Path of War now out! What do you like?

[Vhaidara]

So, Dreamscarred Press has released Path of War. What does the Playground like?

I for one love how maneuver recovery is now an interesting mechanic. The Warder is a great tactical tanking class, the reincarnation of the 3.5 Knight (but good), and the Warlord's Gambits look incredibly fun.

As far as the disciplines, I love that there are options for ranged and shield, as well as more traditional combat styles.

Featwise, Deadly Agility wins hands down. Deadly Pairing could be really fun if I ever port Dvati to PF. A lot of other feats look really fun.

I'm still reading through the maneuver, but it looks like there is no IHS or WRT. Which is good.

Archetypes: Stalker ones are interesting. Not sure how good. Warder look very interesting, again, need more time to read. Warlord archetypes look very fun. War Soul is amazing.

PrCs: Gishing is good, need to read more for the other two.

Martial Traditions: I love these. They let you customize the classes to fit what you want. The number of times I have wanted Setting Sun on a Warblade are many.

so, what does everyone else think?

[Azurefenrir]

I've just downloaded the full PDF, though I had some time to read the maneuvers and base classes prior.

The only thing that I'm apprehensive about is the power inflation when compared to ToB. A number of maneuvers were straightly more powerful than anything of comparable levels printed in the ToB (for instance, you can get a much more accurate version of Ruby Nightmare Blade at IL3). Adding to this are more class features, such as gambits adding +CHA to combat stuff on success. ToB already has the problem of appearing extremely powerful at lower levels, and a lot of the ToW inflation makes this worse, which means more DMs might see it, instantly scream OP, and ban the book.

Other than that, I like the book. One of the things that really drew my eye was the Mage Hunter prestige class, which is a really, really strong PrC. Granted, it still has trouble dealing with spells that make them incapable of/struggle with landing the attack in the first place (things like walls of force, mirror image, contingent teleport set to go off before an attack lands, and the likes), but the class is still very strong for a general adventurer. Makes me really want to play one (if I can ever find a local PoW-friendly group).

EDIT: I might have just missed it, but are there any alternate favored class options mentioned in the book?

EDIT2: Never mind on the no-save stun - could have sworn that shards of iron strike was a stun when I last read it. Nonetheless, power inflation compared to ToB is still there in the base class abilities and a lot of the maneuvers' powers.

[Vhaidara]

Broken Blade has a maneuver that no-save stuns at level 1

What? The closest I see is Shards of Iron Strike, which is staggered not stunned. To be fair, I'm technically not working with the full release (I bought through Paizo store, not DSP)

[Sayt]

Warlords are definitely gonna want a level dip in Swashbuckler for the Cha for combat feats instead of Int if they intend on monoclassing.

Martial Power looks like a decent alternative to Combat expertise, and might actually see some use as something other than a prerequisite.

The fact that Maneuvers are presenting in their whole are organised by school, then level, then alphabetic order is something that I adore.

[Snowbluff]

Can we still get dex based spells? :smalltongue:

I will never play PoW. Not because it's not good, but because 3rd party isn't allowed at my tables. :l

[Squirrel_Dude]

Some of the feats in the book make me incredibly happy. I forget some of their names but:

- Easy dex to damage, finally
- Shield AC bonus to reflex saves
- Thrown items bouncing off their target and coming back to you (when you use a maneuver)


I still need to get through more of it, but I'm really looking forward to playing one of these classes in the near future.

[Sayt]

What? The closest I see is Shards of Iron Strike, which is staggered not stunned. To be fair, I'm technically not working with the full release (I bought through Paizo store, not DSP)

Shards of Iron is the only effect dealing broken blade maneuver, and yeah, it's stagger, not stun. It's also single attack only. Also, due to how maneuver recovery works, you can't use it to perma-lockdown, IIRC?

[Azurefenrir]

Shards of Iron is the only effect dealing broken blade maneuver, and yeah, it's stagger, not stun. It's also single attack only. Also, due to how maneuver recovery works, you can't use it to perma-lockdown, IIRC?

Shards of Iron used to be a stun at some point in the past when I read it (either that or I'm confusing the pdfs with Elric's handbooks).

Either way, the point is that PoW classes and maneuvers are more powerful than the ToB versions, which might make newer DMs uncomfortable and less willing to accept the book at low-levels. With ToB you can already do 2d6 (Greatsword) + 1d6 (Punishing Stance) + 1d6 (Sapp Nite Strike) + [Str/Other Bonuses] in damage at level 1 for a -2 AC penalty. ToW switches the -2 AC for +2 AC, allows you to add a +2 hit and +2 damage to all allies with a swift action, and add +Cha to one or both with a gambit.

Yes, I am aware that you can optimize a fighter for more damage, etc., and that it's balanced at higher levels, but this sort of numbers at level 1 can be incredibly off-putting to newer DMs. That's my main concern with the book.

[Psyren]

Is it on the PFSRD yet? Normally I'm fine with preordering DSP's stuff but on this one I'm a bit more inclined to peruse first and see if I like it.

[Snowbluff]

Is it on the PFSRD yet? Normally I'm fine with preordering DSP's stuff but on this one I'm a bit more inclined to peruse first and see if I like it.

It's a good policy. I haven't bought any books in a while aside from the 5e PHB, which I got a look at beforehand.

[Novawurmson]

Is it on the PFSRD yet? Normally I'm fine with preordering DSP's stuff but on this one I'm a bit more inclined to peruse first and see if I like it.

Not yet, but it will be eventually. The full book just came out, and it'll take time and volunteers to get it there.

Edit: But yeah, trying before buying is a good policy. It's what drew me to DSP in the first place. If I hadn't been able to read all of Psionics Unleashed on the SRD, I probably would have never given them a second glance.

[Axebird]

Either way, the point is that PoW classes and maneuvers are more powerful than the ToB versions, which might make newer DMs uncomfortable and less willing to accept the book at low-levels. With ToB you can already do 2d6 (Greatsword) + 1d6 (Punishing Stance) + 1d6 (Sapp Nite Strike) + [Str/Other Bonuses] in damage at level 1 for a -2 AC penalty. ToW switches the -2 AC for +2 AC, allows you to add a +2 hit and +2 damage to all allies with a swift action, and add +Cha to one or both with a gambit.

Yes, I am aware that you can optimize a fighter for more damage, etc., and that it's balanced at higher levels, but this sort of numbers at level 1 can be incredibly off-putting to newer DMs. That's my main concern with the book.

It's important to keep in mind that Pathfinder classes in general are stronger than 3.x classes, multiclassing and PrC shenanigans aside. The power level of the game overall is higher, especially for non-casters. If these classes weren't more powerful than their old counterparts, they'd probably struggle!

For example, the old 3.5 Ghaele had 65 hit points. The new one has higher ability scores, 3 more hit dice, higher ac, much better saves, and 136 hit points. They're both CR 13. It's an isolated example, so take it with a grain of salt, but you'll see that in a lot of places with creatures and especially with classes- the old paladin is nothing compared to the Pathfinder paladin.

[jjcrpntr]

Will there be a printed book version of this? I'm looking but I'm not having any luck finding it. I've been waiting for them to release this so I can get it. I know I can get the pdf's but I like having the books.

[malonkey1]

Will there be a printed book version of this? I'm looking but I'm not having any luck finding it. I've been waiting for them to release this so I can get it. I know I can get the pdf's but I like having the books.

I actually don't know if they're still releasing new print books. You could ask customer service at the DSP site.


Can we still get dex based spells? :smalltongue:

I will never play PoW. Not because it's not good, but because 3rd party isn't allowed at my tables. :l

That's a damn shame. Perhaps a brave hero with a Skype account and a green Wizard avatar might be willing to get ahold of a module and run a quick adventure with DSP?



On-topic, I love it. ToB was one of my favorite books, barely beaten by Magic of Incarnum (and anybody who knows me knows I loves me some Incarnum). I'm looking forward to the Incarnum-esque thing they're doing (Akashic Mysteries, I think it's called now), especially since they plan to have an Akashic Maneuver-using class called the Pharaoh. Squee! It's a good time to be me.

[Larkas]

Will there be a printed book version of this? I'm looking but I'm not having any luck finding it. I've been waiting for them to release this so I can get it. I know I can get the pdf's but I like having the books.

That makes us two!

[Squirrel_Dude]

I actually don't know if they're still releasing new print books. You could ask customer service at the DSP site.



PDF version of the Final Book is available! Dead tree edition in the week or so to follow!

Check it out here: http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/pid=139.html
Or here: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/135308/Path-of-War

Paizo site to follow, and lots of other places! You'd also do me a HUGE favor for anyone getting this to give a review to it! I'd super appreciate it!

-X

So yes, they are going to release it as a print book.



Can we still get dex based spells? :smalltongue:

I will never play PoW. Not because it's not good, but because 3rd party isn't allowed at my tables. :lWell... you could DM some time and then throw NPC Psions or Stalkers at the party.

Though some players might frown on that.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Can we still get dex based spells? :smalltongue:

No, and it's a damn shame about that too.

[Snowbluff]

No, and it's a damn shame about that too.

Khan!!! Khan!!!

[Ilorin Lorati]

I can understand it being limited to mental stats, but as is if the character qualifies through martial training they are int based - do not pass go, do not use Charisma or Wisdom. It just comes across as heavy handed and I would have much preferred to have seen Int-based explicitly only if the skill was Str- or Dex-based.

[Snowbluff]

Still, if I ever get the chance I'll use that warlord class then go into the caster class and end with the gish class...

... if I ever get to play it. Is anyone here planning a PBP? :smalltongue:

[malonkey1]

Still, if I ever get the chance I'll use that warlord class then go into the caster class and end with the gish class...

... if I ever get to play it. Is anyone here planning a PBP? :smalltongue:

I could do it. Do we have anybody interested other than Snowbluff?

[Axebird]

I would totally love to get involved in a DSP heavy game. I'm a relatively new face around here, though.

[malonkey1]

I would totally love to get involved in a DSP heavy game. I'm a relatively new face around here, though.

Everyone's a new face at some point. Welcome to the boards.

EDIT: If we're gonna do this, maybe I should make a thread in the PbP forum...

[Ilorin Lorati]

Still, if I ever get the chance I'll use that warlord class then go into the caster class and end with the gish class...

... if I ever get to play it. Is anyone here planning a PBP? :smalltongue:

There's not really too much of a point of going Bladecaster class in that case, since the CL of Mage Hunter spells is already the character's IL. Maybe a 3 level dip for Arcane Recovery if you qualify through Martial Training (but not if you qualified through a class with actual maneuver progression), or if you only took 2 levels in Mage Hunter.

Also, the Bladecaster picture reminds me of a heavily armored Stephen King.

[squiggit]

I can understand it being limited to mental stats

I can't! Paizo already has a Con based caster and a Dex based caster isn't that hard to justify.

Having trouble coming up with fluff behind why a strength based caster might exist though.

edit: POW/DSP PbP sounds awesome.

[Palanan]

Is Path of War different enough from ToB to appeal to those who don't like the latter?

I hear nothing but good things about DSP, but I'm just not a ToB person. Without getting into that...is Path of War its own separate creation, or an artful echo of ToB?

[Snowbluff]

There's not really too much of a point of going Bladecaster class in that case, since the CL of Mage Hunter spells is already the character's IL. Maybe a 3 level dip for Arcane Recovery if you qualify through Martial Training (but not if you qualified through a class with actual maneuver progression), or if you only took 2 levels in Mage Hunter.

Also, the Bladecaster picture reminds me of a heavily armored Stephen King.

I'll need to look at the text. Is it on PFSRD yet?

[malonkey1]

Is Path of War different enough from ToB to appeal to those who don't like the latter?

I hear nothing but good things about DSP, but I'm just not a ToB person. Without getting into that...is Path of War its own separate creation, or an artful echo of ToB?

A little both, I'd say. Things are better-balanced and more carefully edited, but the system is mostly the same. I'd say if you were not a fan of the old ToB, take a look but don't hold out much hope.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I can't! Paizo already has a Con based caster and a Dex based caster isn't that hard to justify.

Scarred Witch Doctor isn't entirely Con based, and Con is an otherwise purely defensive stat so it's actually a lot more easily justified than Str or Dex.

(As mentioned before, I'm still disappointed in the decision for flavor reasons though)


Is Path of War different enough from ToB to appeal to those who don't like the latter?

I hear nothing but good things about DSP, but I'm just not a ToB person. Without getting into that...is Path of War its own separate creation, or an artful echo of ToB?

It really depends on what you didn't like about ToB. If you didn't like that ToB more or less replaced certain older classes wholesale, then you may like PoW. If you didn't like the maneuver mechanics, then you won't like PoW.

[Vhaidara]

EDIT: If we're gonna do this, maybe I should make a thread in the PbP forum...

I could be down for this, using a War Soul Soulknife.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati
It really depends on what you didn't like about ToB. If you didn't like that ToB more or less replaced certain older classes wholesale, then you may like PoW. If you didn't like the maneuver mechanics, then you won't like PoW.

Gotcha, thank you. Not a fan of maneuver mechanics.

Although I wouldn't mind taking a look if I ever see the hardcopy, just to get a sense of it.

.

[squiggit]

Is Path of War different enough from ToB to appeal to those who don't like the latter?

I hear nothing but good things about DSP, but I'm just not a ToB person. Without getting into that...is Path of War its own separate creation, or an artful echo of ToB?

It's mostly the latter, so it'll depend on why you dislike ToB.

If you just don't like maneuvers or the initiator system, you won't like PoW because it's built on the same basic chassis.

Personally I'm liking PoW a lot more because the schools feel cleaner and better balanced, the classes feel less generic (which, admittedly, could be a bad thing dependong on perspective) and a lot of the design just feels crisper.


Scarred Witch Doctor isn't entirely Con based, and Con is an otherwise purely defensive stat so it's actually a lot more easily justified than Str or Dex.
Actually I'd argue it being such a great defensive stat makes it even harder to justify from a design standpoint. Con is basically king.

From a flavor standpoint I like the idea and I like the idea of dex based casting. Personally I liked fluffing it as magic based around far more intricate somatic components.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'll need to look at the text. Is it on PFSRD yet?

It just came out yesterday. You're looking at 2 weeks minimum before it's on the SRD, and honestly probably longer - Ultimate Psionics isn't even on the community SRD yet.

Edit:


Actually I'd argue it being such a great defensive stat makes it even harder to justify from a design standpoint. Con is basically king.

From a flavor standpoint I like the idea and I like the idea of dex based casting. Personally I liked fluffing it as magic based around far more intricate somatic components.

On a small-HD class with a poor Fort save progression and a spell list that doesn't lend itself at all to Gishdom, while still not granting bonus spells for a high Con score. Perspective is pretty important here.

