Not so simple rules question...

[Skevvix]

A situation came up this weekend that was.... frustrating. Our group was tasked to kill a Medusa Queen in some forgotten about Gnoll fort. We approached the fort to just outside their detection range and sent in a scout. Our Changeling Rogue was in the form of a Gnoll, and none of the Gnolls he interacted with saw through his disguise. Combat begins once we reach the high ground for me to snipe from. The Changeling was near a group of gnolls and the DM said that the group was going to attack him. We asked how they knew he was a threat and not one of them and so he relented and attacked the Barbarian instead. First round for the rogue and he indicates he wants to bluff the one that was still near him to watch the group where most of the melee was going on so he could SA. At this point the rogue had taken no hostile actions towards the Gnolls and had made a bit of a show to keep his cover once combat broke. At this point it broke down due the DM saying he cannot Feint him because they were not in combat and he is not flatfooted tot he rogue because it had already acted in combat with the other group members.

So I come to you all to hear your take on how this should work. Would the rogue be able to SA due to flat-footedness or would they have been in combat with each other and been entitled to a Feint or .... some third or fourth option?

[nedz]

Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
I think that the first sentence covers it by RAI, but it's really the second sentence which is the rules bit.

Was the Gnoll denied a Dexterity bonus to AC ?

[The Random NPC]

IIRC, technically you are always in combat time, the shift to tracking initiative is so we don't have to ask what everyone's actions for the next six seconds is. That being said, I believe that a feint is fooling someone into thinking you are going to attack differently than you are. That includes not attacking at all. It doesn't matter how you fluff it, you simply somehow convince your enemy to drop/move their guard, and then attack.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I believe you can feint someone while out of combat, and I believe you can feint someone about things not involving combat at all. Like if you were to use a double entendre to simultaneously insult and praise someone (the exact skill will depend on the desired reaction, but likely to use similar rules to feinting).

[Keld Denar]

I believe there are rules in the DMG about different groups of combatants entering combat at different times and who is flatfooted WRT whom.

[Skevvix]

I think that the first sentence covers it by RAI, but it's really the second sentence which is the rules bit.

Was the Gnoll denied a Dexterity bonus to AC ?

See, this was what most of our debate boiled down to. While they were going back and forth I was scouring the DMG and PHB looking for anything that mentioned attacking someone who was "friendly" to you, since that was how it had played out.

I told the DM I would do some more in depth research to make sure that the way he ruled it was a valid RAW or RAI way, hence making this thread.

[nedz]

I believe there are rules in the DMG about different groups of combatants entering combat at different times and who is flatfooted WRT whom.

DMG p22. It only handles the simpler cases and even then it pretty much devolves to Rule 0 — DM's Discretion.

There are no rules for how or when to start a combat other than for meeting engagements.

[Fax Celestis]

An opponent is denied their dexterity bonus to AC primarily whenever they're not properly able to defend themselves: in this case, the gnoll is not properly able to defend himself because he is under the impression the changeling is on his side. But there's no hard and fast rules thing here.

If it were me I would treat it like invisibility: the changeling gets one attack before everyone notices, even if his BAB would allow him more, and so he would get Sneak Attack on his first stab but not on any subsequent ones (barring other shenanigans).

[KillianHawkeye]

I would say that either the target is in combat and therefore you can feint him, or he is not in combat and therefore he is flat-footed. Regardless of anything else, the DM should not be giving the gnoll this "best of both worlds" treatment.

[Divide by Zero]

Regardless of what the RAW says, the gnoll obviously wasn't expecting an attack, so I see no reason not to give him Sneak Attack.

[Skevvix]

I would say that either the target is in combat and therefore you can feint him, or he is not in combat and therefore he is flat-footed. Regardless of anything else, the DM should not be giving the gnoll this "best of both worlds" treatment.

This was pretty much exactly my standpoint in the discussion.

I'll check out DMG 22 as well.

[Skevvix]

DMG page 23 actually has something that might reassure my DM. New combatants that are aware of the skirmish (which I think the rogue would fit into) would act at the top of the initiative order, but it doesn't state if the existing combatants would be flatfooted to them or not. However the next paragraph does indicate that the newcomers would be flatfooted if they were not aware of the melee and lost their init.

[Oddman80]

It's times like these that everyone needs to take a deep breath and close the rules books. A presumed ally, LITERALLY, stabbing you in the back while your attention is elsewhere, is the very definition of a sneek attack.

If you and a fellow guard are heading towards a skirmish, whether or not you are playing with facing rules, the lead guard's full attention is on the skirmish - not on you - the fellow guard - who is supposed to be protecting (i.e. NOT stabbing) his flank.