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LostDeviljho
2014-09-08, 03:20 PM
Hi there. this is my first time trying to create a playable race, but I'm fairly sure I did something wrong. Problem is, I have no idea what I did wrong. So i brought it here for all of you to pick apart. Your advice would be really helpful. Thanks in advance.


•+2 strength, +2 wisdom, -2 charisma

•Monstrous Humanoid

•Medium: As Medium creatures, lucario have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

•A lucario has a base move speed of 30 ft.

•Darkvision 60 ft.

•Low-Light Vision

•Aura Sense: A lucario can sense the aura of any creature with a charisma score within 100 ft., giving the precise location. This is not a constant effect, and the lucario must actively pay attention to it's aura sense to use this ability. Checking it's aura sense is an at will free action with a duration of concentration. in addition, a lucario can focus on a single individual and make a DC 10 Sense Motive check to determine the subject's Age, Gender, Race, and Type (as well as Subtype, if it has one), it can make a DC 15 check to duplicate the effect of Detect Thoughts on that subject alone, a DC 20 check reveals Name, Class, and Alignment, and a DC 25 check reveals all Ability Scores, Special Abilities, Special Qualities, and any spells prepared (or number and level of remaining spell slots for spontaneous casters). A lucario can also focus on a single opponent and make a DC 12 Sense Motive check. If the lucario meets this check, it gains a +1 Insight bonus (this bonus increases by one for every 2 points the lucario exceeds the check by) the following round to either AC against that opponent, or to all attack rolls against that opponent during said round. A lucario cannot determine the positions of opponents when focusing on a single foe.

•A lucario gains Unarmed Strike progression as a monk of it's level -2.

•Metal Claw (Ex): 4/day, a Lucario gains two Primary claw attacks which deal damage equal to it's Unarmed Strike damage, and are treated as Adamantine for the purposes of overcoming DR and hardness.

•Aura Sphere (Su): 3/day a lucario can launch an Aura Sphere.

Range: 100 ft.

Duration: Instantaneous

A sphere of glowing blue energy comes into being before the lucario, it channels energy into it, causing it to pulse and blaze with power.
When it has poured enough energy into the sphere, it sends it flying into it's foes.
This attack creates a sphere of concentrated aura energy that blasts an opponent.

The attack's strength depends on the amount of time the lucario spends channeling energy into it.
If it uses this attack as a swift action, it deals 1d4 points of force damage per two initiator levels (maximum 10d4) against a single target of it's choice.
If it uses this attack as a standard action, it deals 1d6 points of force damage per lnitiator level (maximum 10d6) to a single target, and half damage to all creatures in a 5-foot-radius of the target.
If it uses this attack as a full-round action, it deals 1d8 points of force damage per initiator level (maximum 10d8) to a single target, and half damage all creatures in a 10-foot-radius of the target.
If it spends 2 rounds charging this attack, it deals 1d10 points of force damage per initiator level (maximum 10d10) to a single target, and half damage to all creatures in a 15-foot-radius of the target.

The lucario does not need to declare ahead of time how long it wants to spend charging the Aura Sphere.
When it begins charging the sphere, it decides when it has finished charging after the appropriate time has passed.

An Aura Sphere does not require an attack roll, it always hits. However, in can be blocked by Total Cover or a spell such as Wall of Force (a Wall of Force shatters when struck by an Aura Sphere), or counterspelled.
Creatures other than the main target are entitled to a Reflex save to negate damage (DC 10+1/2 HD+Wisdom modifier)

•Extremespeed (Ex): 3/day a lucario can use Extremespeed. Extremespeed can be used several different ways:

◦A use can be spent while rolling initiative to move up one space in the initiative order.

◦A use can be spent at the beginning of a round to take the user's turn first, out of the initiative order.

◦A use can be spent on the users turn, as a Move action, to move up to 3x the users move speed, and at the end of this movement make an attack against one opponent within reach. If, at the end of this movement, the user moved at least 10 ft. in a straight line directly toward an opponent and ended next to it, that opponent takes damage as if struck by an object of the user's weight falling a distance equal to the distance travelled in a straight line.

•Force Palm (Su): The lucario makes an Unarmed Strike against the opponent's Touch AC. If the attack hits it deals double damage, with the additional damage dealt as force damage. Force Palm pushes any creature less than two sizes larger than the lucario back 5 ft. Creatures who do not make a successful Fortitude save (DC 6+1/2 HD+Wisdom modifier) are dazed for one round.

•Lucario gain a +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks

•Automatic Languages: Lucarian (dialect of Gnoll, if you're not using dialects, they speack gnoll), Common

•Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.

