Alignment confirmation

[Vhaidara]

Okay, I have my opinion on this, and am mostly expecting agreement because I think I grasp this.

A fellow player has a CN Psion. I have noticed that he is actually evil. Like, EVIL. I mentioned this to him, and the response I got was: "He's too insane to be evil."

That is a load of crap, correct? Insanity does not make you not evil.

To elaborate, when asked if he would hesitate to kill someone who was between him and what he wanted, the answer was without hesitation.

[Mystral]

You can be insane and any alignment (including, yes, good). Sanity has nothing to do with the alignment.

[SciChronic]

i understand him being chaotic due to his insanity, but other than that, he could be good or evil. Has he never heard of a mad scientist?

[Kish]

If he's "too insane to be evil," then he's "too insane to actually have an alignment," which incidentally goes with "too insane to be playable." Chaotic Neutral is not "less sane" than any other alignment, detritus from 2ed aside.

[BowStreetRunner]

You can go straight to page 104 of the PH on this. Hurting others falls under the good <> evil axis, and has nothing to do with the law <> chaos axis. Chaos may imply an attitude of freedom from authority, but that does not mean free from the evil implications of one's actions. If he chooses to act evil, then he is evil, not just chaotic.

[Trasilor]

Okay, I have my opinion on this, and am mostly expecting agreement because I think I grasp this.

A fellow player has a CN Psion. I have noticed that he is actually evil. Like, EVIL. I mentioned this to him, and the response I got was: "He's too insane to be evil."

That is a load of crap, correct? Insanity does not make you not evil.

To elaborate, when asked if he would hesitate to kill someone who was between him and what he wanted, the answer was without hesitation.

I really doesn't matter what the player says, it is their cumulative action that counts.

I generally tell this to all my players - it doesn't matter what their character sheet says their alignment is, I determine their alignment by their actions and motivations.

If a character says they are Lawful - I ask them to reflect on this. Do they follow the law of the land, organization, internal? If it is internal, they should write down extremes (I will never do X, I will always do Y, etc). If it is an organization, I work with them to give them their rules. If it is the law of the land, I just make certain they know what the law is.

For Chaotic characters, I ask them to reflect on this: Are you anti-establishment, or a free spirit catering to the whims around you. Anti-establishment needs to know the establishment, while the free spirit just goes with the flow.

Neither has anything to do with Good / Evil

Good and Evil are about motivation. Why did you kill that peasant? "In my way" or "He was weaker than me, so I didn't care" or "He was not important so it's not a big deal". are all Evil acts. Each does not put any value on life, instead the player thinks that this lowly peasant is not worth their time/energy. Conversely, if their response was "He was threatening a child/other peasant/town/etc" then the killing might have justified or necessary.

In the end, inform the player that alignment is ultimately up to you, the DM. His character can delude himself into thinking they are a good person, but the rest of the world will perceive him differently.

[Vhaidara]

In the end, inform the player that alignment is ultimately up to you, the DM. His character can delude himself into thinking they are a good person, but the rest of the world will perceive him differently.

First, a small piece of disclosure, this is actually a 4e game. But since RP advice is pretty system universal, I felt better posting the question here.

Second, I'm not the DM. I'm the guy who got recruited to his first ever 4e game because they needed a tank. I was told they were a mostly good group, so I picked a Paladin. The group is
Insane Psion
Warforged aspect of gluttony Fighter
IDC-Neutral Wizard
Sociopathic Gnome Bard
Wolf-Shifter Invoker (joined at the same time as me, is actually good)

Originally, Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star was the last character. But in the session after I joined, that player switched to Archer (from the show Archer). Never seen either show, but he switched from a LG character to a CE one. Announcing my probable intent to arrest/possibly kill him for blatantly evil acts was what led to me discovering that the party was actually all Evil with Neutral written on their sheets.

[Trasilor]

First, a small piece of disclosure, this is actually a 4e game. But since RP advice is pretty system universal, I felt better posting the question here.

Second, I'm not the DM. I'm the guy who got recruited to his first ever 4e game because they needed a tank. I was told they were a mostly good group, so I picked a Paladin. The group is
Insane Psion
Warforged aspect of gluttony Fighter
IDC-Neutral Wizard
Sociopathic Gnome Bard
Wolf-Shifter Invoker (joined at the same time as me, is actually good)

Originally, Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star was the last character. But in the session after I joined, that player switched to Archer (from the show Archer). Never seen either show, but he switched from a LG character to a CE one. Announcing my probable intent to arrest/possibly kill him for blatantly evil acts was what led to me discovering that the party was actually all Evil with Neutral written on their sheets.

Well, in that case, you should be calling out your DM for failing to inform you of the game the other players were playing. :smallannoyed: Knowing they are playing an evil campaign, would you have made the Paladin? :smallconfused:

Not sure if 4E paladin has detect evil at will, but if he does, this is a secret check that you make (i.e. hand the DM a note or PM if play-by-post). If he doesn't, then their actions will dictate his response, assuming you till want to play the paladin (subverting their plans so Evil doesn't prevail, recruiting allies to help fight this menace, trying to curtail their evil ways by allowing them to slaughter and kill other evil creatures, etc). :smallamused:

To me, the paladin should become an NPC that is hunting the party rather than join the party.

[illyahr]

I would have your character go NPC as he attempts to bring in law-enforcement and roll up a new character. You will do nothing but police up your party with this setup and, unless you like herding kittens, it will ruin the fun for you.

edit: ninja'd

[Zombulian]

I think it was the book Champions of Ruin that had a chapter specifically calling out different kinds of evil people. One of them was someone who was too insane to recognize that they were evil, but with a detect spell they would ping evil very easily.

[Tovec]

I'm sure the Joker would also say, " too insane to be evil." Smart money still puts that psycho at CE regardless of what [i]he thinks he is.

CN is not an excuse to do whatever you want without consequence. It is not an excuse to be crazy. It is not an excuse to be evil as the day is long. It isn't even insanity - insanity is different. CN is just chaotic, but neutral in respect to the good-evil axis. What you are describing is evil, in the good-evil axis thus he is not being CN he is being (at best) CE. But really I don't know his character, if he is being truly evil, he might even be LE for all I know. You haven't really described him along the C-L axis yet. But evil is E, not CN.

[TheCrowing1432]

Mindless Murder is a very chaotic evil act.


But one action shouldnt determine your entire alignment. If he consistently acts chaotic evil then yes have the DM change it, if its only once, then no.

Alignment is the sum of all your actions and choices.

[Vhaidara]

Well, in that case, you should be calling out your DM for failing to inform you of the game the other players were playing. :smallannoyed: Knowing they are playing an evil campaign, would you have made the Paladin? :smallconfused:

The DM is a fairly new DM. Further, I think he realized the kind of people he'd let into the party at about the same time I did.

[Inevitability]

Well, in that case, you should be calling out your DM for failing to inform you of the game the other players were playing. :smallannoyed: Knowing they are playing an evil campaign, would you have made the Paladin? :smallconfused:

Not sure if 4E paladin has detect evil at will, but if he does, this is a secret check that you make (i.e. hand the DM a note or PM if play-by-post). If he doesn't, then their actions will dictate his response, assuming you till want to play the paladin (subverting their plans so Evil doesn't prevail, recruiting allies to help fight this menace, trying to curtail their evil ways by allowing them to slaughter and kill other evil creatures, etc). :smallamused:

To me, the paladin should become an NPC that is hunting the party rather than join the party.

4e paladins aren't alignment-bound. They are just martial champions of their deity. CE paladins are just as possible as LG ones.

And no, they don't have Detect Evil.