Your familiar as your cohort...

[The Vagabond]

How would that work? Would it get a class level? What would happen if your cohort was your familiar?

[Segev]

I don't think you can validly have one be the other. Or, if you can, being a cohort doesn't give the familiar any special perks. You can have a cohort that is lower level than your maximum allowed, after all. The ECL limits are maximums, not granted by the feat to the cohort.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can't without your DM making stuff up as he goes along. You CAN get your animal companion as your familiar, but that is a specific PRC.

[Deadline]

You can't without your DM making stuff up as he goes along. You CAN get your animal companion as your familiar, but that is a specific PRC.

And you can get your special mount as your cohort too. But I don't think I've seen a way to get your familiar as your cohort.

[SiuiS]

And you can get your special mount as your cohort too. But I don't think I've seen a way to get your familiar as your cohort.

Obviously, you need to get your animal companion as your special mount and then go down both paths to get AC>familiar and mount>cohort simultaneously.

[Urpriest]

Obviously, you need to get your animal companion as your special mount and then go down both paths to get AC>familiar and mount>cohort simultaneously.

Unfortunately it works the other way. You can make a special mount count as an animal companion, not the other way around.

Hmm, though I guess you could make your special mount your cohort and your animal companion, then make your animal companion your familiar.

[ShurikVch]

For evil PC, same dragon can work as familiar, special mount, and fiendish servant

[Urpriest]

For evil PC, same dragon can work as familiar, special mount, and fiendish servant

No it can't, there's no way to combine Fiendish Servant with either of those.

[ShurikVch]

No it can't, there's no way to combine Fiendish Servant with either of those. From the Draconomicon:
Dragons as Fiendish Servants If your campaign includes blackguards, such a character can use these rules to recruit a dragon as his fiendish servant. Compare the blackguard’s character and class level to Table 3–17: Dragon Fiendish Servant Availability. If the blackguard is of sufficient level, he may select an available dragon as his fiendish servant after taking the Dragon Cohort feat.
As with a dragon special mount, a dragon fiendish servant gains special abilities at a rate based on the level at which the servant first becomes available. This means that the most powerful dragon fiendish servants don’t get all the typical abilities of a fiendish servant.
A dragon fiendish servant gains abilities much as a typical fiendish servant, though at a rate based on the blackguard character level level at which the mount first becomes available. This means that the most powerful dragon fiendish servants don’t get all the typical abilities of a fiendish servent.
Table 3–18: Dragon Fiendish Servant Abilities summarizes the details. For basic information about the terms on the table, see The Blackguard’s Fiendish Servant, page 183 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
Differences from that basic information are covered below.
Bonus HD: Treat the same as bonus HD for a regular fiendish servant, except that these are extra twelve-sided (d12) Hit Dice.
Int: The “Intelligence” column only applies to those dragons whose Intelligence score is lower than that value (that is, a dragon fiendish servant with an Intelligence higher than the given value retains its normal Intelligence).
Improved Speed: This ability applies to all of the dragon’s modes of movement, including land speed, fly speed, and even burrow speed or swim speed (if the dragon possesses one or both).
Share Spells: This ability applies only to spells that the paladin casts. The dragon can’t elect for spells that it casts on itself to also affect the blackguard.
Spell Resistance: The spell resistance gained by a dragon fiendish servant doesn’t stack with any natural spell resistance it might have. Only the higher value applies.

[Urpriest]

From the Draconomicon:

While you have to take the Dragon Cohort feat to summon one, it's not the same creature as your cohort, since there's a separate availability table. It has to be one of the dragons from the table, so it can't be combined with special mount or familiar.

[ShurikVch]

While you have to take the Dragon Cohort feat to summon one, it's not the same creature as your cohort, since there's a separate availability table. It has to be one of the dragons from the table, so it can't be combined with special mount or familiar. I was a bit incorrect. Apparently, there is no way to fit Draconic Familiar in

But, say, Wyvern can be:
1) Monstrous Animal Companion (feat, Dr#326, p.32) - level 12+
2) Dragon Cohort (Dragon Rider PrC) - ECL 9
3) Monstrous Companion (Beast Heart Adept PrC) - level 5+
4) Fiendish Servant (Blackguard PrC) - level 6+

Is there some RAW which forbid it to be the same Wyvern every time?

[Urpriest]

I was a bit incorrect. Apparently, there is no way to fit Draconic Familiar in

But, say, Wyvern can be:
1) Monstrous Animal Companion (feat, Dr#326, p.32) - level 12+
2) Dragon Cohort (Dragon Rider PrC) - ECL 9
3) Monstrous Companion (Beast Heart Adept PrC) - level 5+
4) Fiendish Servant (Blackguard PrC) - level 6+

Is there some RAW which forbid it to be the same Wyvern every time?

Yes. In each case, it has to be an unmodified Wyvern to qualify. Otherwise, you could sling the Paragon template on it as well.

