I don't see how I'd be using those much. and last time I read Drizzt, I remember the darkness spell blinding the drow who used it as well, so its not really solving the problem, just giving everyone else the problem as well. which would be detrimental to the party. so, not a good idea. the only reason Drizz't was good with it because he learned how to blind-fight in spheres of darkness.


then why bother having sunglasses at all if they're as unimportant as you keep claiming they are?

they are not unimportant. but they are just sunglasses. like how food is important. but its still just food.

[rlc]

why do you insist on making it so costly to get something so unimportant?

make up your mind.

[Lord Raziere]

make up your mind.

It is. sunglasses are important- like how food is important. on the small-scale....not important you can miss a meal and still live. on the large scale, it causes famine.

similarly, one drow having sunglasses isn't going to throw everything out of whack. its just one drow with sunglasses, and not worth spending time on. however if the goal is to give all the drow sunglasses in character, THAT is quest worthy. and possibly subject to unintended consequences. that I can see being a worthy quest to go on.

[pwykersotz]

Double Edit: The phrasing is written in such a way that you could be standing in the middle of a cave and shoot at a bear in the middle of direct sunlight 30 feet away. Your attack roll gets disadvantage. You wearing a hat has no effect on that, as it doesn't change the amount of sunlight bouncing off the target and into your eyes (unless you aren't looking at it, at which point you're blind to it, and take disadvantage anyway as per rules of blind combat).

The solution is simple. Put a hat on the bear! :smallcool:

[Falka]

It is. sunglasses are important- like how food is important. on the small-scale....not important you can miss a meal and still live. on the large scale, it causes famine.

similarly, one drow having sunglasses isn't going to throw everything out of whack. its just one drow with sunglasses, and not worth spending time on. however if the goal is to give all the drow sunglasses in character, THAT is quest worthy. and possibly subject to unintended consequences. that I can see being a worthy quest to go on.

It's like giving a Fighter a free plate mail at level 1. It's just one Fighter, it's not going to throw things out of whack, right?

You're asking for an item that allows you to bypass a racial weakness and in RAW it's considered to be expensive (or at least, glasses are expensive: we just assumed by analogy that ad hoc shades would entail a similar cost since they should be adapted for the drow's eyevision).

[rlc]

It is. sunglasses are important- like how food is important. on the small-scale....not important you can miss a meal and still live. on the large scale, it causes famine.

similarly, one drow having sunglasses isn't going to throw everything out of whack. its just one drow with sunglasses, and not worth spending time on. however if the goal is to give all the drow sunglasses in character, THAT is quest worthy. and possibly subject to unintended consequences. that I can see being a worthy quest to go on.

it's literally a game changing item. and you want to sell it for 10 coins.
well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

[Knaight]

where between saving lives and fighting monsters, do I find the time to care about spending so much money for a pair of sunglasses? I have more important things to spend my money on by then. why do you insist on making it so costly to get something so unimportant?

You're buying an extremely high technology item that requires a lot of specialized knowledge to craft, that hugely mitigates a species wide weakness. It will be more effective for the character than a magic sword and a few other items would be. I'm not seeing these other things as all that important, where the glasses really are.

[Lord Raziere]

It's like giving a Fighter a free plate mail at level 1. It's just one Fighter, it's not going to throw things out of whack, right?

You're asking for an item that allows you to bypass a racial weakness and in RAW it's considered to be expensive (or at least, glasses are expensive: we just assumed by analogy that ad hoc shades would entail a similar cost since they should be adapted for the drow's eyevision).

Well no its not going to throw anything out of whack... its just one fighter. I'd be okay with it, if the character's concept include plate mail.


it's literally a game changing item. and you want to sell it for 10 coins.
well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

How? its just sunglasses. let it go. I don't see how a pair of sunglasses can possibly change the game so much that I have to limit it, the power of a wizard, I can see why, they are incredibly powerful, but these are just sunglasses dude, don't make mountains out of molehills.


You're buying an extremely high technology item that requires a lot of specialized knowledge to craft, that hugely mitigates a species wide weakness. It will be more effective for the character than a magic sword and a few other items would be. I'm not seeing these other things as all that important, where the glasses really are.

That has the end effect of only protecting your eyes from sunlight, which is a hell of a lot of trouble to go through for something so minor and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I can understand if all this work is going to be say, making goggles that see peoples thoughts or something that changes things up like that, but protecting yourself from sunlight is a pretty normal thing, like barely worth commenting on. Its like questing for a pair of normal shoes, so that your not uncomfortable walking barefoot.

[Shadow]

How? its just sunglasses. let it go. I don't see how a pair of sunglasses can possibly change the game so much that I have to limit it, the power of a wizard, I can see why, they are incredibly powerful, but these are just sunglasses dude, don't make mountains out of molehills.

Except that you aren't trying to protect your eyes from sunlight.
You're trying to protect your character from ever taking disadvantage on perception checks or attack rolls when that is the balancing factor for the race.
You're trying to spend 10gp to completely remove a racial drawback.

What if we were playing 3.5 and I asked you to sell me a 10gp item which raised my halfling's Str by 2 and made me medium? What would you say?

[Lord Raziere]

What if we were playing 3.5 and I asked you to sell me a 10gp item which raised my halfling's Str by 2 and made me medium? What would you say?

Hm, must be a guy playing a halfling who wants to be taller and stronger, an interesting concept, perhaps a halfling who wants to be a dwarf? a transracial character. interesting. I like it.

[Knaight]

That has the end effect of only protecting your eyes from sunlight, which is a hell of a lot of trouble to go through for something so minor and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I can understand if all this work is going to be say, making goggles that see peoples thoughts or something that changes things up like that, but protecting yourself from sunlight is a pretty normal thing, like barely worth commenting on. Its like questing for a pair of normal shoes, so that your not uncomfortable walking barefoot.

Armor just has the end effect of protecting some tissues from various traumas. Sounds minor and inconsequential.

[Shadow]

Hm, must be a guy playing a halfling who wants to be taller and stronger, an interesting concept, perhaps a halfling who wants to be a dwarf? a transracial character. interesting. I like it.

OK, then just play an high elf or a wild elf.
Problem solved.

Or did I read that wrong and you would actually sell me a 10gp item to make me medium and add +2 str?
For 10gp.
At level 1

[Lord Raziere]

OK, then just play an high elf or a wild elf.
Problem solved.

