Need opinion on wizards

[primus380]

So this is a long going dispute between myself and a friend of mine, out of the out schools of magic which is the "best" Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation?

In your own personal opinion

[Bullet06320]

personal tastes and play styles will color any response
but I prefer conjuration, there is very little you cant get done with the right summons

[Divide by Zero]

Abjuration: Dispel Magic is great, but if you have another caster in the party who can cover it then it's not as spectacular. Some other nice toys, but not enough to bring it to the top IMO.
Conjuration: Can do literally everything.
Divination: This is the school that wins campaigns, but it's substantially less useful during an encounter. Hard to rate for that reason.
Enchantment: If mind-affecting immunity wasn't so common, this would be pretty good, but unfortunately that's a big strike against it.
Evocation: About half a dozen really good spells, and then just a bunch of different ways of doing damage, sometimes with minor secondary effects (and Conjuration can often do that better anyway).
Illusion: Limited only by the power of your imagination. Also has the benefit of being able to duplicate most of two other schools, albeit inefficiently.
Necromancy: Minions are great, powerful debuffs are great. A lot of common immunities, unfortunately, but not nearly as bad as Enchantment.
Transmutation: Can do almost everything. Also has a lot of the game-breakers in it.

Conjuration > Transmutation > Abjuration (with no other dispellers) > Illusion > Necromancy > Evocation > Abjuration (with other dispellers) > Enchantment, with Divination off to the side because its strengths are so different.

[eggynack]

The generally agreed upon power levels for the schools, and it's one I agree with, goes something like conjuration and transmutation at the top, in positions where you should never ever ban them, abjuration and divination right below that, such that you shouldn't ban abjuration, and such that you wouldn't ban divination if given the chance, illusion below that, in a place where banning isn't the best, but acceptable, and then necromancy, evocation, and enchantment, in that order, for the schools you'll likely ban if you want to take that route.

If you're talking personal preference, mine aligns pretty closely with the list, as I like conjuration the most. I'm a big fan of long and meandering combats, where I lock up the battlefield before taking down everyone with the inevitability provided by summons, and I similarly love long term minionmancy. Conjuration is all about tactics, the purest expression of D&D as hyper-chess, with options coming out of every orifice, and that stuff is what I'm all about.

[primus380]

My personal view is that i see conjuration in the lower spots because of the arguments i've heard about it. especially in the "conjuration vs. evocation" arguments. the argument i'm given is that why would you choose damage over battlefield control, the way i see it is that conjuration is no less about damage than evocation is, and the player who makes the argument just doesn't want to admit that. i personally prefer Abjuration and Transmutation over anything and don't personally find Necromancy and Conjuration useful and just use Evocation and Illusion to screw around.

[Divide by Zero]

Battlefield control is generally more effective over the course of the battle, and also means you aren't stepping on the fighter's and rogue's toes. And Conjuration is still pretty good at damage, especially single-target - doubly so if the enemy has high saves or SR, which Conjuration damage spells often ignore.

[primus380]

Battlefield control is generally more effective over the course of the battle, and also means you aren't stepping on the fighter's and rogue's toes. And Conjuration is still pretty good at damage, especially single-target - doubly so if the enemy has high saves or SR, which Conjuration damage spells often ignore.

I will admit that i do probably have a personal grievance against conjuration cause the player is kind of a gigantic ******* about it and refuses to basically acknowledge any other school of magic. But i still prefer use of Transmutation and Abjuration to perform battlefield control. based on the previous point you made about Evocation i see Conjuration as doing the same about out shining the rogue and fighter just as well

[eggynack]

My personal view is that i see conjuration in the lower spots because of the arguments i've heard about it. especially in the "conjuration vs. evocation" arguments. the argument i'm given is that why would you choose damage over battlefield control, the way i see it is that conjuration is no less about damage than evocation is, and the player who makes the argument just doesn't want to admit that..
I'm not really sure what you mean about conjuration being no less about damage than evocation is. I mean, yeah, conjuration has some damage, but not as much, and it also has a lot more other stuff. Evocation is, in a lot of ways, just a much weaker conjuration. You have damage spells that aren't as good as orbs, BFC spells that aren't as good as grease/web/black tentacles/solid fog/and so on, utility spells that aren't as good as the teleport line and other classic utility stuff, and no minionmancy whatsoever. It doesn't help that shadow evocation can replicate contingency, which is one of the best evocation effects, as can craft contingent spell, except that one in even better fashion.