Edit 2: Mage Hunter uses the Magus Spell list. Can someone say "2 level Magus dip"?

[jjcrpntr]

So yes, they are going to release it as a print book.


Well... you could DM some time and then throw NPC Psions or Stalkers at the party.

Though some players might frown on that.

awesome catch thanks I must have missed that.

I really enjoyed the ToB and loved the maneuver system. Several of my players loved it as well. I'll have to keep an eye out and get my copy ordered. I was debating between Path of War or Advanced Class Guide as my next book. ACG looks interesting but I think PoW will be my next addition.

[PsyBomb]

Everyone's a new face at some point. Welcome to the boards.

EDIT: If we're gonna do this, maybe I should make a thread in the PbP forum...

Count me in with a Guru or Vizier. Not going to inflict the Multicharger on you guys unless it turns out WAY higher power than I think it will :D

[malonkey1]

Alright, here's what I was thinking for the basic idea of the campaign. A somewhat tongue-in-cheek game, not really super dramatic. Just good, old-fashioned adventuring fun.

House Rules:
Skill Buff: All classes with 2+Int skill ranks/level have their skill ranks bumped up to 4+Int/level
Hit Points: full HD+Con at level 1, HD-2+Con at each level therafter
Easy Supplies: Don't bother tracking rations, non-expensive spell components and non-magical ammo. As long as you have a bag, spell component pouch, and quiver/ammo bag respectively, you're good.
Critical Modification:A natural 20 is not an automatic success, and a natural 1 is not an automatic failure. Nat 20 means you reroll at the same bonus total + 10, and a nat 1 has you likewise reroll at -10. Double 20s are an automatic success and double 1s are an automatic failure. Critical hits and misses on attacks aren't changed.
---------------------------------------------
Tone: Tongue-in-cheek
Combat/Social Focus: As determined by the players
Story: The prince has disappeared, again, and the heroes of the kingdom are all out slaying dragons or otherwise claiming to have something better to do. The PCs are basically the only ones whose time it is worth at this point to find him. Figure out where he is and bring him home in a small number of pieces.
Ability Scores: Generated by Point Buy. Epic Fantasy (25 points)
Starting Level: 1st
Classes: Any. Dream-scarred press content encouraged.
Races: Any. Variety is encouraged.
Traits: Not allowed, except with the Additional Traits feat
Books allowed:

Any Paizo
Any Dreamscarred Press.
Items from other books may be allowed case-by-case.

Restrictions:

No Leadership.
No Item Creation feats.

Perks:

Background Feat: One free feat from among the following: Acrobatics, Additional Traits, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Cosmopolitan, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Endurance, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Prodigy, Scholar, Self-Sufficient, Stealthy, or Toughness
Party Chump: The party receives a free hireling. They may name him as they see fit. He will not fight, and avoids combat, but he will carry your stuff for you and occasionally offer sarcastic advice when asked.

[squiggit]

That sounds pretty fun.

[malonkey1]

Well, we certainly have interest.

Our prospective players:
Snowbluff
Axebird
Squiggit
Keledrath: War Soul Soulknife
Psybomb: Guru or Vizier

[Snowbluff]

Will we have a thread soon? Getting material will make the deadline a concern for me, unless someone will share it. (I'm not sure how DSP handles that sort of thing.)

I'm stuck on Warlord/Blade Caster/Mage Hunter. :smalltongue:

[Kymme]

I'd be in on it. If you guys need some kinda support character, I can whip out a wicked Vitalist. DSP all the way!

[malonkey1]

Alright, then Kymme is the last. I really don't want to try more than 6 players.

I'll go make the thread I made the thread HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371073-Pathfinder-DSP-Boogaloo-The-Hunt-for-Prince-Ritalus&p=18084615#post18084615). And Snowbluff: Remember that all the DSP Psionics is up on d20pfsrd, and you are free to use Paizo stuff as well.

[Sayt]

Alright, then Kymme is the last. I really don't want to try more than 6 players.

I'll go make the thread I made the thread HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371073-Pathfinder-DSP-Boogaloo-The-Hunt-for-Prince-Ritalus&p=18084615#post18084615). And Snowbluff: Remember that all the DSP Psionics is up on d20pfsrd, and you are free to use Paizo stuff as well.

Actually, there is some UPsi content that hasn't made it onto the SRD yet, mostly the stuff that was introduced inside UPsi, like Fighter's Blade and Student of the Astral Suit, but the majority of stuff is there.

EDIT: I am sad that I have missed a chance for a PBP game, but I'm in an odd timezone and would probably slow things down anyway.

[Sartharina]

I like the new classes. Especially the warlord - except for one really frustrating feature - They're classified/restricted to being Striker/Leaders for some reason, and don't have access to the Iron Tortoise discipline, making Sword+Board continue to suck. I don't want to be a Warder - I want to be King Leonidas, but with tits!

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like the new classes. Especially the warlord - except for one really frustrating feature - They're classified/restricted to being Striker/Leaders for some reason, and don't have access to the Iron Tortoise discipline, making Sword+Board continue to suck. I don't want to be a Warder - I want to be King Leonidas, but with tits!

According to this handy little table:

I made this mostly for myself, but here's a reference table for the disciplines:




Discipline
Classes
Weapon groups
Key skill
Tradition


Black Seraph
none
axes, flails, polearms
Intimidate
Black Thorn Knights


Broken Blade
Stalker, Warder, Warlord*
close, monk, natural
Acrobatics
none


Golden Lion
Warder, Warlord
heavy blades, hammers, polearms
Diplomacy
none


Iron Tortoise
Warder, Warlord*
axes, heavy blades, close
Bluff
Defenders of the Realm


Primal Fury
Warder, Warlord
axes, heavy blades, hammers
Survival
Bloody Fangs


Scarlet Throne
Warder*, Warlord
heavy blades, light blades, spears
Sense Motive
Scarlet Sentinels


Silver Crane
none
bows, hammers, spears
Perception
Empyreal Guardians


Solar Wind
Stalker, Warder*, Warlord
bows, crossbows, firearms, thrown
Perception
none


Steel Serpent
Stalker, Warlord*
light blades, close, monk
Heal
none


Thrashing Dragon
Stalker, Warder*, Warlord
close, light blades, double weapons
Acrobatics
none


Veiled Moon
Stalker
light blades, double weapons, spears
Stealth
The Wayward Wanderers


Class name marked with * means an archetype of said class gains said discipline. Archetypes for non-initiator classes not included (at least yet).

The new table format is really a pain. Feel free to yell at me for any mistakes.


You can pick Iron Tortoise with an Archetype or a tradition, so I don't see the problem.

[Snowbluff]

I like the new classes. Especially the warlord - except for one really frustrating feature - They're classified/restricted to being Striker/Leaders for some reason, and don't have access to the Iron Tortoise discipline, making Sword+Board continue to suck. I don't want to be a Warder - I want to be King Leonidas, but with tits!

There's an archetype for sword and board, and there might be a path to grant the tortoise stance.

EDIT: Oh, there is. :smallsmile:

[Sayt]

Wait a minute, Pathwalker into Awakened Blade seems really good.

Especially with maneuver recovery.

Your recovery methods are amazing: As a swift action you get back a maneuver and your psionic focus.

When you hit Awakened Blade 6, you can blow your psionic focus as a full action, to recover Wis mod maneuvers, you then get to psionically refocus as a free action, and manifest a PsyWar power for free? Sweet Holy Hell!

[Larkas]

Quick question: are there archetypes for the base classes?

[Sayt]

Quick question: are there archetypes for the base classes?

The base classes introduced in Path of War? Yes. The existing, 1st party base classes (Ranger, cavalier, etc)? No.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They do have one for Soulknife and another for Psychic Warrior; IIRC Archetypes for base classes are coming in PoW 2.

[Jigawatts]

I like the new classes. Especially the warlord - except for one really frustrating feature - They're classified/restricted to being Striker/Leaders for some reason, and don't have access to the Iron Tortoise discipline, making Sword+Board continue to suck. I don't want to be a Warder - I want to be King Leonidas, but with tits!
The Vanguard Commander is exactly what you are looking for. :smallwink:

[Larkas]

The base classes introduced in Path of War? Yes. The existing, 1st party base classes (Ranger, cavalier, etc)? No.

I meant to say "core classes" all along, but at the last moment my brain derped and I wrote that.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/epic-jackie-chan-template.png

[Sartharina]

The Vanguard Commander is exactly what you are looking for. :smallwink:
Not really, though I did see it. It would be exactly what I'm looking for if it didn't give up Force of Personality, though.

[Sayt]

I meant to say "core classes" all along, but at the last moment my brain derped and I wrote that.


Happens to all of us.

Also, as it turns out, a Pathwalker 10/Awakened Blade 10 ends up with more readied maneuvers and stances than a normal Pathwalker 20.

Also, the fact that you don't need to perform all your gambits to refresh them is... a refreshing change (Ha ha), and means they're not forced into doing combat maneuver to recover maneuvers.

Still a pain in the ass to figure out maneuvers for characters starting at high levels tho :smallyuk:

[Vhaidara]

Not really, though I did see it. It would be exactly what I'm looking for if it didn't give up Force of Personality, though.

Then just do a normal Warlord and have an affiliation with the Defenders of the Realm (that fits Leonidas, right?). Trade out Solar Wind for Iron Tortoise.

As an alternative, there are rules for making your own Martial Tradition, and I would say Sparta counts as a Martial Tradition.

[squiggit]

On the subject of lightly armored sword and board... I would really really like dervish defender if it kept light shield and lost broken blade instead. Never understood why lightly armored warrior with a big shield was so underutilized in fiction when more often than not heavy armor and a big shield were mutually exclusive.

Also wish the alignment based disciplines were a bit more weapon neutral. Have this image in my head of thrashing dragon-black seraph but the idea just doesn't really pan out. Ah well, not a big deal.

[Greenish]

On the subject of lightly armored sword and board... I would really really like dervish defender if it kept light shield and lost broken blade instead. Never understood why lightly armored warrior with a big shield was so underutilized in fiction when more often than not heavy armor and a big shield were mutually exclusive.I don't know why you'd want to lose Broken Blade, it's a really neat shield-fighting discipline (shields of all kinds are close weapons).


Also wish the alignment based disciplines were a bit more weapon neutral. Have this image in my head of thrashing dragon-black seraph but the idea just doesn't really pan out. Ah well, not a big deal.Knuckle axe is in both axes and close weapons, and thus discipline weapon for both Thrashing Dragon and Black Seraph. Pata is light blade/axe (for some reason), so that works too. Both are exotic, though.

For that matter, Thrashing Dragon isn't very heavy on save-granting maneuvers, and Black Seraph has, what, one stance that requires two-handing.


With ToB you can already do 2d6 (Greatsword) + 1d6 (Punishing Stance) + 1d6 (Sapp Nite Strike) + [Str/Other Bonuses] in damage at level 1 for a -2 AC penalty. ToW switches the -2 AC for +2 AC, allows you to add a +2 hit and +2 damage to all allies with a swift action, and add +Cha to one or both with a gambit.Now, now, hold your horses. Scarlet Einhander (the stance I guess you're referring to) only works with one-hander and a free hand, so no greatsword action there. You also can't activate a boost and a gambit on the same turn, since both use swift actions. So, say, 1d8 (Longsword) + 1d6 (Scarlet Einhander) + 1d6 (Crushing Blow) + 2 (Encouraging Roar) + [Str/Other Bonuses]. The biggest difference is that warblade's disciplines are somewhat lighter on boosts (and counters).

[malonkey1]

I don't know why you'd want to lose Broken Blade, it's a really neat shield-fighting discipline (shields of all kinds are close weapons).

Knuckle axe is in both axes and close weapons, and thus discipline weapon for both Thrashing Dragon and Black Seraph. Pata is light blade/axe (for some reason), so that works too. Both are exotic, though.

For that matter, Thrashing Dragon isn't very heavy on save-granting maneuvers, and Black Seraph has, what, one stance that requires two-handing.

Now, now, hold your horses. Scarlet Einhander (the stance I guess you're referring to) only works with one-hander and a free hand, so no greatsword action there. You also can't activate a boost and a gambit on the same turn, since both use swift actions. So, say, 1d8 (Longsword) + 1d6 (Scarlet Einhander) + 1d6 (Crushing Blow) + 2 (Encouraging Roar) + [Str/Other Bonuses]. The biggest difference is that warblade's disciplines are somewhat lighter on boosts (and counters).

Is there a feat resmbling Monkey Grip?

[Ilorin Lorati]

Is there a feat resmbling Monkey Grip.

2 level Titan Mauler dip.

[squiggit]

I don't know why you'd want to lose Broken Blade, it's a really neat shield-fighting discipline (shields of all kinds are close weapons).
That was me forgetting that. For some reason my head keeps saying that Broken Blade is unarmed only.

[Greenish]

That was me forgetting that. For some reason my head keeps saying that Broken Blade is unarmed only.A decent chunk of it is, but the rest immensely benefits from the fact that the designers also tended to forget the other weapons.


For example, at first level, be in Pugilist Stance, use Flurry Strike. Okay, (1d3+Str+2+1d6)*2, solid enough

Instead, use sansetsukon (three-section staff, monk weapon) two-handed for (1d10+1.5*Str+2+1d6)*2. That's starting to hurt.

[ErrantX]

The PDF is going through a revision (hopefully); Broken Blade shouldn't have the restriction anymore. Instead, weapons of the discipline's associated groups inflict an extra 2 damage on maneuvers and +2 to the DC's of its saves (what few there are). Additionally, the shield-less requirement for Scarlet Throne is gone too. Firearms (except seige firearms or siege weapons) are cool with Solar Wind too.

Some wires got crossed between myself and Jeremy so we're gonna get it sorted. When there is a new PDF I'll try to let people know, and we're going to get that fixed before it hits print.

-X

[Greenish]

Are you lifting Broken Blade's discipline restrictions, or the restrictions from the individual maneuvers?

[Sayt]

Additionally, the shield-less requirement for Scarlet Throne is gone too.

Godsend! I wanted to try a Scarlet Throne/Iron Tortoise Pathwalker, but I was having trouble with maneuver selection, but this made my day.

[ErrantX]

Are you lifting Broken Blade's discipline restrictions, or the restrictions from the individual maneuvers?

Specific maneuvers still have unarmed/discipline weapon reqiurements, but not all of them do. There are many more maneuvers usable with your crazy greataxe/siege cannon hybrid now. However, some will still require you to punch folk or use a discipline group weapon.


Godsend! I wanted to try a Scarlet Throne/Iron Tortoise Pathwalker, but I was having trouble with maneuver selection, but this made my day.

