Which feats are underpowered? Which are basically taxes?

[Roxxy]

As the title says, which feats are underpowered? Which feats do you pretty much have to take to pull off specific concepts? I want to hear everyone's opinions on what feats are trap options or underwhelming, and where the feat taxes are.

[TheIronGolem]

Combat Expertise is probably the most egregious feat tax I can think of. Its benefit is how fighting defensively should work out of the box, it's a prerequisite for every decent feat and its dog, and the INT 13 requirement is just bizarre (what, "attack less, defend more" is beyond the intellectual grasp of the average person)?

Dodge is a feat tax, though I think it would actually be worthwhile on its own if its benefit scaled with level or maybe BAB. The same goes for Mobility, which should have been folded into Spring Attack (which is itself a bit taxy).

Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus are guilty here too.

Oh, and special mention to the new kid: Slashing Grace, aka the "Not Errol Flynn Tax".

[Da'Shain]

Combat Expertise is one of the most egregious, IMO. Barely ever see anyone actually use it; instead it's a stepping stone to the non-Power Attack based combat maneuvers.

Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, for being feat taxes on combat styles that should just be available with certain weapons/maneuvers.

Dodge is ... alright, but Mobility is a requirement for a bunch of PrCs and decent feats, and just needs to die in a fire for being almost useless (and entirely useless once you get Spring Attack).

EDIT: Hah, swordsage'd with the same language, even.

[bjoern]

Personally , I feel that improved toughness is the worst feat. It just bothers me when I see people take it. I mean the only hit point that matters is your last one, and the extra one hit that the feat might give you would be better traded for a feat that could help you avoid losing in the first place.

[Segev]

Weapon Focus, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes are often at the top of these lists. They provide little benefit and they don't scale. They tend to be, if anything, taxes.

That said, I'm interested in designing other feats which have improved effects based on having those feats. Weapon Focus in particular can be used to focus other feats on particular weapons, or to give bonus effects when using weapons for which you have Weapon Focus without requiring you to choose a specific weapon for a given feat (and possibly while giving a generic benefit for the feat that isn't weapon-specific). And adding more Weapon Foci would add more weapons which gain those benefits.

For instance...

Magic Weapon Focus
You are adept at exploiting well-balanced weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When making an attack roll with a weapon that has at least a +! enhancement bonus to hit, you may re-roll the d20 if the result on the die is less than or equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. You may use this feat only once per attack roll.
Special: Treat any weapon for which you have Weapon Focus as if its enhancement bonus to hit were one higher than normal, and any weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus as if its enhancement bonus to hit were one higher still (for a total of two higher). This can bring it to an effective enhancement bonus to hit of +6 or more.

[Kurald Galain]

It strikes me that Ninja, Magus, and Gunslingers all have a "special ability pool" (ki / arcane / grit) that powers most of their abilities, that is very very small, and that refills only per day. This makes Extra Ki / Arcane Pool / Grit pretty much a feat tax if you want to play these characters as intended.

Of course, the Magus is fine with its class features of spellcasting, spell combat, and spellstrike; nevertheless it can barely use any of its arcana for lack of those points. The gunslinger can still deal lots of damage but needs grit to do anything more interesting than that. The ninja just sucks. This does not apply if you can use wyroot shenanigans or a similar loophole.

[Spore]

I feel Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers should be just built into combat rules rather than being their own talents. Two Weapon fighting should be ONE talent rather than 4. Or the talents should enable you from BAB +6 onwards to at least do two attacks if you have moved.

Also item creation is not only expensive in feats but also weird. I understand that a dwarven runesmith shouldn't be able to create scrolls or staves. But it's weird how the purpose of basically a "Harry Potter wand" differs for three different feats. Or why you can't create rings with the Wondrous Item feat. Or why you need a spell list to actually create ANYTHING remotely magical instead of just being forced to ask a friendly wizard to cast his spell upon it.