Nope. thats not a drow. don't tell me that one elf is another. don't insult me by saying that I only care about the stats, the stats have nothing to do with this. its the fact that its the option labeled drow, and that its option I find interesting. trying to play a drow while the option labeled "wood elf" is like trying to play a wizard using a rogue. its just wrong.

[rlc]

How? its just sunglasses. let it go. I don't see how a pair of sunglasses can possibly change the game so much that I have to limit it, the power of a wizard, I can see why, they are incredibly powerful, but these are just sunglasses dude, don't make mountains out of molehills.

you don't seem to understand. they change an important aspect of what makes something a specific race in this edition. that's pretty damn powerful. and you want to sell it for pocket change.

[Lord Raziere]

you don't seem to understand. they change an important aspect of what makes something a specific race in this edition. that's pretty damn powerful. and you want to sell it for pocket change.

No, selling it for 10 copper pieces would be selling it for pocket change.

No, it covers that aspect up. its not as if they're cybernetic attachment eyes. or in this case new golem eyes.

[captpike]

I absolutely love that it has a tangible and restrictive effect in play.
Drow are evil creatures from the Underdark. The surface walking drow is an extreme raritry. The non-evil surface walking drow is even moreso.... and under these rules they will continue to be, instead of the million and a half non-evil surface walking drow that came about under 3.x and 4e's rules via everyone's favorite scimitar weilding one-in-a-million exception.

and here I though the players got to decide those things....I guess Wotc wants to force players not to play drow because they will be crippled if they do




Just like plate: you want to get the nice 8 AC bonus? Pay for it. Or make your party help you. Could make for a nice adventure.

that is fun I agree, just like having everyone chip in for the rogues thieves tools because they cost 500g or having to give all the loot to the wizard becuase he needs to pay 100g per page.

armor is a class feature, you should not charge some classes for class features and not others


Even if you want to break it down with semantics, none of that changes the fact that surface walking kind hearted drow are the 1% of 1% of 1%.
The developers have incorporated sulight sensitivity in such a way that drow won't be a dime a dozen in 5e without heavy DM cheesey allowances or stupid munchkinisms such as "hoods remove the penalties" and/or "sunglasses fix everything", and this pleases me.

wonder of wonders, PC's are more rare then that so your good to go

[Corinath]

Whelp, I've tried all logic aside I can muster. Additionally, we have a few people commenting on the thread who haven't read the thread, so some of the arguments are becoming circular. So, here are my final thoughts regarding everything, then I'm going to peace out. Enjoy your sunglasses.

5e is all about DM modification over anything vague. A prime example is the warlock level invocation issue, which was officially answered (in another thread) by WotC as basically "consult your DM."

While DnD in and of itself has a strange sort of verisimilitude due to "hey I can make fireballs with my hands" as it's theme, it still has it's own set of rules and whatnot. I've never heard of or seen any character, Drow or otherwise, wearing any kind of sunglasses, or article of clothing designed specifically to mitigate perception in the sunlight. I'm not as well read as many of you, sure.

Additionally likening them to shoes is a poor analogy. Everyone could use shoes. Not everyone could use sunglasses. The only people likely to invent something not already created are likely to only invent them if their lives are enhanced in some way by it. Meaning, specifically, Drow. Though you could make an argument for gnomes, being it's racial flavor for them to tinker.

Drow nearly never raid in the sun. Or appear in the sun. As mentioned before, it's a 1% deal. You trying to find a Drow inventor with the wherewithal to create sunglasses that mitigate sunlight and UV rays from the sun (assuming DnD's sun shines UV rays. Consult your DM) ranks pretty high up there. The only alternative is to discover someone with transmutation powers, which, even then, are usually temporary. (Illusionist or Transmutation wizard of varying levels). They are likely to be just as rare as a surface dwelling, neutral or above alignment, engineering Drow.

If Drow regularly had colonies on the surface, this would be an entirely different matter, as pointed out with the Inuit goggles. A group of people dealing with snow blindness on a regular basis invent a means of getting around it. An entire culture had to invent them.

That's all in context of the world.

Out of context in the balance of the game, you're not only cherry picking, you're doing it in a way that is absolutely unnecessary. It's a step away from asking to do a point by ability score with an extra 2 points. Regardless of weather or not the racial abilities of Drow are strong in context with the character you want to draw up (and they're pretty strong regardless), the Drow's own feats mitigate your disadvantage at least twice a day. And it also ruins some of the flavor you could possibly play with. Do not underestimate the sensitivity of their eyes. Go out, get drunk some time, and walk outside the next day at high noon and see how fun that is. That's them, ^2, all the time.

In short, they have a unique problem that not enough of them have faced, as a race, to collectively have found an adaptation towards. And I would recommend to a player playing Drow to take from their race's rich history to find a solution.

"Don't raid in the daylight, silly."

I'm out. Have fun arguing in circles now. Consult your DM.

[Lord Raziere]

Out of context in the balance of the game, you're not only cherry picking, you're doing it in a way that is absolutely unnecessary. It's a step away from asking to do a point by ability score with an extra 2 points. Regardless of weather or not the racial abilities of Drow are strong in context with the character you want to draw up (and they're pretty strong regardless), the Drow's own feats mitigate your disadvantage at least twice a day. .

If you think thats anywhere near good enough, I have a bridge to sell you to Terabithia.

[rlc]

No, selling it for 10 copper pieces would be selling it for pocket change.

No, it covers that aspect up. its not as if they're cybernetic attachment eyes. or in this case new golem eyes.
...yeah, it covers it up. Which is the same thing as changing it, as long as you're wearing that item.

[Lord Raziere]

And?

Its just sunglasses. are you going to make people quest for thick cold weather outfits since no one dwells in the snow? let them die of frostbite and such just because, when they have more important quests to worry about? or are you going to make them get the cold weather stuff first to brave such climes, so that the game doesn't get bogged down dealing with survival bull no one cares about, because everyone involved was too stupid to put on the right clothes beforehand? I don't have time to be a jerk to my players like that.

You don't let a Drow player out of their tunnels without something to protect them, reading Drizz't dealing with that kind of bull is a part of his novels. going through that in a game is annoying. my drows just wouldn't be stupid enough not to go out to the surface with donning the protection, and I don't see why your so insistent upon making it so freaking hard to get, unless you want to make it a big apart of their backstory, but I still tilt my head at "and then he went upon this big quest to obtain sunglasses and had to fight such and such for the materials" because its like.....dude, why are you wasting so much backstory on sunglasses?