This is possible now. :smallbiggrin:

-X

[Greenish]

Godsend! I wanted to try a Scarlet Throne/Iron Tortoise Pathwalker, but I was having trouble with maneuver selection, but this made my day.Well, the old text prevented using a shield in the offhand when using Scarlet Throne strikes, so you could take Imp. Shield Bash and use the strikes with the shield, since that wasn't forbidden. :smalltongue:

[ErrantX]

Well, the old text prevented using a shield in the offhand when using Scarlet Throne strikes, so you could take Imp. Shield Bash and use the strikes with the shield, since that wasn't forbidden. :smalltongue:

If you wanted to be pedantic, yes :smalltongue:

Well you can shield fight with Scarlet Throne, just don't expect to see any specific shield bashes from it. That's an Iron Tortoise realm. Scarlet Throne still will work best (IMO) Einhander or Zweihander. But I'm sure you guys will come up with better uses, you guys and gals always do surprise me! :smallwink:

-X

[Anlashok]

From a mechanics perspective I'm happy, more options are always better.

From a flavor one I liked the idea of ST being all about the duelist or two hander and the change also makes the warder archetype a little less cool.

Though, being able to use a greatsword as a IT/BB discipline weapon is still pretty nifty I suppose.

Still wish it was Warden instead though, that's probably my biggest complaint about the entire book. T

[facelessminion]

So... How would the styles mesh best with a shield champion brawler?

[Greenish]

Well you can shield fight with Scarlet Throne, just don't expect to see any specific shield bashes from it. That's an Iron Tortoise realm.Or Broken Blade. Flurry those shield bashes with Flurry Strike series, or use your own shield to break the enemy's with Iron-Breaking Palm.

[Sartharina]

I didn't even notice the "no Shield" requirement when building my namesake Catfolk Iron Tortiose/Scarlet Throne Warlord to be the quintessential Sword and Board fighter. (Actually, I have her starting with maneuvers from ALL warlord disciplines, changing out Solar Wind for Iron Tortoise through a discipline. I'm gonna be making a Sekhmet-like Solar Wind warlord later, though.) - Iron Tortoise for controlling the battlefield around her, and Scarlet Throne for lashing out and killing people with her sword. She's really shaping up to resemble a PnP translation of my Conqueror from Titan Quest, which is always a good thing.

All in all, this book is really making me come back to Pathfinder from 5e. But I hate Pathfinder Core.

[Seerow]

Is there an expected release date for the physical book? Don't much care for PDFs, especially for content that is as reference intensive as maneuvers.

[Novawurmson]

So... How would the styles mesh best with a shield champion brawler?

Broken Blade for unarmed/close weapons, Iron Tortoise for shields. Warder gets both of them.

[Anlashok]

Broken Blade for unarmed/close weapons, Iron Tortoise for shields. Warder gets both of them.

And remember that all flavors of shield (excluding tower and the shield champion's nonexistent medium shield) count as close weapons.

[Larkas]

Still wish it was Warden instead though, that's probably my biggest complaint about the entire book. T

Weirdly, that's my problem with the book so far too, though I don't like the names of lots more stuff. Most discipline names sound weird to me, and to a much lesser extent so do the base classes. (Stalker feels more monk than ninja to me, and warder should definitely be warden. Warlord makes the character sound too grand, and is better left as a title.)

Now, I don't HATE the names. I just don't care about them.

Still, that's pretty minor. I like the crunch of what I see. :smallsmile:

[jamieth]

A question that has to do less with the PoW specifically and more with PF rules in general, but relevant to a character I'm considering: can Broken Blade maneuvers that specifically do unarmed damage (Cartwheel Axe Kick et cetera) be used while TWFing with daggers? (I don't mean attacking with daggers on the same round, of course; the question is, can I even use unarmed attacks with both hands full?)

[Sayt]

My first instinct is to say "Of course you can, they're called out as kicks", but I think there's an annoying dev comment somewhere saying that only monk's can make unarmed strike's that aren't punches. A reasonable GM will hopefully let you do it anyway.

However, if you have an unreasonable GM, you'll want the Lightning Swap feat, which lets you draw and sheath weapons as free actions.

[jamieth]

Yep, I learned not to trust common sense when it comes to D&D rules :-) Anyway, further reading states it isn't even relevant, since Thrashing Dragon explicitely permits dual-wielding fists.

Besides, unarmed Thrashing Dragon/Broken Blade build is what Steelfist Commando made for, I believe.

[malonkey1]

My first instinct is to say "Of course you can, they're called out as kicks", but I think there's an annoying dev comment somewhere saying that only monk's can make unarmed strike's that aren't punches. A reasonable GM will hopefully let you do it anyway.

However, if you have an unreasonable GM, you'll want the Lightning Swap feat, which lets you draw and sheath weapons as free actions.

That's a cool image, though. You spin through the air, laying the smack down on a guy, then out of nowhere two knives come out and slice through him.

[ErrantX]

Broken Blade for unarmed/close weapons, Iron Tortoise for shields. Warder gets both of them.

I 2nd this; in my at home beta game where I was testing this stuff, my friend made a terrifying warder who did this. He was a beast! Captain America-level beast.


A question that has to do less with the PoW specifically and more with PF rules in general, but relevant to a character I'm considering: can Broken Blade maneuvers that specifically do unarmed damage (Cartwheel Axe Kick et cetera) be used while TWFing with daggers? (I don't mean attacking with daggers on the same round, of course; the question is, can I even use unarmed attacks with both hands full?)

I'm going to say yes, because 1) I've never agreed with that dev decision about Monks only being able to kick someone, that's ludicrous and 2) The maneuver says you kick someone, so unless you have a chainsaw foot, you're fighting unarmed with your kick. The style is intended for that sort of hijink, so kick away with your hands full.

-X

[Snowbluff]

If you wanted to be pedantic, yes :smalltongue:

Well you can shield fight with Scarlet Throne, just don't expect to see any specific shield bashes from it. That's an Iron Tortoise realm. Scarlet Throne still will work best (IMO) Einhander or Zweihander. But I'm sure you guys will come up with better uses, you guys and gals always do surprise me! :smallwink:

-X

I think the real problem is that if I am optimizing survivable Tumble-Lord, Leaping Spirit Stance will stack with a mithril buckler, and will provide a bonus to reflex.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Is it on the PFSRD yet? Normally I'm fine with preordering DSP's stuff but on this one I'm a bit more inclined to peruse first and see if I like it.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is it me or is the Dervish Defender Archetype for the Warder a bit front-loaded? Getting TWF, Defensive Focus, TWD and Aegis all at level 1? Unless the PFSRD is missing stuff (which is quite likely now that I think so).

For the record I don't have the PDF (yet).

[malonkey1]

Is it me or is the Dervish Defender Archetype for the Warder a bit front-loaded? Getting TWF, Defensive Focus, TWD and Aegis all at level 1? Unless the PFSRD is missing stuff (which is quite likely now that I think so).

For the record I don't have the PDF (yet).

I'd see if that's accurate, but I'm away from my preferred computer and Windows 8's Reader application (not an app, an application, dammit), is terrible.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thank you, because I really want to play one (going into Mage Hunter eventually) and I need to know to try and get it approved by the DM.

[malonkey1]

Alright, Dervish Defender gets TWF and Two-weapon defense at level 1, Dervish Defense (make an AoO against a successfully countered attack) at level 4 (replace tactical acumen), Shield of Blades (while dual-wielding, add 1/2 Aegis to AC) at level 6 (replaces Clad in Steel), Grace of Blades (dual-wielding weapons step up damage dice) at level 15 (replaces Steel Defense), and their Born of Steel works when lightly armored or unarmored instead of the normal restrictions. So it's got some mid-late level stuff.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So the PFSRD is right and they don't trade anything for TWF& TWD at level 1? NEAT

Edit: Boy am I rude or what? Thank you.

[Psyren]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war

Smexy. I'll review later.

How accessible is it for someone who isn't familiar with much about ToB other than the names of things?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Is it me or is the Dervish Defender Archetype for the Warder a bit front-loaded? Getting TWF, Defensive Focus, TWD and Aegis all at level 1? Unless the PFSRD is missing stuff (which is quite likely now that I think so).

For the record I don't have the PDF (yet).The Warder does get all of that level 1. Two weapon defense is a class ability and not the feat of the same name (something I'm not too keen on). Specifically this ability:


While not all dervish defenders fight in the same manner, most do and all are extensively trained in these fighting philosophies. While wearing light armor or no armor, wielding a weapon in each hand (or using a double weapon), and not using a shield heavier than a buckler, the warder may add her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her Armor Class. She retains this bonus even against touch attacks or when flat-footed, but loses this bonus should she be rendered helpless by any means.

Do note that the archetype loses medium armor, heavy armor,and all shield proficiencies as well.

[malonkey1]

Smexy. I'll review later.

How accessible is it for someone who isn't familiar with much about ToB other than the names of things?

There's a whole section explaining it, but to be honest, the system is fairly simple in itself for the most part.

[ErrantX]

Is it me or is the Dervish Defender Archetype for the Warder a bit front-loaded? Getting TWF, Defensive Focus, TWD and Aegis all at level 1? Unless the PFSRD is missing stuff (which is quite likely now that I think so).

For the record I don't have the PDF (yet).


So the PFSRD is right and they don't trade anything for TWF& TWD at level 1? NEAT

They do trade, they trade out medium and heavy armor proficiencies, and shields too. They pay for this stuff.


Alright, Dervish Defender gets TWF and Two-weapon defense at level 1, Dervish Defense (make an AoO against a successfully countered attack) at level 4 (replace tactical acumen), Shield of Blades (while dual-wielding, add 1/2 Aegis to AC) at level 6 (replaces Clad in Steel), Grace of Blades (dual-wielding weapons step up damage dice) at level 15 (replaces Steel Defense), and their Born of Steel works when lightly armored or unarmored instead of the normal restrictions. So it's got some mid-late level stuff.

And I couldn't have said it better.

-X

[Dusk Eclipse]

I hadn't notice that it looses the armour proficiencies, but that doesn't really matter since you can have pretty high AC even at level 1; with say 14 Int/Dex and a hide armour you get 17 AC, not bad and with higher point buys (or good rolls I guess) you can probably send it to 20 if not higher.

[jjcrpntr]

Some wires got crossed between myself and Jeremy so we're gonna get it sorted. When there is a new PDF I'll try to let people know, and we're going to get that fixed before it hits print.




Any guess as to when that will be? I know it was said "sometime in the following weeks". But I'm curious as I think I have a few players that would enjoy this book.

[ErrantX]

Any guess as to when that will be? I know it was said "sometime in the following weeks". But I'm curious as I think I have a few players that would enjoy this book.

Wish I did, mate. I wish I did, I'm just as anxious as you are to get a copy of it in my hands! When I/we-as-DSP know more, I'll make sure to inform everyone.

-X

[ColossusCrusher]

Honestly my only complaint is that the page on the OGC that writes out all of the maneuvers in full detail is in urgent need of editing - some maneuvers have their descriptions on another part of the page, some names are randomly capitalized, and so on.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Honestly my only complaint is that the page on the OGC that writes out all of the maneuvers in full detail is in urgent need of editing - some maneuvers have their descriptions on another part of the page, some names are randomly capitalized, and so on.

Unfortunately, that's outside of the control of anyone but the volunteers of that site, and I'm sure Mr. Reyst will fix it as soon as he is able.

[Psyren]

Just about all the maneuvers I expected to be supernatural are, so I'm on board :smallsmile: And yeah, the PFSRD is pretty horribly formatted, so I'll just have to buy a copy, won't I?

[squiggit]

Does Deadly Agility interact with the Dervish Defender feature Grace of Blades at all? On the one hand "additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack" is vague enough that it might. On the other, Grace of Blades is a separate class feature adding bonus damage so maybe no.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't get it, if the Dervish Defender has DA and say 18 dex (low I know), 14 str and is wielding say a shortsword it should ad 1d6+4(dex)+1, I don't see the problem.

[Shinken]

Just about all the maneuvers I expected to be supernatural are, so I'm on board :smallsmile: And yeah, the PFSRD is pretty horribly formatted, so I'll just have to buy a copy, won't I?

Join us, Psyren. And together we will destroy the Sith!

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm debating whether to buy the PDF now... or wait a bit for the print version, I just hope shipping isn't too expensive.

[Sayt]

Speaking of Sith, does anyone else get a strong "Force user" vibe from the Awakened Blade PRC? Improved Uncanny dodge, precognition chess swordplay, astounding mental and martial combat capacities?

The Iconic has a glowing sword and a startburst insignia which kinda looks like the Republic insigna if you squint and turn your head?

[Dusk Eclipse]

It hasn't been uploaded to the PFSRD so I wouldn't know, but given what you said I don't think it is too far-fetched.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It, actually.. uh. Is.

...I'll go over and tell Mr. Reyst.


It's been fixed. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade)

[squiggit]

I don't get it, if the Dervish Defender has DA and say 18 dex (low I know), 14 str and is wielding say a shortsword it should ad 1d6+4(dex)+1, I don't see the problem.

Grace of Blades is a level 15 class feature that adds offhand weapon damage (including enhancements) + half strength mod to damage when you make an attack that only uses one of your weapons (the examples given are a non-TWF full attack and strike maneuvers).

[Dusk Eclipse]

It, actually.. uh. Is. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/awakened-blade)

...I'll go over and tell Mr. Reyst.

woah... wasn't expecting that.:smalleek:


Grace of Blades is a level 15 class feature that adds offhand weapon damage (including enhancements) + half strength mod to damage when you make an attack that only uses one of your weapons (the examples given are a non-TWF full attack and strike maneuvers).

Right, it says damage and deadly agility says you add your dex modifier to weapon damage, so I still don't see the problem. You should be able to add that damage too.

[stack]

Okay, so I still think the base classes are great, but rereading the casting prestige classes...they are beautiful. Now I have to pull up path of war as a benchmark whenever I am designing or evaluating a class. My only quibble is that you can get into battle Templar and blade caster easily with 3 or 4 caster class levels and 1/2 initiator levels, but not vise versa. Oh well.

[Anlashok]

Can you join more than one martial tradition?

[Shinken]

I'm debating whether to buy the PDF now... or wait a bit for the print version, I just hope shipping isn't too expensive.
Currently, I only buy books if I really love the cover, if I need to pass it around or if I can't find a digital version.
Unless they change the cover for the print release (and I don't think that's going to happen), I'm going to stick with digital. I suggest you do the same. ;)

[Jigawatts]

I see the Awakened Blade has levels 1 and 6 as its caster level void. Personally, I much prefer that progression and I really wish the Battle Templar and Bladecaster had followed suit. Having level 10 with no caster level increase almost seems like it's tempting people to intentionally not finish out the class, even with a stellar capstone available.

