Throwing Weapons Through Walls

[AvatarVecna]

I'm putting together a gestalt weapon throwing build; I'm trying to use the Brilliant Weapon enchantment to throw weapons through walls at enemies. Double prestige is allowed, and PF material is allowed on a case-by-case basis. Things I'm considering:

-Bloodstorm Blade 4
-Master Thrower 5
-Tempest 5
-Hulking Hurler 3
-Exotic Weapon Master 3

I'm thinking the spiked chain is the best weapon to throw for this purpose, because Brilliant Energy only affects the fighting part of the weapon, and the spiked chain is all fighting parts, so the whole weapon can go through the wall; if this isn't right, what would work?

On a related note, is there an easy way for such a character to see through or around barriers in such a way that they could target creatures elsewhere in a building (such as the Ring of X-ray Vision, only with better range)?

[Piggy Knowles]

Earth Dreamer's earth sight ability works for stone or earth walls, but that requires four levels. Share Husk or Chain of Eyes alongside an unobtrusive ally could work. Chain of Eyes works with any living creature and is low enough level to be easily UMD'd off a wand. Clairvoyance might work as well.

[Rubik]

Ghost touch weapons count as incorporeal whenever it's beneficial, such as when you're ignoring someone's armor and shield or stabbing through a wall. And it's not even limited to striking surfaces. Heck, such a weapon can count as both material and incorporeal at the same time, for different purposes.

Even better, a lesser truedeath crystal, since it's considerably cheaper and can be upgraded nicely.

Burrowing Power'd Touchsight to "see" through walls, maybe? You project a telekinetic field that passes through solid objects to see through them.

Telepathy + Mindsight works, too, since that's not blocked by lack of LoE.

[Piggy Knowles]

Ghost touch weapons count as incorporeal whenever it's beneficial, such as when you're ignoring someone's armor and shield or stabbing through a wall. And it's not even limited to striking surfaces. Heck, such a weapon can count as both material and incorporeal at the same time, for different purposes.

Even better, a lesser truedeath crystal, since it's considerably cheaper and can be upgraded nicely.

Burrowing Power'd Touchsight to "see" through walls, maybe? You project a telekinetic field that passes through solid objects to see through them.

Telepathy + Mindsight works, too, since that's not blocked by lack of LoE.

Mindsight explicitly does not grant LoS, which is required for ranged attacks.

A ghost touch weapon can be worn by an incorporeal creature while that creature moves through a solid surface, but nothing says you can use it to strike through solid surfaces itself. That's a reasonable extrapolation, I guess, but it's not RAW.

[Rubik]

Mindsight explicitly does not grant LoS, which is required for ranged attacks.Nope! You can totally attack any creature you want, even without line of sight. You have to guess which space they're in (easy, with mindsight), and you suffer a miss chance (negated by the Seeking property), but you aren't prevented from attacking something you can't see, even with ranged.


A ghost touch weapon can be worn by an incorporeal creature while that creature moves through a solid surface, but nothing says you can use it to strike through solid surfaces itself. That's a reasonable extrapolation, I guess, but it's not RAW."A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder."

If the wielder wants to throw a ghost touch weapon through a corporeal object, the most beneficial state between corporeal and incorporeal is incorporeal, because it passes through the object. If the wielder wants to strike a corporeal creature, the most beneficial state for the weapon is corporeal. If the wielder wants to strike a corporeal creature through a corporeal object, the best state is incorporeal (to pass through the object) and then corporeal (to strike the creature).

All are allowed by the wording of the weapon ability.

Otherwise, wielding a ghost touch weapon would be useless against foes not of your state, because a corporeal creature can't (normally) wield an incorporeal weapon, and incorporeal creatures can't (normally) wield a corporeal weapon. So the weapon must exist in both states at the same time at some point or other.

[Piggy Knowles]

Nope! You can totally attack any creature you want, even without line of sight. You have to guess which space they're in (easy, with mindsight), and you suffer a miss chance (negated by the Seeking property), but you aren't prevented from attacking something you can't see, even with ranged.

No, this one is pretty clear cut, per the Attack (Ranged) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#rangedAttacks) entry in the SRD/PHB:


With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight.

In this instance, you don't even have line of sight to that opponent's square, so you couldn't attack the square for the 50% chance of hitting him.


"A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder."

This one is less clear cut. Sorry, I checked the SRD before responding earlier, but I accidentally looked at the ghost touch armor property, not the weapon property.

I still don't think it's quite as rock solid a case as you are making - nothing there says that it can count as a corporeal or incorporeal weapon simultaneously, although I suppose with a thrown weapon it doesn't strictly have to. But yeah, that last line means that under a permissive DM, you can have the weapon corporeal while you are wielding it, incorporeal as it passes through the wall, and corporeal again when it strikes the enemy.