•Favored Class: Fighter, Monk, Swordsage

•LA +1



most lucario are standard colored (mostly blue, with tan torso and black highlights. first one from the left.), however, 1 in 5 lucario will are oddly colored. the recorded color deviations are shown below.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081214170104/ssb/images/b/bf/Alt-lucario.jpg

qazzquimby
2014-09-08, 06:46 PM
May I suggest making a racial class? It's all neat stuff, but it's too much to pack into a race, and LA is no fun. It's too much for La1 right now, I think.

Aura Sense is a lot like mind sight, which is very strong. It cancels all stealth, just as one if it's functions, and does a lot else on top. Making it concentration helps a little, but it's still too strong. I'd rather see it delayed on put into a progression that removed though.

With the x/day abilities, this isn't a problem if you don't mind it, but I personally find things feel more realistic and fun if they're at will, with some other draw back to compensate. Perhaps a charge time with aura sphere, and just delaying metal claws before giving it at will.

I'd make force palm a fort save to resist dazing, generally 10+1/2level+relevant mod, which I believe is successful about 50% of the time in an even fight. If you want 30%, just make it 6+1/2lvl+mod. I'd also make the knockback either on creatures one size smaller rather than two, or effect anyone who failed the save, just so it will come up more often.

Maybe add the ability to use an extremespeed to move half move speed as an immediate action.

Making it a racial class would actually give you even more space, if you wanted to keep converting abilities.

Milo v3
2014-09-08, 09:18 PM
May I suggest making a racial class? It's all neat stuff, but it's too much to pack into a race, and LA is no fun. It's too much for La1 right now, I think.

^ This.

You've placed a large amount of rather powerful abilities, even a few that scale, as a race. This does make it sort of hard to judge the LA, but it definitely isn't LA +1.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-08, 10:59 PM
May I suggest making a racial class? It's all neat stuff, but it's too much to pack into a race, and LA is no fun. It's too much for La1 right now, I think.

small problem in that i have no idea what a racial class is.

EDIT: looked it up. you are referring to racial paragon classes i assume? that actually is a really good idea, and fits well with some ideas i had for racial variants.


I'd also make the knockback either on creatures one size smaller rather than two, or effect anyone who failed the save, just so it will come up more often.

Maybe add the ability to use an extremespeed to move half move speed as an immediate action.

actually, the knockback was supposed to effect creatures one size larger and and anything smaller, but i was having trouble with my wording and i just made it worse with a typo.

as for the extremespeed, i considered that as one of the options, but was worried about makeing the entrys too long after seeing how much space aura sphere took. (btw, if anyone is interested, aura sphere is actually based on the channelled pyroburst spell from the PHB2)

Milo v3
2014-09-08, 11:10 PM
small problem in that i have no idea what a racial class is.

EDIT: looked it up. you are referring to racial paragon classes i assume? that actually is a really good idea, and fits well with some ideas i had for racial variants.

Unless I am misunderstanding qazz, he is meaning a class that grants you the abilities of the race slowly as you take. Though, iirc... they might be called Monster Classes rather than Racial. Examples of these classes can be found in Savage Species and Libris Mortis.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-08, 11:18 PM
Unless I am misunderstanding qazz, he is meaning a class that grants you the abilities of the race slowly as you take. Though, iirc... they might be called Monster Classes rather than Racial. Examples of these classes can be found in Savage Species and Libris Mortis.

could you name one? i'm not seeing them.

Milo v3
2014-09-08, 11:30 PM
could you name one? i'm not seeing them.

Savage Species has a chapter called Monster Classes, and an Appendix full of sample monster classes from Air Elementals and Aranea to Vrocks and Water Elementals.

Libris Mortis has monster classes for undead on pages 33-40.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-08, 11:38 PM
hmmmm, interesting... i'll work on this tomorrow. thanks for the advice.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 12:03 AM
I'm agreeing that this race is definitely worth more than +1 LA. Some thoughts:

The Aura Sense alone is pretty dang powerful; it stops invisibility/stealth dead in their tracks, for one, and also allows thought reading and a way of determining a creature's SAs and SQs that isn't HD-dependent (unlike Knowledge checks). I would very strongly recommend removing it entirely; it's too powerful and would be much too hard to adjudicate. If you want an aura sense-like ability, give them an at-will ability that detects the strength of magical and/or alignment auras, but not the exact nature. For example, a Lucario would be able to tell a Paladin apart from a Commoner because of their differing aura strengths, but they wouldn't be able to tell a Paladin of Freedom apart from a Paladin of Tyranny. Similarly, they would be able to tell if an item/creature was magically enhanced, and get an estimate of the CL of the magical effect(s) on it, but wouldn't be able to tell what school the spell effect came from.

I have never seen both darkvision and low-light vision on the same character, and the way they interact is kinda weird. I'd recommend just giving them low-light vision.

Free unarmed strike progression as a monk (minus 2 levels) is likewise very strong; it's like giving Superior Unarmed Strike *and* Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) for free. Maybe just give them Improved Unarmed Strike and have their unarmed strikes deal a base of 1d4 damage (either lethal or nonlethal, their choice). If they have monk levels they strike as a monk of 2 levels higher.