In a world without conjuration, and maybe without those contingency replicators, it's entirely possible that evocation would move up in the ranks a bit. There's a lot to like in the school, including a couple of real gems that you don't much find elsewhere, and it could even ascend to the BFC school of choice in that world. However, in the current game, there just isn't much that only evocation can do, and most other schools have a longer list. The school is better than enchantment a good amount of the time, but that's really about it.

[primus380]

Minionmancy isn't really the biggest thing on my mind. my point is probably more of contained incident than a real point. the player i get into arguments with about this only talks about the ability to summon massive hordes of creatures to kill an evocation caster, while the evocation caster could throw a couple of metamagic fireballs and lightning bolts etc. "it basically came down to argument about a magic duel in the end" but basically his points about conjuration just made it look like using a bunch of other creatures to do damage cause evocation is "all about damage"

[eggynack]

Minionmancy isn't really the biggest thing on my mind. my point is probably more of contained incident than a real point. the player i get into arguments with about this only talks about the ability to summon massive hordes of creatures to kill an evocation caster, while the evocation caster could throw a couple of metamagic fireballs and lightning bolts etc. "it basically came down to argument about a magic duel in the end" but basically his points about conjuration just made it look like using a bunch of other creatures to do damage cause evocation is "all about damage"
There's some similarity between the two, but there are also differences. Summons are a source of damage, yes, but as a fighter is, they tend to be miniature BFC effects. They stand in the way of enemies, sometimes using AoO's, they soak up damage, they often use combat maneuvers to lock enemies down, and they do their thing for stretches of time. If a fireball doesn't instantly kill someone, then you've essentially had no tactical impact on the state of the battlefield, but even a summons that never kills anything can change things in interesting ways. Finally, of course, there is the broad range of spell-likes, available from short and long term summoning options alike.

[OldTrees1]

I prefer Necromancy because
1) It gives me great satisfaction to use Arcane Disciple & Touch of Healing to correct WotC's "conjuration(healing) mistake".
2) It has support for founding a nation.

[primus380]

well i guess this has been a bit of an eye opener about conjuration. but i still reserve the right to think that the particular conjuration player i deal with is, and forever will be, a gigantic jerkwad

[eggynack]

well i guess this has been a bit of an eye opener about conjuration. but i still reserve the right to think that the particular conjuration player i deal with is, and forever will be, a gigantic jerkwad
It is indeed an entirely possible thing. Worth note, if you seek to oppose the word of Captain Conjuration, is that the recent tendency in high optimization has been towards generalists over specialists of any kind. Conjuration and transmutation are the best, but every other school absolutely has stuff to offer a wizard, and ditching schools is thus detrimental to wizard versatility.

[Bryconium]

My favorite schools and most used schools are conjuration, evocation and transmutation. Evocation is my go to school on my current wizard, since it has the great combination of aoe damage and powerful bfc that is necessary in the campaign I'm in. Transmutation doesn't get used much, but the spells I use are just so useful. And conjuration, despite my acknowledgement of its power, I only use for the orbs and planar binding.

[Emperor Tippy]

Transmutation and Conjuration are tied in raw power and versatility, although that is largely because of the Planar Binding and Polymorph lines respectively.

Illusion is the next most powerful thanks solely to Simulacrum and Ice Assassin, without those it drops down to probably being the weakest and most ignorable school.

Abjuration is fairly weak in the raw power catagory but it has some of the best defensive and anti-caster spells in the game (the Dispel line, Disjunction, Mind Blank, etc.) and as such it should pretty much never be banned.

Divination has a ton of utility but lacks in raw power although between being unable to ban it and the Spontaneous Divination alternate class feature (which should be on every single build that has 5+ levels of wizard in it, period) its utility is more than sufficient to carry the school into a spot in the upper half of the schools.