I mean, whats the roleplaying potential here? are we really going to dramatize sunglasses for no reason?

"These sunglasses mean a lot to me! I journeyed through the underdark, battling creatures of the deep, just to get the certain stone, to bring it back to the smith who worked five days to make it right, and bestow it upon me so that I may be shielded from the burning sun above! These sunglasses are my TICKET to the DIVINE ROAD of being accepted upon the surface, my SYMBOL of my FREEEEEDOM!!! Disparage not these spectacles, for they are what give me my MOBILITY DURING THE DAAAAAAYLIIIIIGHT!!!"

I mean I could see that being used for a comedy campaign but.....other than that....well lets just say I'd make this alteration for any other kind of campaign:
"These sunglasses mean a lot to me! I journeyed through the underdark, battling creatures of the deep, just to get the certain stone, to bring it back to the smith who worked five days to make it right, and bestow it upon me so that I may be shielded from the burning sun above! These sunglasses are my TICKET to the DIVINE ROAD of being accepted upon the surface, my SYMBOL of my FREEEEEDOM!!! Disparage not these spectacles, for they are what give me my MOBILITY DURING THE DAAAAAAYLIIIIIGHT!!!"
Other person:......Really?
Drow: No. I got these at the general shop, where'd you THINK I'd get these? I can't function without them. Its just practical.

[VoxRationis]

Lord Raziere, we know that you hate the very concept of there being *gasp* restrictions or drawbacks to characters in your idea of "fantasy," but please consider that others do ask that their campaigns function on principles other than nauseating levels of "Rule of Cool." Sunglasses are an anachronism even by the standards of D&D, which does, regardless of what some might argue, have tolerance limits on anachronism. (You will not find silicon wafer production lines in the "default" setting of D&D, for instance.) You are seeking to impose upon a campaign setting an item entirely alien to its material culture, for the purpose of your dislike of a reasonable mechanical penalty for your character. This is unreasonable.

[cobaltstarfire]

OK, then just play an high elf or a wild elf.
Problem solved.



That isn't a problem solved if the person wants to play a drow for RP reasons.

That said I think I'd probably try to take a middle ground on the whole issue. Like letting their daylight vision improve over the course of I dunno 5-10 levels, at the cost of their dark vision diminishing, and their sensitivity being slightly less but still there. (instead of all the time in bright light, only if you suddenly change brightness, or get a spell like light or something to the face).

I'd also give them an option to try to find goggles, but the goggles would have to have some other sort of penalty on them. You could get goggles for light sensitive creatures in 3.5, but they had a search/spot penalty. I'd probably add a penalty to something like ac/and or dex saves since goggles leave you with no peripheral vision if just having a disadvantage in investigation isn't a big enough. (also if you use the goggles, than your eyes won't get more tolerant of light over time).

Edit: PS when I talk about goggles, I'm talking about something you or I would be wearing while welding or working with molten glass. Or the sort of thing aboriginals wore to prevent snow blindness. The sorts with glass in them are nearly a quarter of an inch thick and pretty heavy. I don't think they are beyond the technology level of a fantasy world.

[Agrippa]

Sunglasses wouldn't really be anachronistic (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?687952-Watching-Django-Unchained-I-ve-discovered-my-favorite-anachronism) for a Renaissance (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?705465-How-anachronistic-are-tinted-glasses-in-a-renaissance-fantasy-game) or even antiquity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunglasses#Precursors) based setting.

[Shadow]

I'm still waiting for him to flat out tell me that either:
(a) He would sell my 3.x 1st level halfling an item for 10gp which adds +2 Str and makes me medium
--or--
(b) He would not sell me such an item
--in which case--
(a) This discussion is over because he obviously cares nothing for balance
--or--
(b) this discussion is over because he obviously only wants to remove the penalty for the one race that he personally wants to play

[cobaltstarfire]

There were glasses in 3.x for light sensitive monsters, they cost 10 gp, or had a DC 15 crafting check, and a -2 to spot and search. Although light sensitivity wasn't as bad in 3.x, your monster is just dazzled easily and takes a -1 on attack/spot/search


I probably wouldn't object to giving a 3.x halfling a +2 str glasses for 10gp, as long as they had a draw back just like the sunglasses for light sensitive monsters.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm still waiting for him to flat out tell me that either:
(a) He would sell my 3.x 1st level halfling an item for 10gp which adds +2 Str and makes me medium
--or--
(b) He would not sell me such an item
--in which case--
(a) This discussion is over because he obviously cares nothing for balance
--or--
(b) this discussion is over because he obviously only wants to remove the penalty for the one race that he personally wants to play

I do care for balance. its just that I find your focusing on entirely the wrong thing to be balancing. Race has little to do the power of the classes, the true imbalance in the game. your complaining about a minor problem compared to what wizards can do with ANY race. solve that first, THEN we will talk balance, until then you have no room to complain about balance in anything, if you cannot even see how badly the Fighter and Wizard are imbalanced.

but yes, I would sell you it, only if your character concept reasonably allows for it. but you have no ground to stand on balance-wise if you think you can get away with talking about balance in something that has little influence over a character compared to what influences the entire game- the classes- and still divides the characters into tiers. much bigger problem balance-wise to be worried about.

[rlc]

I'm still waiting for him to flat out tell me that either:
(a) He would sell my 3.x 1st level halfling an item for 10gp which adds +2 Str and makes me medium
--or--
(b) He would not sell me such an item
--in which case--
(a) This discussion is over because he obviously cares nothing for balance
--or--
(b) this discussion is over because he obviously only wants to remove the penalty for the one race that he personally wants to play

hook your halfling up with magic stilts.
for pocket change.

[illyrus]

Sunscreen really shouldn't be something terribly complex to make, some alchemist can probably sell me a week's worth for 10 gold. I can finally play that sunbathing Vampire I always wanted to now.

Advantage and disadvantage are going to be thrown around a lot this edition. That enemy wizard under blur you're fighting in the sun, the drow and human have the same chance to hit him. More likely with a party with some decent buffs (whether actual spells or abilities) it is going to simply work out for the drow not to be getting advantage in a battle at high noon. Also for some classes it is a non issue even for duels at high noon. A drow sorcerer would just default to using acid splash over fire bolt etc.

