Thoughts for a lvl 20 gestalt

[Buufreak]

Righto, so I have been throwing around a few ideas lately, and wanted to get the forums' thoughts on a gestalt build that has, at this point, got me wondering what can I do late game. So far, I have managed...

PoT 2/Fighter 2/Blackguard 2/Bone Knight 10//Sorcerer 5/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10

I fully understand that I am losing out on alot of amazing class abilities that the Ur-Priest gets, but other than that, what is the general thought?

I should also mention this one rides a good bit on using 3rd party Lost Tradition to switch divine casting to charisma.

[bekeleven]

Mystic Theurge is banned in gestalt. Lost Tradition is generally banned in games I know, because of its terrible balance, but if you have a GM letting you Ur-Priest/MT in gestalt balance is clearly not an issue.

[AvatarVecna]

Before I make any suggestions, I need to know a few things:

1) Is this intended to be a Cha-based gish?

2) What's the level limit? It looks like Gestalt 16.

3) How are you getting into Blackguard that early?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

PoT 2/Fighter 2/Blackguard 2/Bone Knight 10//Sorcerer 5/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10

There are so many problems with this...

Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Fighter 2 only has a +4 BAB, Blackguard requires a +6 BAB before you start taking it.

You cannot take two prestige class levels on a given character level, a gestalt character cannot combine two prestige classes into one level. AT 6th level you've got Blackguard//Ur-Priest, you can't do that. At 7th-16th level you've got Bone Knight//Mystic Theurge, you can't do that.

Dual-progression prestige classes, those that effectively advance the class features of two classes simultaneously, are not available to gestalt characters because you're already taking two classes at once. Mystic Theurge is specifically called out as being one such class that is definitely included in this prohibition.

Mystic Theurge//Bone Knight advances two divine casting classes, but you only have Ur-Priest casting. You had Blackguard spellcasting, but as soon as you take even a single level of Ur-Priest you lose all your other divine spellcasting forever.


There are ways of doing something like this without relying on 3rd party sources or breaking the rules. This character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342828-Damnable-PC-s-need-a-Blackguard-built-that-ll-teach-them-a-lesson!#6) is ECL 20 without being gestalt, or ECL 18 with LA buyoff. You could make it gestalt and add Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Spelldancer 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Sorcerer 7 and it would be an amazing, Cha-based build. What exactly do you want your build to do, other than casting both arcane and divine spells with ten Bone Knight levels? You could easily make it a Sorcerer 20// (Full BAB) 5/ Ur-Priest 1/ Bone Knight 10/ Anything 4.

[With a box]

you can't use ur-priest with blackguard
Blackguards are cast divine spell and ur-priest require that you must have no ability to cast divine spells.

[vhfforever]

So it seems like you’re going for a general save-killer / debuffer that can cast a lot of spells, and you have 16 levels to work with. My suggestion is going to try and work with this ‘theme’ while staying generally legal with typical gestalt rules.

Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion ACF) / Blackguard 3 / Bone Knight 6 // Sorcerer 16

This gets you 8th level Blackguard, 1st level Hexblade, and 16th level Sorcerer spells; Bone Weapon, and plenty of ways to reduce your foes saves while keeping itself legal on both sides of the Gestalt and not relying on a third party Feat.

[KingAtomsk]

you can't use ur-priest with blackguard
Blackguards are cast divine spell and ur-priest require that you must have no ability to cast divine spells.

Ur-Priest "Special" Pre-req reads: Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

Therefore if the blackguard forsakes his ability to cast as a Blackguard (maybe falls from his deity's favor), then he can become an Ur-Priest.

Also:

Mystic Theurge is banned in gestalt.

is false, because RAW from the SRD states: "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes"
(emphasis mine), and "should be prohibited" doesn't mean "banned," it means it's up to DM discretion.

[Buufreak]

There are so many problems with this...

Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Fighter 2 only has a +4 BAB, Blackguard requires a +6 BAB before you start taking it.

