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LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 03:13 PM
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/archive/f/fb/20100326161703%21392Infernape.png
•+2 strength, -2 wisdom
•Humanoid (Infernape, fire)
•medium size
•an infernape has a base move speed of 30 ft., and a climb speed of the same
•low-light vision
•scent
•an infernape has a natural slam attack that deals 1d4 damage. an infernape qualifies for the Second Slam feat.
•an infernape gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a racial bonus feat.
•Flaming Head: an infernape has a large gout of flame atop it's head. this flame provides illumination as a torch, and cannot be extinguished by any means, mundane or magical, other than death.
•Blaze (Ex): if an infernape is brought below a number of hit points equal to 1/2 it's Con modifier, all fire damage dealt by the infernape is treated as Empowered. this effect lasts untill the infernape comes back above the hp limit or drops to 0 hp.
•automatic languages: none, infernapes communicate via a combination of body language, gestures, and monkey noises.
•Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
•Favored Class: Fighter, Barbarian, Warblade
•LA +0 (+1 if it has frenzied blaze)

Thealtruistorc
2014-09-09, 04:27 PM
Interesting, though it seems kind strong. Two bonus feats, a natural atrack, and blaze seem too strong to be LA 0 altogether, at least without racial HD. Eliminate the bonus feats and I think it would be fine.

Also, add in +2 dex, -2 con. Those guys are frail.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 04:28 PM
This seems like an interesting concept. Just a few questions, though:

1. Giving it a slam attack and Improved/Superior Unarmed Strike seems a little redundant, IMO, and also the 1d8 slam damage seems a bit much for an LA+0 race. Maybe remove the free Superior Unarmed Strike, and reduce the slam damage to 1d4+1 fire? Then they deal the same average damage as if their slams dealt 1d6 (average of 1d4 is 2.5, plus 1 is 3.5; average of 1d6 is 3.5), and have a natural method of dealing fire damage (which seems to fit the fluff). Possibly also add the 1 fire damage to all of their unarmed attacks, and have anyone they grapple take an extra 1 fire per round as long as they're in the grapple.

2. The Flaming Head description should maybe mention what happens if their head is submerged. Making it an auto-death would be silly, maybe when they go underwater the fire is no longer visible but their scalp still glows red-hot? And then give them a penalty on saves to resist drowning, to represent their increased vulnerability to water (if they get a way to breathe water, though, they're fine).

3. Blaze: this one's a little fuzzy in its execution, but I like the concept. An infernape wizard's fireballs dealing double damage just because they're low on hp doesn't make too much sense, but boosting fire damage still should be a thing. Maybe when they're below half hp their slam/unarmed attacks deal 2 points of fire rather than 1, and any other fire damage-dealing effects deal 1 extra point of fire damage per die? Less potential for abuse via Orb of Fire/Combust/etc that way, while the fire damage from their slams is still doubled.

4. Frenzied Blaze: The concept is nice here too. However, I feel like the Unearthed Arcana Whirling Frenzy barbarian variant would fit a little more neatly for a rage-filled monkey (Whirling Frenzy gives +4 Str, +2 dodge bonus to AC, +2 to reflex saves, and allows the user to make a full attack at a -2 penalty to gain another attack at their highest attack bonus), so I'd recommend switching it for that. The Frenzied Berserker's frenzy ability deals them nonlethal damage every round, and having that auto-activate when the character is already low on HP seems counter-productive. You also didn't give a uses/day limit; maybe just make it 3/day, and have it not give extra rage/frenzy/whatever uses? That is, an 8th-level Infernape barbarian has 3 uses of normal rage per day, which can be activated whenever the character chooses to, and also 3 frenzies per day, which only activate when they drop below half HP. Also set a limit on 1/encounter, so they can't frenzy, get some healing once it ends, and frenzy again the next time they're hit. Finally, I'd recommend changing the bonus fire damage so it deals 3 fire on a successful slam/unarmed attack, and all other fire effects deal +2 fire damage per die. Maximum damage is actually going to be worse than double damage half of the time.