[1337 b4k4]

Nope. thats not a drow. don't tell me that one elf is another. don't insult me by saying that I only care about the stats, the stats have nothing to do with this. its the fact that its the option labeled drow, and that its option I find interesting. trying to play a drow while the option labeled "wood elf" is like trying to play a wizard using a rogue. its just wrong.

and


That isn't a problem solved if the person wants to play a drow for RP reasons.

You know, I get this I really do. Labels and words have to mean something and when you want to play X or Y then thats what you want to play. On the other hand, this leads to the following question:

If you want to play a drow, and the a drow is defined (in part) by sensitivity to sunlight and the mechanical effects thereof, then why are you asking to play a character that isn't a drow?

If your character does not suffer from sunlight sensitivity and the mechanical effects of that sensitivity then your character is no more a drow than a dwarf who is 10 feet tall is a dwarf or a tiefling who has no horns or tail is a tiefling. After all, labels have meanings. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind DMs should work with players to enable character concepts (though frankly I don't think sending your players on a quest for an item that permanently alters a race feature or drawback is that restrictive), but if you're going to argue that the integrity of the label "drow" is important, and that playing a dark skinned, white haired high elf that likes living under ground isn't playing a drow, then you have to accept that playing a drow that doesn't have light sensitivity isn't playing one either. Unless the DM has specifically altered the world in question beyond the standard, it's playing something else, or it's playing an exception and exceptions should always come with considerations for that exception. D&D has always been a game about strongly typed packages, from classes to races (which remember were originally classes). There's nothing wrong with taking a package and modifying it, but it should be understood that thats what you're doing and those modifications should be made with an eye towards how the original package was built and what things were balanced against when that package was built.

[Totema]

Why is everyone mentioning lenses being needed for sunglasses? They absolutely aren't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_snow_goggles

Also, shutter shades! Because most Drow PCs are already massive douches, so they might as well look the part!

I can see it now: the party cleric is huddled in a corner, muttering prayers to his god to restore his spells, when in bursts a Drow forward scout! He obnoxiously shouts for all to hear, "Yo cleric, I'm real happy for you, Imma let you finish, but Lolth is one of the greatest goddesses of all time!"

[Lord Raziere]

it is a drow, they just have cool sunglasses on. a dwarf doesn't stop being a dwarf just because they have a wizard hat on. an elf doesn't stop being elf just because they put on a fake beard. a human doesn't stop being human, just because you give him the appropriate clothes to survive in extreme weather, or heck, put on an astronaut suit to go out into space.

I could see this uproar coming from magical cybernetic eyes, thats far too high-tech for this kind of setting and its stuck on there, but sunglasses? come on. making something to protect your eyes before going out into a world that hurts them is just a logical decision that shouldn't be subject to ridiculous quest nonsense, because thats like telling your player you have to go risk your life to get the materials needed to go on an arctic expedition, when that is just the basic part of preparation for such exploration- or would you make them risk their life to gather water into their waterskins before going into the desert? we're not talking about a magical item here, we're talking about basic necessities.

[archaeo]

it is a drow, they just have cool sunglasses on. a dwarf doesn't stop being a dwarf just because they have a wizard hat on. an elf doesn't stop being elf just because they put on a fake beard. a human doesn't stop being human, just because you give him the appropriate clothes to survive in extreme weather, or heck, put on an astronaut suit to go out into space.

I could see this uproar coming from magical cybernetic eyes, thats far too high-tech for this kind of setting and its stuck on there, but sunglasses? come on. making something to protect your eyes before going out into a world that hurts them is just a logical decision that shouldn't be subject to ridiculous quest nonsense, because thats like telling your player you have to go risk your life to get the materials needed to go on an arctic expedition, when that is just the basic part of preparation for such exploration- or would you make them risk their life to gather water into their waterskins before going into the desert? we're not talking about a magical item here, we're talking about basic necessities.

Has someone tried to explain it this way yet? So I'm playing a Gnomish Wizard in a party of Elves and Humans. Would it be fair to let my character easily purchase or start with a magical item that gives it an extra 5ft. of walking speed?

This is essentially what people are objecting to. Everything else -- the feasibility of sunglasses in a medieval setting, the relative cost, etc. -- is just rationalizing a way to make playing a drow require submitting to sunlight sensitivity. It's a gamist thing for sure. It's just a way of preserving a racial trait that the system gives you methods for overcoming regardless of class via your free spells instead of erasing that trait via a homebrewed item.

Frankly, I don't think D&D becomes absurdly unbalanced if you let a drow buy some cheap tinted shades. I also think the world of D&D is magical, drow are magical, and drow's sunlight sensitivity requires more to correct than a 10 gp pair of glasses can overcome. I would, however, definitely let you adventure to find a magical item that would do the trick.

Edit: Actually, I see that people have tried this line of argument and failed, as you perceive it to be an "unbalanced" thing far less damning that other aspects that you consider unbalanced. Welp. Suffice it to say that I basically agree with 1337 b4k4, who is as always totally reasonable on this: drow have sunlight sensitivity in the default 5e setting, and if you want to bypass that, you're in the realm of homebrew, meaning it's up to the DM whether or not to allow it.

[Shadow]

it is a drow, they just have cool sunglasses on. a dwarf doesn't stop being a dwarf just because they have a wizard hat on. an elf doesn't stop being elf just because they put on a fake beard. a human doesn't stop being human, just because you give him the appropriate clothes to survive in extreme weather, or heck, put on an astronaut suit to go out into space.

The difference is that the wizard hat, the fake beard and the cold weather clothes don't fundamentally change the characteristics of the race in question.
The way that you want to make the sunglasses work does exactly that.

And by the way, Totema, you're my new hero.

[cobaltstarfire]

If you want to play a drow, and the a drow is defined (in part) by sensitivity to sunlight and the mechanical effects thereof, then why are you asking to play a character that isn't a drow?



It's good to know that you apparently didn't read my post beyond the part you quoted . Since my solution would have a. taken a long time, and b. not been permanent in the case of the goggles (which would have come with disadvantages of their own both in RP situations and mechanically, and may be likely to be broken or stolen on top of that).

[rlc]

it is a drow, they just have cool sunglasses on. a dwarf doesn't stop being a dwarf just because they have a wizard hat on. an elf doesn't stop being elf just because they put on a fake beard. a human doesn't stop being human, just because you give him the appropriate clothes to survive in extreme weather, or heck, put on an astronaut suit to go out into space.

