Ideas for a battle mage (elven or dwarf)

[JamminJay]

So I have a group that I am playing in, this group is running the horde of the dragon queen adventure set while we wait for the other books to come out. For this starter campaign I decided to play something different and I looked at and really liked the idea of an full wizard specializing in abjuration that fights in melee. I saw the mountain dwarf and thought that might be a cool concept to do with the additional weapon proficiency and armor proficiency I felt it would make a great wizard who is more of a battle mage fighter hybrid being more magey though then true fighter wizard.

we are using the standard array for stats so I have 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8. while I was building and looking at my dwarf idea I thought wouldn't it also be cool to run a elven wizard of the same style, a noble traveling for glory and adventure. I have been kind of torn between these two concepts and when I did some crunching I figure with the stat line and progression, survivibility would be about the same between a high dex with mage armor, vs a armor wearing lower dex dwarf. I also feel that I am trading off to be a bit more magic oriented this way rather then melee oriented.

I was wondering if anyone has any experience yet or some number crunching advice for me. so far I have built up the elf but am still a bit torn. stat wise I have a high elf, str 14, dex 15, con 12, int 16, wis 10, cha 8. cantrips I took were firebolt, mending, prestidigitation and blade ward. first level spells chromatic orb, magic missle, mage armor, shield, sleep and charm person.

I figure the character will use a long sword and eventually maybe even dual wield long sword short sword for the extra attack as needed. just curious on thoughts and ideas to help make this character better. also if I am really cheating myself by not playing the dwarf instead, I didn't feel the AC from armor was much greater then the ac from spells/dex but I also didnt account for magic items and armor being +1-+5

[ambartanen]

From a purely optimization perspective, you should pick one of strength or dexterity and keep the other one not so high. That means you'd be better off with a 10 str/16 dex elf with a short sword than a 14 str/14 dex elf with a longsword- better chance to hit, better initiative, better armor class, same damage at first level and it gets even better if you ever get around to raising your dexterity.

It also depends on what you want to do exactly. If you actually want to attack people with weapons, the two options are roughly equal with each having it's own advantages but keep in mind any wizard will fall well behind any actually melee capable classes by the low-mid levels. If you just want to wade into melee but are ok with using spells to attack, a dwarf in plate armor and shield has a much higher AC* and probably a significantly better constitution score as well despite being a slightly worse spell caster (at least for a time).

*If you get your hands on plate and a shield, you get 20 armor class without any magic and still have a free hand to cast. Mage armor not only uses up slots and gives a maximum AC 18 but requires 20 dexterity to do even that which isn't achievable for you before 8th level and even then at the cost of not raising your int above 16.

[Beige]

honestly, the dwarf will probably end up being a better melee clubber - if nothing else because the AC comes in much earlier and you don't need to blow a spell slot every day to get that AC

[fishyfishyfishy]

The concept of an elf mage/warrior is one that always appeals to me. I cannot wait to try it out in this edition.

Personally I would try an Eldritch Knight. Many people are calling it a trap option because you don't get full spell casting, but they fail to see the utility these spells can provide a warrior.

If you must use only wizard, ask yourself this: why am I engaging in melee when I could cast a spell instead ? What benefit do I gain from hitting things that I can't get from using a cantrip?

[lvl 1 human]

I actually have been toying with this idea since i first got my phb (last week) my current idea iirc is take first level as fighter for the weapon and armor with the defensive fighting style. then put the rest into wizard levels. as far as optimization goes for this. high dexterity with finesse weapon is much better than high strength

[JamminJay]

Thanks for the input all,

I think that makes sense if I am going to play the Elf to change over to having a higher dex and just stick with one stat. however my question to you is how does a mountain dwarf get plate and shield proficiency from the get go. 20 ac with armor would be better then mage armor, however that is a feat to get heavy armor proficiency and one to get access to the shield. I also don't see how fighting with a shield and axe would give me the abiltity to have a free hand to cast. per the rules I would need a third feat of warcaster, which would then take 3 of my stat increases which I would need to get to 20 Int if I am playing a bit more caster oriented. Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on a 20 int but I wanted to go full abjuration wizard so I could be a bit more leaning to casting, even though I know a full fighter or eldritch knight will beat me out in raw combat power, I will make up for that in having heavier casting capabilities that the knight wouldn't have.

I do love the concept of the eldritch knight and I don't feel that it is a gimped caster but I wanted to try a different approach and do something a bit heavier caster as I tend to favor raw casters, I just thought this abjurer would be a neat twist on a full caster. I understand that cantrips are pretty strong and I wont have a problem using them just though using combat too would be fun especially after second level getting to use the shield to get close and personal with the enemies.

[Beige]

how does a mountain dwarf get plate from the get go? be a fighter, paladin or war cleric - the same as everyone else

or ask your DM very, very nicely

[JamminJay]

how does a mountain dwarf get plate from the get go? be a fighter, paladin or war cleric - the same as everyone else

or ask your DM very, very nicely

I am pretty sure that the mountain dwarf gets light and medium armor proficiency and no shield, but I could be incorrect as I don't have my PHB with me at work. would the first level dip into fighter be that bad, I still get almost all spell levels just be a slight be slower, and I dont know if these characters will even reach anywhere near lvl 20. I am sure that the campaign goes there but we might only do the first book of the campaign, before going back to the campaign we were doing with 3.5 rules

[Person_Man]

My 2cp:

Abjurer is definitely great way to go for a variety of reasons.