[ErrantX]

Does Deadly Agility interact with the Dervish Defender feature Grace of Blades at all? On the one hand "additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack" is vague enough that it might. On the other, Grace of Blades is a separate class feature adding bonus damage so maybe no.

Deadly Agility replaces Strength, it doesn't add to it. Grace of Blades in your later example of 14 Strength and 18 Dex would be 1d6 + 4 + 1, correct.


Can you join more than one martial tradition?

There's nothing in the rules that says no, I didn't write that section, but I personally would say No, you can't. Divided loyalty, and all.

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

Well personally I love the book. My only real complaint is that now I have to go back and fix my guides again, but I've been too busy with <secret POW projects> to do that. I also want to move them over to google docs so they're easier to format in the future.

[jamieth]

Another question, since I'mchaging my mind every time I read it: how many feats do human Steelfist Commando get at 1st level? 1 base, 1 human, 1 bonus and IUS? Or does IUS replace the warlord's 1st level feat as per description of Unarmed Combat?

[Shinken]

Well personally I love the book. My only real complaint is that now I have to go back and fix my guides again, but I've been too busy with <secret POW projects> to do that. I also want to move them over to google docs so they're easier to format in the future.

Please tell me it's the martial Acolyte of Skin :smallbiggrin:

[Milo v3]

I can't wait till their's a flail discipline that isn't evil. Might be able to play as Hamaza. :smalltongue:


Please tell me it's the martial Acolyte of Skin :smallbiggrin:

:smalleek:

[Greenish]

Another question, since I'mchaging my mind every time I read it: how many feats do human Steelfist Commando get at 1st level? 1 base, 1 human, 1 bonus and IUS? Or does IUS replace the warlord's 1st level feat as per description of Unarmed Combat?I believe the intent is that the first level bonus feat is traded for IUS (and later GUS), and the section about bonus feats has a copy-paste error. That would fit in with earlier versions of the PrC. (As a side note, I much preferred the old Steelfist Bravo to the commando, flavour-wise.)

[stack]

Soul hunter stalker archetype - you recover wis-mod maneuvers when you slay (defined as reducing to 0 or fewer HP)a claimed creature (under the soul claiming feature) then at level 12 get a combat insight to recover 1 maneuver when you reduce a claimed target to 0 HP or less. So...you get wis mod+1 maneuvers at 12?

Also, in the soul claiming section, it says you cannot claim a target with fewer than 1/2 HD. Does this mean 1/2 of the stalker's HD?

[Eldest]

Soul hunter stalker archetype - you recover wis-mod maneuvers when you slay (defined as reducing to 0 or fewer HP)a claimed creature (under the soul claiming feature) then at level 12 get a combat insight to recover 1 maneuver when you reduce a claimed target to 0 HP or less. So...you get wis mod+1 maneuvers at 12?

Also, in the soul claiming section, it says you cannot claim a target with fewer than 1/2 HD. Does this mean 1/2 of the stalker's HD?

It might have been intended to prevent you from carrying around a bag of rats, claiming them all, then getting free maneuvers.

[malonkey1]

It might have been intended to prevent you from carrying around a bag of rats, claiming them all, then getting free maneuvers.

Past level 2. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

It might have been intended to prevent you from carrying around a bag of rats, claiming them all, then getting free maneuvers.If so, it won't actually work. Rats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/rat/rat-common) have 1 HD.

I'm not sure PF even uses fractional HD.

[master4sword]

If so, it won't actually work. Rats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/rat/rat-common) have 1 HD.

I'm not sure PF even uses fractional HD.

It doesn't.

[stack]

If so, it won't actually work. Rats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/rat/rat-common) have 1 HD.

I'm not sure PF even uses fractional HD.

Precisely what prompted my question.

[PsyBomb]

Anyone else notice that there is some screwy stuff you can pull with Awakened Blade? Soulknife(Gifted Blade)4/Initiator3/Awakened10 can end up with a 22nd-level Soul Blade if your DM either allows you to put the Manifester Levels into the Blade, or if you use the High Power FAQ. Not sure how to stat that, really.

Couple of ways to use that combo, too, since if you finish out with an Initiator your IL ends up at 18.

[stack]

Hmm, it may actually be worthwhile to build a spear throwing character now. Spears are discipline weapons for scarlet throne, silver crane, and solar wind. Grab the ricochet weapon feat and you could be an awesome switch hitter. Add a belt of mighty hurling and you are in great shape.

[ErrantX]

Hmm, it may actually be worthwhile to build a spear throwing character now. Spears are discipline weapons for scarlet throne, silver crane, and solar wind. Grab the ricochet weapon feat and you could be an awesome switch hitter. Add a belt of mighty hurling and you are in great shape.

This makes me unreasonably happy.

-X

[stack]

This makes me unreasonably happy.

-X

Because it is an intended interaction or because someone found a nice unintended interaction? Strong, balanced, interesting unintended interactions are, in my opinion, a sign of a well designed system.

[malonkey1]

Because it is an intended interaction or because someone found a nice unintended interaction? Strong, balanced, interesting unintended interactions are, in my opinion, a sign of a well designed system.

I thought a sign of a well-designed system was just, like, a board that read "WELL-DESIGNED SYSTEM".

[jamieth]

I believe the intent is that the first level bonus feat is traded for IUS (and later GUS), and the section about bonus feats has a copy-paste error. That would fit in with earlier versions of the PrC. (As a side note, I much preferred the old Steelfist Bravo to the commando, flavour-wise.)

Hm... suddenly, the archetype loses much of its appeal. I'm pretty sure the character can be built on Thrashing Dragon alone... though I really wanted Broken Blade for fluff, Steelfist Commando's inability to gather a holy trinity of Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility and TWF at level 1 really hurts.

By the way... since Acrobatic Gambit doesn't involve using a maneuver as part of gambit itself, you can recover a maneuver through it and immediately use it while enjoying Gambit's damage bonus, right? And do it round after round?

Hm... with Dex 20 and Cha 18 (doable with 25 point buy, though at the cost of severely dumping STR and WIS), Outer Sphere Stance, Acrobatic Gambit, Swift Claws, dual-wielding short swords means 2 hits per round, each dealing 3d6+9 damage. At level 1. I love it!

Update:

I thought a sign of a well-designed system was just, like, a board that read "WELL-DESIGNED SYSTEM".

Not necessarily. There is a relatively niche game (as in, computer game) called I wanna be the Boshy which, at one point, has a sign that states, literally, "Good level design this way". The level sign points to looks like this:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8785/7iyvt.jpg

[Greenish]

Hm... suddenly, the archetype loses much of its appeal. I'm pretty sure the character can be built on Thrashing Dragon alone... though I really wanted Broken Blade for fluff, Steelfist Commando's inability to gather a holy trinity of Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility and TWF at level 1 really hurts.Can't have everything, I guess.


By the way... since Acrobatic Gambit doesn't involve using a maneuver as part of gambit itself, you can recover a maneuver through it and immediately use it while enjoying Gambit's damage bonus, right? And do it round after round?Should work, yeah.


Hm... with Dex 20 and Cha 18 (doable with 25 point buy, though at the cost of severely dumping STR and WIS), Outer Sphere Stance, Acrobatic Gambit, Swift Claws, dual-wielding short swords means 2 hits per round, each dealing 3d6+9 damage. At level 1. I love it!Assuming you succeed with the tumble check, but then again, with 20 Dex and 18 Cha (added through the gambit), you should.


The enemy can of course easily counter the strategy by dropping his weapons, thus no longer threatening area, preventing you from using the Acrobatic Gambit, so ha! :smalltongue:

[Jigawatts]

I'm really wanting to use this to play an "Elf", meaning an elven character that is a classical fighter/mage, but with all the fun new school mechanics. I'm thinking a Dervish Defender Warder, but then I cant decide if I want to take some Wizard and go Bladecaster or just jump straight into Mage Hunter.

[Larkas]

Can't have everything, I guess.

Should work, yeah.

Assuming you succeed with the tumble check, but then again, with 20 Dex and 18 Cha (added through the gambit), you should.


The enemy can of course easily counter the strategy by dropping his weapons, thus no longer threatening area, preventing you from using the Acrobatic Gambit, so ha! :smalltongue:

All the reason I needed to make an army of pixie casters/manifesters! :smallbiggrin:

[Novawurmson]

Hmm, it may actually be worthwhile to build a spear throwing character now. Spears are discipline weapons for scarlet throne, silver crane, and solar wind. Grab the ricochet weapon feat and you could be an awesome switch hitter. Add a belt of mighty hurling and you are in great shape.

They're also discipline weapons of Piercing Lance...which is definitely about spears!

[Lord_Gareth]

They're also discipline weapons of Piercing Lance...which is definitely about spears!

Nah bro, Piercing Lance isn't about spears. That would be silly.

It's the water balloon discipline.

[stack]

They're also discipline weapons of Piercing Lance...which is definitely about spears!

I'll factor that in once it is released.

[Ilorin Lorati]

If you're willing to put up with playtest rules, why wait? (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/p=43296.html#43296)

[Novawurmson]

Nah bro, Piercing Lance isn't about spears. That would be silly.

It's the water balloon discipline.

Thrown splash weapon discipline confirmed?

[malonkey1]

Thrown splash weapon discipline confirmed?

"Thrown Splash Weapon" is three words...HALF-LIFE 3 CONFIRMED.

[Milo v3]

With a name like "Piercing Lance" I would've thought it was for mounted combat rather than spears.

[Lord_Gareth]

With a name like "Piercing Lance" I would've thought it was for mounted combat rather than spears.

Piercing Lance originally only worked for mounted characters, while they were mounted. This has been/is being changed so that some maneuvers are mount-enabled or mount-enhanced.

[Milo v3]

Piercing Lance originally only worked for mounted characters, while they were mounted. This has been/is being changed so that some maneuvers are mount-enabled or mount-enhanced.

Ah, fair enough.

[Anlashok]

So, overall really liking everything. A few things I don't though

-Solar Wind doing double duty as the much-sought after archer path and the desert wind substitute. If I want to be a more traditional archer themed martial adept or something that isn't fire-based I'm SOL. Especially weird given that one of the most common DW changes was simply allowing someone to sub out the element, not allowing a PoW initiator to in any capacity seems weird.

-Double weapon support is nice, but some of the chains are a bit rough, especially for double weapon finesse which ends up looking at 7 levels of feats, nine if you want something other than a quarterstaff.

-Heal and SS. The idea of someone who uses knowledge of anatomy and medicine to be a skilled assassin is cool. But the skill could use some in-book support to make it something more than Truespeak 2.0.


I really like traditions, but I want there to be more of them. Not much else to say there but I can envision some cool concepts around things like, say, a golden lion stalker or steel serpent warder and so on.

[Greenish]

-Solar Wind doing double duty as the much-sought after archer path and the desert wind substitute. If I want to be a more traditional archer themed martial adept or something that isn't fire-based I'm SOL. Especially weird given that one of the most common DW changes was simply allowing someone to sub out the element, not allowing a PoW initiator to in any capacity seems weird.I'm kinda hoping for a non-supernatural (or at least less flashy) archery discipline, too.

A firearms-themed one would be cool too, with stuff to help with reloading and jamming guns and stuff. This might be in the works, actually?

[stack]

You could build a module out of the organizations; have a city under siege by bloody fangs, calling black thorn knights for help but there methods cause opposition from empyreal knights, while the desperate ruler spurns the defenders of the realm and something something scarlet...okay, needs work.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'm kinda hoping for a non-supernatural (or at least less flashy) archery discipline, too.

A firearms-themed one would be cool too, with stuff to help with reloading and jamming guns and stuff. This might be in the works, actually?

ErrantX and Lord_Gareth both said that the other ranged discipline, Descending Gale, has been canceled for PoW2. This is despite the best efforts to convince them otherwise. (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=3066/finish=20/start=300.html)

Maybe if they have enough commentary that asks them to try another avenue of approach to a ranged discipline, but as it sits right now we're looking at only having the one discipline going forward and seemingly no way to mitigate its glaring issues.

[Greenish]

ErrantX and Lord_Gareth both said that the other ranged discipline, Descending Gale, has been canceled for PoW2. This is despite the best efforts to convince them otherwise. (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=3066/finish=20/start=300.html)Sadness.


The thing is, there's only really two themes to hit for archery; powerful single shots (like snipers, handled by Solar Wind) and bullet/arrow spam.What about the theme of non-burning arrows?

For that matter, a slight overlap doesn't seem to be a problem when it comes to melee disciplines. "Enemy-Hitting Strike - Hit the enemy as a standard action, deal XdY extra damage, force save vs. Condition."

[Anlashok]

That's a shame, I honestly see room for a lot of design space to be explored with.

There's nothing more traditionally martial for an archer. Really-good-archer should be a perfectly valid initiator concept rather than mystic-archer. No hate against mystic archers, just sometimes I'd rather have an archer that looks more practical. Think Scarlet Throne or Iron Heart.

Course, on the other end of the spectrum there's a ton of archers in fiction that rely on trickery and acrobatics. Bam, there's a third discipline: Your maneuvers are all about high mobility and support. Debuffs and special effects galore. Like... Black Seraph without the evil/intimidation flavors and some veiled moon thrown in.

Not sure I buy the "only one or two things you can do with a bow" argument when people are just tossing out random ideas that could build into disciplines that not only stand on their own as archers, but probably stand on their own holistically as well.

Could also make a gun oriented discipline that plays with gun-specific things. black powder smokescreens, tricks with burning barrels, revolver ocelot shenanigans, throw a pile of gun-fu on top of that and shake.

Plus, again, multiple elements. What's wrong with a lightning or ice themed archer?


...Does DSP have an idea box? We could go write up a couple disciplines for them and send 'em their way.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Greenish: I understand why you're upset, but I sense more venom in your post than is really warranted. The best thing you can do is come up and suggest non-sarcastic options for disciplines that are outside the "poke them with a million holes" and "give them ONE BIG HOLE" then hope it sticks.

For example, perhaps a Lightning-based AoE discipline? It's something both outside of anything ToB/PoW has done AND outside of the traditional ranged options.

Alternatively, perhaps a discipline that's less about using the weapon and more about the concepts of meditating on its use, providing both ranged and melee options equally throughout.

[Shinken]

...Does DSP have an idea box? We could go write up a couple disciplines for them and send 'em their way.

They actually do. (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewforum/f=14.html)

[Greenish]

Okay, I admit I missed how quite a few strikes are now "melee or ranged attack" or "any attack". I'd noticed Veiled Moon had gotten into ranged combat, but so has Golden Lion, apparently. Thrashing Dragon is still sadly limited to melee strikes and ranged strikes with only capstone being "melee or ranged".