Metal claw is a little vague and 4/day is kind of weird, so here's a recommended revision:

Metal Claw (Su): Three times per day, a Lucario may as a swift action transform their hands into strange metallic claws. They can make two primary claw attacks, and may also use the claws as secondary weapons in conjunction with other natural and/or manufactured weapons. These claws deal damage equal to the Lucario's unarmed strike damage, and count as adamantine for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This effect lasts until the beginning of the Lucario's next turn.

Aura sphere is again much too strong of an ability. Suggested change:

Aura Sphere (Sp): Three times per day, a Lucario may cast magic missile as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to 2/3 their character level, rounded up. This ability normally requires a standard action to use; however, a Lucario may spend additional time preparing the attack to increase its effect. If the ability is used as a full-round action, it instead emulates an Empowered magic missile, and if a full-round action and a standard action are expended (the Lucario begins activating the effect at the start of one turn and finishes activating it as a standard action at the start of their next turn; they cannot take actions of any sort, such as attacks of opportunity, between these two turns), the effect instead emulates a Twinned Empowered magic missile.

Extreme Speed doesn't seem overly powerful, but is a little confusing. The only aspect I don't like is the third one, the supercharge. Making it a move action means it's disproportionally powerful next to the other two abilities; I think it should be a full-round action that allows a charge at up to 3*land speed, ignoring difficult terrain, and the attack at the end deals an extra 1d6 damage for every full 20 feet traveled (changed from 1d6/10 ft. to avoid massive levels of Pounce abuse). Suggested rewording:

Extreme Speed (Ex): Three times per day, a Lucario can put on a burst on inhuman agility and speed. This can manifest in one of three ways:
1. Immediately after rolling initiative to determine their place in the turn order of a combat, the Lucario may expend one use of their Extreme Speed as a free action to change their initiative count such that it is equal to the next highest initiative count +1 (effectively moving them up one place in the initiative order). This ability may be used while the Lucario is flat-footed.
2. At the beginning of a combat round, one use of Extreme Speed may be expended as a free action to allow the Lucario to take their turn first that round. They still only have one turn that round, and they act on their normal initiative count in subsequent rounds. In effect, this moves them to the top of the initiative order for the duration of one round. This ability may not be used while the Lucario is flat-footed.
3. As a full-round action, a Lucario may expend one use of Extreme Speed to charge at up to three times their land speed and ignore difficult terrain (but not impassable terrain such as walls). They must otherwise meet all the requirements for a normal charge action (must move at least 10 feet, must move in a straight line along the shortest path to their target, etc), and take all the normal bonuses and penalties associated with charging (usually +2 attack and -2 AC). If they do so, any attack(s) they make at the end of the charge against the charged for deal an extra 1d6 damage for every full 20 feet traveled by the Lucario.

Force palm is broken. Either "doesn't work" broken, or "no DM in their right minds would ever allow this" broken. No uses/day limit, no action required to activate, so all of your unarmed attacks are at double damage and deal force damage in addition to bludgeoning. Ouch. I'll suggest a revision:

Force Palm (Su): Three times per day, a Lucario may make a force palm attack as a standard action. This attack is resolved as a melee touch attack, and deals damage equal to twice the Lucario's normal unarmed strike damage. Half of this damage is bludgeoning damage, but the other half is force damage. If the attack hits, the Lucario can then make an immediate bull rush attempt against the same target as a free action, with a +8 bonus on the check. A Lucario cannot push a target back more than 10 feet in this way, but regardless of how far the opponent is pushed back the Lucario does not need to exit his own space if he does not want to. A foe who is successfully moved back 5 or more feet with this ability must also make a Fortitude save (DC 6+1/2 of the Lucario's class level+Lucario's Wisdom modifier) or they are dazed for one round.

Removing/nerfing the Aura Sense, making the unarmed strike a little less out-of-control, weakening the Aura Sphere's damage output (seriously? That much damage with neither attack roll nor save allowed?), taking the charge version of Extreme Speed down a notch or two, and clarifying how often Force Palm can be used should make this class either a strong LA+1 or a slightly weak LA+2. Also, change the type to Humanoid. Monstrous Humanoids are immune to Charm Person, Dominate Person, Hold Person, and lots of other effects.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 01:10 AM
The Aura Sense alone is pretty dang powerful; it stops invisibility/stealth dead in their tracks, for one, and also allows thought reading and a way of determining a creature's SAs and SQs that isn't HD-dependent (unlike Knowledge checks). I would very strongly recommend removing it entirely; it's too powerful and would be much too hard to adjudicate. If you want an aura sense-like ability, give them an at-will ability that detects the strength of magical and/or alignment auras, but not the exact nature. For example, a Lucario would be able to tell a Paladin apart from a Commoner because of their differing aura strengths, but they wouldn't be able to tell a Paladin of Freedom apart from a Paladin of Tyranny. Similarly, they would be able to tell if an item/creature was magically enhanced, and get an estimate of the CL of the magical effect(s) on it, but wouldn't be able to tell what school the spell effect came from.