Natural Spell. It's getting rid of the only drawback a druid should have for shaping. But I am of the opinion a Wizard shouldn't be able to cast without his arcane bond ITEM (forced upon him) and a cleric shouldn't be able if he can't touch and hold up a divine insignia to which he has focussed his daily prayers on.


It strikes me that Ninja, Magus, and Gunslingers all have a "special ability pool" (ki / arcane / grit) that powers most of their abilities, that is very very small, and that refills only per day. This makes Extra Ki / Arcane Pool / Grit pretty much a feat tax if you want to play these characters as intended.

I disagree slightly. An absolute pool of "special points" is the very concept of limited resources D&D and PF build upon. But there should be more things that last until a target is dead or combat is over. It's ridiculous that an CL 1 Darkvision costs a whole Ki point when you could get caster leve = class level improved invisibility for the same point. It's not the feat that is not properly balanced it's the class feature that is.

[Waker]

The biggest offenders have been mentioned so far, but there are a few more that are noteworthy.
Improved Unarmed Strike-Unless you play with a DM who consistently strips the party of their gear, avoid this feat. It wouldn't be quite as bad if it scaled a little bit, like it does with Superior Unarmed Strike (Bo9S).
Two-Weapon Fighting- One of the most underwhelming choices you can make in the game. Between needing multiple feats to gain additional attacks, high Dex requirements, the cost of upgrading more than one weapon and being reliant on the enemy standing in place, you are all but guaranteed to do less damage than the other guy. Feat could be more tolerable if it was reduced to one feat period with extra attacks being awarded based on BAB.
Run, Endurance, Toughness, Track- Let's be honest. No one who's played D&D before takes these feats except on accident or if they are awarded as part of a class/PrC. Sadly they are sometimes required for better feats or PrCs, despite the practically non-existent bonuses they grant.

If you want to read a bit about some other options for dealing with feat taxes, this might give you some ideas. Stuff (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/)

[ManicOppressive]

Dodge and Mobility aren't terrible, but they would never be picked up if it weren't for all of the things that require them. (Swiftblades, Spring Attack, etc) Honestly, in my campaigns, I usually combine them into a single feat.

[Pex]

Personally , I feel that improved toughness is the worst feat. It just bothers me when I see people take it. I mean the only hit point that matters is your last one, and the extra one hit that the feat might give you would be better traded for a feat that could help you avoid losing in the first place.

I disagree. There are many different ways to take damage you couldn't possibly have every feat imaginable that would have you avoid the damage. Every hit point matters. The feat isn't necessarily for everyone, but a feat is not required to be such to be a good feat.

The feat is useful for Point Buy economy. A player need only spend 5 points for 14 Con. Favored class bonus and Improved Toughness give the character 18 Con worth of hit points. That is relevant. Depending on player mood, need, and Point Buy value (say 15), 2 points for only a 12 Con still allows 16 Con worth of hit points which is an advantage a low Point Buy campaign. A human paladin could spend his 15 points for 16 ST 10 DX 12 CO 8 IN 10 WI 14 CH and use human +2 for CH. Because of the feat he won't be lacking for hit points despite the low for a warrior Constitution.

[Captain Kablam]

Skill feats like Alertness and Stealthy. I see Combat Expertise and Dodge coming up, but at least there are actual pay off in the other feats they grant. Skill feats are just a waste. Now if they did something beyone the funky four skill points they offer and did something like elevate the skills they add into a class skill, or go into ranks and not misc, then yeah, worth it, maybe.

[grarrrg]

It strikes me that Ninja, Magus, and Gunslingers all have a "special ability pool" (ki / arcane / grit) that powers most of their abilities, that is very very small, and that refills only per day. This makes Extra Ki / Arcane Pool / Grit pretty much a feat tax if you want to play these characters as intended.

I agree with you on all but Gunslinger, as they actually have a way to refill their pool during the day.
I'd also say the main issue with the above is that they (almost always) rely on your 2nd or even 3rd best stat, making it even harder to have a decent sized pool.