ETA: Seconding adding in +2 Dex, -2 Con. Monkeys are fast but squishy.

Amechra
2014-09-09, 04:45 PM
Frenzied Blaze is nope. Nope nope nope nope.

I wouldn't let someone playing an Infernape with that option in the party. Frenzy gives you a ton of boosts, sure, but that's not the issue.

The issue is that they are entirely uncontrollable, and will essentially try to kill whatever is nearest.

Also, just as a note: races are meant to be a relatively small boost to your character; if everyone always wants to play your race whenever they play a particular class (unless that class is restricted to that race), you have a problem on your hands. A well-made race picks a theme, sticks with it, and gives you a neat trick to play with.

Going through:

Scent + Slam 1d8 + 30' Climb speed + 2 bonus feats (one delayed) + Fire subtype is already LA +1. And a pretty decent LA +1 at that. If you want to cut it down to LA +0, I'd suggest cutting out the bonus feats and leave them with the Slam attack; as is, having both makes them feel slightly unfocused as a race.

Flaming Head: Heh, cute. It's really weird that a head on fire does not give you a penalty on Hide checks.

Blaze: Needs to be nerfed; it's actually better than default (Pokemon) Blaze (1.5x Power at 1/3 HP), and is way to strong for any race. I think it would be more appropriate (if not a perfectly accurate) translation of Blaze if they instead dealt +1d6 Fire damage with their Slam attack and an additional 1d6 Fire damage whenever they dealt Fire damage, as long as they are below 1/2 HP.

Frenzied Blaze: I... already mentioned I'm not fond of this feature. This is definitely the kind of thing you would reserve for a Racial feat.

To give you an example of what I'm talking about:

Infernape

+2 Strength, -2 Wisdom. Infernapes are brutally strong, but have little time for common sense.
Type: Infernapes are Humanoids with the [Infernape] and [Fire] subtypes
Medium Size: Infernapes are medium creatures, and have no bonuses or penalties based on size.
Movement: Infernapes have a 30' base land speed, as well as a 30' Climb speed.
Low-Light Vision: Infernapes can see twice as far as Humans in low-light conditions.
Slam: Infernapes have a Slam attack, dealing 1d6 damage for a medium Infernape.
Scent: Infernapes have the Scent ability.
Flaming Head (Ex): An Infernape's head is permanently aflame, shedding light like a candle. This flame cannot be extinguished by any means other than killing the Infernape.
Blaze (Su): If an Infernape's HP drop below 1/2 of their maximum, they begin Blazing; as long as they are Blazing, their Slam attack deals +1d6 Fire damage, and any other Fire damage they deal is increased by 1d6. Once their HP rises past 1/2 their maximum, they stop Blazing.
Level Adjustment: +1/+2 (Not sure which, honestly.)


Frenzied Blaze [Racial]
Prerequisites: Infernape, Rage
Benefits: You consider Blazing to be Rage for the purpose of prerequisites, restricting your behavior, and triggering other effects; in addition, you gain a +2 bonus to Strength and Dexterity while Blazing.

Tanuki Tales
2014-09-09, 05:08 PM
Definitely not worth +2, Amechra.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 05:12 PM
Definitely not worth +2, Amechra.

I'd say that if the slam damage in Amechra's suggestion was taken down to 1d4 (and the fire damage during Blaze reduced to 1d4 as well), it'd be a fair +1 LA race.

Tanuki Tales
2014-09-09, 05:15 PM
I'd say that if the slam damage in Amechra's suggestion was taken down to 1d4 (and the fire damage during Blaze reduced to 1d4 as well), it'd be a fair +1 LA race.

This race isn't worth more than a level of Warblade or another initiating class, let alone a tier 1 caster/manifestor, what have you. Scent and a climb speed aren't that great.