Necromancy has some very nice gems (Hide Life and Astral Projection, for example) but its raw power and utility are both generally less than the previously mentioned schools. Conjuration does minions better than Necromancy, Hide Life is a cheap scroll away, and Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion can all get Astral Projection easily (Planar Bind a Nightmare, Shapechange into a Nightmare, Simulacrum of a Nightmare). I generally rate this as the "worst" school for Wizards but that doesn't imply that it is actually bad.

Enchantment is a highly underrated school largely because it sucks in direct combat. It is the easiest school to become immune to and even without immunity most of its spells allow both saves and SR. That being said, it is not a combat school and should not be used that way. One of the scariest things in D&D is a high level Enchanter who knows what they are doing, and even a low level Enchanter can hit way outside their weight class. Charm Person + Hypnotism is [I]nasty[I], especially when you use it to implant a command to auto fail all Will saves against your Dominate Person spell (as just one such example). At higher levels you can use Disjunction to rip off all defenses, Polymorph Any Object to change the target into a human, Mind Fog to tank their Will Save, Lesser Geas to tank Wisdom by 8 points, Bestow Curse for another -6 to Wisdom, Bestow Curse for another -4 to Will saves, and then use Mind Rape to totally rebuild the target into your loyal and eternal slave. Given time entire armies of sleeper agents can be created and every single enemy that tries and fails to attack becomes an Enchanters thrall. Used well this school will get the DM and/or players bitching just as much (if not more) than something like Shapechange abuse will.

Evocation is likewise highly underrated because many people make the mistaken assumption that it is an offensive, direct damage, school. It is not, Evocation is a Defensive/Utility school with a few useful pieces of direct damage included and in the Defensive/Utility category it is one of the hands down best schools in the game.


---
In the end I would probably rate the schools as follows:
Tier 1: Transmutation and Conjuration with the more powerful depending on level, play-style, campaign, etc.
Tier 2: Abjuration, Illusion, Evocation, Divination, and Enchantment*. All five are very solid with the exact order and usefulness depending a lot of the specific character and campaign.
Tier 3: Necromancy and Enchantment*. Necromancy is just too limited and overshadowed by the better schools without any unique tricks that really justify the school while Enchantments place depends a ton on play-style considerations.

[Eldan]

To expand on what Tippy said a bit:
The power of Polymorph and Planar Binding is that they each let you do absolutely everything you want.

Polymorph? Turn into a monster which can do it.
The Planar Binding line, I think, is a bit better, at least in the hands of someone who's not quite as willing to go over every book with a comb. Why? Because whenever you have any problem, you can just call up an outsider who can cast a spell to solve it. An Ifrit, maybe, with Wish.

[Gwendol]

Tippy nailed it. The considerations regarding Enchantment are especially note-worthy as they tend to be completely overlooked in these types of discussions.

[dextercorvia]

Which is why you really want to be a Psion with access to all of it, and then some.

[Divide by Zero]

Minionmancy isn't really the biggest thing on my mind. my point is probably more of contained incident than a real point. the player i get into arguments with about this only talks about the ability to summon massive hordes of creatures to kill an evocation caster, while the evocation caster could throw a couple of metamagic fireballs and lightning bolts etc. "it basically came down to argument about a magic duel in the end" but basically his points about conjuration just made it look like using a bunch of other creatures to do damage cause evocation is "all about damage"

So, what scenario are we talking about here? Are we just looking at the schools' power in a 1v1 wizard's duel? A typical encounter? Over the course of a campaign?

Anyway, it seems like the player doesn't really understand the power of Conjuration either, if he thinks using summons to do damage is the best way to use it.

[Shining Wrath]

As always, who else is in the party and what is the DM throwing at you?

