Building a fantastic team player?

[Nettlekid]

A little while ago I was mulling over the idea of building Kamina from TTGL, and realized that apart from being a moderately capable melee combatant, pretty much his only skill is encouraging his teammates to be the best they can be. That's basically a lot of Bard and a little Marshal, or maybe a Bardblade/Bardsader. I'd now like to go even higher than that, and make a super buffer and/or healer whose buffs are all about positive reinforcement. Energy Immunity: Fire is "Don't let it worry you, the fire isn't that hot! Your spirit burns far hotter than that dragon's flame!" Neutralize Poison is "Come on, I know you can pull through! This isn't the thing that's going to keep you down!" That kind of thing.

So I'd love to have optimized Inspire Courage, and maybe a level of Marshal if possible since it really has that feel to it. I'm not sure if if I want to go caster, but I think I do for the buffs, which is sort of a pity because White Raven has a lot of cool rallying maneuvers, and "healing by encouragement" is the fluff and crunch of Devoted Spirit. On the caster side I'm imagining that Sublime Chord is the way to go, and I doubt I'd be able to fit in War Weaver. I know that not all of these things can be incorporated together, but I'd love to hear suggestions on how I can get as much of it as I can.

Incidentally, when the Warrior Skald grants all Bardic Music abilities, would that grant Inspire Courage +1 or +4?

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103789-Believe-in-me-who-believes-in-you!-PrC

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101008-Just-Who-The-Hell-Do-You-Think-We-Are!-Discipline

[Nettlekid]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103789-Believe-in-me-who-believes-in-you!-PrC

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101008-Just-Who-The-Hell-Do-You-Think-We-Are!-Discipline

I don't like Homebrew. The point was more the whole post, not just the first sentence which led to that post.

[Troacctid]

Bard 7/War Weaver 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 4? That would get you full Sublime Chord casting, all five levels of War Weaver, and a good selection of maneuvers, with a 6th level stance at the capstone.

[Cuthalion]

Or you could just make a cleric who dumps all his spells in buffs and healing...

[Red Fel]

A little while ago I was mulling over the idea of building Kamina from TTGL, and realized that apart from being a moderately capable melee combatant, pretty much his only skill is encouraging his teammates to be the best they can be. That's basically a lot of Bard and a little Marshal, or maybe a Bardblade/Bardsader. I'd now like to go even higher than that, and make a super buffer and/or healer whose buffs are all about positive reinforcement. Energy Immunity: Fire is "Don't let it worry you, the fire isn't that hot! Your spirit burns far hotter than that dragon's flame!" Neutralize Poison is "Come on, I know you can pull through! This isn't the thing that's going to keep you down!" That kind of thing.

So I'd love to have optimized Inspire Courage, and maybe a level of Marshal if possible since it really has that feel to it. I'm not sure if if I want to go caster, but I think I do for the buffs, which is sort of a pity because White Raven has a lot of cool rallying maneuvers, and "healing by encouragement" is the fluff and crunch of Devoted Spirit. On the caster side I'm imagining that Sublime Chord is the way to go, and I doubt I'd be able to fit in War Weaver. I know that not all of these things can be incorporated together, but I'd love to hear suggestions on how I can get as much of it as I can.

Incidentally, when the Warrior Skald grants all Bardic Music abilities, would that grant Inspire Courage +1 or +4?

Have you considered going Cleric/ Crusader/ Refluffed RKV? There are a number of proposals for alternate RKVs (this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?139711-ToB-Alternate-Vindicators) contains some favorites of mine), but even if you don't like homebrew, it shouldn't be too hard to do. The RKV gets you your maneuver progression, plus Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Stone Dragon maneuvers. (You don't need to use Shadow Hand if it doesn't fit your image.) It also gets you 8/10 casting progression, which means 8/10 levels of Cleric casting for some solid buffing ability.