Amechra
2014-09-09, 06:11 PM
Yeah, you're right. It's a fair LA +1 the way I did it (or at least, I'd find it reasonable; then again, I play with buy-off, so...)

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 06:13 PM
1. Giving it a slam attack and Improved/Superior Unarmed Strike seems a little redundant, IMO, and also the 1d8 slam damage seems a bit much for an LA+0 race. Maybe remove the free Superior Unarmed Strike, and reduce the slam damage to 1d4+1 fire? Then they deal the same average damage as if their slams dealt 1d6 (average of 1d4 is 2.5, plus 1 is 3.5; average of 1d6 is 3.5), and have a natural method of dealing fire damage (which seems to fit the fluff). Possibly also add the 1 fire damage to all of their unarmed attacks, and have anyone they grapple take an extra 1 fire per round as long as they're in the grapple.

the slam damage is the same as that for a warforged (an LA +0 race) and Second Slam is generally a warforged feat.

as for the improved/superior unarmed strike, it's a fighting type pokemon.


2. The Flaming Head description should maybe mention what happens if their head is submerged. Making it an auto-death would be silly, maybe when they go underwater the fire is no longer visible but their scalp still glows red-hot? And then give them a penalty on saves to resist drowning, to represent their increased vulnerability to water (if they get a way to breathe water, though, they're fine).

did you miss the part where it said it ''cannot be extinguished by any means, magical or mundane, except death''?
the flame doesn't go out till he dies. end of story.


3. Blaze: this one's a little fuzzy in its execution, but I like the concept. An infernape wizard's fireballs dealing double damage just because they're low on hp doesn't make too much sense, but boosting fire damage still should be a thing. Maybe when they're below half hp their slam/unarmed attacks deal 2 points of fire rather than 1, and any other fire damage-dealing effects deal 1 extra point of fire damage per die? Less potential for abuse via Orb of Fire/Combust/etc that way, while the fire damage from their slams is still doubled.

1. only fire type moves deal fire damage, and smacking someone in the face with you arm is more fighting than fire.
2. basically a direct port of the Blaze ability from pokemon, except i made it 1/2 hp instead of 1/3, because uneven numbers are a pain.


4. Frenzied Blaze: The concept is nice here too. However, I feel like the Unearthed Arcana Whirling Frenzy barbarian variant would fit a little more neatly for a rage-filled monkey (Whirling Frenzy gives +4 Str, +2 dodge bonus to AC, +2 to reflex saves, and allows the user to make a full attack at a -2 penalty to gain another attack at their highest attack bonus), so I'd recommend switching it for that. The Frenzied Berserker's frenzy ability deals them nonlethal damage every round, and having that auto-activate when the character is already low on HP seems counter-productive. You also didn't give a uses/day limit; maybe just make it 3/day, and have it not give extra rage/frenzy/whatever uses? That is, an 8th-level Infernape barbarian has 3 uses of normal rage per day, which can be activated whenever the character chooses to, and also 3 frenzies per day, which only activate when they drop below half HP. Also set a limit on 1/encounter, so they can't frenzy, get some healing once it ends, and frenzy again the next time they're hit. Finally, I'd recommend changing the bonus fire damage so it deals 3 fire on a successful slam/unarmed attack, and all other fire effects deal +2 fire damage per die. Maximum damage is actually going to be worse than double damage half of the time.

firstly, this was based off of Ash's infenape from the anime. it would go crazy when blaze activated and be unable to tell friend from foe. and over here we have the Frenzied Berserker, a class that goes crazy and becomes unable to tell friend from foe. there is intentionally no limit per day because it's a side effect of Blaze.

as for the ''double damage better than maximized'' thing, all effects from standard Blaze are still in effect. and stack.


ETA: Seconding adding in +2 Dex, -2 Con. Monkeys are fast but squishy.

i don't like Con penaltys, and infernape can take a hyper beam to the face and still come back for more.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 06:24 PM
Frenzied Blaze is nope. Nope nope nope nope.