You cannot take two prestige class levels on a given character level, a gestalt character cannot combine two prestige classes into one level. AT 6th level you've got Blackguard//Ur-Priest, you can't do that. At 7th-16th level you've got Bone Knight//Mystic Theurge, you can't do that.

Dual-progression prestige classes, those that effectively advance the class features of two classes simultaneously, are not available to gestalt characters because you're already taking two classes at once. Mystic Theurge is specifically called out as being one such class that is definitely included in this prohibition.

Mystic Theurge//Bone Knight advances two divine casting classes, but you only have Ur-Priest casting. You had Blackguard spellcasting, but as soon as you take even a single level of Ur-Priest you lose all your other divine spellcasting forever.


There are ways of doing something like this without relying on 3rd party sources or breaking the rules. This character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342828-Damnable-PC-s-need-a-Blackguard-built-that-ll-teach-them-a-lesson!#6) is ECL 20 without being gestalt, or ECL 18 with LA buyoff. You could make it gestalt and add Sorcerer 5/ Mindbender 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Spelldancer 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Sorcerer 7 and it would be an amazing, Cha-based build. What exactly do you want your build to do, other than casting both arcane and divine spells with ten Bone Knight levels? You could easily make it a Sorcerer 20// (Full BAB) 5/ Ur-Priest 1/ Bone Knight 10/ Anything 4.

Okay, so I forgot the BAB needed for blackguard, so that one is my bad. Same with the rule stating no prestige on both sides at the same time. However, UA states that already existing theurge classes "should be prohibited," meaning its up to DM. Again, my bad for not stating sooner that we are playing at a bit of a fast and loose table, where theme and idea can sometimes overrule written rule, and ultimately rule 0 reigns.

The general theme of the character was something that just came to me, and it was going to be a melee/charisma focused hater of the gods, who after his natural eruption of arcane magic, he learns of means to steal power from the gods directly (Ur-Priest). The bone knight was a bit of filler, but I suppose for sake of HP and keeping prestige balance, I could use warblade instead.

Also, I could only come up with the first 16 levels of the build, and meant to put in x // y in my build, respectively. Sorry for any confusion, and thanks to all who suggested/helped!

[Rebel7284]

PoT 2-3/Hexblade 2-3 are often used to enter Ur Priest.

Duskblade 3 may be a useful dip for such a character to increase action economy.

If this character is starting at or near 20, Sublime Chord may be better than plain sorcerer for such a character.

A way to persist both arcane and divine spells would be nice if you want to avoid having a long buff routine. Incantatrix and Spelldancer are both good at that.

[AvatarVecna]

Race: Human

Class Lvl//Class Lvl (Important Feats):
Rogue 1//Human Paragon 1
Rogue 2//Paladin of Tyranny 1
Bard 1//Paladin of Tyranny 2 (Devoted Performer)
X//Fighter 1
X//Fighter 2
Ur-priest 1//Paladin of Tyranny 3 (Extend Spell)
Mindbender 1//Ranger 1
X//Spelldancer 1
Blackguard 1//Human Paragon 2 (Persistent Spell)
Blackguard 2//Human Paragon 3
Sublime Chord 1//Monk 1
Fochlucan Lyrist 1//Monk 2 (Ascetic Mage)
Fochlucan Lyrist 2//Y
Fochlucan Lyrist 3//Y
Fochlucan Lyrist 4//Y (Snowflake Wardance)
Fochlucan Lyrist 5//Y
Fochlucan Lyrist 6//Y
Fochlucan Lyrist 7//Y
Fochlucan Lyrist 8//Y
Fochlucan Lyrist 9//Y

Between the many skills points the Human Rogue gets, and the constant class skills that the Human Paragon gets, you can easily qualify for your large number of PrCs. Note that there are several empty levels: I suggest that either 1) X and Y are all sorcerer levels, or 2) X is Bard levels and Y is Warblade levels; Mindbender and Human Paragon advance the spellcasting of X. If you go the Bard/Warblade route, you'll have to convince your DM to allow Ascetic Mage to apply to bards, but from what I understand of your group, that shouldn't be too hard.