aura sense is actually the first thing i came up with, and i put ALOT of thought into it, so i don't want to remove it entirely. and your suggestion about it just doesn't fit what lucario have been demonstrated to be capable of. a completely blind lucario can use it's aura sense to see. by studying a persons aura, a lucario can gain massive amounts of imformation about the subject. and by focusing on a persons aura, a lucario can gain a limited amount of precognition as to thier actions. I tried to portray this as faithfully as possible while still being slightly reasonable. i know aura sense is incredibly powerful, and it's one of the main reasons i put this up here, but it is one of the lucario's biggest, if not THE biggest, defining characteristics, and removing it or nerfing it that much just seems wrong to me.


I have never seen both darkvision and low-light vision on the same character, and the way they interact is kinda weird. I'd recommend just giving them low-light vision.

Dragons. But you're right, just low light vision aught to do it.


Free unarmed strike progression as a monk (minus 2 levels) is likewise very strong; it's like giving Superior Unarmed Strike *and* Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) for free. Maybe just give them Improved Unarmed Strike and have their unarmed strikes deal a base of 1d4 damage (either lethal or nonlethal, their choice). If they have monk levels they strike as a monk of 2 levels higher.

i actually have a very poor knowledge of feats, even the basic ones, your suggestion might be good, but i honestly have no idea.


Metal claw is a little vague and 4/day is kind of weird, so here's a recommended revision:

Metal Claw (Su): Three times per day, a Lucario may as a swift action transform their hands into strange metallic claws. They can make two primary claw attacks, and may also use the claws as secondary weapons in conjunction with other natural and/or manufactured weapons. These claws deal damage equal to the Lucario's unarmed strike damage, and count as adamantine for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This effect lasts until the beginning of the Lucario's next turn.

your fluff doesn't really match the whole spirit of the metal claw move (keep in mind that lucario is a pokemon, and that these are pokemon moves), and the big thing with metal claw is that i bypasses hardness as adamantine, rather than just DR. there are plenty of spells and feats that can give that.


Aura sphere is again much too strong of an ability. Suggested change:

Aura Sphere (Sp): Three times per day, a Lucario may cast magic missile as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to 2/3 their character level, rounded up. This ability normally requires a standard action to use; however, a Lucario may spend additional time preparing the attack to increase its effect. If the ability is used as a full-round action, it instead emulates an Empowered magic missile, and if a full-round action and a standard action are expended (the Lucario begins activating the effect at the start of one turn and finishes activating it as a standard action at the start of their next turn; they cannot take actions of any sort, such as attacks of opportunity, between these two turns), the effect instead emulates a Twinned Empowered magic missile.

aura sphere is the second big reason i put this up for y'all to look at.
it's basically a lucario's signature move, and i tried to do it justice.
i took alot of inspiration from the Super Smash Bros. Brawl lucario's aura sphere, and Channelled Pyroburst seemed to fit it pretty well. i just changed the damage type, switched caster level for initiator level, and added the no miss property from the original pokemon move. i could probably give it a reflex save for half damage like pyroburst, or just have it ignore miss chance and treat the target as flat footed. it is very explicitly a single attack, magic missile fires multiple bolts, rather than a single sphere.


Extreme Speed doesn't seem overly powerful, but is a little confusing. The only aspect I don't like is the third one, the supercharge. Making it a move action means it's disproportionally powerful next to the other two abilities; I think it should be a full-round action that allows a charge at up to 3*land speed, ignoring difficult terrain, and the attack at the end deals an extra 1d6 damage for every full 20 feet traveled (changed from 1d6/10 ft. to avoid massive levels of Pounce abuse). Suggested rewording:

Extreme Speed (Ex): Three times per day, a Lucario can put on a burst on inhuman agility and speed. This can manifest in one of three ways:
1. Immediately after rolling initiative to determine their place in the turn order of a combat, the Lucario may expend one use of their Extreme Speed as a free action to change their initiative count such that it is equal to the next highest initiative count +1 (effectively moving them up one place in the initiative order). This ability may be used while the Lucario is flat-footed.
2. At the beginning of a combat round, one use of Extreme Speed may be expended as a free action to allow the Lucario to take their turn first that round. They still only have one turn that round, and they act on their normal initiative count in subsequent rounds. In effect, this moves them to the top of the initiative order for the duration of one round. This ability may not be used while the Lucario is flat-footed.
3. As a full-round action, a Lucario may expend one use of Extreme Speed to charge at up to three times their land speed and ignore difficult terrain (but not impassable terrain such as walls). They must otherwise meet all the requirements for a normal charge action (must move at least 10 feet, must move in a straight line along the shortest path to their target, etc), and take all the normal bonuses and penalties associated with charging (usually +2 attack and -2 AC). If they do so, any attack(s) they make at the end of the charge against the charged for deal an extra 1d6 damage for every full 20 feet traveled by the Lucario.

actually, when using extremespeed to move in a straight line, the user is basically falling sideways, which is why it must be linear movement at the very end, directly toward the opponent, and must end next to them. also, that particular use of extremespeed was originally a quick action, but i changed it to a move action in an effort to balance it. you don't think it's enough?