I wouldn't let someone playing an Infernape with that option in the party. Frenzy gives you a ton of boosts, sure, but that's not the issue.

The issue is that they are entirely uncontrollable, and will essentially try to kill whatever is nearest.

only after the enemies have been smashed. see my other reply.

and if you wouldn't let frenzied rage be used, then you wouldn't allow frenzied berserker either. if you would allow frenzied berserker, i don't see you problem.


Also, just as a note: races are meant to be a relatively small boost to your character; if everyone always wants to play your race whenever they play a particular class (unless that class is restricted to that race), you have a problem on your hands. A well-made race picks a theme, sticks with it, and gives you a neat trick to play with.

Going through:

Scent + Slam 1d8 + 30' Climb speed + 2 bonus feats (one delayed) + Fire subtype is already LA +1. And a pretty decent LA +1 at that. If you want to cut it down to LA +0, I'd suggest cutting out the bonus feats and leave them with the Slam attack; as is, having both makes them feel slightly unfocused as a race.

fighting type. no real analogue in d&d. wasn't sure how to portray it.


Flaming Head: Heh, cute. It's really weird that a head on fire does not give you a penalty on Hide checks.

he has a torch attached to his head that he can never put out. if i actually have to say he takes a penalty to hide checks, i'm going to cry at the stupidity of the world.

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 06:37 PM
the slam damage is the same as that for a warforged (an LA +0 race) and Second Slam is generally a warforged feat.

This is false. A warforged's slam attack deals 1d4 damage.


as for the improved/superior unarmed strike, it's a fighting type pokemon.

That still doesn't mean they should get both feats right off the bat. Giving them the slam attack and Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st level is fine; they can pick up Superior Unarmed Strike later if they want, but if they don't want it they don't have to pay for the extra feat in LA.


did you miss the part where it said it ''cannot be extinguished by any means, magical or mundane, except death''?
the flame doesn't go out till he dies. end of story.

Fair enough. It's almost wholly fluff, so it's your call.


1. only fire type moves deal fire damage, and smacking someone in the face with you arm is more fighting than fire.
2. basically a direct port of the Blaze ability from pokemon, except i made it 1/2 hp instead of 1/3, because uneven numbers are a pain.

And yet, doubling fire damage with no cost other than having taken damage is still opening the door for MASSIVE abuse by arcane spellcasters. Even for a high-level wizard, only two hits from an enemy might be enough to activate their blaze, and then as long as they don't get any healing that puts them above half (which can easily be managed), all their fire damage spells are doubled for the rest of the day. Too much for a +1 LA race.


firstly, this was based off of Ash's infenape from the anime. it would go crazy when blaze activated and be unable to tell friend from foe. and over here we have the Frenzied Berserker, a class that goes crazy and becomes unable to tell friend from foe. there is intentionally no limit per day because it's a side effect of Blaze.

as for the ''double damage better than maximized'' thing, all effects from standard Blaze are still in effect. and stack.

You didn't specify that they stacked in the original description, sorry. Double and maximize would be much more than should be given to a +2 LA race; but then, if they're in a frenzy they can't cast spells (or concentrate on anything, ruling out most SLAs and Su abilities), so they can't benefit from the doubling or the maximizing. And the 2 nonlethal damage/round is still very counterproductive for an effect that activates when the character is already low on hp. Between these two things, the Frenzied Blaze version is almost worse than the vanilla version.


i don't like Con penaltys, and infernape can take a hyper beam to the face and still come back for more.

An infernape of a high enough level, that is. Nonetheless, the ability score adjustments are your call.

ETA:
and if you wouldn't let frenzied rage be used, then you wouldn't allow frenzied berserker either. if you would allow frenzied berserker, i don't see you problem.

Your point here is flawed. Frenzied Berserker can only be entered after sixth level; giving them frenzy then, as a class feature with a set number of uses per day, is fair and balanced. Giving a race the same ability regardless of their level, useable any number of times per day as long as the conditions are met, is way, way more than should be provided by a race without any racial HD.