Clerics have the potential to alternate readily between being frontline combatants and effective support/buff units. RKV's Divine Impetus, if read to activate as a free action, allows you an easy way to throw out swift actions on the fly. You could use buffs for that. Alternatively, Paladin with Battle Blessing accomplishes the same thing, with the added bonus of Aura of Courage.

[Nettlekid]

Bard 7/War Weaver 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 4? That would get you full Sublime Chord casting, all five levels of War Weaver, and a good selection of maneuvers, with a 6th level stance at the capstone.

That's a pretty good lineup. The only thing it's really lacking is the Inspire Courage element, which I know is hard to stick in there. That actually works really well. I was fiddling around with Mythic Exemplar trying to make the most of Inspire Courage progression and bumping up Marshal auras, but no, this looks like a really solid build. Especially with that Aura of Chaos option alongside all the lovely spells.

Does the Playground have any thoughts on the Warrior Skald and where it stands with Inspire Courage? If it can give you Inspire Courage +4 with a single dip, I'd be willing to mix things around for that, and maybe be a little cheesy with Sanctum Spell or Improved Sigil: Krau to get "3rd" level spells with less investment.


Have you considered going Cleric/ Crusader/ Refluffed RKV? There are a number of proposals for alternate RKVs (this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?139711-ToB-Alternate-Vindicators) contains some favorites of mine), but even if you don't like homebrew, it shouldn't be too hard to do. The RKV gets you your maneuver progression, plus Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Stone Dragon maneuvers. (You don't need to use Shadow Hand if it doesn't fit your image.) It also gets you 8/10 casting progression, which means 8/10 levels of Cleric casting for some solid buffing ability.

Clerics have the potential to alternate readily between being frontline combatants and effective support/buff units. RKV's Divine Impetus, if read to activate as a free action, allows you an easy way to throw out swift actions on the fly. You could use buffs for that. Alternatively, Paladin with Battle Blessing accomplishes the same thing, with the added bonus of Aura of Courage.

I had considered RKV, since it blends melee and casting very well, and also Paladin on its own in an Initiate of Milil build. The thing that's just annoying about RKV is that (although it would be pretty easy to houserule it in) RAW it won't progress Inspire Courage with Song of the White Raven, which would have been pretty excellent otherwise. Without the Bardy element it has too few skills for the party face role it would definitely be picking up. Actually it has little need for Charisma at all, apart from extra Turn attempts.

[Red Fel]

I had considered RKV, since it blends melee and casting very well, and also Paladin on its own in an Initiate of Milil build. The thing that's just annoying about RKV is that (although it would be pretty easy to houserule it in) RAW it won't progress Inspire Courage with Song of the White Raven, which would have been pretty excellent otherwise. Without the Bardy element it has too few skills for the party face role it would definitely be picking up. Actually it has little need for Charisma at all, apart from extra Turn attempts.

The thing is, Bard is one way to be a team player. Certainly not the only way, although it's a good one. Do you want Bard to be a core element to this build, or are you just using it as an illustration?

[Ellowryn]

Even with Bard 7/War Weaver 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 you can still do Inspire Courage, it just takes some dedication (and gold).

Badge of Valor from MiC gives you 3/day increase to IC by 1
Vest of Legends from DMGII increases your bard level by 5
The Song of the Heart Feat increase your Bardic Music by 1
Words of Creation Feat doubles you IC (however when it does the doubling is up for debate)
The spell Inspirational Boost increases your IC by 1

Assuming you have all of these (and WoC does just double everything) you get +10 Inspire Courage, which with Dragonfire Inspiration gives +10d6 to damage.

[Nettlekid]

The thing is, Bard is one way to be a team player. Certainly not the only way, although it's a good one. Do you want Bard to be a core element to this build, or are you just using it as an illustration?

I've been wavering on the edge of that, but I think that yeah, Bard is quite perfect, because I want to be quite directly inspiring courage, competence, and potentially greatness in my allies. Bard and Marshal both have that feel to them. And I like the skillmonkey aspect too, since with a little roleplaying Diplomacy or Bluff can be stronger than 9th level spells but never quite seem that way.