I could see this uproar coming from magical cybernetic eyes, thats far too high-tech for this kind of setting and its stuck on there, but sunglasses? come on. making something to protect your eyes before going out into a world that hurts them is just a logical decision that shouldn't be subject to ridiculous quest nonsense, because thats like telling your player you have to go risk your life to get the materials needed to go on an arctic expedition, when that is just the basic part of preparation for such exploration- or would you make them risk their life to gather water into their waterskins before going into the desert? we're not talking about a magical item here, we're talking about basic necessities.

see, that's the thing. you're going by "rule of cool" and anybody who has a slightly different argument than you is wrong. those other items don't change a major part of the race at all, but the sunglasses do. plus, what makes you think that they aren't magic items? non-magic sunglasses work for human eyes, but who's to say that they will work for drow eyes, since those are so different?

[Lord Raziere]

see, that's the thing. you're going by "rule of cool" and anybody who has a slightly different argument than you is wrong. those other items don't change a major part of the race at all, but the sunglasses do. plus, what makes you think that they aren't magic items? non-magic sunglasses work for human eyes, but who's to say that they will work for drow eyes, since those are so different?

did I anywhere say "rule of cool"? no. I did not. to get protection for your eyes is merely logical. if I wanted to go by rule of cool, I do go with:

The Drow stares at the sun right in its face- glaring at it with his all his fury and desire to be free. and the sun in response, shirks and cowers, in response to that fearsome glare, the light lets up upon his eyes, and he walks forevermore across the surface, free of its stinging glare, the sun itself afraid to anger him.

that? that is pure rule of cool, but that is more worthy of a mythical kind of game.

[rlc]

it is a drow, they just have cool sunglasses on.
You basically did right here.

[Lord Raziere]

You basically did right here.

Nope. the fact that sunglasses are cool have nothing to do with how completely logical it is put them on when it is sunny. you gotta protect your eyes. basic necessity. otherwise, as a DM, I'm stuck with a Drow player who keeps screwing up in combat because of some stupid light sensitivity, which drags the game down, and I can't have that.

and I just told you when I'm actually using rule of cool, just showed you a prime example, please don't ignore it.

[rlc]

Ignoring something and dismissing it aren't the same thing, but either way, you're not going to listen to reason and this bickering is getting old.

[1337 b4k4]

it is a drow, they just have cool sunglasses on. a dwarf doesn't stop being a dwarf just because they have a wizard hat on. an elf doesn't stop being elf just because they put on a fake beard. a human doesn't stop being human, just because you give him the appropriate clothes to survive in extreme weather, or heck, put on an astronaut suit to go out into space.

But on the other hand, if we're playing in a world wherein going out into space as species X without the requisite survival suit is intended to be deadly or at the very least inconvenient, then giving a player for free (or essentially no cost) the option to be species X and survive in space without the survival suit is making a fundamental alteration to the considerations behind the choice of species X vs another species. It's like playing a Star Trek RPG, wanting to play a Jem'Hadar and wanting to skip or bypass the whole ketracel-white addiction. It's possible and even cannon, but it's also a fundamental change from part of what makes a Jem'Hadar what it is.



I could see this uproar coming from magical cybernetic eyes, thats far too high-tech for this kind of setting and its stuck on there, but sunglasses? come on. making something to protect your eyes before going out into a world that hurts them is just a logical decision that shouldn't be subject to ridiculous quest nonsense, because thats like telling your player you have to go risk your life to get the materials needed to go on an arctic expedition, when that is just the basic part of preparation for such exploration- or would you make them risk their life to gather water into their waterskins before going into the desert? we're not talking about a magical item here, we're talking about basic necessities.

The functional difference between sunglasses that completely remove a racial trait, magical eyes and cybernetic eyes is simply degrees of suspension of disbelief. If you can see an argument for not having magical or cybernetic eyes to accomplish the same task you should be able to see the same argument for not having sunglasses.

I would also like to mention, having had the unfortunate experience with some ocular problems recently, that light sensitivity may be helped, but it is not at all eliminated by sunglasses. In my case, the days when my eyes became sensitive to light, I was able to go out in the light, but after about 10 minutes, it would bother my eyes so much I couldn't keep them properly open or focused, even on overcast days. Sunglasses did allow me to function better, but even then, every day activities like driving a car was much more of a challenge, let alone trying to engage in combat. And I'm a human adapted to surface levels of sunlight. This experience makes me skeptical to the idea that a simple pair of low tech sunglasses analogs are going to do much for mitigating the consequences of inborn racial light sensitivity, hence the preference for a quest for a solution.


It's good to know that you apparently didn't read my post beyond the part you quoted . Since my solution would have a. taken a long time, and b. not been permanent in the case of the goggles (which would have come with disadvantages of their own both in RP situations and mechanically, and may be likely to be broken or stolen on top of that).

I did actually read your post, but the remainder of your post (what you would do as a DM in this scenario) was not relevant to the point I was trying to make. A player who wants to play a Drow for roll playing reasons should want to play a Drow, with all that entails, not an elf with darker skin and white hair. And a player who wants to play a Drow that deviates from the Drow standard (especially when said deviation could otherwise be handled by playing an elf with darker skin and white hair) should have a reason for that deviation that amounts to more than "it's inconvenient" and a solution thats more involved than a ZZ Top song. Especially when, if "cheap sunglasses" were all it took to eliminate this racial trait, one would have expected all the Drow to be equipped with these cheap sunglasses and begun their surface world invasion by now. Your proposal is one such idea, a Drow seeking to change themselves and seeking a balm and a cure for this "curse" over time is one way to handle this deviation.

As I've said, theres nothing wrong with wanting to do something different, and there's nothing wrong with doing different. I'm just pointing out that this is a rule change as much as any other more "serious" change and should be given the same due consideration that you would if you were considering a wizard that didn't lose spell slots, or a fighter who didn't need armor to get a 20 AC. What that "due consideration" requires is dependent on your table and may be nothing more than "yeah that sounds like fun". But equally just because "due consideration" is being given, that doesn't mean your DM is, to use Raiziere's words:


detail-controlling DM central. apparently NO ONE can handle a little thing like sunglasses existing in a fantasy world. OH NO. PEOPLE HAVE SUNGLASSES ON TO PROTECT THEIR EYES. MY FANTASY WORLD OF ANACHRONISTIC TECHNOLOGY AND MAGICAL ELVES IS RUINED FOREVER!