But, purely in the abstract:

Conjuration. Because you can summon something (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) to do almost anything that needs doing. The list of SLA possessed by various summonable critters is quite long.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

Abjuration: I like the idea, but I feel like it isn't really fully realized. For one thing: Where are the damn healing spells? How are you supposed to be a leader and supporter if you can't even do some field medicine?
Conjuration: A very good concept hampered by the need for in-game balance. A high level conjurer is a damn cool character to play, making pacts with celestial and/or infernal forces to further your own ambitions, but at a terrible price... the only problem is, before you get to that level you're stuck literally throwing badgers and spiders and snakes at people like some charlatan buffoon trying to convince people he's a real wizard, it just looks goofy as hell.
Divination: Oh hell yes. Knowledge is power. Be it knowledge of the future, knowledge from ancient texts that only you can read, knowledge of someone's darkest, deepest secret. After all, magic is just knowing things that others don't, so magic bult around aquiring even more knowledge is the most magical.
Enchantment: A purely evil school of magic if there ever was one. At least a necromancer only defiles your flesh after you've died, an enchanter will warp your thoughts, your emotions and twist your very soul and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Awesome school.
Evocation: Read Mage the Awakening and look at the sphere of Forces, that's evocation. It's control of energy, heat, movement, electricity, raw explosive magic that takes a great deal of discipline. I haven't played an evoker yet but if I would play one I'd play the character almost like a monk, training your mind and body so you have perfect control over it, because how could you ever safely hurl a fireball from your hands or call down lightning from the heavens if you can't even control yourself?
Illusion: Like a more flashy, more flamboyant version of enchantment. Not really my thing, but lots of fun if you're willing to experiment with it.
Necromancy: The best school, because who doesn't want power over life and death?
Transmutation: In my campaign world this is the school that most people want to become a wizard for. Forcing your will onto the universe until it reshapes itself in your vision, that is awesome, that is damn near divine power. Combine it with a character with some serious mental issues, particularly various forms of OCD and dysphoria, maybe even a touch of schizophrenia to the point where they are always subtling transmuting the world around them to fit their world-view.

[Shining Wrath]

Transmutation and Conjuration are tied in raw power and versatility, although that is largely because of the Planar Binding and Polymorph lines respectively.

Illusion is the next most powerful thanks solely to Simulacrum and Ice Assassin, without those it drops down to probably being the weakest and most ignorable school.

Abjuration is fairly weak in the raw power catagory but it has some of the best defensive and anti-caster spells in the game (the Dispel line, Disjunction, Mind Blank, etc.) and as such it should pretty much never be banned.

Divination has a ton of utility but lacks in raw power although between being unable to ban it and the Spontaneous Divination alternate class feature (which should be on every single build that has 5+ levels of wizard in it, period) its utility is more than sufficient to carry the school into a spot in the upper half of the schools.

Necromancy has some very nice gems (Hide Life and Astral Projection, for example) but its raw power and utility are both generally less than the previously mentioned schools. Conjuration does minions better than Necromancy, Hide Life is a cheap scroll away, and Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion can all get Astral Projection easily (Planar Bind a Nightmare, Shapechange into a Nightmare, Simulacrum of a Nightmare). I generally rate this as the "worst" school for Wizards but that doesn't imply that it is actually bad.

Enchantment is a highly underrated school largely because it sucks in direct combat. It is the easiest school to become immune to and even without immunity most of its spells allow both saves and SR. That being said, it is not a combat school and should not be used that way. One of the scariest things in D&D is a high level Enchanter who knows what they are doing, and even a low level Enchanter can hit way outside their weight class. Charm Person + Hypnotism is [I]nasty[I], especially when you use it to implant a command to auto fail all Will saves against your Dominate Person spell (as just one such example). At higher levels you can use Disjunction to rip off all defenses, Polymorph Any Object to change the target into a human, Mind Fog to tank their Will Save, Lesser Geas to tank Wisdom by 8 points, Bestow Curse for another -6 to Wisdom, Bestow Curse for another -4 to Will saves, and then use Mind Rape to totally rebuild the target into your loyal and eternal slave. Given time entire armies of sleeper agents can be created and every single enemy that tries and fails to attack becomes an Enchanters thrall. Used well this school will get the DM and/or players bitching just as much (if not more) than something like Shapechange abuse will.