Amechra
2014-09-09, 06:42 PM
You're going to have Frenzy going until you get healed; most healing spells have a Touch range. So you probably kill your Cleric (or whoever is carrying the healbot stick for the fight) once all the monsters are gone.

That's a fallacious argument, by the way; that's like saying that just because I don't think babies should drive cars, that I don't think that anyone should drive cars. Certain abilities are balanced at certain levels, and entirely unbalanced at others.

Frenzied Berserker requires 8 levels of Barbarian. It gives you a pretty big bonus to Strength, and an extra attack. It's fully appropriate... for that level. Getting that at level 1 without any investment other than picking your race is a bit much.

To put this in context: using the version of the race in the OP, and going for the LA +1 option, an Infernape Barbarian with the right feat (I'm thinking Reckless Rage) could potentially stack their rages to get a +14 bonus to Strength.

That's relatively balanced for an 8th level character; not balanced for a 1st/2nd level one.

I know you want to stay faithful to the Pokemon, but...

If you do, Infernape is not a PC; it would be a monster with quite a lot of HD (it is a second-tier evolution, after all.) If you don't want to reduce its capabilities to balance it out for 1st level play, then you should be statting out Charchimp (or Monferno) as a race, with the ability to later evolve into a Infernape. Besides, Ash's Infernape obviously took levels in Barbarian and went Frenzied Berserker...

Gracht Grabmaw
2014-09-09, 06:44 PM
How is that thing in any way humanoid apart from being a bipedal ape?

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 06:49 PM
How is that thing in any way humanoid apart from being a bipedal ape?

animals can only have an Int of 2, which is unsuitable for a player race.
and the humanoid type makes charm person, hold person, etc. work on them.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 06:52 PM
You're going to have Frenzy going until you get healed; most healing spells have a Touch range. So you probably kill your Cleric (or whoever is carrying the healbot stick for the fight) once all the monsters are gone.

wouldn't that be the same with a regular frenzied berserker?


Frenzied Berserker requires 8 levels of Barbarian. It gives you a pretty big bonus to Strength, and an extra attack. It's fully appropriate... for that level. Getting that at level 1 without any investment other than picking your race is a bit much.

To put this in context: using the version of the race in the OP, and going for the LA +1 option, an Infernape Barbarian with the right feat (I'm thinking Reckless Rage) could potentially stack their rages to get a +14 bonus to Strength.

That's relatively balanced for an 8th level character; not balanced for a 1st/2nd level one.

I know you want to stay faithful to the Pokemon, but...

If you do, Infernape is not a PC; it would be a monster with quite a lot of HD (it is a second-tier evolution, after all.) If you don't want to reduce its capabilities to balance it out for 1st level play, then you should be statting out Charchimp (or Monferno) as a race, with the ability to later evolve into a Infernape. Besides, Ash's Infernape obviously took levels in Barbarian and went Frenzied Berserker...

fair enough, i'll remove it.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 06:56 PM
made some changes, what do y'all think?

Extra Anchovies
2014-09-09, 07:18 PM
animals can only have an Int of 2, which is unsuitable for a player race.
and the humanoid type makes charm person, hold person, etc. work on them.

Exactly. Always good to make zero-HD, low-LA races humanoids; after all, the fact that the Elan is an aberration is the sole basis for the King of Smack's effectiveness.

LostDeviljho
2014-09-09, 07:55 PM
Made a Metagross (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371089-Metagross-(3-5-race)).
and a Sceptile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371096-Sceptile-(3-5-race)).

LostDeviljho
2014-09-11, 07:33 PM
just thought of something. the problems were frenzied blaze being Br0keN, and potential Blaze+Fireball/Combust/Flaming Sphere etc. abuses. i removed frenzied blaze, and changed Blaze to Epowering fire damage rather than doubling it. BUT. i didn't specify that it doesn't boost the spell slot requirement by 2 as per the feat. tada, abuse problem solved.