[cobaltstarfire]

This experience makes me skeptical to the idea that a simple pair of low tech sunglasses analogs are going to do much for mitigating the consequences of inborn racial light sensitivity, hence the preference for a quest for a solution.


This is true, I don't think typical sunglasses are going to help a drow.

I imagine in some ways the sun to drow is a lot like an open welding/cutting flame to us. It burns/induces headaches, and leaves shining bright white spots in your vision for minutes after just a split second of exposure.

Of course that's why I think a pair of old fashioned welders goggles would probably be adequate...although how far they could see would be seriously reduced, and they'd have no pereferal vision.

I answered what I would do as a DM since well, the title of the thread has "DM Help" in it....And I can't remember the OP very well after slogging through 5 pages of people arguing why it's wrong to do it entirely. (maybe I should go reread the op :smalltongue:) If the person wants help, they aren't here to be told not to do it, they're here to try to work something out for their players.

That said, I look forward to when they release rules to turn monsters into races, cause then I get to try to figure out a way to play a Kobold in 5e without being a total drag on the party the whole way through (if that means slowly gathering up materials/connections/research to get some special goggles or something crafted in downtime, so be it), it'll be a fun . A -1 in 3.5 isn't nearly as painful as disadvantage in 5e I think so I have more incentive to actually build the trait into my character and then spend a few levels trying to find a way to mitigate it.

[Lord Raziere]

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[rlc]

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i would do that. it makes perfect sense to have to buy something that costs money, or find something that doesn't. if that makes me a jerk in your eyes, i'm fine with that.
though, it would make sense for a component pouch to have some stuff in it already.

[pwykersotz]

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See, on the one hand I agree with you. Let players play, let them have fun. Sunglasses may be anachronistic, but they aren't exactly important.

What is important, however, is not trivializing swaths of the game for no cost. That is, unless the DM is willing to deal with the consequences. You see, I support the Sunglasses for Drow initiative. I think it makes sense. I don't think it should remove their mechanical restriction of daylight blindness.

There are lots of people who do these modifications all the time. Free feat at level 1. Free cantrip for each player. Roll 4d6 and drop the lowest 7 times, then drop the lowest total. All races can plane shift if they meditate uninterrupted for 3d4 hours. And that's fine, that's great, but it changes the game drastically. But now consider what you're doing. You aren't saying 'players' or 'the world' get this advantage, you're saying a single race gets it. Probably just one player. Suddenly you have the balance skewed because you're giving favors to one race over another. The same would be true of class changes.

Ink is easy to make, why not let the Wizard scribe for copper instead of gold? Rangers beast companions aren't that powerful, why not let them act as they did in 3.5? Monks capstone should be increased to 1 Ki generated per round (max 8). These modifications change things, and they do it in a way that twists the way the world is set up. Sometimes its favorable. Sometimes not. But treating it as an unimportant change is a mistake in my opinion.

You're not being a jerk if players have consequences for their choices. The game is only a game if there are consequences. Sometimes we see things differently than the designers, and it's always okay to change things to suit your table. But most people on the forums react poorly if you just come out and say that an uncontroversial balance point has just been skewed for no apparent reason.

[1337 b4k4]

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You don't, you just have to be aware of and accepting of the consequences of the things you change. Reducing the removal of a racial trait to the purchase of a dollar store childs toy has consequences. They may not be ones you're concerned with but they are consequences none the less. If you're cool with Drow being able to handle daylight just fine as long as they find 10gp and a local store, more power to you. Seriously, no sarcasm, go for it. But, given that the OP was looking for help in the matter, one can assume they aren't quite comfortable with the "eh, screw it" approach to DMing and reducing system imposed penalties. And that's perfectly cool too. I find myself wondering why you seem to think that everyone who wants to play the game differently from you is doing so because they're malicious and trying to prevent their players from having fun. Believe it or not, some players enjoy coming up with new balances to account for the changes they want to make. Any time I've asked my DM to alter something I found inconvenient or not to my liking, I always had alternative penalties to take their place ready as suggestions. It's not that myDM was a jerk or that I'm masochistic, it's that I think design decisions are often made for a reason and I feel it's only fair that removing a penalty from my choices in one area is met with a new penalty in another area.


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Yes you could. Of course that wouldn't be the world posited by the core rules of D&D, just as Drow that easily operate in daylight wouldn't be, but it would certainly be an interesting world. It's also worth noting that some of the things you mentioned were implemented in some form or another (and in some cases to a lesser degree) in earlier D&D as balancing mechanics on the wizard (for example, you didn't get spells for free, your intelligence actually affected how many spells you could learn and know and included affecting your ability to read and write. Spell books cost money, and replacing a lost spell book was done at a cost of a thousand GP per level per spell. Spell books only had 100 pages, and required 1 page per level per spell meaning if you were somehow collecting all the spells every you would need to tote 6 spell books (and these were big heavy books) around to carry all of your spells. And spells (your core class mechanic) could only be obtained by adventuring, you didn't get spells for free when you leveled up (unless you were a cleric)



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Again I have to ask why you're assuming that people who don't play the game the way you do are somehow not "nice guys"

[BRKNdevil]

I honestly don't get whats wrong with taking something like Sundark Goggles from Races of the Dragon splat book of 3.5 and transferring it to 5e but instead it just does a disadvantage to your perception checks and passive perception

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please keep it civil in here.

[Jane_Doe]

Honestly, without the availability of something like these proposed sunglasses, I think it would be quite rude of me to create a Drow character in a normal party, and would most likely choose a different race even if I really, really wanted to be a Drow. It's simply selfish to take a significant circumstantial drawback that you can expect to encounter relatively frequently, and you've no simple means of overcoming it (casting Darkness has enough issues that it's not really a solution, in my opinion).

The Sunlight Sensitivity can still be readily modeled by other penalties (such as the drawbacks proposed in the OP) to preserve the flavor, without making it such that I feel I'm carrying a "I don't care about the rest of you" sign every time it comes up.

It is, I suppose, reasonable to suggest that players shouldn't choose races whose natural activity cycle would be in direct conflict with the rest of the party, in the same way that the party generally shouldn't have characters of dramatically different alignment in it... But at the same time, as DM, I really wouldn't be comfortable telling a player that they should just design a different character over something like this, which telling them "You should be raiding at night anyways" feels like it amounts to.