[bjoern]

I disagree. There are many different ways to take damage you couldn't possibly have every feat imaginable that would have you avoid the damage. Every hit point matters. The feat isn't necessarily for everyone, but a feat is not required to be such to be a good feat.

The feat is useful for Point Buy economy. A player need only spend 5 points for 14 Con. Favored class bonus and Improved Toughness give the character 18 Con worth of hit points. That is relevant. Depending on player mood, need, and Point Buy value (say 15), 2 points for only a 12 Con still allows 16 Con worth of hit points which is an advantage a low Point Buy campaign. A human paladin could spend his 15 points for 16 ST 10 DX 12 CO 8 IN 10 WI 14 CH and use human +2 for CH. Because of the feat he won't be lacking for hit points despite the low for a warrior Constitution.

Like I said, my opinion opinion.

Toughness gives 1hp per level. So let's say level 10. That's 10hp. The only time that you will get any mileage from.the feat is the round right before you die. While not dying is great, having an extra 10hp isn't always going to save you. The only time your investment is redeemed is if you wind up at 10hp or less. I'd rather have a feat that I can take advantage of every round prior to dying, even on a point buy, or whatever.

[deuxhero]

Magic Weapon Focus
You are adept at exploiting well-balanced weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When making an attack roll with a weapon that has at least a +! enhancement bonus to hit, you may re-roll the d20 if the result on the die is less than or equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon. You may use this feat only once per attack roll.
Special: Treat any weapon for which you have Weapon Focus as if its enhancement bonus to hit were one higher than normal, and any weapon for which you have Greater Weapon Focus as if its enhancement bonus to hit were one higher still (for a total of two higher). This can bring it to an effective enhancement bonus to hit of +6 or more.

A natural 1 is the main thing you want to reroll anyways. Then again, the greatest warrior with the best weapon ever ever missing (or dealing ineffective damage) 1 in 20 times against an held guy in plainclothes is dumb.

[Beowulf DW]

Like I said, my opinion opinion.

Toughness gives 1hp per level. So let's say level 10. That's 10hp. The only time that you will get any mileage from.the feat is the round right before you die. While not dying is great, having an extra 10hp isn't always going to save you. The only time your investment is redeemed is if you wind up at 10hp or less. I'd rather have a feat that I can take advantage of every round prior to dying, even on a point buy, or whatever.

Toughness has shown up in quite a few guides that I've read as a pretty good feat when it comes to front-liners. 3 extra HP instantly if you take it at level 1 or 3, and it scales with your level afterwards. That extra HP has saved my characters more times than I can count. It's the equivalent of 2 extra Con for the purposes of HP, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

[deuxhero]

PF Toughness is an OK feat. If suffers from other feats being better and making you not dead (like Improved Initiative's ability to make things dead before they can hurt you) but it certainly has a reason exist


3.5 toughness though...

[Kudaku]

A few posters here seem unaware that toughness was changed from 3.5 to PF. While it's certainly not a "must-have", it's not a bad option for a character who's worried about his hit point total.

I'd say Combat Expertise is the biggest drag feat around. The feat doesn't make sense, the int prereq doesn't make sense, and it's extremely frequently used as a prereq for other feats that have zip to do with defensive fighting.

Another one I'm not a fan of is Selective Channeling. Apparently Iomedae is a nearsighted goddess and will happily heal both my party members and the anti-paladin they're fighting unless I burn a feat to get her some glasses.

Edit: partially ninjaed on Toughness. I blame the circumstance penalty to initiative posting on my phone gives me.

[Pex]

Like I said, my opinion opinion.

Toughness gives 1hp per level. So let's say level 10. That's 10hp. The only time that you will get any mileage from.the feat is the round right before you die. While not dying is great, having an extra 10hp isn't always going to save you. The only time your investment is redeemed is if you wind up at 10hp or less. I'd rather have a feat that I can take advantage of every round prior to dying, even on a point buy, or whatever.

You can take advantage of Weapon Focus every round before dying. That doesn't make it a good feat for some people. Having that one more round of actions before you drop Improved Toughness gives you can be all the difference to win the combat.