Force palm is broken. Either "doesn't work" broken, or "no DM in their right minds would ever allow this" broken. No uses/day limit, no action required to activate, so all of your unarmed attacks are at double damage and deal force damage in addition to bludgeoning. Ouch. I'll suggest a revision:

Force Palm (Su): Three times per day, a Lucario may make a force palm attack as a standard action. This attack is resolved as a melee touch attack, and deals damage equal to twice the Lucario's normal unarmed strike damage. Half of this damage is bludgeoning damage, but the other half is force damage. If the attack hits, the Lucario can then make an immediate bull rush attempt against the same target as a free action, with a +8 bonus on the check. A Lucario cannot push a target back more than 10 feet in this way, but regardless of how far the opponent is pushed back the Lucario does not need to exit his own space if he does not want to. A foe who is successfully moved back 5 or more feet with this ability must also make a Fortitude save (DC 6+1/2 of the Lucario's class level+Lucario's Wisdom modifier) or they are dazed for one round.

oooh! *winces*
major oversight there, sorry.
force palm was meant to be an attack action, 4/day. as for you revision, it looks like it's basically saying what i intended, except that the knockback is a set 5 feet. (hmmm, maybe that's why lucario fight on the edges of cliffs so much.)


Also, change the type to Humanoid. Monstrous Humanoids are immune to Charm Person, Dominate Person, Hold Person, and lots of other effects.

problem is Humanoids always have a subtype, and i didn't really see one that fit. i don't really feel comfortable making whole types and subtypes yet.

Milo v3
2014-09-09, 01:53 AM
aura sense is actually the first thing i came up with, and i put ALOT of thought into it, so i don't want to remove it entirely. and your suggestion about it just doesn't fit what lucario have been demonstrated to be capable of. a completely blind lucario can use it's aura sense to see. by studying a persons aura, a lucario can gain massive amounts of imformation about the subject. and by focusing on a persons aura, a lucario can gain a limited amount of precognition as to thier actions. I tried to portray this as faithfully as possible while still being slightly reasonable. i know aura sense is incredibly powerful, and it's one of the main reasons i put this up here, but it is one of the lucario's biggest, if not THE biggest, defining characteristics, and removing it or nerfing it that much just seems wrong to me.
It isn't really that reasonable though, it's the strongest sense in the game + tonnes of detect spells thrown on top. Also, I'm pretty sure lucario could only detect alignment.... Which could be modeled by the Detect Alignment spell.


your fluff doesn't really match the whole spirit of the metal claw move (keep in mind that lucario is a pokemon, and that these are pokemon moves), and the big thing with metal claw is that i bypasses hardness as adamantine, rather than just DR. there are plenty of spells and feats that can give that.
None of that is part of the fluff of metal claw.... :smallconfused:

Metal claw would more accurately be represented as just giving them claw attacks.... And then if you want to be super accurate, give them a +1 racial bonus to attack and damage rolls until the end of the encounter if they successfully damage a creature with their claw attack or something.


i took alot of inspiration from the Super Smash Bros. Brawl lucario's aura sphere, and Channelled Pyroburst seemed to fit it pretty well. i just changed the damage type, switched caster level for initiator level, and added the no miss property from the original pokemon move. i could probably give it a reflex save for half damage like pyroburst, or just have it ignore miss chance and treat the target as flat footed. it is very explicitly a single attack, magic missile fires multiple bolts, rather than a single sphere.
Taking a 4th level spell and making it better generally isn't the best thing to give to a low-level race. Let alone give it three times.


actually, when using extremespeed to move in a straight line, the user is basically falling sideways, which is why it must be linear movement at the very end, directly toward the opponent, and must end next to them. also, that particular use of extremespeed was originally a quick action, but i changed it to a move action in an effort to balance it. you don't think it's enough?
What does falling have to do with the move extreme speed?
Just give lucario a +10 ft. bonus to base land speed when charging or bullrushing.


problem is Humanoids always have a subtype, and i didn't really see one that fit. i don't really feel comfortable making whole types and subtypes yet.
Just give them the Pokemon or Lucario subtype....

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 02:17 AM
okay, so aura sense and aura sphere are abominations unto all that is balanced.

actually, here's an alternative to aura sense i was thinking about for a racial variant.