Mage Armor spell provides 13 + Dex AC for 8 hours and does not require Concentration. With 14 Dex, that's an AC of 15. If you're an Elf (+2 Dex) then you get AC of 16. So in the best case scenario, being a Mountain Dwarf wearing Half Plate (once you can afford it at levels 2-3ish) gets you an AC of 17. So getting better physical armor isn't that big of deal.

If you do want physical armor while being a Wizard, then I would strongly suggest starting with 1-2 levels of Cleric first, which would grant you Light/Medium Armor and (more importantly) Shield Proficiency (+2 AC), plus more Rituals and cantrips etc, all without nerfing your spells much. You can also get Heavy Armor from a couple of Domains if that's something you want.

Given the above, I would probably go with Elf, Gnome, or Variant Human. If you do get Heavy Armor, then Human with Heavy Armor Master is extremely potent at 1st level (though its less useful at mid-high levels).

Its worth mentioning that Stealth and Initiative are hugely important in 5E, since ambushing and going before them basically ensures success unless they're much more powerful then you. Dex Saves are also the most common Saves taken (though this can also be patched with a Feat). So I personally would dump Str, rely on Mage Armor or Light Armor, and get my Dex, Int, and Con as high as possible.

[JamminJay]

My 2cp:

Abjurer is definitely great way to go for a variety of reasons.

Mage Armor spell provides 13 + Dex AC for 8 hours and does not require Concentration. With 14 Dex, that's an AC of 15. If you're an Elf (+2 Dex) then you get AC of 16. So in the best case scenario, being a Mountain Dwarf wearing Half Plate (once you can afford it at levels 2-3ish) gets you an AC of 17. So getting better physical armor isn't that big of deal.

If you do want physical armor while being a Wizard, then I would strongly suggest starting with 1-2 levels of Cleric first, which would grant you Light/Medium Armor and (more importantly) Shield Proficiency (+2 AC), plus more Rituals and cantrips etc, all without nerfing your spells much. You can also get Heavy Armor from a couple of Domains if that's something you want.

Given the above, I would probably go with Elf, Gnome, or Variant Human. If you do get Heavy Armor, then Human with Heavy Armor Master is extremely potent at 1st level (though its less useful at mid-high levels).

Its worth mentioning that Stealth and Initiative are hugely important in 5E, since ambushing and going before them basically ensures success unless they're much more powerful then you. Dex Saves are also the most common Saves taken (though this can also be patched with a Feat). So I personally would dump Str, rely on Mage Armor or Light Armor, and get my Dex, Int, and Con as high as possible.

how does the cantrips from multiclassing cleric/wizard work, I understand I get spell slots from the classes I can cast from as that class levels up but I am unsure of how cantrips work with this build. the wizard/cleric sounds kind of a neat proposal for this character and wouldn't hurt my casting too much especially with not knowing how high the party is even going to go.

[UHF]

Our Dwarven Wizard is likely to be an invoker. She wears Medium Armor, and carries a big hammer.

The gaming aspect is just funny. Bad guys are more likely to cast spells on a Rogue or Bard than the fighter, and lets face it, your Wizard will literally laugh off Tasha's Hideous Laughter. (You target dumb fighter types with that, right?)

They'll realize their mistake when the first Thunder wave goes off, and a rather cantankerous Dwarf barges through the newly produced gap in the crowd.

[Beige]

how does the cantrips from multiclassing cleric/wizard work, I understand I get spell slots from the classes I can cast from as that class levels up but I am unsure of how cantrips work with this build. the wizard/cleric sounds kind of a neat proposal for this character and wouldn't hurt my casting too much especially with not knowing how high the party is even going to go.

you'd learn cantrips as normal for the level of both classes - as people can get cantrips without needing speicifc classes (races or whathaveyou), I feel its safe to assume that you'd use your full character level to determine their effects. :smallsmile:

[JamminJay]

you'd learn cantrips as normal for the level of both classes - as people can get cantrips without needing speicifc classes (races or whathaveyou), I feel its safe to assume that you'd use your full character level to determine their effects. :smallsmile:

so the only drawbacks I am seeing to this is having one more required stat for spells and getting wizard spells one level late

[Rilak]

so the only drawbacks I am seeing to this is having one more required stat for spells and getting wizard spells one level late

And being required to have 13 Wisdom. And losing out on the Wizard capstone (which is not that great).

[JamminJay]

And being required to have 13 Wisdom. And losing out on the Wizard capstone (which is not that great).

as far as I understood the 13 wis was only a requirement to multiclass into cleric, not to be a cleric to begin with. so I would need to have a 13 int to start taking levels of wizard if I was a cleric but no wisdom requirement to start as a cleric. or did I miss something in the class section.