[Edit]:
Greenish: I understand why you're upset, but I sense more venom in your post than is really warranted.Maybe you're right. I didn't mean to force Fort saves (at least not hard ones), honest!

[Novawurmson]

Thrashing Dragon has several thrown weapon strikes.

[Greenish]

Thrashing Dragon has several thrown weapon strikes.…Didn't I just say so?

[Seerow]

Going to add my voice to those who would like to see enough material to make a mundane archer initiator.


I mean, even IF the only two real archery styles in all of existence were "really big shot" and "machine gun", you could get two whole disciplines out of that alone (as opposed to currently, where there are none).

With the Big Shot discipline you of course have a line of maneuvers with big a big +Xd6 damage bonus, but also stuff like auto crits, ignore all range penalties, attack rerolls, armor/DR bypass, increased crit multiplier. Stances can include stuff like a bonus for firing from hidden (or reduction in the penalty for rehiding), increased cover bonuses, ignoring of miss chance, ability to pierce walls (or at the very least Wind Wall).

For the Machine Gun spec, in addition to the obvious maneuvers that are basically the manyshot line, you can really focus on the idea of suppressive fire. Make it the mundane battlefield controller. You have maneuvers that let you dictate an area and cause penalties to anyone within it, without doing much (if any) damage. Think instead of poking one guy with 10 holes in a round, blanketing the battlefield with arrows. Get a stance or maneuver that gives bonus damage against enemies without cover against you (encouraging the theme of the suppressive fire enemies want to take cover to avoid), get Counters that let you interrupt an enemy's action with extra attacks.


Of course, there's potential for more beyond that. Add in another discipline for crazy trick shooting. Give it lots of called shot type maneuvers with a focus on delivering nasty status effects to incapacitate an enemy instead of killing them. Pull out some tricks to allow ranged knockbacks and grapples. Shoot someone in such a way that you nauseate them or blind them. On top of that there's room in the trick shooting niche for silly things like ricochet shots. Ignore Cover/Concealment, shoot around corners, hit the enemy through that 10cm hole as easily as if there wasn't a wall between the two of you.

I'd also like to see a discipline with no strikes at all, but a focus on boosts, counters, and mobility would also be something really cool to see I think, and would fit easily into an archery or melee build.




Honestly between this and a couple supernatural disciplines I could see at least half a book being dedicated to archery alone.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Big shot discipline shipped with Path of War, it's called Solar Wind.

[Shinken]

Also, you don't need a "machine gun discipline" because non-PoW archer already does the machine gun thing.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Also, you don't need a "machine gun discipline" because non-PoW archer already does the machine gun thing.

Well, Solar Wind has enough boosts and stances that work with full attacks to adequately augment a rapid-shot archer damage-wise, and when you add in special arrows there's a surprising amount of flexibility there.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be something else for archers, however. This is a great time to try and add something completely new and unique for ranged attackers; the question is "what can be given to them that can't be done adequately by combining maneuvers from multiple disciplines" and "what can't archers do anywhere else already"?

[Shinken]

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be something else for archers, however. This is a great time to try and add something completely new and unique for ranged attackers; the question is "what can be given to them that can't be done adequately by combining maneuvers from multiple disciplines" and "what can't archers do anywhere else already"?

The answer is probably debuffs and utility.
Which is something you could do with a trick arrow discipline (say - alchemy + arrows) or with a supernatural discipline, binding spirits to arrows (kinda like 4e's Seeker class).

[Greenish]

Big shot discipline shipped with Path of War, it's called Solar Wind.By "mundane", I suspect Seerow meant non-supernatural.

(Pet peeve rant: Honestly, "mundane" is for the NPCs. A master archer shouldn't be "mundane" whether she uses magic or not.)

[Novawurmson]

…Didn't I just say so?

Oh, it's the only either/or maneuver. Gotcha.

I'd like a utility ranged discipline, but I love utility/defensive disciplines in general.

[Ilorin Lorati]

By "mundane", I suspect Seerow meant non-supernatural.

I realize that, but I don't think the niche is far enough from what Solar Wind gives to be a good option for another ranged discipline. Maybe a feat that removes the Supernatural descriptor and the fire damage, but not a whole new discipline that fills the same spot as Solar Wind.

[Greenish]

Oh, it's the only either/or maneuver. Gotcha.Yeah. I brought it up mostly because if more strikes were going to be turned "melee or ranged", I'd have expected Thrashing Dragon to be one of the top candidates, since it already had both ranged and melee strikes.

Golden Lion as a ranged discipline works quite nicely, though.

[Seerow]

I realize that, but I don't think the niche is far enough from what Solar Wind gives to be a good option for another ranged discipline. Maybe a feat that removes the Supernatural descriptor and the fire damage, but not a whole new discipline that fills the same spot as Solar Wind.

You don't think that a feat that turns supernatural abilities into non-supernatural abilities will send the typical pathfinder base into a frothing rage?


There is plenty of room for a discipline that doesn't rely on heavy elemental damage. Frankly I would have thought DSP's writers were a lot more creative than falling back on the only way to do ranged combat is explicit magic.



Also, you don't need a "machine gun discipline" because non-PoW archer already does the machine gun thing.


Does non-POW archer have the capabilities I described for a machine gun discipline in Pathfinder? I know they didn't in 3.5. Because if there are ways to do real battlefield control with archery in pathfinder, as opposed to just loading up 10 arrows in one guy, I'd love to hear about them.

{Scrubbed}

[Ilorin Lorati]

Golden Lion as a ranged discipline works quite nicely, though.

Does it?

Distracting Strike (2), Roar of Battle (5), Harry the Prey (6) are the only strikes I see in the discipline at a glance that allow for ranged attacks. Kill the Wounded (3) looks it, but the actual full text describes it needing a melee attack. The boosts are nice, but are more general effects that don't really say "archer" to me, just "commander" and generally require short range or an adjacent ally.

Edit:


Does non-POW archer have the capabilities I described for a machine gun discipline in Pathfinder? I know they didn't in 3.5. Because if there are ways to do real battlefield control with archery in pathfinder, as opposed to just loading up 10 arrows in one guy, I'd love to hear about them.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

There's some options among the special ammunition and elsewhere; tanglefoot arrows, trip arrows (which are actually pretty bad), and (depending on the DM) called shots are the major ones.

[Greenish]

Does it?I meant, the ability to use (some) strikes at range works quite nicely for Golden Lion (since it's more about being a leader than smashing people anyway).

[Anlashok]

I don't really get the argument. If minor thematic overlap is such a bad thing, why not complain about PoW's three "hit really hard with a big weapon and occasionally debuff" disciplines? If your answer is something like "the similarities are only superficial, the actual disciplines differentiate themselves" then you're making my argument for me.

Frankly, either way it's undeniable that solar wind leaves a big hole both in thematics (martial archer, lightning bow, cold arrows, etc.) and mechanics(basically anything other than flaming arrow death). A feat doesn't help either because spending a feat to do the same thing with different flavor is... bad.

At the very least if they aren't going to release a proper discipline they should make black seraph and scarlet throne ranged friendly. Go 100% ranged friendly on golden lion and steel serpent too probably.

[Jigawatts]

That's a shame, I honestly see room for a lot of design space to be explored with.

There's nothing more traditionally martial for an archer. Really-good-archer should be a perfectly valid initiator concept rather than mystic-archer. No hate against mystic archers, just sometimes I'd rather have an archer that looks more practical. Think Scarlet Throne or Iron Heart.
I agree, this is actually what I wish the first/base archery discipline had been more like.


For example, perhaps a Lightning-based AoE discipline?
Good god, yes please. Make it melee or ranged. Yummy lightning.

[Greenish]

Hmm, while I'm still not thematically fan of warlord getting Solar Wind, I'd have to actually stat up an archer with the various disciplines to see how it'd click. After all, even ol' Warblade made for a decent archer with his boosts.

Or Xena instead of archer, since Chakram is a discipline weapon for, well, almost all the disciplines (8 out of 11).

[Ilorin Lorati]

Jigawatts... Lightning... never woulda think it.

[Shinken]

Does non-POW archer have the capabilities I described for a machine gun discipline in Pathfinder? I know they didn't in 3.5. Because if there are ways to do real battlefield control with archery in pathfinder, as opposed to just loading up 10 arrows in one guy, I'd love to hear about them.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I have no idea why you're being so passive-aggressive, but if you want to discuss archery in Pathfinder, I think you should research a bit about archery in Pathfinder.

[ErrantX]

I don't really get the argument. If minor thematic overlap is such a bad thing, why not complain about PoW's three "hit really hard with a big weapon and occasionally debuff" disciplines? If your answer is something like "the similarities are only superficial, the actual disciplines differentiate themselves" then you're making my argument for me.

Frankly, either way it's undeniable that solar wind leaves a big hole both in thematics (martial archer, lightning bow, cold arrows, etc.) and mechanics(basically anything other than flaming arrow death). A feat doesn't help either because spending a feat to do the same thing with different flavor is... bad.

At the very least if they aren't going to release a proper discipline they should make black seraph and scarlet throne ranged friendly. Go 100% ranged friendly on golden lion and steel serpent too probably.

To be fair, I wanted another ranged and another tactical discipline, but Gareth and da Boss vetoed; Gareth because of discipline bloat and da Boss due to too many disciplines.

That being said, you could be an effective archer and never take a Solar Wind maneuver. There are a lot of maneuvers that can be used with a bow that have nothing to do with Solar Wind; Solar Wind just simply does it better. Golden Lion has several maneuvers, a lot of Veiled Moon too. Riven Hourglass. Crane. There's more in there too. You just have to read the maneuver's limits. No, Scarlet Throne is not one of them, neither is Tortoise, Fury, or Blade. Dragon has a few thrown, so does Serpent. And no, I don't feel that bad. There are more ways to fight in melee then there are at range, and that's just the truth in d20. I can throw, I can bow, or I can shoot. That's it. Melee? I can charge, I can two-hand, two weapon, single weapon, sword and board, mounted. And those combine to make new methods. Ranged? I can't throw a bow and be effective.

As far as the elemental thing; honestly, I can't please anybody on that one. I was chided into giving it fire damage because of all the descriptive text indicated hot / fire / flame etc and that it did too much damage; if it did FIRE damage however, it would be resisted easier and thus it would be reduced and balanced. I do so; internet explodes with hate that it does fire damage. Like seriously. That's another reason why I wanted to do Descending Gale, because I could please no one with Solar Wind. So crying out that you want a lightning bow, or cold arrows or whatever but think a feat is bad design? I agree, I vetoed the feat personally, and I said, "Just change the damage type then. It's not that big of a deal." Because it's not. But again, it was the product of nobody liking whatever I did, so I stayed with the fire damage on like, 1/3 of it, and left the rest alone. If you want to change the damage type and say, "I'm not using Solar Wind, but Lightning Storm." and have a bow that fires lightning damage instead? Go nuts. It's really okay. Maybe we'll have a sidebar in PoW2 or something, who knows?

Also, I had planned a firearm discipline called Smoking Tempest, and then Gale and Tempest were gonna get mashed into Tempest Gale, and then scrapped all together. Personally, I hate the firearms rules. I think they're just bad personally (but I've never felt anyone's done them right in a d20 game). That said, I know a lot of people like them so, let's do it. I think since Seraph and Crane, which were going to go into PoW2 got put into PoW1, and we added Mithral Current, that leaves enough design space to fit in -one- discipline. If I had to choose? Another ranged discipline with tactical options, a Tempest Gale, that didn't care about the ranged weapon you used, just that it had a range increment. Nothing firearm, thrown, bow or crossbow specific. But disciplines take up a ton of room in a book. So I dunno. I'm condensing down four elemental disciplines into -one- discipline and changing their focus as well to make Flux. That's difficult.

It's also really late and I'm tired. Talk amongst yourselves, I'll be back after I sleep.

-X

[Greenish]

The firearms rules are fairly terrible, which is why I was wishing for a firearms discipline (that'd make guns usable for classes that don't rhyme with "swinger").

[ErrantX]

The firearms rules are fairly terrible, which is why I was wishing for a firearms discipline (that'd make guns usable for classes that don't rhyme with "swinger").

I don't think it can be fixed without scrapping and starting over. That's the truth. Only one class does guns worth beans, and it does them too well and no one else can really use them at all. It's just badly implemented. We do what we can though, because we're not able to fix the big stuff and we're not really trying to either.

-X

[Seerow]

To be fair, I wanted another ranged and another tactical discipline, but Gareth and da Boss vetoed; Gareth because of discipline bloat and da Boss due to too many disciplines.


Like others have already said, I don't get this. If more of the disciplines were universal, I could see it. But when so many disciplines are melee focused, I don't see how it's discipline bloat to add a couple supporting a completely different archetype.

Also I'm surprised to hear that bloat is such a big concern, since one of the things that I noticed early on was Path of War seemed to be very focused on providing a lot of new disciplines (with mechanics for changing out disciplines available for a given class), rather than making set of broad disciplines and expanding upon those in future work. Given the earlier design direction, I expected we'd be seeing a lot of new disciplines coming out on a regular basis, with a new discipline for PoW being more equivalent to a themed suite of abilities than a new spell school.


I have no idea why you're being so passive-aggressive, but if you want to discuss archery in Pathfinder, I think you should research a bit about archery in Pathfinder.

The whole "go read my post" may have been passive aggressive, but seriously I laid out a number of things I'd like to see a rapid fire discipline be able to accomplish, and thus far I have still seen no indication that anything close to that is possible in pathfinder. So when I see "machine gun spec already exists" I'm reading that as someone who didn't read my post and is talking about rapid shot/multishot/whatever, and not any of the things I actually brought up in my post. The closest thing mentioned so far is tripping/tanglefoot arrows, and that's a farcry away from being able to suppressive fire an area, use ranged counters, and so on (and probably closer to the sorts of things I'd expect in a more trick shot style discipline).

If there actually is something in pathfinder that makes those sorts of things possible, please tell me about it. I'm asking this not as a rhetorical point, but because if they do exist I want to know. But, I'm not going to waste a few days digging through a dozen pathfinder splat books for something that in all likelihood doesn't actually exist when there are people I am talking to who can answer off the top of their heads.

[ErrantX]

Like others have already said, I don't get this. If more of the disciplines were universal, I could see it. But when so many disciplines are melee focused, I don't see how it's discipline bloat to add a couple supporting a completely different archetype.