[ShurikVch]

Yes. In each case, it has to be an unmodified Wyvern to qualify. Otherwise, you could sling the Paragon template on it as well. RAW? :smallconfused:

[Urpriest]

RAW? :smallconfused:

Beast Heart Adept explicitly says the monster is typical of its kind. I don't have immediate access to the Dragon issue so I can't confirm the language there. Dragon Cohort is ECL-based, so bonus HD will throw it off.

More generally, any of these give you an option to select a Wyvern. In that case, there are two possible RAW readings: either "a Wyvern" means a Wyvern typical of its kind, or it means any creature that happens to be a Wyvern. Both are equally consistent, since a Paragon Wyvern or a Fiendish Servant Wyvern or the like is not necessarily a Wyvern since in order to fully describe it you have to use more words. In this case, we look to the interpretation that's actually usable in a game, and we find that one of them allows for every template in the game to be applied to your companion and the other does not, which makes the choice pretty obvious.

[ShurikVch]

Beast Heart Adept explicitly says the monster is typical of its kind. I don't have immediate access to the Dragon issue so I can't confirm the language there. Dragon Cohort is ECL-based, so bonus HD will throw it off. OK, I can accept thing about BHA, but "Dragon Cohort is ECL-based"... Despite being very RAI-obvious, is there any RAW to prove it? Rather, I can see some disproofs: Wyvern (7 HD) and young White Dragon (9 HD) are of the same ECL (9). Same about Copper (young, 11 HD) and Red (very young, 10 HD) - ECL 12
And MAC feat from Dragon, despite being essentially expansion of Animal Companions list, works closer to 3.0 Druid rules with Animal Friendship. To get Monstrous Animal Companion, you should meet particular creature and Savage Empathy it into friendly or helpful attitude. (SE is a separate feat-prerequisite for MAC, allow to use Wild Empathy on non-animals /select the type/, and without usual -4 penalty for magical beasts)


More generally, any of these give you an option to select a Wyvern. In that case, there are two possible RAW readings: either "a Wyvern" means a Wyvern typical of its kind, or it means any creature that happens to be a Wyvern. Both are equally consistent, since a Paragon Wyvern or a Fiendish Servant Wyvern or the like is not necessarily a Wyvern since in order to fully describe it you have to use more words. In this case, we look to the interpretation that's actually usable in a game, and we find that one of them allows for every template in the game to be applied to your companion and the other does not, which makes the choice pretty obvious. Actually usable in game? :mitd:
Are you actually checked prerequisites for the Dragon Rider?
BAB +10 along ensure this class will not go online too early, but in feats it have the Leadership. Usually, if this feat actually come into play, one more übermount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) is the least of DM's worries :redcloak:

[Urpriest]

OK, I can accept thing about BHA, but "Dragon Cohort is ECL-based"... Despite being very RAI-obvious, is there any RAW to prove it? Rather, I can see some disproofs: Wyvern (7 HD) and young White Dragon (9 HD) are of the same ECL (9). Same about Copper (young, 11 HD) and Red (very young, 10 HD) - ECL 12
And MAC feat from Dragon, despite being essentially expansion of Animal Companions list, works closer to 3.0 Druid rules with Animal Friendship. To get Monstrous Animal Companion, you should meet particular creature and Savage Empathy it into friendly or helpful attitude. (SE is a separate feat-prerequisite for MAC, allow to use Wild Empathy on non-animals /select the type/, and without usual -4 penalty for magical beasts)

Actually usable in game? :mitd:
Are you actually checked prerequisites for the Dragon Rider?
BAB +10 along ensure this class will not go online too early, but in feats it have the Leadership. Usually, if this feat actually come into play, one more übermount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html) is the least of DM's worries :redcloak:

There's kind of a dramatic difference between "ubermount" and "mount with every template under the sun". And anyway, Dragon Rider is explicit that your cohort's ECL can't be higher than yours, and Monstrous Animal Companion explicitly works by adding the creatures to your list of eligible Animal Companions, and thus inherits the "typical of its kind" rules from them.

So at most, you're able to link Fiendish Companion and Dragon Rider, though since the RHD contribute to ECL you wouldn't want to anyway.

[ShurikVch]

There's kind of a dramatic difference between "ubermount" and "mount with every template under the sun". And anyway, Dragon Rider is explicit that your cohort's ECL can't be higher than yours, and Monstrous Animal Companion explicitly works by adding the creatures to your list of eligible Animal Companions, and thus inherits the "typical of its kind" rules from them.

So at most, you're able to link Fiendish Companion and Dragon Rider, though since the RHD contribute to ECL you wouldn't want to anyway. Firstly, why the "every template under the sun"? :smallconfused:
AFAIK, the only templates for various bonded helpers is fiendish (Fiendish Servant), celestial (Celestial Familiar, Exalted Companion), dark (Shadow Familiar), and pseudonatural (familiar of Alienist). Ah, also that spell (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a)... All of this is hardly game-shattering, not even fully compatible with each other (celestial/fiendish), and not so easy to combine in one decent build

Note: "animal companion", "familiar", "fiendish servant" or "special mount" are not a templates, it's CFs of their respective classes. If class description said it should be "ordinary creature" or something like that, then - OK, it doesn't possible. But if not...