Build 1 gets Ur-priest 10 casting, Sublime Chord 10 casting, Sorcerer 14 casting, as many persisted spells as you want via Spelldancer, Cha to attack with limited use, Cha to AC, double Cha to saves, and Bard 13 bardic music.

Build 2 gets Ur-priest 10 casting, Sublime Chord 10 casting, Bard 7 casting, as many persisted spells as you want via Spelldancer, Cha to attack with limited use, Cha to AC, double Cha to saves, Bard 16 bardic music, Initiator lvl 14, and Warblade 8 maneuvers/class features.

Other than that, make sure you use variant rules to replace divine casting from all classes except Ur-priest. Have fun!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The general theme of the character was something that just came to me, and it was going to be a melee/charisma focused hater of the gods, who after his natural eruption of arcane magic, he learns of means to steal power from the gods directly (Ur-Priest). The bone knight was a bit of filler, but I suppose for sake of HP and keeping prestige balance, I could use warblade instead.

Also, I could only come up with the first 16 levels of the build, and meant to put in x // y in my build, respectively. Sorry for any confusion, and thanks to all who suggested/helped!

Check out the Athar in Dragon 287 p45, it's what the Planer Handbook's Defiant was based on, and it's even referenced in the lore. You need a +7 BAB, +3 base Will save, Kn: Religion 10 ranks, the ability to cast divine spells, and you must abandon worship of gods and refuse to acknowledge them as worthy of praise, giving up any divine abilities granted by deities. The class has a Cleric chassis for HD, BAB, saves, and skill points, and at its 3rd level you regain any divine spellcasting and abilities you lost when entering it, but they're now granted by the great unknown. It advances divine casting at the 3rd-10th levels, and it gives pretty much all the same class features as the Defiant gets and then some, but they're at slightly different levels. I would definitely consider integrating this into your build, as follows:

Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Hexblade 3/ Ur-Priest 2/ Athar 10/ Blackguard 3// Sorcerer 20. Each of your even-numbered Sorcerer levels grants a +1 BAB, so you have Sorcerer 6 with Ur-Priest 1 for +1 BAB, Sorcerer 7 with Ur-Priest 2 and get +1 BAB from Ur-Priest, Sorcerer 8 with Athar 1 and get +1 BAB from Sorcerer, etc. so this build gets +20 BAB at 20th level. You have at least a d8 HD every level, though you only ever get two base skill points per level.

[Buufreak]

Check out the Athar in Dragon 287 p45, it's what the Planer Handbook's Defiant was based on, and it's even referenced in the lore. You need a +7 BAB, +3 base Will save, Kn: Religion 10 ranks, the ability to cast divine spells, and you must abandon worship of gods and refuse to acknowledge them as worthy of praise, giving up any divine abilities granted by deities. The class has a Cleric chassis for HD, BAB, saves, and skill points, and at its 3rd level you regain any divine spellcasting and abilities you lost when entering it, but they're now granted by the great unknown. It advances divine casting at the 3rd-10th levels, and it gives pretty much all the same class features as the Defiant gets and then some, but they're at slightly different levels. I would definitely consider integrating this into your build, as follows:

Paladin of Tyranny 2/ Hexblade 3/ Ur-Priest 2/ Athar 10/ Blackguard 3// Sorcerer 20. Each of your even-numbered Sorcerer levels grants a +1 BAB, so you have Sorcerer 6 with Ur-Priest 1 for +1 BAB, Sorcerer 7 with Ur-Priest 2 and get +1 BAB from Ur-Priest, Sorcerer 8 with Athar 1 and get +1 BAB from Sorcerer, etc. so this build gets +20 BAB at 20th level. You have at least a d8 HD every level, though you only ever get two base skill points per level.

Biffoniacus, what would I do without you? Love the sound of every tick of that, will definitely crack open some old DragMag to fill in the rest. Thanks much, my man.

By the by, I am generally assuming this build is a must to roll with no armor, due to straight sorc.