Aura Boost

for every HD worth of damage the lucario takes, the power of all it's attacks is increased by 10%.

this is based off of lucario's ability in Smash Bros.

as for aura sphere, maybe i'l change it to an Orb of Force with the no miss property slapped on.

Milo v3
2014-09-09, 02:29 AM
Aura Boost

for every HD worth of damage the lucario takes, the power of all it's attacks is increased by 10%.

How does 10% work in a 3.x game? Also, if your hit and take less than your HD in damage then your enemies are ridiculously underpowered....


as for aura sphere, maybe i'l change it to an Orb of Force with the no miss property slapped on.

So... magic missle with a caster level of 1.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 02:48 AM
How does 10% work in a 3.x game? Also, if your hit and take less than your HD in damage then your enemies are ridiculously underpowered....

um, playable race. HD are determined by class level.
what do you think he's playing? a wizard?
this ability was intended to synergize with barbarians at high levels.


So... magic missle with a caster level of 1.

10d6 force damage against touch ac is a first level magic missile?!

Milo v3
2014-09-09, 03:17 AM
um, playable race. HD are determined by class level.
what do you think he's playing? a wizard?
this ability was intended to synergize with barbarians at high levels.
A 20th level barbarian has 20 hit dice, so based on your wording it would be.... 20 damage. Same as a 20th level wizard.


10d6 force damage against touch ac is a first level magic missile?!

No.... Shooting a blast of force damage that doesn't miss is a first level magic missile. Also, Orb of Force doesn't deal 10d6 damage at first level either. :smallsigh:

Zaydos
2014-09-09, 03:25 AM
Wait wouldn't taking Orb of Force and throwing a no miss quality on it also be taking a 4th level spell and making it better?

Personally I'd say that a default lucario shouldn't actually have aura sphere or extreme speed, because they're attacks they learn at lv 37 and 55 respectively (in D/P/Pl). Even Aura Sight was presented as something that took training and gaining mastery for lucarios. Thus both fit better as something gained from some sort of Prestige Class (there are hints that even Ash and other humans could learn to use the Force Aura), Racial Paragon Levels, or some sort of Monster levels.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 03:32 AM
A 20th level barbarian has 20 hit dice, so based on your wording it would be.... 20 damage. Same as a 20th level wizard.

HD worth of damage. if he's a wizard he as d4. so if he takes 4 damage he gets a boost. a barbarian has a d12.


y'know, this whole thing was poorly thought out. to the scrap heap it goes!

Kamai
2014-09-09, 03:47 AM
I did not read through this too detailed the first time, but this is overkill for LA +1. If you'd be willing to let me try to tone this down some:

Lucario

Humanoid(Lucario, psionic)
+2 strength, +2 wisdom, -2 charisma
Medium: As Medium creatures, lucario have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
A lucario has a base move speed of 30 ft.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Low-Light Vision

Aura Sense: A Lucario can innately tell whether he is in danger by an intelligent creature. He is always under the effect of the Detect Hostile Intent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) Power, but gains no information on where the creature is unless you can also locate their square by other means. Lucario also gains Dodge as a bonus feat, even if he does not qualify.

Naturally Psionic: Lucarios gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This does not give them manifesting ability, but see Aura Sphere.

Aura Sphere: A Lucario can use Energy Ray as a Psionic Power, even if he has no classes that grant him a manifester level. His manifester level for this ability is equal to his Hit Dice, even from class levels. He can, instead of manifesting this power as a standard action, change the manifesting time to 1 round. If he does so, he can empower the casting, as per Empower Power, but this does not cost any extra power points or his psionic focus. If he changes the manifesting time to 2 rounds, the power is maximized, without costing extra power points or psionic focus.

Unarmed Combatant: He gains Improved Unarmed Strike, and his unarmed strikes do damage as a creature 1 size larger.

Extremespeed: A Lucario can gain the ability to spend 1 power point to gain +10ft base movement speed until the beginning of his next turn as a swift action. Instead, a Lucario can choose to gain Martial Study (Sudden Leap). This is a choice that must be made at character creation, and cannot be changed afterwards.

Force Palm: A Lucario can expend it's Psionic Focus whenever a unarmed strike or natural weapon confirms a critical hit to perform an immediate bull rush. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and he can replace his Strength Modifier with his Wisdom modifier for all checks. If you merely have your Psionic Focus, even if you expend it for this ability, half of the damage that you do on a confirmed critical is force damage. Creatures that are otherwise immune to critical hits take both effects of this ability if a critical hit confirms (but the damage is not increased by the critical multiplier).

Lucario gain a +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks

Automatic Languages: Lucarian (dialect of Gnoll, if you're not using dialects, they speak gnoll), Common

Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.