Even with Bard 7/War Weaver 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 you can still do Inspire Courage, it just takes some dedication (and gold).

Badge of Valor from MiC gives you 3/day increase to IC by 1
Vest of Legends from DMGII increases your bard level by 5
The Song of the Heart Feat increase your Bardic Music by 1
Words of Creation Feat doubles you IC (however when it does the doubling is up for debate)
The spell Inspirational Boost increases your IC by 1

Assuming you have all of these (and WoC does just double everything) you get +10 Inspire Courage, which with Dragonfire Inspiration gives +10d6 to damage.

That's true. All it loses out on is an extra +4, +2 doubled from higher Bard levels. If only there was a Bardic equivalent of the Monk's Supreme Unarmed Strike.

[Troacctid]

Even with Bard 7/War Weaver 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 you can still do Inspire Courage, it just takes some dedication (and gold).

Badge of Valor from MiC gives you 3/day increase to IC by 1
Vest of Legends from DMGII increases your bard level by 5
The Song of the Heart Feat increase your Bardic Music by 1
Words of Creation Feat doubles you IC (however when it does the doubling is up for debate)
The spell Inspirational Boost increases your IC by 1

Assuming you have all of these (and WoC does just double everything) you get +10 Inspire Courage, which with Dragonfire Inspiration gives +10d6 to damage.

Inspirational Boost and Vest of Legends are no good if you're doing Song of the White Raven, since your effective Bard level is 8 and increasing that to 13 doesn't help, and your swift action is used up on the Inspire Courage itself (unless you play a Synad to get extra swift actions).

But with Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, and Words of Creation, you're still looking at an Inspire Courage of either +6 or +8 (depending on whether you apply Words of Creation first or last), and as a swift action. Not too shabby.

[Divide by Zero]

If you're gonna go War Weaver, try to fit in some Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster so you can use it with higher-level spells.

[Talionis]

For as expansive as 3.5 is, I'm surprised how few ways to play the Team Buffer were created. Where are the choices?

List of Base Classes that Buff Others:
Bard
Marshal (which I'm sorry is woeful when you start leveling it past level 1 or 3)
Cleric (casts buffs, but its Tier 1 it can do everything)
Crusader (more of a tank class, but it has access to White Raven. Most people only want White Raven for White Raven Tactics)
Warblade (more of a Fighter class, but it has access to White Raven... See above)
Dragon Shaman (So woeful no one mentioned it, mostly you might take the Vigor aura as a feat)

List of Prestige Classes that Buff Others:
Sublime Chord (only because it grants level 9 spells to Bards)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (no real ability to buff others)
Jade Phoenix Mage (no real ability to buff others)
War Weaver
War Chanter (Not yet mentioned for not advancing casting it does some big things)
Mythic Exemplar (can advance Inspire Courage and grant a couple Marshal Auras)

[Nettlekid]

For as expansive as 3.5 is, I'm surprised how few ways to play the Team Buffer were created. Where are the choices?

List of Base Classes that Buff Others:
Bard
Marshal (which I'm sorry is woeful when you start leveling it past level 1 or 3)
Cleric (casts buffs, but its Tier 1 it can do everything)
Crusader (more of a tank class, but it has access to White Raven. Most people only want White Raven for White Raven Tactics)
Warblade (more of a Fighter class, but it has access to White Raven... See above)
Dragon Shaman (So woeful no one mentioned it, mostly you might take the Vigor aura as a feat)

List of Prestige Classes that Buff Others:
Sublime Chord (only because it grants level 9 spells to Bards)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (no real ability to buff others)
Jade Phoenix Mage (no real ability to buff others)
War Weaver
War Chanter (Not yet mentioned for not advancing casting it does some big things)
Mythic Exemplar (can advance Inspire Courage and grant a couple Marshal Auras)

Apart from Dragon Shaman and War Chanter, all those have been mentioned and talked about to various extents. War Chanter is pretty cool, since Inspire Recklessness basically gives Shock Trooper to anyone with Power Attack, and Inspire Legion is like a mini-Divine Power. Combine Songs is pretty great too. I realized that if you grab a wand of Lingering Chorus and a Schema of Metamagic Item, you'd be able to effectively Persist your Bardic Musics, which is pretty cool.