[illyrus]

Honestly, without the availability of something like these proposed sunglasses, I think it would be quite rude of me to create a Drow character in a normal party, and would most likely choose a different race even if I really, really wanted to be a Drow. It's simply selfish to take a significant circumstantial drawback that you can expect to encounter relatively frequently, and you've no simple means of overcoming it (casting Darkness has enough issues that it's not really a solution, in my opinion).

It seems like a lot more of a problem on paper than actual play.
- If the enemy has any sort of disadvantage it can put as a part of defense then you're in the same boat as everyone else
- If you're playing a caster you can probably switch to a spell that requires them to roll a save

And you're in an excellent position for dungeon crawls in that you see and attack things far outside of their range to see you making you an ideal scout and sniper. There should be quite a few cases where you get a round or two of attacks before they even have the ability to effectively respond. The 2-3 races that don't have access to darkvision really drag the party down in this environment as they walk around with a neon sign saying "adventurers coming your way" in the form of torches etc.

Probably not the best choice to play a drow paladin mechanically, then again a human thief rogue isn't a great choice either with their torch in hand, saying "I'm inconspicuous".

[rlc]

to be fair, op said that he was dm, so all of his adventures can be at night/in the forest/in a dungeon/on a cloudy day/whatever

[Confusion567]

Well this thread is different than it was the last time I looked at it. I'm not going to use quotes, cause there's a lot of stuff, but I'd like to respond to some of the general notions and opinions in the thread. Obviously, most of my points apply only to my own game, and I completely agree that a player coming to a DM requesting to ignore negative racial traits is a different animal than a DM making decisions about the world. However, as a DM I like my decisions about the world to be balanced (I'm not going to give halflings laser vision or allow clerics unlimited spell slots), which is why I humbly asked the opinion of this community.

First of all, there was never a motivation of special snowflakeness or power playing by anybody. I created a world which, for unrelated reasons (I have no affection for Drizzt and detest Drizzt-clones), had surface drow. Then, when I mentioned to players that drow were a real option in this game (rather than being always evil or a Lone Outcast), several of them looked at the race and were turned off by the sunlight sensitivity, deeming it not worth the other benefits. Then, when I looked at the race more carefully, I couldn't see why there was a such a harsh penalty for what seemed like an otherwise nearly-balanced race (hence my first question, "Is sunlight sensitivity really as bad as I think it is", which has been hotly debated).

Second, I'm not interested in simply making everybody drow, or flatly erasing racial traits. I agree with everyone who has said that racial traits exist for a reason, both flavorfully and mechanically, and I don't want to simply get rid of them. However, it seems like SS is difficult to offset by RAW*, and they are only a little stronger than other races with SS removed**, so I'm asking the wise residents of this forum if there's a balanced way to offset it. Not remove it entirely, just push it closer to balanced so that drow are as appealing to players as other PC races.

That said, I am the dungeon master, and I have the power to make things happen and no motivation to power-game it. Drow society exists on the surface in my world, so I'm going to rule that they developed an equivalent of snow-goggles, which can be made relatively cheaply once the technology is developed. These will remove the attack roll disadvantage. However, the decreased field of vision means that the perception disadvantage remains, and in addition, they gain disadvantage on dexterity saves or any checks involving vision while wearing them. They also lose darkvision completely while the goggles are equipped, with maybe an adjustment period of a short rest.

Does this seem like a balanced and fair addition to a game world? I don't want drow to be simply more powerful than all the other races, but I also don't want them to be simply weaker, or much weaker half the time and much stronger half the time.


*Obviously hotly debated, here are the arguments I've pulled:
If either you or your target are in direct sunlight, you get disadvantage on attack rolls. This can be offset several ways, as pointed out in this thread:

The battle can take place on a cloudy day, under a forest canopy, or indoors. Counter: this relies on DM aid, and I like battles to happen in a variety of locales.
Wear a big hat. Counter: does not work unless target is also not in direct sunlight (though "put a hat on the bear" is my favorite example of a dysfunctional rule so far).
Get advantage some other way to negate your disadvantage. Counter: this means you have to do something that would normally give you a large bonus and use it just to stay even. It also means that rogues fighting during the day (which, again, is more DM choice than player choice) cannot rely on being hidden to get sneak attacks, as their advantage is negated. This also applies to using the drow faerie fire spell (which is limited to 1/day, and only against targets who fail a dex save).
If the enemy gives disadvantage to incoming attacks anyway, the drow and the fighter are on equal footing. Counter: this is true, but that's also a DM issue, and it seems that the players should be working to negate the source of disadvantage. Also, I have no idea how common that actually will be in a game.
Use the drow's darkness spell. Counter: this does not work as well as you want it to. Drow darkvision does not pierce magical darkness, which means simply dragging everybody into the same disadvantage (including your allies, if they or your enemies are within 15 feet of you). Even if you gain the ability to see in magical darkness (by being a warlock, say), if the target is still in sunlight the disadvantage persists. Also, it only works once a day and requires concentration.
Duck inside. Counter: This is my favorite one, as it rewards clever play rather than just punishing racial choice. However, it still requires certain kinds of terrain present (more DM reliance), and doesn't function if your enemy stays outside (and just throws fireballs inside, for example).



**Obviously also hotly debated, here are the arguments I've pulled:
Compared to high elves, Drow have the same basic elven advantages (Dex, trance, sleep & charm); they get a bonus to the most useful mental stat as opposed to the least useful; their weapon specializations are better, since they're dex-based; more darkvision; more spells (and better stat for spellcasting), but they don't get to choose their cantrip; and sunlight sensitivity.
The basic elf package is a wash for comparison. I think the weapons are (mechanically) irrelevant, as well, since any class that uses weapons has access to the weapons they want (wizards don't need hand crossbows or rapiers, rogues and fighters already have them) or nearest equivalents. Charisma is useful more often than Intelligence, but only marginally, and one point is only marginal; definitely an advantage for drow, but a small one. More darkvision is nice, but rarely do you run into enemies in the dark who sit between 120 and 60 feet; again, small advantage for drow, but only small. Finally, most importantly, the spells.

