Phandelver...and tanking!

[Angelalex242]

I don't know if my GM let me get away with murder or what, but applying principles learned in Final Fantasy 13 to the first encounter (that apparently TPKs many, many parties...) my team made it through with barely a scratch.

My Paladin (who has splint due to an extra 200 GP being available) mostly drew fire and used the dodge action. In fact, he didn't attack once. All he did was draw enemy fire...which was all at disdadvantage, trying to hit AC 19. Did any of the 6 arrows hit? Yes, one did, but he has heavy armor master too, so he only took 4 damage.

In the second encounter at the mouth of the cave, all he did, again, was STEELGUARD! I mean, draw fire and dodge action. This time, the party got hurt before I could get Steelguard up, but because I was tanking thereafter, they didn't get hit again.

Is the GM being too generous by letting me tank like this, or did I just find a way to break most encounters by copying Snow Villiers in Sentinel mode?

[pwykersotz]

The GM is being a little generous, but honestly, goblins.

Have you gone into the cave yet? It might not work all the way through.

[Yorrin]

If you're having fun with it and it's working, more power to you! That being said, the DM might be somewhat constrained by the adventure in terms of environments, not to mention it sounds like he's playing the monsters a little dumb. If they cant hit you it would make sense for them to use ranged attacks on your allies behind you, or walk around you. The "walk around you" tactic will be a bit harder once you hit level four and grab the sentinel feat, but as a DM I'd be giving the monsters more ranged attacks while still leaving you one or two monsters to harmlessly beat on you so you didn't feel useless.

[SaintRidley]

Letting you have Splint this early might be too generous, as does what appears to be sending all attacks to you and none to anyone else. Did you actually do anything to draw enemy attacks in? It sounds mostly like the DM had everyone do the dumb thing and attack the guy they could only hit on a pretty good roll and ignore everyone else.

[Stan]

I think it makes sense that it can be effective as long as he's in the front and looking impressive. When I DM, I typically have smart monsters figure out who is a threat after a round or two - it's more effective to take out the weak ones doing all the damage. I also have monsters tend to attack whoever damaged them the most.

It'd be boring if one simple strategy to work all the time. But it's annoying if DMs never let reasonable strategies work.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the key is, we don't know what I should roll for provoke/taunt/challenge/whatever we're going to call it.

The key part of FF13's Sentinels I need to be able to copy is the forcing of monsters to attack me, even though it's obviously a terrible decision for them to do so.

[Yorrin]

Well, the key is, we don't know what I should roll for provoke/taunt/challenge/whatever we're going to call it.

The key part of FF13's Sentinels I need to be able to copy is the forcing of monsters to attack me, even though it's obviously a terrible decision for them to do so.

Which is why this tactic is of limited effectiveness in DnD. In FF it's a great thing, but DnD has monsters that are as tactically intelligent as your DM. With the Sentinel feat you'll be able to prevent foes from leaving your reach, which is great for melee foes if you can get next to them, but even then it's one at a time. Smart use of terrain can help, but it's not foolproof and sometimes it's just not possible. Short of all your allies getting greater invisibility I'm not sure you'll find a good way to accomplish this.

[DrLemniscate]

I don't know if my GM let me get away with murder or what, but applying principles learned in Final Fantasy 13 to the first encounter (that apparently TPKs many, many parties...) my team made it through with barely a scratch.

My Paladin (who has splint due to an extra 200 GP being available) mostly drew fire and used the dodge action. In fact, he didn't attack once. All he did was draw enemy fire...which was all at disdadvantage, trying to hit AC 19. Did any of the 6 arrows hit? Yes, one did, but he has heavy armor master too, so he only took 4 damage.

In the second encounter at the mouth of the cave, all he did, again, was STEELGUARD! I mean, draw fire and dodge action. This time, the party got hurt before I could get Steelguard up, but because I was tanking thereafter, they didn't get hit again.

Is the GM being too generous by letting me tank like this, or did I just find a way to break most encounters by copying Snow Villiers in Sentinel mode?

A Level 1 Fighter can have a starting AC of 19 without the Splint. It's fine. They can also have your Heavy Armor Feat by also being human.

16 (Chain) + 2 (Shield) + 1 (Fighting Style)

[Angelalex242]

Well, the party composition is Paladin, Monk, Rogue, Druid, Warlock.

Obviously, the Paladin playing Sentinel is a GREAT idea, as long as it works, as the rest of the party's AC is 16, tops, maybe 15.

So yeah, for so long as the GM lets me get away with it, I should probably keep my Snow Villiers hat on. :)

[eastmabl]

It works okay for the first couple of levels maybe, but once attacks aren't made against AC or Dex saves, your one trick pony is out to pasture.

As a DM, if I'm Klarg and I have the fighter hopping around in front of me, I'm just going to grapple him. Suddenly, he has 0 movement, can't Dodge and I drag him into the cavern where my goblin pals will fill his internal organs with shortsword.