Now obviously 9th level spells are better than anything else in the world. But if you want to go flavor over power, might a UMDing Bard/Marshal/Warrior Skald/War Chanter be viable for granting large numbers to attack/damage, Xd6 Dragonfire Inspiration, a bonus to saves and AC, part of Shock Trooper, and Divine Power to everyone nearby be viable?

And does ANYONE have even their own personal opinion on Warrior Skald granting Inspire Courage?

[Jeff the Green]

Nobody's mentioned race yet, so I'll throw in kenku, which grants +3 when aiding others and gets +4 for flanking instead of +2. Not much, but probably more than you can get from other races.

How Warrior Skald works doesn't really have a RAW answer. It's one of the PrCs that almost has to be subject to DM revision per the 3.0>3.5 conversion rules. IIRC, in 3.0 bards got all their abilities at level 1 and it was just Perform ranks that determined what you could do with them.

[Nettlekid]

Nobody's mentioned race yet, so I'll throw in kenku, which grants +3 when aiding others and gets +4 for flanking instead of +2. Not much, but probably more than you can get from other races.

How Warrior Skald works doesn't really have a RAW answer. It's one of the PrCs that almost has to be subject to DM revision per the 3.0>3.5 conversion rules. IIRC, in 3.0 bards got all their abilities at level 1 and it was just Perform ranks that determined what you could do with them.

I didn't really think about race. Illumian would help get into some PrCs faster, but I could do Sanctum Spell cheese. I was thinking Spellscale for the Cha bonus and good Bard substitution levels. Kenku is an interesting choice, but it has more of a "follower" than "leader" feel to it, since my actions could be spent doing much better things than aiding another.

And huh, I didn't know that's how 3.0 Bards worked. It's a pity because it would have been great to get Inspire Greatness and all those other things without having to trudge through so many levels of Bard.

[ranagrande]

I think I'd go with some kind of Bard/Marshal/Crusader/Evangelist/ Legendary Leader

Inspire courage, a stance, five auras projected at once, and not only can you buff your allies, you can also charm your enemies just by talking to them.

[Talionis]

I'm just trying to keep the choices in this thread all in one place. I too love to play PC's that buff other players and allies that are NPCs. I've never found a very comprehensive guide for it so I might try to make one and use this thread as a starting point.

List of Base Classes that Buff Others:
Bard
Marshal (which I'm sorry is woeful when you start leveling it past level 1 or 3)
Cleric (casts buffs, but its Tier 1 it can do everything)
Crusader (more of a tank class, but it has access to White Raven. Most people only want White Raven for White Raven Tactics)
Warblade (more of a Fighter class, but it has access to White Raven... See above)
Dragon Shaman (So woeful no one mentioned it, mostly you might take the Vigor aura as a feat)

List of Prestige Classes that Buff Others:
Sublime Chord (only because it grants level 9 spells to Bards)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (no real ability to buff others)
Jade Phoenix Mage (no real ability to buff others)
War Weaver
War Chanter (Not yet mentioned for not advancing casting it does some big things)
Mythic Exemplar (can advance Inspire Courage and grant a couple Marshal Auras)
Warrior Skald (races of Faerun)
Evangelist
Legendary Leader
Kensai - Has the weird ability to give one ally any and all your BaB and or Saves (works really well if you are Diamond Mind martial adept and can bypass the need for those things)
Virtuoso
Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane) -- Allows two songs with just two class levels
Fochlucan Lyrist -- Advances Bard and a Divine Class (usually Druid?) with full BAB, but its really difficult to get into.