Evocation is likewise highly underrated because many people make the mistaken assumption that it is an offensive, direct damage, school. It is not, Evocation is a Defensive/Utility school with a few useful pieces of direct damage included and in the Defensive/Utility category it is one of the hands down best schools in the game.


---
In the end I would probably rate the schools as follows:
Tier 1: Transmutation and Conjuration with the more powerful depending on level, play-style, campaign, etc.
Tier 2: Abjuration, Illusion, Evocation, Divination, and Enchantment*. All five are very solid with the exact order and usefulness depending a lot of the specific character and campaign.
Tier 3: Necromancy and Enchantment*. Necromancy is just too limited and overshadowed by the better schools without any unique tricks that really justify the school while Enchantments place depends a ton on play-style considerations.

If limited to PHB + Spell Compendium only (so no Ice Assassins, no Mind Rape), what's your ranking?

[Fax Celestis]

If you're talking personal preference, mine aligns pretty closely with the list, as I like conjuration the most. I'm a big fan of long and meandering combats, where I lock up the battlefield before taking down everyone with the inevitability provided by summons, and I similarly love long term minionmancy. Conjuration is all about tactics, the purest expression of D&D as hyper-chess, with options coming out of every orifice, and that stuff is what I'm all about.

Eggy, I think I learned a little too much about your fetishes today.

[eggynack]

Eggy, I think I learned a little too much about your fetishes today.
I like to think that you can never really learn too much about anything.

[Shining Wrath]

I like to think that you can never really learn too much about anything.

TMI: oxymoron, or only way to preserve your sanity on the Interwebs? Discuss.

[Dalebert]

Conjuration is still pretty good at damage, especially single-target - doubly so if the enemy has high saves or SR, which Conjuration damage spells often ignore.

I did experience some frustration trying to use Sculpt Spell without Evocation, and that feat is crucial to hit your enemies but not your allies with AoE in many situations. However, that was at relatively low levels. It seems Conjuration actually gets some area spells at later levels to make this matter less. Before people mention a feat to make spells affect an area--sure but now you're using up more precious feats and stacking yet more levels on your spells vs. just one for Sculpt Spell. Essentially, Evocation is a little better than Conjuration for AoE, but single-target Conjuration pretty consistently trumps Evocation. It was actually challenging to fill and effectively use some of those bonus metamagic feats as an Ultimate Magus without Evocation but I never regretted the choice to drop the school.

I will always drop Evocation first.

My favorite for versatility and general effectiveness is Transmutation. A benefit of that choice is your party will tend to not feel as overshadowed by your tier 1 power because you'll frequently be buffing them and making them feel like the superstars.

Depending on the flavor I'm going for, I could see Illusion as a fun choice. Shadow magic can mean a lot of versatility being able to cast the spell you need on the spot. Also, some of my favorite spells are here so I'm VERY reluctant to drop the school even if I don't specialize. Simulacrum is just so awesome for having a ton of completely obedient followers who can even cast spells on your behalf, guard your home, etc.

I agree with many that Conjuration is a nice 2nd choice.

In Pathfinder, I would absolutely consider Necromancy specialization as it comes with the perk of negative energy channeling just like a cleric. I'm a big fan of minions and this is a great way to get decent ones at low levels, especially if combined with the Undead Master feat. I am also very reluctant to drop Necromancy as it has some great debuffs with no saves. Who wants to give up Ray of Enfeeblement?

[eggynack]

TMI: oxymoron, or only way to preserve your sanity on the Interwebs? Discuss.
My suspicion is that attempting to preserve your sanity on the internet is as much a contradiction in terms as too much information is.

[Hecuba]

So this is a long going dispute between myself and a friend of mine, out of the out schools of magic which is the "best" Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation?

In your own personal opinion

The analysis thus far is spot on.

To expand a bit on Tippy's commentary on Evocation: a successful Evoker needs to play far less like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) and far more like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html). Neither is optimal, but if you stick to the prior edition idea of Evocation=Boom you're going to miss most of its best options.