Also I'm surprised to hear that bloat is such a big concern, since one of the things that I noticed early on was Path of War seemed to be very focused on providing a lot of new disciplines (with mechanics for changing out disciplines available for a given class), rather than making set of broad disciplines and expanding upon those in future work. Given the earlier design direction, I expected we'd be seeing a lot of new disciplines coming out on a regular basis, with a new discipline for PoW being more equivalent to a themed suite of abilities than a new spell school.

I should go to bed.

I agree with you, but there are more options as far as spells and powers go then there are "I hit this dude with this thing". We try to make it interesting, but the more we do the more power creep we inject too. Bloat's a concern from a logistics standpoint. We can only fit so much into something we intend to put on paper. Beyond what's coming out in PoW2, I don't know what we've got planned and I'm the one in charge of the development end. I've gotta wait to hear from the financial side that we're good to do more before I can say, "Yes, we're doing more officially." Gareth's taking the reigns on Book 2 creatively and I'm taking more of a backseat role, but we've got two more writers instead of just two of us and we're all having to do less work. That's great for us, good for you too. I'm hoping that when I get my sections done, we'll have a completed book much faster than I did on what was basically just me plus the stuff Gareth did for Martial Traditions and QC'ing my work all the time to make sure I wasn't doing something crazy. It goes both ways on PoW2 (us QCing each other, plus Nova and Elric).

End of the day, more content will exist if more financial incentive is given. I'd love to release another book with 11 disciplines in it, but we've gotta make sure we have room for three more classes and 6-9 more disciplines that we're already putting in now. I'd love to then release an Ultimate PoW and PoW: Augmented books where we focus on individual classes and create a new unique discipline only for them, and do more archetypes, feats, and prestige classes that work only for them. We're on our way there, but we're just not there yet. I don't want to get any further out of line then I probably already am, but really it depends on you guys. If the demand is there, we're there to work it out. If the demand isn't, then we move on to other projects that the demand IS there for. I'm working on a soulknife project now too! Gareth's worked on several sourcebooks over the last year.

I'm rambling now, but to close, we're all a team here. The writers and developers, the fans, all of us. We need each other, and we'll make as much content for PoW as we can. After that? Well, there's always the next great idea!

-X

[Milo v3]

Wait, so Riven Hourglass is going from 3.5e Homebrew to PF Thirdparty, didn't notice this before. Cool.

[Novawurmson]

All of this is making me think about going back through Sleeping Goddess and allowing some ranged attacks with it. Eternal Guardian deals pretty heavily with melee, but I think I can see it for SG.

[Jigawatts]

I know this is cart way before the horse, but would you call it "Ultimate Path of War"?

Because I really like the sound of "Advanced Battle Guide".

[Ilorin Lorati]

Let me preface this by saying that I've never been mad or angry at you for doing what you do or making decisions that I don't agree with. My willingness to try and talk and describe the problems that I have is a testament to the respect I have for Dreamscarred Press and your work in particular - you shouldn't get frustrated because I see issues and want to make an argument as to why I think they're issues and not just downsides to a discipline or combat style.


I agree, I vetoed the feat personally, and I said, "Just change the damage type then. It's not that big of a deal." Because it's not. But again, it was the product of nobody liking whatever I did, so I stayed with the fire damage on like, 1/3 of it, and left the rest alone. If you want to change the damage type and say, "I'm not using Solar Wind, but Lightning Storm." and have a bow that fires lightning damage instead? Go nuts. It's really okay. Maybe we'll have a sidebar in PoW2 or something, who knows?

There's one problem with simply telling people "change it, it's not a big deal" when you only say that in a thread that not even a tenth of the people that actually buy your book will read. If the sidebar you mentioned was right smack in the middle of the Solar Wind Discipline I'd agree, but as PoW1 is the only book right now, it's the one that's important, it's tacitly saying "this is how it is", and a great number of DMs don't like to do house rules off the cuff like that - even when they allow certain groups of 3pp. Dreamscarred Press is very highly considered in many circles, and your RAW stands up just as strong as Paizo's RAW, and in many cases even stronger.

So yeah - I certainly have a feat that allows for cold damage Solar Wind, same as I'm changing the limitation to Mage Hunter casting to allow for the other mental stats through Martial Training. But that's not what the majority of groups will do. The majority of groups, without a cue to say it's okay in the source material will say "well ****" and never think about the option, leaving Solar Wind more susceptible than any other discipline to immunity and heavy resistance.

That's why I still think a feat would be a good idea. Not one to wholesale change the discipline's element; that's simply patching a band-aid over the problem. A feat that was designed to give the option above and beyond what they already had when they prepare maneuvers by letting them choose to deal cold damage on ones they choose to do cold damage on and fire damage on the others - and isn't giving options the point of feats?

In the case of having Solar Wind do more damage to pass through resistance, in hindsight that's actually a pretty good reason to have a second discipline or a way to bypass resistance rather than increasing the damage to do so. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20. C'est la vie.

And as an aside, you should definitely look into the Tempest soul from Rift if you want to see something off the wall that can be done with lightning-based ranged combat.

[Shinken]

After much thinking, I think we're fine with what we have now regarding ranged disciplines. Archery in general is very strong in Pathfinder already - it didn't need a boost from Solar Wind and doesn't need yet another boost from another discipline. A few maneuvers from other disciplines are usable as ranged attacks as well. I really don't think there is reason to complain, specially after ErrantX has explained that if he had more space, he would do more ranged disciplines anyway.

PoW not only acts as power creep for Pathfinder, it presents power creep for ToB. We really shouldn't encourage more, IMHO.

Also, I'd like to thank ErrantX for coming here and being so thoughtful with everyone regarding this discussion. Sometimes we come out too strong on these guys - we have to remember they are trying to do their best to give us all a great product for our shared interests.

Knowing new disciplines are more or less off the table for PoW2, though, I have a few questions:
1) Is the Pharaoh going to be in PoW2 or is it going in the veilweaving book?
2) PoW is really light in world-building. One of the best things about the psionics games is that it explains where it comes from, who uses it, so and so. Even the firearms rules have differences for making it more or less rare. We don't have anything like that for PoW yet. I understand why you did it this way - space, trying to avoid the wuxia brand from ToB, etc. However, is something similar being prepared for PoW2?
3) No traits at all show up in PoW. Can we expect some in PoW2?
4) I remember reading somewhere we would be getting magical items in PoW. Where they moved to PoW2 or was the idea dropped?
5) I think a process to research new maneuvers would be very cool. I don't think it was mentioned before, but is that a possibility? It shouldn't take much space, I believe.
6) What about that martial Acolyte of the Skin? (I'm never gonna stop asking :tongue:)

[stack]

I believe the pharaoh and the empty pyramid discipline will be released as an Akashic product.

Regarding archery, I do like how many silver crane maneuvers work, plus bows are a discipline weapon, so solar wind/crane makes a good magic archer. In general I like the idea of opening more maneuvers in other disciplines to allowing ranged attacks. As for types of archers, the marksman shows three, big shot, lots of shots, and trick shots.

On my wish list is replacing the entire spellcasting system with something that works like maneuvers, but that won't be anytime soon.

[Greenish]

So, in PoW2, there'll be three classes: harbinger, zealot, and mystic, and 6-9 new disciplines. I've lost what notes I had on harbinger, but here's some disciplines:



Discipline
Classes
Weapons
Skill
Tradition


Eternal Guardian
Zealot
hammers, heavy blades, polearms
Intimidate



Sleeping Goddess
Zealot
flails, heavy blades, monk, spears
Autohypnosis



Mithral Current
Warder*, Warlord*
light blades, heavy blades, polearms
Perform (Dance)



Piercing Lance
Warder*, Warlord*
polearms, spears
Ride



Cursed Razor
Harbinger, Warder*
heavy blades, light blades, spears
Spellcraft
Yes.


Shattered Mirror
Harbinger, Mystic
heavy blades, light blades, close
Craft (Glassmaking, Painting, Sculpture, Sketching)



Riven Hourglass






Eternal Flux







So I guess if you like polearms, you're in luck.

[PsyBomb]

Regarding variety in ranged combat:

I believe that this can be fixed without the application of a new Discipline. I don't have the PDF or book just yet, but what about a feat/archetype/PrC/trait/enchantment/etc that specifically overrides the weapon limitations, allowing a ranged combatant to utilize disciplines otherwise limited to Melee at, say, half of their first range increment? The furthest I can think of that this will get to is about 150-ish feet.

This is just a rough idea, I can see it being more limited than that once I give the entire thing a more thorough read, but you get the drift.

[ErrantX]

Regarding variety in ranged combat:

I believe that this can be fixed without the application of a new Discipline. I don't have the PDF or book just yet, but what about a feat/archetype/PrC/trait/enchantment/etc that specifically overrides the weapon limitations, allowing a ranged combatant to utilize disciplines otherwise limited to Melee at, say, half of their first range increment? The furthest I can think of that this will get to is about 150-ish feet.

This is just a rough idea, I can see it being more limited than that once I give the entire thing a more thorough read, but you get the drift.

Too many maneuvers have too many specific systems that would make a feat such as this highly difficult to make appropriate. A handwave yes you can Iron Tortoise or Primal Fury with a bow, or Thrashing Dragon with a crossbow? Just kind of weird and hard to balance. Keep the disciplines where they are, they're designed in such a way to as to be a comprehensive martial art. You can't use Kung Fu with a machine gun, but you could design a martial art around using a gun (see Equilibrium). See?

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

So, in PoW2, there'll be three classes: harbinger, zealot, and mystic, and 6-9 new disciplines. I've lost what notes I had on harbinger, but here's some disciplines:



Discipline
Classes
Weapons
Skill
Tradition


Eternal Guardian
Zealot
hammers, heavy blades, polearms
Intimidate



Sleeping Goddess
Zealot
flails, heavy blades, monk, spears
Autohypnosis



Mithral Current
Warder*, Warlord*
light blades, heavy blades, polearms
Perform (Dance)



Piercing Lance
Warder*, Warlord*
polearms, spears
Ride



Eternal Flux






Riven Hourglass







So I guess if you like polearms, you're in luck.

Cursed Razor is available to Harbinger, through a Tradition, and to an upcoming Warder archetype. Its discipline weapons are heavy blades, light blades, and spears. Its associated skill is Spellcraft.

Shattered Mirror is available to Harbinger, to the upcoming Mystic class, and may be available through Tradition and/or archetypes, though that is not yet actually confirmed. Its discipline weapons are heavy blades, light blades, and close. Its associated skill is Craft (Glassmaking, Painting, Sculpture, or Sketching).

[squiggit]

One thing I'm pleasantly surprised about is system versatility.

Now, on the surface, the classes in PoW are much more well defined than the classes in ToB. This is a good thing because... hey, actual class features. But it also looked like it might be a bad thing where a class is designed around a certain niche and therefore every member of that class is basically the same idea. Especially for the Warder and Warlord because of their more limited pool of options.

But today I put together two warders and they're basically unrecognizable as the same class.

Though on that note, dervish defender has... a lot of AC at low levels, maybe too much.

[Anlashok]

As far as the elemental thing; honestly, I can't please anybody on that one
I understand the bind there. I really do think a sidebar would be helpful. For me personally I can change anything I want for a player, but a lot of DMs like having something in the book that says they can do something.



End of the day, more content will exist if more financial incentive is given.

You can't use Kung Fu with a machine gun, but you could design a martial art around using a gun (see Equilibrium).

I put a $20 in my CD drive. Did you get it?


Don't get me wrong, I really like the book, and honestly the only houserules I'm considering are making a few more maneuvers ranged friendly and combining deadly agility and double weapon finesse (or something, not sure what I'm doing there).

[Greenish]

Does Deadly Agility work when throwing weapons?

[Fenryr]

Does Deadly Agility work when throwing weapons?

No. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17830360&postcount=1120) I had the same doubt not long ago.

[Prime32]

A 2-level bard dip for Versatile Performance could be interesting for a few builds.

Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.

The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
A Court Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/court-bard) 2/Bannerman X for instance, using Perform (oratory) or Perform (sing) for his Scarlet Throne maneuvers. It's not that useful right now since few of those combinations involve maneuvers with a lot of skill checks. With PoW2 though, you could be a warlord with Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon and Mithral Current all running on Perform (dance) checks or something.


So yeah - I certainly have a feat that allows for cold damage Solar Wind, same as I'm changing the limitation to Mage Hunter casting to allow for the other mental stats through Martial Training. But that's not what the majority of groups will do. The majority of groups, without a cue to say it's okay in the source material will say "well ****" and never think about the option, leaving Solar Wind more susceptible than any other discipline to immunity and heavy resistance.

That's why I still think a feat would be a good idea. Not one to wholesale change the discipline's element; that's simply patching a band-aid over the problem. A feat that was designed to give the option above and beyond what they already had when they prepare maneuvers by letting them choose to deal cold damage on ones they choose to do cold damage on and fire damage on the others - and isn't giving options the point of feats?Thematically, I'm not too fond of a "change the element" feat compared to just letting players choose an alternate version of the discipline. But I do like the idea of a psionic feat that alters your Solar Wind maneuvers to match your active energy type.

[Shinken]

Thematically, I'm not too fond of a "change the element" feat compared to just letting players choose an alternate version of the discipline. But I do like the idea of a psionic feat that alters your Solar Wind maneuvers to match your active energy type.

That sounds like an excellent idea. It doesn't even need to be Solar Wind specific. Hell, it doesn't even need to be a feat - just add a sidebar saying that if you're psionic, the energy damage matches your active energy type (but a feat would work, I believe).

[Prime32]

Might also work as part of a Marksman archetype. Then there's racial stuff, like a maenad version of Solar Wind that deals sonic damage (fire attacks do not work well at sea).

[Ilorin Lorati]

Making Solar Wind tied into active energy type would be the kind of flexibility that would mean no solar wind user was ever not psionic, honestly. Maybe behind a set of damnably hard prerequisites or as an archetype though, yeah.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Making Solar Wind tied into active energy type would be the kind of flexibility that would mean no solar wind user was ever not psionic, honestly. Maybe behind a set of damnably hard prerequisites or as an archetype though, yeah.Stalker of the Four Winds?

[Raven777]

[...] but you could design a martial art around using a gun (see Equilibrium). See?

-X

Now we need a discipline all about gun-fu (http://youtu.be/4weEXyoXZKs?t=42s). Since pistols already have such a short range increment (20 ft.), this screams for some kind of melee gun & punch discipline.

[Ilorin Lorati]

At one point Chris said that they were considering a feat in PoW2 that allowed for Broken Blade to be used with Improvised Weapons to allow for a more gun-fu ish short range combat style.

[Shinken]

At one point Chris said that they were considering a feat in PoW2 that allowed for Broken Blade to be used with Improvised Weapons to allow for a more gun-fu ish short range combat style.

Pistol whip may or may not be an improvised weapon depending on your class...