Races
Human -- Extra Feat and lots of skills, never bad
Kenku, which grants +3 when aiding others and gets +4 for flanking
Illumian would help get into some PrCs faster, but I could do Sanctum Spell cheese

[Red Fel]

I'm just trying to keep the choices in this thread all in one place. I too love to play PC's that buff other players and allies that are NPCs. I've never found a very comprehensive guide for it so I might try to make one and use this thread as a starting point.

Several points occur. Did you forget Paladin? Paladin + Battle Blessing is a very effective buffer. He's not Tier 1 like Cleric, but he makes it work sometimes. What do you mean when you say RKV has "no real ability to buff others"? It's built on the intersection of ToB and divine casting. It gets White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and divine casting. That's plenty of buffing, right there. White Raven Tactics isn't the only way ToB classes can buff. For example, Song of the White Raven allows Crusader or Warblade levels to stack with Bard for Inspire Courage. Ironheart Aura grants adjacent allies +2 on all saving throws. Martial Spirit heals allies while you attack. And so forth.

[nedz]

For as expansive as 3.5 is, I'm surprised how few ways to play the Team Buffer were created. Where are the choices?

List of Base Classes that Buff Others:
Bard
Marshal (which I'm sorry is woeful when you start leveling it past level 1 or 3)
Cleric (casts buffs, but its Tier 1 it can do everything)
Crusader (more of a tank class, but it has access to White Raven. Most people only want White Raven for White Raven Tactics)
Warblade (more of a Fighter class, but it has access to White Raven... See above)
Dragon Shaman (So woeful no one mentioned it, mostly you might take the Vigor aura as a feat)

List of Prestige Classes that Buff Others:
Sublime Chord (only because it grants level 9 spells to Bards)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (no real ability to buff others)
Jade Phoenix Mage (no real ability to buff others)
War Weaver
War Chanter (Not yet mentioned for not advancing casting it does some big things)
Mythic Exemplar (can advance Inspire Courage and grant a couple Marshal Auras)

*cough* Wizard *cough* Sorcerer *cough* Druid *cough* Spirit Shaman *cough* Favoured Soul *cough* ... *cough*

Any T1/T2 caster can choose to play a buffer.

"God" Wizard is a specific concept which does exactly this.

[Talionis]

List of Base Classes that Buff Others:
Bard
Marshal (which I'm sorry is woeful when you start leveling it past level 1 or 3)
Cleric (casts buffs, but its Tier 1 it can do everything)
Crusader (more of a tank class, but it has access to White Raven. Most people only want White Raven for White Raven Tactics)
Warblade (more of a Fighter class, but it has access to White Raven... See above)
Dragon Shaman (So woeful no one mentioned it, mostly you might take the Vigor aura as a feat)
Paladin -- Battle Blessing is a very effective buffer. He's not Tier 1 like Cleric, but he makes it work sometimes
All Casters -- Because Wizards are better than everyone, almost Wizards are almost better than everyone. Blah Blah Blah

List of Prestige Classes that Buff Others:
Sublime Chord (only because it grants level 9 spells to Bards)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (intersection of ToB and divine casting. It gets White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and divine casting)
Jade Phoenix Mage (no real ability to buff others)
War Weaver
War Chanter (Not yet mentioned for not advancing casting it does some big things)
Mythic Exemplar (can advance Inspire Courage and grant a couple Marshal Auras)
Warrior Skald (races of Faerun)
Evangelist
Legendary Leader
Kensai - Has the weird ability to give one ally any and all your BaB and or Saves (works really well if you are Diamond Mind martial adept and can bypass the need for those things)
Virtuoso
Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane) -- Allows two songs with just two class levels
Fochlucan Lyrist -- Advances Bard and a Divine Class (usually Druid?) with full BAB, but its really difficult to get into.