Favored Class: Monk, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage

From there, I'd want to go with feats to get some of your other capabilities, and maybe have other ones expressed through class choices, because even as in Pokemon, not every Lucario is going to have the same moves. For an LA+1, an ability like Aura Sphere should have some build requirement to scale, and not just automatically scale. I'm trying to keep nods towards Psychic Warrior or Swordsage, though Monks will like the ability to get Psionic feats and possibly Sudden Leap. I still think this is on the strong end of LA +1, but it could be argued to be fair.

As a thought on the Aura boost:
Aura Boost (Racial, Fighter, Psionic)
Requirements: Lucario, Endurance
If you are below your maximum HP, add your choice of your Wisdom Modifier or your Strength modifier to all damage rolls. If you are below 1/4 of your HP, also add the higher of your manifester level or your BAB to your damage rolls as well. If you are between 0 and -9 hp, you can keep acting as per Diehard, and your attacks and abilities do an extra 100% damage.

Special: This feat is treated as Diehard for all purposes, and can be taken instead of Diehard if a class gives it as a bonus feat.

Changelog: Removed Natural Weapon size increase from Extra Anchovies suggestion.

qazzquimby
2014-09-09, 09:34 AM
I'd just write a class and say it must be taken at level one, sets your race to Lucario with the following very basic traits, no abilities, and give everything else over the class levels. None of it neds to be toned down if its delayed. Aura sense is overpowered unitl later levels, but you could maybe make it work only on creatures the Lucario could naturally see if they made a spot/search check.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 01:01 PM
Kamai, I second most of your suggestions. However there is one thing I object to:


Unarmed Combatant: He gains Improved Unarmed Strike, and his unarmed strikes do damage as a creature 1 size larger. If he gains a natural weapon from any source, it also does damage as a creature 1 size larger.

Emphasis mine. This makes them very, very good Totemists. Too good, in my opinion. Also, it doesn't make sense that his unarmed combat abilities would extend to weapons he gained via polymorph/alter self.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 01:24 PM
I'd just write a class and say it must be taken at level one, sets your race to Lucario with the following very basic traits, no abilities, and give everything else over the class levels. None of it neds to be toned down if its delayed. Aura sense is overpowered unitl later levels, but you could maybe make it work only on creatures the Lucario could naturally see if they made a spot/search check.

the last time i attempted to make a class it was an unholy mess, so i'm kinda worried about how it would turn out.

the general consensus here is that aura sense needs to be nerfed asap.
what would you guys think of putting a cap on the insight bonus to AC/attack, and limiting the divination to type, gender, alignment.
if i delay it via class like quazz is suggesting, how long should i delay?

EDIT: the last time i tried to make a class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359637-3-5e-Class-The-Vicious-Savage-(P-E-A-C-H-))

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 01:45 PM
If you're making a monster class, it doesn't need to be a full 20 levels and in fact should not be. If you make a monster class for Lucario, it should either be (in my opinion) 4 levels/2 HD or 6 levels/3 HD, with a gradual progression of its racial abilities.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 01:54 PM
i was gonna make it 6 levels long so a lucario martial adept would still be able to get 9th level maneuvers (in case you hadn't guessed they were supposed to make good swordsages). i just wondered how far to delay it, or maybe split it's abilities up and spread them over the progression.

not sure what you mean by levels/HD. if you're suggesting racial HD, im trying to avoid that. LA can be bought off, HD can't.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 02:08 PM
i was gonna make it 6 levels long so a lucario martial adept would still be able to get 9th level maneuvers (in case you hadn't guessed they were supposed to make good swordsages). i just wondered how far to delay it, or maybe split it's abilities up and spread them over the progression.

not sure what you mean by levels/HD. if you're suggesting racial HD, im trying to avoid that. LA can be bought off, HD can't.

What I meant is that over the course of 6 levels they'd end up with 4 HD. Monster classes aren't a way to avoid LA/RHD, they're just a nicer way to fit them into the game than just plopping it all in wholesale. It takes all of a monster's ability score adjustments, SAs/SQs, and HD, and spreads them out over the course of (HD+LA) levels.

For example, the Centaur is a 4-HD creature with LA +2. The Centaur monster class gives a hit die at levels 1, 2, 4, and 6, and gives some of the centaur's special abilities (speed, hoof attack, ability score increases) at each level. Monster classes allow someone to play a monster while still starting at level 1.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 03:16 PM
I'm working on the moster class for lucario, but in the meantime, check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371047-Infernape-(3-5-race)) out. I think it's alot more balanced.