All three drow spells require concentration, meaning they cannot be used simultaneously. Dancing lights saves on torches, or projects torches where you can't reach, not to mention shenanigans with glowing humanoid form, but has many drawbacks: concentration, requires actions to move, arguably can't travel more than 120 feet from where you originally cast them (open to DM interpretation whether "within range" is determined when cast or updates as the caster moves), and a pretty small light radius. Pure utility, and minor. Faerie fire is very strong, though it also requires concentration and enemies get a dex save against it (many spells have saves, but you're likely not focusing on charisma unless you're already a caster). That said, it does give all your allies advantage on all attacks for the duration, and serves to offset your SS; noticeably useful.
Finally, darkness. I said most of my opinions above, but basically it's a kind of useful power that isn't broken unless you're a warlock and can take it anyway, and even so it's 1/day and requires concentration.

This is compared to high elves, which get any wizard cantrip they want, albeit based off of intelligence. This means that depending on build, they can choose between various attack spells (ray of frost, acid splash, shocking grasp, poison spray, fire bolt), combat bonuses (true strike, very strong for rogues), or utility powers (minor illusion, friends, or even dancing lights). I would say that having that level of choice is even with the drow's more powerful but more limited selection.

Consequently, I'd say that drow without sunlight sensitivity are slightly more powerful than high elves, but only slightly. Since SS is so powerful, this dips them down to noticeably weaker overall. A comparison to tieflings yields similar results (drow have similar spell lists, similar but slightly better ability scores, better darkvision, resistance to some status effects, a few flavor details like weapon proficiencies, but no resistance to a very common damage type).

My overall conclusion is that drow are a touch overpowered without SS, but SS drags them down too low. That's what I suspected coming into this thread, so now I just want to find ways to balance it.

[Shadow]

Does this seem like a balanced and fair addition to a game world? I don't want drow to be simply more powerful than all the other races, but I also don't want them to be simply weaker, or much weaker half the time and much stronger half the time.

My overall conclusion is that drow are a touch overpowered without SS, but SS drags them down too low. That's what I suspected coming into this thread, so now I just want to find ways to balance it.

Your proposed changes sound reasonable and balanced for the society which you present.

[Corinath]

Use the drow's darkness spell. Counter: this does not work as well as you want it to. Drow darkvision does not pierce magical darkness, which means simply dragging everybody into the same disadvantage (including your allies, if they or your enemies are within 15 feet of you). Even if you gain the ability to see in magical darkness (by being a warlock, say), if the target is still in sunlight the disadvantage persists. Also, it only works once a day and requires concentration.


I agree with Shadow as well. If the Drow in your world have developed surface colonies, then it's not unreasonable to say they developed "snow goggles", or invented some other type of adaptation to suit them. It'd even be reasonable to design a PC character who wants to take these inventions to the next level in a way that's both logical and negates some of the penalties you propose to the goggles, so long as it's a part of their story.

I do want to point out, however, that you're only slightly mislead about Darkness. Darkness as a spell works as a sort of "anti-light", which, if cast on an object, can be negated by covering said object with a tarp. If a character was inventive enough, they could invent an item similar to a lamp with a cover, and simply throw the cover on to get rid of darkness, or they could create a small slit in said tarp, effectively making a "darkness flashlight".

But the most important thing here that I wanted to point out, is that you aren't dragging your entire party down with you. By RAW, you have advantage rolls on an enemy who cannot see you. And, by RAW, if there are advantages and disadvantages to a roll, regardless of how many of which, you roll die normally.

Ergo, if your Drow has two choices with regard to using darkness or not. Attack an enemy without it, and keep the disadvantage. Or attack an enemy with it, granting an additional advantage and disadvantage via vision obscurity (They can't see you. Advantage. You can't see it. Disadvantage), but since you do get 1 advantage vs your 2 disadvantages, you roll your attack normally.

Ergo, Darkness causes the Drow to attack as normal, as respective advantages and disadvantages disqualify each other.

[Jane_Doe]

It seems like a lot more of a problem on paper than actual play.
- If the enemy has any sort of disadvantage it can put as a part of defense then you're in the same boat as everyone else
- If you're playing a caster you can probably switch to a spell that requires them to roll a save

And you're in an excellent position for dungeon crawls in that you see and attack things far outside of their range to see you making you an ideal scout and sniper. There should be quite a few cases where you get a round or two of attacks before they even have the ability to effectively respond. The 2-3 races that don't have access to darkvision really drag the party down in this environment as they walk around with a neon sign saying "adventurers coming your way" in the form of torches etc.

Probably not the best choice to play a drow paladin mechanically, then again a human thief rogue isn't a great choice either with their torch in hand, saying "I'm inconspicuous".

If it is perceived by the prospective Drow player as being a significant problem, when it is a minor problem, then there are few repercussions to replacing the drawback with one of similarly minor impact (such as a penalty to perception and initiative when in sunny places), while it reassures the player that their party won't have to work overly hard to accommodate their roleplaying decision.

If it is a key balancing feature of an otherwise mechanically superior race (as some have argued), then it is a significant drawback in campaigns that may experience a significant amount of time in sunny conditions*, and players should just play a Tiefling or High Elf to avoid disrupting play with problems that only apply to them. In which case, if someone really wants to play a Drow for RP reasons, it's perfectly reasonable to rebalance the race by trading away the Sunlight Sensitivity for the Darkvision.

In either case, the problem ("I want to play x race, but I'm concerned it could easily be disruptive to the party") is resolved in a decisive manner, rather than being treated as a nonissue ("It's really not that bad, if you play intelligently" "Great, but I'm still going to worry about it...") or the Sword of Damocles ("Yeah, but I'm not going to put you in the sun that often - only when I want it to be particularly challenging for the party" "...Great."). This presumably provides player with the greatest satisfaction (by allowing them to best fulfill their desired character concept) while minimizing disruption to your game (by preserving the balance of the game by retaining meaningful penalties to a powerful racial type).

Of course, the player could be receptive to explanations of how it's not really that severe a drawback, and be satisfied with playing the race as-is. But I, personally, would still be hesitant, and if a player wanting to play a Drow before our conversation ended up choosing a Tiefling when I declined to adjust the sunlight penalty, I would be concerned that they felt that I was pushing them away from their initial character concept.



*"But how often are the characters going to be in the sun?" is a perfectly fair question - that the players have very little way of knowing beforehand. Long campaigns often go in strange directions by the end, so even the DM might not expect beforehand that the final chapter will take place at an archeological dig in the desert. Since people tend to be more adverse to penalties than attracted to rewards, this will tend to loom in the player's mind more often than the more likely "what if we spend 90% of the game in dungeons, where my darkvision will be useful?".