[Yorrin]

Just ran across the Compelled Duel spell whilst looking for something else. Take a look- it's not a perfect solution but it's one step closer to what you want.

[Angelalex242]

That's what Divine Grace is for. Once attacks aren't made against AC, that +5 to all saves will be doing most of the work.

Of course, feats like mage slayer, sentinel, and shield master also help the 'Sentinel' build.

Should probably go with the Ancient's Oath too, if I'm gonna be a Sentinel.

[ambartanen]

I played that first part of the Mines as a warlock and we had a fighter in heavy armor and two handed weapon with 16 AC. Are you using a shield to get to 19? Anyway, the goblins hid in the underbrush, retreated from the fighter and just shot the rest of the party who had range attacks. Fighter didn't even get attacked until right at the entrance where two goblins shot at him from ambush with advantage and dropped him in the surprise round. He couldn't close in on the goblins so he switched to using his crossbow with 10 dex just so he could contribute something to the fights but he still wasn't getting attack cause he couldn't hit the enemies. Heavy weapons would have been very helpful in the cave but by that time he was at low hit points with no ways left for the group to heal him.

Heavy Armor Master is definitely very powerful at low levels. Virtually everything hitting you is guaranteed to be using non-magical weapons and combined with the maximum starting AC, it means your character can probably solo CR 2 creatures without much risk. That said, unless you are somehow blocking the way of enemies which will not happen too often, as a DM I wouldn't have enemies attack you if you are just standing there taking the dodge action. You are no threat to them at the moment while someone else off to the side is actually killing them and even beasts can figure this out.

[Giant2005]

If you are able to tank without actually hitting anything, Clerics are the best for it. Sanctuary is an awesome spell for not being hit if you aren't fighting back.

[Angelalex242]

Sadly, the party does not contain a cleric.

More to the point, what SHOULD a taunt mechanic be?

Persuasion check is the DC for a Charisma save of the enemy? Once taunted, it lasts for charisma bonus rounds?

[Rilak]

The taunt mechanic is using something that makes it tactically disadvantageous to not attack the Paladin. Abilities that grant a disadvantage on attacks against other players, etc.

Barring that, any intelligent enemy will use ranged attacks to poke the guys behind the tank. You need to actually threaten them in order to make them target you. If the Goblins see a Wizard casting powerful magic, they will target him. Especially if they are unable to hit the fighter.

The same goes for enemy mages. They will focus DEX-save spells on a Rogue if they have reason to believe he is good at dodging them. And so on.

[Angelalex242]

So I suppose the answer is 'rely on the GM's goodwill to continue being a sentinel.' Because most of my suggestions for a proper 'force enemies to attack me even though it is terrible strategy to do so' are being shot down.

[Diarmuid]

There is nothing mechanically in the books that have come out to do what you're trying to do. The mechanical options that existed in 3.5 were few and far between, and one of them was pretty bad.

Knight have a challenge ability that works OK. There was a Goad feat that was pretty lackluster.

Tanking is great, but only if you can get them to attack you. As has been said, maybe the stupid goblins might waste a round or 2, but after that they'd probably actually try to kill the guys trying to kill them. A wolf or another animal intelligence critter might stick with attacking the first thing it gets to, but anything with some amount of intelligence is eventually going to stop banging its head against the wall.

[Rilak]

Or just pick feats & spells designed to make you very annoying for enemies to ignore ;)

Feats: Polearm Master, Sentinel (force enemies to stop and hit you).

Barbarian Bear (14) is pretty much a taunt (disadvantage if they can strike you but choose another target).
Fighter Battle Master: Goading Attack (taunt, costs resources, allows a save)
Paladin Compelled Duel (Spell level 1): Allows a save
Paladin Relentless Avenger (7): When you hit with an opportunity attack, move half your speed (use with Sentinel to reposition you between your friends and the enemy)
Paladin Soul of Vengeance (15): When an enemy attacks something, hit it back (use with Relentless Avenger to reposition you between your friends and the enemy)

At lower levels you don't really get anything to force enemies to hit you, or punish them for ignoring you. A strong opportunity attack will hurt them though. If you down a Goblin because he tries to sneak past you, the others might not be so keen. Etc.

[Angelalex242]

That's the thing, though. In the Final Fantast game I stole the idea from, military PSICOM units, presumably very well trained and intelligently organized, will attack Snow over and over again, futiley, simply because that's what Sentinel does.

Why AI is often Artificial Stupidity, I suppose.

[ambartanen]

In other words you tank by either making your enemies believe you are the biggest danger to them or positioning yourself in such a way that they need to take care of you before they can get to whoever that is. To that aim, opportunity attacks are your friend as are picking advantageous terrain and getting in the face of the meanest enemies.

P.S. You are welcome to earn the ire of your enemies in other ways. Perhaps insulting the bravery of the savage orc tribe you are fighting will get them to attack you over everyone else, at least for a round or two.