That said, explosions can solve problems. The most blatant niche for Evocation on the damage front is long-range AOE: if you have a campaign focused around mass combat (and you're not going to try to deliberately bypass that element), evocation can do very well. These same spells tend to give an advantage on destroying things/places as well; if you want to reduce something to smoking rubble, evocation is a good place to start*.


*A well chosen Shapechange is still usually more efficient, but that's the case for most problems.

[primus380]

So, what scenario are we talking about here? Are we just looking at the schools' power in a 1v1 wizard's duel? A typical encounter? Over the course of a campaign?

Anyway, it seems like the player doesn't really understand the power of Conjuration either, if he thinks using summons to do damage is the best way to use it.

a mixture of 1v1 wizard duel and overall helpfulness to the party (party in question being a group of people who want to feel like a hero)

[eggynack]

Helpfulness to the party is pretty much what we've been talking about. It's the usual measure of a given game object's power level. As for a dual, that's a different thing, and it depends a lot on level, and to some lesser degree on book access. I'd suspect that rankings wouldn't change a massive amount, though abjuration should likely be placed higher, to reflect the utility of stuff like dispel magic. Really, at most levels, things come down to a vast array of measures and countermeasures, and tend not to rely all that heavily on any one school.

[ManicOppressive]

I love Abjuration, personally, but that's in no small part because I play a lot of Abjurant Champions, and Prismatic Sphere is a hilarious spell. Conjuration is, in my opinion, head and shoulders above all other schools in terms of utility, with Transmutation being the only one close in my mind.

I almost never specialize because I don't like limiting myself. The only school I could bring myself to do without completely is Necromancy, because it doesn't do anything that other schools don't. I hate banning Enchantment just for the Charm/Dominate spells.

[Stella]

Helpfulness to the party is pretty much what we've been talking about.
I prefer Conjuration for this reason. And also because I personally find it to be a lot of fun, plain and simple. It gives the Wizard plenty of options, and allows for some very lopsided action economy battles, which can provide a lot of assistance to the party without appearing to be a spotlight hog. And it scales well, offering effective spells at all levels even if you only consider the summoning spells.

At low levels your summoned monsters are adding actions to your side, providing damage soaks, flanking for the Rogue and martial types, inflicting some damage, forcing defensive casting, getting all melee on the opponents who want to sit back and shoot bows at you, making AoO, and even doing things like making Trip attacks.

At higher levels they are doing all of the above plus adding in some battlefield control spells and other utility.

And if action economy is of the most importance in any given encounter, an Empowered or Maximized summons can ensure that those 1d3 or 1d4 rolls give you the most actions in return for your spell.

[Dalebert]

And if action economy is of the most importance in any given encounter, an Empowered or Maximized summons can ensure that those 1d3 or 1d4 rolls give you the most actions in return for your spell.

At the risk of briefly going off topic, I just have to say those die rolls for lower levels creatures bugs the Hell out of me. I don't see the point of making the result so swingy. Just say how many lower CR creatures I can summon instead of one higher CR creatures. I like your work-around for that problem but I wish we didn't need a work-around. Sheesh.

[Stella]

I agree 100%. It was entirely because I got fed up with rolling a '1' on the d3 or d4 (it's d4+1, but still) while also sacrificing the better creature table that I started using metamagic wands with my summoning spells (and without a lot of metamagic cheese it's really not worth the higher spell slot to 'fix' the problem). But when the die is so small the odds for a minimum roll are far greater than with a larger die type. So I'd agree that by simply allowing 2 creatures from the table one below and 3 creatures from the table two below, or anything similar, would solve the problem entirely.

[Fax Celestis]

Generally, I just allow people rolling multitudes of dice (ie: fireball, ludicrous Sneak Attack, etc.). to just "take average" to expedite play. I'd probably allow the same for the summoning spells. 1d4+1? You just summon 3.

[Vogonjeltz]

So this is a long going dispute between myself and a friend of mine, out of the out schools of magic which is the "best" Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation?

In your own personal opinion

Abjuration takes the crown by three bodies, barring no comers.

Anything that can be done by magic can be stopped or undone with Abjuration.