[Jacob.Tyr]

Now we need a discipline all about gun-fu (http://youtu.be/4weEXyoXZKs?t=42s). Since pistols already have such a short range increment (20 ft.), this screams for some kind of melee gun & punch discipline.
Playing a Hawkguard Warder right now that uses Golden Lion strikes and boosts, some broken blade and iron tortoise for shield bashing (took buckler bash), and a few Solar Wind boosts (+30' range increment ftw). The close strikes are mostly for status effects (Shard of Iron Strike), which works really nicely. Not a combat beast in melee, though I'm working on a character rebuild and may pick up finesse and deadly agility next level to make buckler bashing more effective (str was my dump stat...). I can post a character build if people are interested, but seriously a Hawkguard is a damned good Gun-Fu class.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Pistol whip may or may not be an improvised weapon depending on your class...

Most, if not all, classes that get melee attacks through their guns don't actually define guns specifically as melee weapons. Gunslinger's Pistol-Whip lets them make an attack with the butt of their gun as a standard action, and Grammaton Cryptic's Gun Kata is worded weirdly and may or may not actually count as a weapon for maneuvers.

[Elricaltovilla]

Playing a Hawkguard Warder right now that uses Golden Lion strikes and boosts, some broken blade and iron tortoise for shield bashing (took buckler bash), and a few Solar Wind boosts (+30' range increment ftw). The close strikes are mostly for status effects (Shard of Iron Strike), which works really nicely. Not a combat beast in melee, though I'm working on a character rebuild and may pick up finesse and deadly agility next level to make buckler bashing more effective (str was my dump stat...). I can post a character build if people are interested, but seriously a Hawkguard is a damned good Gun-Fu class.

I would definitely be interested in seeing this character build.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Here's something I'd like to see a bit of discussion on: what maneuvers can be used in conjunction with touch spells? I know Bladecaster has Bladecaster's Strike - I'm more asking about casting and holding a touch spell one round then initiating a maneuver off that charge on the next. I know you're counted as armed while holding a charge, but in many (most? all?) cases a melee attack is specifically not a melee touch attack, which would leave only maneuvers that say any attack as available for this thought process.

[squiggit]

and Grammaton Cryptic's Gun Kata is worded weirdly and may or may not actually count as a weapon for maneuvers.
RAI they're supposed to essentially function as light maces. RAW gets icky because they're neither light and probably improvised

[Shinken]

Most, if not all, classes that get melee attacks through their guns don't actually define guns specifically as melee weapons. Gunslinger's Pistol-Whip lets them make an attack with the butt of their gun as a standard action, and Grammaton Cryptic's Gun Kata is worded weirdly and may or may not actually count as a weapon for maneuvers.

Yes - and limiting it to improvised weapons, the two classes that are most connected to hitting things in melee with a gun wouldn't be able to make use of the discipline.
If the point is gun-fu, 'hitting things with a gun in melee' should be a discipline weapon. Improvised weapons are a lot broader than that, which ends up with a Jackie Chan vibe. Not a bad thing per se - but not gun-fu.

[Togath]

Does a dervish defender's two weapon fighting bonus feat require the character to meet the prerequisites?
If it doesn't require a high dex... How well do you think a high strength duel wielder build would work?

[Greenish]

Does a dervish defender's two weapon fighting bonus feat require the character to meet the prerequisites?
If it doesn't require a high dex... How well do you think a high strength duel wielder build would work?Aside from never getting more than one off-hand attack, and having lower AC, initiative, ref saves, and Acrobatics skill than Dex-based one, it shouldn't be too bad.

[Feint's End]

Does Deadly Agility work when throwing weapons?

As has been mentioned it doesn't.

There is a psionic feat though which adds dex to damage when throwing. Appropriately the name is deadly throw (IIRC). You need to maintain psionic focus though making it necessary to have the psionic subtype.

[Togath]

Trying to decide...
Two weapon fighting, or... Something else for a steelfist commando?
I do have permission from my gm to switch out a discipline for silver crane, if that aids things any.

[Greenish]

Trying to decide...
Two weapon fighting, or... Something else for a steelfist commando?
I do have permission from my gm to switch out a discipline for silver crane, if that aids things any.Depends on what you want. Two-handing is good, obviously (temple sword is basically a longsword that's also a monk weapon), and sword'n'board works okay, though since you don't have shield proficiency, you'll need a MW light shield (so as to have no ACP) and can't get Imp. Shield Bash. Ranged with longbow is also a solid option, since Silver Crane, Steel Serpent, and Golden Lion all have maneuvers that can be used ranged (in addition to Solar Wind, obviously).

[Togath]

I hadn't thought of trying a bow with it... Could definitely be fun ^_^ (and as a plus, I'll be threatening nearby spaces due to the unarmed strikes)
Should I invest in strength for compound bows, or rely on deadly aim/maneuvers for damage?

[Greenish]

I hadn't thought of trying a bow with it... Could definitely be fun ^_^ (and as a plus, I'll be threatening nearby spaces due to the unarmed strikes)
Should I invest in strength for compound bows, or rely on deadly aim/maneuvers for damage?Depends on what your stats and pointbuy look like, but martial adepts are unlikely to have spare points for what's probably not even tertiary stat.

[Togath]

20 point buy, with human as the race.

something like this look decent? Should I move the str points back to wis?;
12 str
14+2 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
16 cha

edit: though I was going for silver crane for some of the melee only moves...
Is two weapon fighting worth considering for a steelfist commando? And would a two handed build work with their unarmed strike?(never been sure how unarmed strike would interact with things like power attack and... whatever else a two handed fighter uses)

[Greenish]

It's not too bad. You could also dump Strength and grab Weapon Finesse, if you have feats to spare.

[Edit]: Steelfist Commando is excellent for TWF, and I'm quite sure PoW intends unarmed strikes be two-weapon-fightable, but by default they aren't (since you only have one "unarmed strike").

[Togath]

Actually, you can use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. A creature's whole body is usable for them, so they can always be used as an offhand attack.
I may try two weapon fighting... How far down the chain should I go? Will I actually be using enough full attacks to see any use from the later feats?

As for the two handed style thing with unarmed attacks... Does it work?

[Greenish]

Actually, you can use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. A creature's whole body is usable for them, so they can always be used as an offhand attack.Well, "unarmed strikes" aren't made by just any body part in PF. Unless you're a monk (etc.) it's just fists and feet, I seem to recall. Stupid, but there you go.

As for using them as an offhand attack, yeah, obviously you can do that. What I meant was two-weapon fighting with just unarmed strikes.

[Edit]: You apparently can TWF with unarmed strikes. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qie)

[jamieth]

So... I'm still pondering my Thrashing Dragon Warlord, and here's what I'm getting, feat-wise:

1Weapon Finesse
HumanDeadly Agility
Warlord 1Two-Weapon Fighting
3Dodge
5Quick Draw
Warlord 6ITWF
7Wind Stance
9Mobility
Warlord 10Spring Attack
11GTWF
13Lightning Stance
Warlord 14
15
17
Warlord 18
19

So... is there anything particularly obvious I'm forgetting?

[Greenish]

Steelfist Commando might be better for TWF, but it's not a big difference.

Spring Attack is bad, bad, bad. Doubly so for TWF. Its prerequisites aren't any good, either. You want to do that, take Martial Charge and Tactical Rush thrice, for example. Could pick up Discipline Mastery, too, it's pretty sweet.

[jamieth]

@martial charge: See, that's what I was talking about when I said "particularly obvious" :-)
@Tactical Rush: well, there's gonna be some maneuvers I won't prepare anyway...
@Spring Attack: I keep forgetting it isn't a standard action attack, and therefore isn't compatible with maneuvers...

@Commando: good in general, but fluff miss for this particular character. If there was a Broken Blade tradition, I'd take it in a heartbeat, though.

@other stuff: Lightning Swap - I really want it, if only for the fluff. "I slash the one in front of me with my blades, then throw them into the air, draw a pair if daggers, throw them at the one standing in the door, then catch the blades and stab the one behind me."

Slayer's Feint (ACG, feint with Acro check) - worth it? (Really like it fluff-wise, but Acrobatic is a tax feat)

Nimble moves & Acrobatic Steps - do they allow to charge through difficult terrain, or only move without speed reduction? (And is there a feat to charge through terrain, or is it a class ability only?)

[Psyren]

Well, "unarmed strikes" aren't made by just any body part in PF. Unless you're a monk (etc.) it's just fists and feet, I seem to recall. Stupid, but there you go.

This is false - on the same page as the FAQ you discovered: yes, a character's entire body is their unarmed strike. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd3)

[Jacob.Tyr]

I would definitely be interested in seeing this character build.
Sure, this is still being redone but here's what I'm thinking for level 5:
Stats:
Dex>Int>Con

Levels:
Gunslinger 1 (Quick Clear being the main reason for this, gunsmithing is a huge boon as well as you can make your own paper cartridges)
Warder 4 (Hawkguard)

Feats:
Level 1:
Point Blank Shot (Hawkguard)
Rapid Reload
Buckler Bash(Human)

Level 3:
Weapon Finesse

Level 4:
Deadly Agility (Bonus feat)

Level 5:
Deadly Aim

Maneuvers at level 5:
1st Level
Encouraging Roar
Pride Movement
Steady Hand
Horizon wind Lancet
Shards of Iron Strike

2nd Level
Distracting Strike
Defensive Shell - Trade out Iron Shell for this at Warder 4 if you count as an ally adjacent to yourself (I think you do by RAW)

Stances:
Stance of the Defending Shell
Snapping Turtle Stance


Breakdown:
You lack precise shot. You're also tanky, though, so you should be in the front anyway. It shouldn't be too much of an issue unless you have melee guys dog-piling your enemies in front of you. This is their bad.

Pride Movement helps you keep squishies out of the fight, or allows you to help people move in with you depending on the situation.

Encouraging Roar is pretty great all around, especially if you have any TWF allies or people with multiple attacks. Having someone else get +2 to hit and damage on two attacks is going to trump boosting your own damage by 1d6, and you give this same boost to everyone near you.

Horizon Wind Lancet is good once in awhile. Ready it if your team is mostly casters and you're the damage source.

Shards of Iron helps you control the battlefield. A staggered enemy isn't going to move and attack, and if you hit them with this and back off you're in a good spot. Pair this with pride movement to help someone else get out of danger as well.

Steady Hand is situational, but situations where you want to shoot someone 50' away are not uncommon.

Distracting Strike rules if you have teammates that can take advantage of a flat-footed enemy(read: any teammates that might roll an attack, rogues will love you). The +2d6 damage is just icing.

Defensive Shell is your counter, although Warning Roar may be nicer. I just have a -cha mod, so this seemed like the obvious choice.

Stances:
Defending shell scales and is nice, but if you have a swift action on any turn you might hit with shards of iron, switch to snapping turtle.
First level 3 stance should be Golden Commander. You stand at the front of your allies and make a flank-wall. If you took precise shot, it is now a waste. Your allies will be next to you, out of any line of fire, and you'll all flank enemies that approach. God I love this stance.


One level of monk lets you just punch instead of shield bashing, and helps your maneuver progression by upping your Initiator Level by 1 instead of just the 1/2 from Gunslinger. The bonus feat is also helpful, and you won't need Buckler Bash. Less feat intensive, and just as fun.

[Greenish]

@Commando: good in general, but fluff miss for this particular character.I hear you. I miss the old Steelfist Bravo.


@other stuff: Lightning Swap - I really want it, if only for the fluff. "I slash the one in front of me with my blades, then throw them into the air, draw a pair if daggers, throw them at the one standing in the door, then catch the blades and stab the one behind me."It's being replaced by Mixed Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/mixed-combat-combat), since the feats are so similar and Mixed Combat is already printed. Dropping Spring Attack chain (and probably Wind/Lightning Stances, they're not that great) should give you plenty of feats to play around.


Slayer's Feint (ACG, feint with Acro check) - worth it? (Really like it fluff-wise, but Acrobatic is a tax feat)You'd need to burn three feats and raise Int to 13. Probably not worth it, with decent Cha you can get good Bluff going if you burn the skill points. Not sure Feinting is worth the action cost, though.


Nimble moves & Acrobatic Steps - do they allow to charge through difficult terrain, or only move without speed reduction? (And is there a feat to charge through terrain, or is it a class ability only?)Within their limits, they should allow charging, but there should be easier ways to deal with difficult terrain (I seem to recall a 1st level hour per level spell to that effect, and fairly cheap magic boots).


This is false - on the same page as the FAQ you discovered: yes, a character's entire body is their unarmed strike. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qd3)Ah, well, that's excellent.


[Edit]: Here, the 2k gp boots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/slippers-feather-step) for difficult terrain.

[jamieth]

OK... so, dropping everything not needed, I suddenly have plenty of open slots... Now, the question is... I seem to remember a feat that allowed to throw without provoking - but the closest I can find on the SRD is Point-Blank Master, that allows to fire a single ranged weapon without provoking, but requires Weap Spec, therefore only available to Fighters. Anyway, if I'm using daggers, might as well grab Point-Blank Shot and Ricochet Shot.

[Elfkin_King]

...Riven Hourglass...
[QUOTE=ErrantX]...and we added Mithral Current/QUOTE]

O.O I didn't see those in the PDF....And now that I think about it (and double checking) the description for the PDF says "13 Martial Disciplines" whereas in the PDF there are only 11... is that a mistake?

[Greenish]

Scaling 1st level stances has some interesting intra-discipline effects. For example, compare Thrashing Dragon's 1st level Outer Sphere Stance with the 7th level Brutal Dragon's Stance. The former allows you to (eventually) deal 2d6 extra damage each hit whilst dual wielding (with no AC penalty), the latter allows you to deal 2d6+mod extra damage with -2 AC penalty. Not exactly the sort of update I'd spend a stance known for.

[Jigawatts]

Jigawatts... Lightning... never woulda think it.
Well my last name is actually Watts, and my first name starts with a J. So it's a play on my name, an allusion to my love of electricity/lightning, AND a Back to the Future reference, all wrapped into one. :smallwink:

[IAmTehDave]

So, I'm looking at the Awakened Blade PrC on the SRD, because I am absolutely in love with 3.5+ Psionics* and the Soulknife in particular.