[Shadow]

as far as I understood the 13 wis was only a requirement to multiclass into cleric, not to be a cleric to begin with. so I would need to have a 13 int to start taking levels of wizard if I was a cleric but no wisdom requirement to start as a cleric. or did I miss something in the class section.

To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score
prerequisites for both your current class and your new
one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table.
p163

[Sidmen]

To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score
prerequisites for both your current class and your new
one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table.
p163

Or to clarify: you are correct. You could begin play as a Cleric with a 10, 11, or 12 in Wisdom. But you'd need a 13 to multiclass into it later.

[JamminJay]

OK so that makes multiclassing less of an option as its just adding more stat requirements with the already low stats for the standard array. hmm not sure if I want to do cleric/wiz then. thanks for pointing that out too.

[JamminJay]

Or to clarify: you are correct. You could begin play as a Cleric with a 10, 11, or 12 in Wisdom. But you'd need a 13 to multiclass into it later.

without my book to verify till I get home in a few more hours, if I can do cleric and have a 10 wis then that will be a great option if not then I dont want to place something that will eventually be a dump stat.

[Shadow]

Or to clarify: you are correct. You could begin play as a Cleric with a 10, 11, or 12 in Wisdom. But you'd need a 13 to multiclass into it later.
Wrong.
You need to fulfill the requirements of your current class before being eligible to multiclass.
Meaning you need a 13 Wis to multiclass OUT of Cleric into something else, and THEN you need the requirements of that class as well.

Once again, emphasis mine:

To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score
prerequisites for both your current class and your new
one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table.
p163

[ambartanen]

how does a mountain dwarf get plate from the get go?

Ah, they don't get plate or shields. My mistake.

Then the elf is probably better as dexterity is the most amazingest stat and everyone wants it even more than con.

[Rilak]

I figure the character will use a long sword and eventually maybe even dual wield long sword short sword for the extra attack as needed.

Just a heads up. You need a hand free to use somatic or material components, so dual wielding short swords is hard (long sword in the main hand requires a feat). Otherwise an arcane focus is recommended. You can cast with a staff in either hand. And you can use a staff in your off-hand with a feat. You would be better off taking polearm master though (allows using a shield, gives stat modifier to the d4 off-hand).

[Shadow]

Just a heads up. You need a hand free to use somatic or material components, so dual wielding short swords is hard (long sword in the main hand requires a feat). Otherwise an arcane focus is recommended. You can cast with a staff in either hand. And you can use a staff in your off-hand with a feat. You would be better off taking polearm master though (allows using a shield, gives stat modifier to the d4 off-hand).

War Caster feat. You can perform the somatic components of spells evn when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
He did say eventually after all.

[Orvir]

Something to keep in mind is that the Arcane Ward (Abjurer 2) is triggered by casting an abjuration spell. If you're using Mage Armor then you've got that covered daily; otherwise you may have to blow a shield spell to get it.

Edit: Actually, you could just cast the Alarm ritual every day after your rest to spawn it, couldn't you?

[Rilak]

War Caster feat. You can perform the somatic components of spells evn when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
He did say eventually after all.

Sure, that allows somatic components. But not material ones...

[Shadow]

Sure, that allows somatic components. But not material ones...

component pouch trumps focus every time IMHO

[JamminJay]

Just a heads up. You need a hand free to use somatic or material components, so dual wielding short swords is hard (long sword in the main hand requires a feat). Otherwise an arcane focus is recommended. You can cast with a staff in either hand. And you can use a staff in your off-hand with a feat. You would be better off taking polearm master though (allows using a shield, gives stat modifier to the d4 off-hand).

you can also get a feat to allow casting with a weapon or shield in hand, that was the eventually part.

warcaster, gives advantage on con checks to keep concentration, allows casting with a weapon or shield and one or two other things. also was planning on dual wielding longsword and shortsword by the time I get the feats to be able to do it and still cast

[JamminJay]

Something to keep in mind is that the Arcane Ward (Abjurer 2) is triggered by casting an abjuration spell. If you're using Mage Armor then you've got that covered daily; otherwise you may have to blow a shield spell to get it.

Edit: Actually, you could just cast the Alarm ritual every day after your rest to spawn it, couldn't you?

thats part of why I was thinking an elf might be pretty good, required to cast mage armor before battle to set off the ward. however I didnt think of the casting alarm as a ritual even though I think that might be a bit cheesy if allowable by RAW I don't think my DM would let that fly. the other thing I noticed while looking through the phb.... not sure how many ajburation spells there are that would be useful to cast durring battle. shield is amazingly useful but it cant be cast using higher spell slots and that is only 2 hp per cast back to the ward... so maybe better to not go abjuration and go for stronger damage with evoker or something

[Theodoxus]

...shield is amazingly useful but it cant be cast using higher spell slots and that is only 2 hp per cast back to the ward... so maybe better to not go abjuration and go for stronger damage with evoker or something

Definitely an option. Or, if you can wait until 5th level wizard, you'll start Counterspelling at getting 6 points back per cast (or Dispelling - same). Plus they do allow higher spell slots...

If you do grab a level of Cleric for the armor (and possible weapon) proficiencies, you'll be less needful of the ablative ward anyway, as you'll be your own walking box of bandaids.