EDIT: Made another one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371089-Metagross-(3-5-race))
EDITEDIT: and another one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371096-Sceptile-(3-5-race))

qazzquimby
2014-09-09, 05:45 PM
The class didn't look especially bad. I'm not even going to link to my earliest works :smalltongue:
I'm not sure making a monster class is needed here, since we aren't trying to convert a monster with insane ability scores and things. Just a class that specifies their race.
It would also be ok to go beyond 6 levels in the lucario class, because if they want 9th level maneuvers, they can drop out. If they want 9th level lucario madness they can stay in.
If you write a class and it's aweful I'll help you fix it.
I've been thinking of making direct pokemon to dnd conversions, the main problem being integrating pokemon stats into 3.5/p while keeping everything roughly as important as it was before. A lot of things are already done for me by PTA and PTU.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 05:50 PM
so what pokemon stat equates to what ability score?
one of the reasons i decided to make a lucario player race was there was less stuff to do.

that, and i'm currently trying to port the monsters from the Monster Hunter franchise to 3.5 and that's enough of a hassle as it is.

qazzquimby
2014-09-09, 10:01 PM
so what pokemon stat equates to what ability score?
Part of the puzzle would be keeping pokemon mechanics while balancing to 3.5/p, which I believe is achievable, with a calculator or spreadsheet.


one of the reasons i decided to make a lucario player race was there was less stuff to do.
That's a no fun reason.


that, and i'm currently trying to port the monsters from the Monster Hunter franchise to 3.5 and that's enough of a hassle as it is.
That's a fun reason. Monster building is hard, though. At least in my experience, classes are easier.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 10:05 PM
That's a fun reason. Monster building is hard, though. At least in my experience, classes are easier.

Very true. Unless the monster has some very clear special powers, it's all too easy to just make it a meatbag with a few natural attacks. And then you end up under-CR'ing it, and you get That Damn Crab...

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 10:19 PM
Very true. Unless the monster has some very clear special powers, it's all too easy to just make it a meatbag with a few natural attacks. And then you end up under-CR'ing it, and you get That Damn Crab...

that's one of the problems. alot of the time it's either super unique and hard to do, or there is a near identical analogue. Case in point: the Brachydios (http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Brachydios) (3 days of work) and the Azuros (http://monsterhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Arzuros)(basically a Dire Bear with better natural armor)

the other problem is the nature of the game itself. the trick to Monster Hunter is learning all the monsters behaviors and mannerisms, so you know when to dodge, when to block, when to attack, and when to get the hell outta dodge. that doesn't really convert well to d&d.

i made a thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358200-quot-Monster-Hunter-quot-3-5-monsters) it didn't last long.

Also, What is this crab people keep talking about?!

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 10:34 PM
the other problem is the nature of the game itself. the trick to Monster Hunter is learning all the monsters behaviors and mannerisms, so you know when to dodge, when to block, when to attack, and when to get the hell outta dodge. that doesn't really convert well to d&d.

Not statistically, no. I suppose if you were DMing an encounter with one you could have a set four- or five-round sequence of actions, and let the PCs learn the rhythm and thus figure out its weaknesses.


Also, What is this crab people keep talking about?!

It's from this web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a). Scroll down, it's the second entry. Seven hit dice for 66 hp, speed 40 feet, 2 claw attacks at +10 for 1d8+9 damage each. Also, if it hits with a claw it can immediately try to start a grapple (grapple bonus: +19), and if it succeeds it automatically deals an extra 1d8+9 damage from constriction on the same turn. It can then make another grapple check in each subsequent round to deal constrict damage again. Because of its two claws, it can be grappling two characters at once. It's also a vermin, so it's immune to mind-affecting stuff.

What CR is this thing? It's CR 3. It's called That Damn Crab because it's how your players will refer to it when they roll up their new characters. You can't out-tank it because it will grapple and subsequently destroy you, you can't outrun it, you can't win through rapid damage because it has more than enough hit points to survive a few rounds. You cannot defeat That Damn Crab. It is the prime example of everything that is wrong with CR and "level-appropriate encounters".

Kamai
2014-09-09, 10:40 PM
Kamai, I second most of your suggestions. However there is one thing I object to:



Emphasis mine. This makes them very, very good Totemists. Too good, in my opinion. Also, it doesn't make sense that his unarmed combat abilities would extend to weapons he gained via polymorph/alter self.

Yeah, maybe worth dumping. I kinda wanted to melt in the Metal Claw attempt into this, and give a bit of a bump of natural weapons given through Psychic Warrior, but I didn't even think about Polymorph.

Edit: If there's anything to remember with race making, you're not making THE Lucario (or any other specific pokemon), you are making a Lucario. A good race is going to have some tools to play with, but how they express the sum of their abilities isn't going to be the race, it's going to be whatever abilities they add on to make it their own. It's not that every Lucario needs to have an amazing aura sense, but a Lucario that picks up Divination spells/Clairsentience powers is going to have an amazing aura sense. Not every Lucario is going to be able to reliably dash everywhere, but a Tiger Claw Lucario/Movement focused Psychic Warrior will have fun with that. Not every Lucario is going to be able to tear through metal with his fists, but someone who focuses on that easily can.