Also, what you will say about such things as Cohort Special Mount (via Leadership), Devoted Tracker (feat, CAdv), and Companion Familiar (CF of Arcane Hierofant)?

Oh, and Windrider - "may designate any one mount she has previously ridden as her chosen mount"

[Urpriest]

Firstly, why the "every template under the sun"? :smallconfused:
AFAIK, the only templates for various bonded helpers is fiendish (Fiendish Servant), celestial (Celestial Familiar, Exalted Companion), dark (Shadow Familiar), and pseudonatural (familiar of Alienist). Ah, also that spell (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a)... All of this is hardly game-shattering, not even fully compatible with each other (celestial/fiendish), and not so easy to combine in one decent build

Note: "animal companion", "familiar", "fiendish servant" or "special mount" are not a templates, it's CFs of their respective classes. If class description said it should be "ordinary creature" or something like that, then - OK, it doesn't possible. But if not...

It doesn't matter that animal companion and the like aren't templates. You're arguing that a creature can be, for example, a Fiendish Servant and a Dragon Rider Cohort at the same time. If that were the case, then it would have to be possible for a Dragon Rider Cohort Wyvern to qualify for Fiendish Servant because "it's still a Wyvern." But if that worked, then a Paragon Wyvern could also qualify, because it is equally "still a Wyvern." This is implicit in the logic you're using, and I find it highly unlikely that you don't get understand what I'm talking about.




Also, what you will say about such things as Cohort Special Mount (via Leadership), Devoted Tracker (feat, CAdv), and Companion Familiar (CF of Arcane Hierofant)?

I don't suppose you've heard the term "exception that proves the rule"? The whole reason Devoted Tracker and Companion Familiar explicitly let you designate the same creature for both abilities is because normally you can't. If normally you could, then they would both be useless, as they wouldn't grant you anything you couldn't already do. Again, this is basic enough that I sincerely doubt you haven't already realized it.



Oh, and Windrider - "may designate any one mount she has previously ridden as her chosen mount"

Windrider looks like it's specifically designed to stack, yes. Thus you can include it in your build, but not the other stuff.

[ShurikVch]

But if that worked, then a Paragon Wyvern could also qualify, because it is equally "still a Wyvern." By my calculation, ritual of turning regular Wyvern into Paragon Wyvern should cost about 324K gp.
Intended WBL for 17th level is 340K

[Urpriest]

By my calculation, ritual of turning regular Wyvern into Paragon Wyvern should cost about 324K gp.
Intended WBL for 17th level is 340K

Nobody mentioned a ritual. You would just grab a Wyvern that already has the Paragon template, same way you're grabbing a Wyvern that's already a Fiendish Servant.

[ShurikVch]

Nobody mentioned a ritual. You would just grab a Wyvern that already has the Paragon template, same way you're grabbing a Wyvern that's already a Fiendish Servant.
Random wandering Paragons usually don't appear in non-epic games.
Also, Paragon add +11 to ECL

[Urpriest]

Random wandering Paragons usually don't appear in non-epic games.
Also, Paragon add +11 to ECL

It doesn't need to wander around, the Fiendish Servant comes to you when you get the class feature. And the ECL was why I specified Fiendish Servant, rather than Dragon Rider Cohort.

[ShurikVch]

It doesn't need to wander around, the Fiendish Servant comes to you when you get the class feature. And the ECL was why I specified Fiendish Servant, rather than Dragon Rider Cohort.
Fiendish Servant:
Upon or after reaching 5th level, a blackguard can call a fiendish bat, cat, dire rat, horse, pony, raven, or toad to serve him. (See the Monster Manual for these creatures’ basic statistics.) Looks pretty straightforward to me.
Since it say to look in MM, creatures should be exactly like in their MM articles (except with fiendish template and other level-related modifications).
The funny thing happens if you take Improved fiendish Servant (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/improved-fiendish-servant--1492/), and your Servant become... Double-Fiendish? :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

Fiendish Servant: Looks pretty straightforward to me.
Since it say to look in MM, creatures should be exactly like in their MM articles (except with fiendish template and other level-related modifications).
The funny thing happens if you take Improved fiendish Servant (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/improved-fiendish-servant--1492/), and your Servant become... Double-Fiendish? :smallamused:

...you're the one arguing that a Fiendish Servant can have traits other than those specified in the MM, not me.

[Coidzor]

And you can get your special mount as your cohort too. But I don't think I've seen a way to get your familiar as your cohort.

There's a substitution level for champions of valor's web enhancement that lets one have one's special mount gain familiar qualities and count as one's familiar. So that'd let you do it, I suppose, though it's generally not worth one's time to have a Special Mount and cohort in the same critter.

High One Warrior Wizard, was it? :smallconfused:

[Stella]

You can't without your DM making stuff up as he goes along. You CAN get your animal companion as your familiar, but that is a specific PRC.
And that is severely limited by the source books/material allowed, as the PHB expressly prohibits this:


An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.