[Rubik]

No, this one is pretty clear cut, per the Attack (Ranged) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#rangedAttacks) entry in the SRD/PHB:

In this instance, you don't even have line of sight to that opponent's square, so you couldn't attack the square for the 50% chance of hitting him.You can't attack them directly, but note the following:

"Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."

So yes, like I said, you can indirectly attack an opponent (assuming you know where it is, granted by Mindsight), and suffer a miss chance (negated by Seeking).


This one is less clear cut. Sorry, I checked the SRD before responding earlier, but I accidentally looked at the ghost touch armor property, not the weapon property.

I still don't think it's quite as rock solid a case as you are making - nothing there says that it can count as a corporeal or incorporeal weapon simultaneously, although I suppose with a thrown weapon it doesn't strictly have to. But yeah, that last line means that under a permissive DM, you can have the weapon corporeal while you are wielding it, incorporeal as it passes through the wall, and corporeal again when it strikes the enemy.It has to be that way; otherwise, you couldn't attack an incorporeal target as a corporeal attacker, or vice-versa. Nor could you hide underground and attack from hiding.

[Piggy Knowles]

You can't attack them directly, but note the following:

"Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."

Except that you don't have line of sight to that square, either. If it was the case of an invisible opponent whose square you could see, there might be an argument to be made. But nothing in the above rule gets rid of the specific restriction that, when making a ranged attack, you must have line of sight to your target. It sucks - it's one of the many ways ranged weapons got the shaft in 3.5 as compared to melee. But it's there.


It has to be that way; otherwise, you couldn't attack an incorporeal target as a corporeal attacker, or vice-versa. Nor could you hide underground and attack from hiding.

......except for the bit that specifically says you can? You're treating the last line as the bulk of the rules text. Ghost Touch specifically says that it works against incorporeal foes, also that a manifesting ghost can wield it against a corporeal foe. Those are things specifically allowed for in the ability description.

[Rubik]

Except that you don't have line of sight to that square, either. If it was the case of an invisible opponent whose square you could see, there might be an argument to be made. But nothing in the above rule gets rid of the specific restriction that, when making a ranged attack, you must have line of sight to your target. It sucks - it's one of the many ways ranged weapons got the shaft in 3.5 as compared to melee. But it's there.So an Obscuring Mist cast by a level 1 wizard can totally castrate an epic archer dual-wielding ballistas? I suppose the missiles just bounce off or something.

Huh.


......except for the bit that specifically says you can? You're treating the last line as the bulk of the rules text. Ghost Touch specifically says that it works against incorporeal foes, also that a manifesting ghost can wield it against a corporeal foe. Those are things specifically allowed for in the ability description.And again, the most beneficial way to attack someone through a wall is for the weapon to become incorporeal as it passes through.

Though I guess you're right; anything blocking LoS, including, say, a stretched-out bedsheet, means you can't even attempt to make an attack using a ranged weapon against it.

You're probably better off using a Burrowing Crystal Shard or something, anyway.

Though if you had an Enlarged Burrowing Power'd Touchsight, LoS wouldn't be a problem.

How about the Chain of Eyes spell? So long as LoS isn't broken, LoE shouldn't be a problem.

[Piggy Knowles]

So an Obscuring Mist cast by a level 1 wizard can totally castrate an epic archer dual-wielding ballistas? I suppose the missiles just bounce off or something.

Huh.

Assuming the uber-archer doesn't have blindsight or something similar to grant LoS, correct. It also stops an epic uber-charger from charging you, and an epic wizard who for some ungodly reason doesn't have blindsight from targeting you with a targeted spell, as all of these things require line of sight.

Stupid? Probably. But them's the breaks.


And again, the most beneficial way to attack someone through a wall is for the weapon to become incorporeal as it passes through.

I'm not sure why we're arguing about this; as I said above, by RAW it works with thrown weapons (ie, the topic at hand) regardless, so it's a moot point.


Though I guess you're right; anything blocking LoS, including, say, a stretched-out bedsheet, means you can't even attempt to make an attack using a ranged weapon against it.

Stupidly, yes. Said stretched-out bedsheet would also stop a charger, since if you don't have LoS to your opponent at the beginning of your turn, you can't charge. Yes, I'm aware that any sensical DM would probably say you can just charge through the bedsheet, but that's not what the rules allow.


You're probably better off using a Burrowing Crystal Shard or something, anyway.

Though if you had an Enlarged Burrowing Power'd Touchsight, LoS wouldn't be a problem.

How about the Chain of Eyes spell? So long as LoS isn't broken, LoE shouldn't be a problem.

These are all options that should work - I even mentioned Chain of Eyes upthread.