If I were ever in a game that allowed DSP Pathfinder material, I'd have to pick up a few books (at least the PDFs) for better-edited reference** but there are two characters I'd love to try:
1) Stalker/Umbral Blade
2) Soulknife (Gifted Blade)/stalker/Awakened Blade

So, for 2, does SK4/Stalker1/Awakened Blade 10/X+5 make the most sense? Be one of the few Wis-SAD Melee characters... (Focused Offense Blade Skill. Okay, you need con too but EVERYONE needs con)
What would a good last 5 levels be for that?
For Awakened Blade, Gifted Blade manifesting only advances 2-5/7-10, but the mind blade advances 1-10. Does the +1 manifester ALSO advance the Mind Blade? (I'd assume not)
What's the "Deep Focus" feat that appears in the class description but nowhere else on the SRD? Is it supposed to be Deep Impact?
Other than Power Attack and the required-for-PRC feats, what would be some good feats to throw on this chassis?
For maneuvers: would probably focus on Veiled Moon, with some Solar Wind and Thrashing Dragon thrown in to season. (I love some of the Veiled Moon strikes. And the Ether Gate stance...)


* I'd say 3.X, but 3.0 psionics was terrible
**holy crap the PoW section of the SRD is in need of cleaning

[Togath]

Think it's worth getting weapon finesse on a hawkguard, in order to use melee only strikes?
And related: is it worth grabbing a few ranged only strikes on an otherwise melee initiator?

[Ilorin Lorati]

Think it's worth getting weapon finesse on a hawkguard, in order to use melee only strikes?
And related: is it worth grabbing a few ranged only strikes on an otherwise melee initiator?

Yes, absolutely.

[Togath]

Yes, absolutely.

Good to know ^_^

It's... proving surprisingly hard to decide on a character(trying to decide between warlord and warder for a campaign)...
Any advice for warlord gambits? Acrobatic seems like a good choice... One of the trip/disarm ones as well?

[ghanjrho]

The charge and called shot ones work well, IMHO. The latter especially, as the easiest called shots have only a -2 penalty.

The biggest problem I see with the book as is is stance progression. The 4th stance comes one level too early to make convenient use of 5th level stances*. I'd move it back one level, then maybe do the same to the 5th (IL11) stance. Make the pattern 1-2-5-9-11(or 12)-15-19.

*this particularly hard on initiators specializing in Broken Blade or Silver Crane; both of those disciplines get 5th and 6th level stances, while most disciplines are either/or.

[Axebird]

Gatecrasher Gambit is fantastic for save bombing. Pinhole Gambit likewise makes an enemy incredibly vulnerable to focus fire for a round. Sweeping Gambit is pretty nice with a trip specialist (take two AoOs with Greater Trip!), but trip still falls out of usefulness at higher levels.

Unbreakable Gambit is amazing; immediate action for Cha to an important save, lets you recover maneuvers when it isn't your turn so you can fire away with a recovered maneuver on your action, and as icing heals you quite a bit. Likely to heal most of your hitpoints at low levels- a 1st level Warlord with 16 Cha and 13 hitpoints is getting almost three quarters of their health back. You can even get a friendly neighborhood caster to throw save-enabled cantrips like daze at you out of combat to get yourself topped off for the next fight.

[Sayt]

So, I'm looking at the Awakened Blade PrC on the SRD, because I am absolutely in love with 3.5+ Psionics* and the Soulknife in particular.

If I were ever in a game that allowed DSP Pathfinder material, I'd have to pick up a few books (at least the PDFs) for better-edited reference** but there are two characters I'd love to try:
1) Stalker/Umbral Blade
2) Soulknife (Gifted Blade)/stalker/Awakened Blade

So, for 2, does SK4/Stalker1/Awakened Blade 10/X+5 make the most sense? Be one of the few Wis-SAD Melee characters... (Focused Offense Blade Skill. Okay, you need con too but EVERYONE needs con)
What would a good last 5 levels be for that?
For Awakened Blade, Gifted Blade manifesting only advances 2-5/7-10, but the mind blade advances 1-10. Does the +1 manifester ALSO advance the Mind Blade? (I'd assume not)
What's the "Deep Focus" feat that appears in the class description but nowhere else on the SRD? Is it supposed to be Deep Impact?
Other than Power Attack and the required-for-PRC feats, what would be some good feats to throw on this chassis?
For maneuvers: would probably focus on Veiled Moon, with some Solar Wind and Thrashing Dragon thrown in to season. (I love some of the Veiled Moon strikes. And the Ether Gate stance...)


* I'd say 3.X, but 3.0 psionics was terrible
**holy crap the PoW section of the SRD is in need of cleaning

My suggestion is to also take the Deadly Fist ACF. Then, take Master of many Styles monk 2 or 3, and pick up Dragon Style and Ferocity to get Wis*1.5 to damage. Pick up Fighter's Blade from UPsi to increase your effective mind blade level by 4 (Up to your HD), and for the last four levels, I suggest more stalker, to boost your initiator level.

Deep Focus is a feat released in Ultimate Psionics. It requires Psionic Body and Autohypnosis 4, and allows you to hold two concurrent psionic focuses.

As for Mind blade Enhancement, thats a bit tricky.

]If the character possessed levels in the soulknife base class, then the awakened blade counts all levels in this class as +1 to existing manifester level with regards to a soulknife’s mind blade enhancement bonus.

SO your Soulknife manifesting will advance 8/10. But your Soulknife mind blade enhancement for a Gifted Blade 4/Stalker1/Awakened Blade 10 will be equal to a 14th level Soulknife, so a +6 weapon.

Honestly, I feel the most synergistic entry to Awakened Blade is Pathwalker, mostly because of the nature of Strikes as being generally single hit per turn, and the ability of the Pathwalker to regain focus by regaining maneuvers by hitting people and spending a swift, and then having the option to blow a focus to use a counter means that you should be able to Strike+Pop Greater Psionic strike+Regain 1 maneuver+Regain Psionic Focus. Although, admittedly, Pathwalker caps at sixth level maneuvers

[IAmTehDave]

My suggestion is to also take the Deadly Fist ACF. Then, take Master of many Styles monk 2 or 3, and pick up Dragon Style and Ferocity to get Wis*1.5 to damage. Pick up Fighter's Blade from UPsi to increase your effective mind blade level by 4 (Up to your HD), and for the last four levels, I suggest more stalker, to boost your initiator level.

Deep Focus is a feat released in Ultimate Psionics. It requires Psionic Body and Autohypnosis 4, and allows you to hold two concurrent psionic focuses.

As for Mind blade Enhancement, thats a bit tricky.

SO your Soulknife manifesting will advance 8/10. But your Soulknife mind blade enhancement for a Gifted Blade 4/Stalker1/Awakened Blade 10 will be equal to a 14th level Soulknife, so a +6 weapon.

Honestly, I feel the most synergistic entry to Awakened Blade is Pathwalker, mostly because of the nature of Strikes as being generally single hit per turn, and the ability of the Pathwalker to regain focus by regaining maneuvers by hitting people and spending a swift, and then having the option to blow a focus to use a counter means that you should be able to Strike+Pop Greater Psionic strike+Regain 1 maneuver+Regain Psionic Focus. Although, admittedly, Pathwalker caps at sixth level maneuvers

Okay Deep Focus is pretty nifty. As far as Deadly Fist: Can you swap DF with Mind Daggers? Because Veiled Moon (the discipline I'd want to focus on mainly) doesn't let you use UAS - close blades (shortsword or Daggers, for Soulknife) or bust. Also: You trade free TWF or Power Attack for IUAS.

Don't have access to Pathwalker (Unless it's in a playtest packet I haven't looked at) but I feel like losing out on higher level maneuvers (OMG Lunar Penumbra, Flashing Ether Touch...) isn't worth the faster maneuver recovery. Do you regain both focuses in the same action with Deep Focus?
Oh: Stalker also gets Phantom Reach. That + say, Eclipsing Moon, seems like it lets you bounce around a lot of the battlefield. I'd play the SK/St/AB as an Initiator version of the Elocator, mostly.

Also: I kind of figured re:Gifted Blade Manifesting v. Mind Blade Enhancement. Might make it worthwhile to pick up a Crystal Hilt or two, and the increased ML trait. Actually, is there something like Practiced Manifester in PF?

Alternatively: a Stalker 10+ with a 16 IL can do possibly the most ridiculous, painful, and convoluted way to disarm someone in Pathfinder: Be in Spiritual Weapon Stance; Dual Strike > Dispersal Strike > Vaporform Crash. If they fail the will save, they take 14d6 damage, become incorporeal, and their weapon/shield/wand/staff/whatever doesn't. And then Vaporform Crash deals another 14d6 damage, turns them material again, and you turn Incorporeal at the same time. And then you get to make an AoO when they go to pick up their gear. Add in your Deadly Strike damage to both if you've crit in the past few rounds.

[Sayt]

There was a google-doc Beta Pathwalker around somewhere, but I don't have it at hand, or know what changes it underwent when printed, but otherwise it's in the PoW main document under Psionoc archetypes.

Also, Veiled moon doesn't require light blades/double weapon/spears, it merely incentivises them by increasing damage and save DCs. If you have feats free, you can pick up weapon group adaptation to make unarmed strikes discipline weapons.

Also, it occurs to me that a mind blade might not have a place in fighter weapon groups without the emulate weapon blade skill.

[Togath]

Can a whip be used with solar wind maneuvers?

[Milo v3]

There was a google-doc Beta Pathwalker around somewhere, but I don't have it at hand, or know what changes it underwent when printed, but otherwise it's in the PoW main document under Psionoc archetypes.


What's it an archetype for? I didn't see it on the pfsrd.

[Sayt]

It's an archetype for the Psychic Warrior, it gives up two feats and two path skills, and gets up to sixth level maneuvers in two schools, chosen at level one from Broken Blade, Iron Tortoise, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind and Thrashing Dragon. It's somewhat interesting that they get only the primarily martial, less esoteric schools.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Psychic Warriors IIRC

[ghanjrho]

Okay Deep Focus is pretty nifty. As far as Deadly Fist: Can you swap DF with Mind Daggers? Because Veiled Moon (the discipline I'd want to focus on mainly) doesn't let you use UAS - close blades (shortsword or Daggers, for Soulknife) or bust. Also: You trade free TWF or Power Attack for IUAS.

Don't have access to Pathwalker (Unless it's in a playtest packet I haven't looked at) but I feel like losing out on higher level maneuvers (OMG Lunar Penumbra, Flashing Ether Touch...) isn't worth the faster maneuver recovery. Do you regain both focuses in the same action with Deep Focus?
Oh: Stalker also gets Phantom Reach. That + say, Eclipsing Moon, seems like it lets you bounce around a lot of the battlefield. I'd play the SK/St/AB as an Initiator version of the Elocator, mostly.

Also: I kind of figured re:Gifted Blade Manifesting v. Mind Blade Enhancement. Might make it worthwhile to pick up a Crystal Hilt or two, and the increased ML trait. Actually, is there something like Practiced Manifester in PF?

Alternatively: a Stalker 10+ with a 16 IL can do possibly the most ridiculous, painful, and convoluted way to disarm someone in Pathfinder: Be in Spiritual Weapon Stance; Dual Strike > Dispersal Strike > Vaporform Crash. If they fail the will save, they take 14d6 damage, become incorporeal, and their weapon/shield/wand/staff/whatever doesn't. And then Vaporform Crash deals another 14d6 damage, turns them material again, and you turn Incorporeal at the same time. And then you get to make an AoO when they go to pick up their gear. Add in your Deadly Strike damage to both if you've crit in the past few rounds.

There's a trait, psionic knack. Gives +2 ML capped at HD.

[Milo v3]

Damn... That was one of the classes I checked. Guess I'll have to wait.

[malonkey1]

So I'm waiting for my Air/Earth/Fire/Waterbending Discipline(s). :smalltongue: You could probably get away with having a single discipline and you have to pick one version, but that seems weak.

[Lord_Gareth]

So I'm waiting for my Air/Earth/Fire/Waterbending Discipline(s). :smalltongue: You could probably get away with having a single discipline and you have to pick one version, but that seems weak.

How about one discipline and you can change what element you're using in the flow of battle?

[malonkey1]

How about one discipline and you can change what element you're using in the flow of battle?

Also a cool idea.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Can a whip be used with solar wind maneuvers?

Sorry, no:


Solar Wind maneuvers may only be performed with a weapon in the bow, crossbow, or thrown weapon groups.



Also a cool idea.

I'm pretty sure Gareth just pitched Elemental Flux to you.

[Lord_Gareth]

Incidentally - just asked this on Paizo's forums, but can I fish for a bit of feedback/input on the Traditions system? That didn't get a lot of comment during the beta, and given its nature as new mechanics...and my nature as someone who continues to design stuff he hasn't designed before - I'd like to know where I went right and wrong as I progress into PoW 2's Traditions. And, possibly, beyond.

[Vhaidara]

I think the traditions are awesome. They let you customize a class to fit what you want.

Example: I frequently wanted a warblade (full BAB especially) with Setting Sun, and didn't really care for White Raven. With the traditions implemented, I would be able to make that swap, focusing more on the personal unarmed combat than on leadership skills.

[squiggit]

Traditions are beautiful.

It's what let me build two different warders that literally have nothing in common (other that int secondary).

They've got good flavor without being too intrusive and do a lot to make the classes feel more customizable. My only complaint is that there aren't more of them.

[Seerow]

I also loved the traditions. I think they're one of the best things added in Path of War.

[Vhaidara]

I also loved the traditions. I think they're one of the best things added in Path of War.

To be fair, without the other stuff added in PoW they would be pretty useless. Like maneuvers.

My favorite thing though is still that the recharge mechanics are actually in combat options now. Hell, people are downright abusing the Warlord's for level 1 damage spikes and full heals. It's beautiful.

[Seerow]

To be fair, without the other stuff added in PoW they would be pretty useless. Like maneuvers.

True, I meant in terms of features new to the old Tome of Battle system. Like you could totally take the concept of Martial Traditions and apply it straight to Tome of Battle (as you even alluded to with wanting to trade out White Raven for Setting Sun). New classes and maneuvers are basically what I expect coming into PoW, the martial traditions are something new and different, and imo the best addition made.

Hope that clarifies my point :x

[Vhaidara]

Hope that clarifies my point :x

Oh, it was clear. I was just due to go to bed two hours ago and get snarky when I'm tired.

[Sayt]

Iii just noticed the new clause in Unbreakable gambit.

"The effect in question must be a harmless effect on a failed saving throw."

This would seem to make this gambit...well, mega-nerfed? Can't be used on most necromancy effects, or most transmutation effects, I guess it still helps you with illusions and dominations, except no it doesn't, because using it turns off Force of Personality? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Or another reading is that it only works on spells of the Will/Fort (harmless) description?

[Togath]

I've been confused by that one too..

[jamieth]

Traditions are nice for sure; now the only thing I need is a Broken Blade one :-) (Well, or a sidebar explicitely stating that the traditions presented in the book are to be treated as the examples, not a definite list)

One thing I just noticed is how much easier it makes implementing homebrew disciplines, which are rather big at this forum :-)