Races
Human -- Extra Feat and lots of skills, never bad
Kenku, which grants +3 when aiding others and gets +4 for flanking
Illumian would help get into some PrCs faster, but I could do Sanctum Spell cheese[/QUOTE]

Sub Systems that Buff
White Raven Tactics isn't the only way ToB classes can buff. For example, Song of the White Raven allows Crusader or Warblade levels to stack with Bard for Inspire Courage. Ironheart Aura grants adjacent allies +2 on all saving throws. Martial Spirit heals allies while you attack. And so forth. I'd go farther and say that Shadow Hand is an excellent Debuffer and can make your allies comparably stronger.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here is Ruby Rhod (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?301445-Ruby-Rhod-Divine-Impetus-plus-IC-optimization), my take on an Inspire Courage-focused RKV. It uses Song of the White Raven and Divine Impetus to stack on multiple bardic music effects each round.

It grants +10 attack and +8d6+10 damage to all your allies via its music, as well as having 9th-level maneuvers with a heavy focus on White Raven to further buff your allies. For healing, it has things like Healing Hymn to boost its bardic heal spells out if combat, and maneuvers in combat. It's not a heavy caster at all, instead focusing on crusader.

Might be worth checking out - I'm not familiar with Kamina, but from the description you have it seems like this might be a good fit.

[Talionis]

Can anyone think of any more?

List of Base Classes that Buff Others:
Bard
Marshal (which I'm sorry is woeful when you start leveling it past level 1 or 3)
Cleric (casts buffs, but its Tier 1 it can do everything)
Crusader (more of a tank class, but it has access to White Raven. Most people only want White Raven for White Raven Tactics)
Warblade (more of a Fighter class, but it has access to White Raven... See above)
Dragon Shaman (So woeful no one mentioned it, mostly you might take the Vigor aura as a feat)
Paladin -- Battle Blessing is a very effective buffer. He's not Tier 1 like Cleric, but he makes it work sometimes
All Casters -- Because Wizards are better than everyone, almost Wizards are almost better than everyone. Blah Blah Blah

List of Prestige Classes that Buff Others:
Sublime Chord (only because it grants level 9 spells to Bards)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (intersection of ToB and divine casting. It gets White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and divine casting)
Jade Phoenix Mage (no real ability to buff others)
War Weaver
War Chanter (Not yet mentioned for not advancing casting it does some big things)
Mythic Exemplar (can advance Inspire Courage and grant a couple Marshal Auras)
Warrior Skald (races of Faerun)
Evangelist
Legendary Leader
Kensai - Has the weird ability to give one ally any and all your BaB and or Saves (works really well if you are Diamond Mind martial adept and can bypass the need for those things)
Virtuoso
Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane) -- Allows two songs with just two class levels
Fochlucan Lyrist -- Advances Bard and a Divine Class (usually Druid?) with full BAB, but its really difficult to get into.
Outcast Champion
Nightsong Infiltrator
Warchief (Miniatures Handbook) Body Guard Ability, give allies plus 10 Strength, and boosts your Charisma a lot so it works well with Marshal. And you can enter at level 3.

Races
Human -- Extra Feat and lots of skills, never bad
Kenku, which grants +3 when aiding others and gets +4 for flanking
Illumian would help get into some PrCs faster, but I could do Sanctum Spell cheese[/QUOTE]

Sub Systems that Buff
White Raven Tactics isn't the only way ToB classes can buff. For example, Song of the White Raven allows Crusader or Warblade levels to stack with Bard for Inspire Courage. Ironheart Aura grants adjacent allies +2 on all saving throws. Martial Spirit heals allies while you attack. And so forth. I'd go farther and say that Shadow Hand is an excellent Debuffer and can make your allies comparably stronger.

[Blackhawk748]

You could totally be a Baladin (Bard Paladin) as its REALLY good at buffing since your mixing those two together. Also im gonna second Warchanter, asSong of the Legion will make any minionmancer love you to pieces.