[3.5] Awaken Loop 2: Druidic Boogaloo

[Flickerdart]

Time for more exploits of poorly worded Core druid spells! Building on the old Awaken trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?118703-Polymorph-Awaken-exploit) for infinite HD, let's add Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) to the mix. Specifically, we're interested in this line:

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged.
This is text that's not present in any other method of raising the dead.

Now, remember the sad drawback of the Awaken exploit, that it left you saddled with useless HD and you had to burn them off? Well, now we can use them - you keep, explicitly, the feats, skill ranks, HP, and BAB. The spell says absolutely nothing about the HD loss from death affecting these things. So after you have as many HD as you want, kill yourself a bunch of times, pay the miserly cost of coming back to life, and enjoy your free bonuses (though you're probably a badger or something now).

This works even better out of Core because you can sprinkle in Uncanny Forethought to essentially cut the casting time of Awaken down to a full round action INT times per day. This means that at level 20, a Mystic Theurge favoring his Wizard side can grant any creature the benefits of 20 levels per day without actually changing how much HD they have and how much XP they need to level up, not to mention +10d3 Charisma.

You can also use Reincarnate as a normal person in combination with a Thought Bottle to poach multiple versions of a particular level, giving you access to, say, every single Cleric domain (Cleric 1) or every single feat in the game (Marshal 1) or multiple ACFs from a single class.

Oh druids. You so crazy.

[Xan_Kriegor]

I'd just like to chime in with the fact that Last Breath exists (SpC 130), it is like Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) but costs a standard action instead of 10 minutes, costs 500gp instead of 1,000gp, and doesn't cause level/CON drain. However if I'm understanding you right you actually want the level drain, so there's that.

I'm not sure if it's RAW or not, but with Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) can you maximize (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) or empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) it? Having an INT score of 19-27 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) would be pretty awesome, especially if cast on trees (all mental stats would be 19-27 then). It just begs someone to make a grove of hyper-intelligent trees that use their sentience to (a) guide travelers or (b) become OP spellcasters themselves.

Something that I think gets glossed over a bit is that Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) states: "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated." So spamming the spell can be done, but it'll take up most of your day. Also, Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) has a chance of failure since you need to make a Will save of "DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened" therefore you can only have N HD if you can make a Will save of (N-2).

[eggynack]

That's... really weird. Active ingredient is more reincarnate than awaken, I think. The cost per use isn't the best thing, but, yeah, seriously weird.

[Flickerdart]

I'd just like to chime in with the fact that Last Breath exists (SpC 130), it is like Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) but costs a standard action instead of 10 minutes, costs 500gp instead of 1,000gp, and doesn't cause level/CON drain. However if I'm understanding you right you actually want the level drain, so there's that.
Yep, you want the level drain, unless you want to get saddled with the extra Magical Beast HD for whatever reason. Since Reincarnate lets you keep the benefits but not the HD itself, there's no reason to dodge them.


I'm not sure if it's RAW or not, but with Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) can you maximize (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) or empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) it? Having an INT score of 19-27 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) would be pretty awesome, especially if cast on trees (all mental stats would be 19-27 then). It just begs someone to make a grove of hyper-intelligent trees that use their sentience to (a) guide travelers or (b) become OP spellcasters themselves.
As numeric variables, they are eligible to be affected by Empower/Maximize. However, trees would need Surrogate Spellcasting to cast without mouths or hands.


Something that I think gets glossed over a bit is that Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) states: "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated." So spamming the spell can be done, but it'll take up most of your day. Also, Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) has a chance of failure since you need to make a Will save of "DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened" therefore you can only have N HD if you can make a Will save of (N-2).
You'll be chopping off the HD as quickly as you're laying them on, so the Will save won't be a problem. If in doubt, pick up some items of the Concentration to Will saves maneuver, and some competence skill boosters.

[Phelix-Mu]

However, trees would need Surrogate Spellcasting to cast without mouths or hands.

I've often wondered about this.

Quoth the SRD on Awaken:

An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.

And on the topic of animated objects:

Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors.

So why not just use wood shape to give the tree arms and hands before awakening it?

In fact, to be even more speculative, why not give the tree four arms?

And, while we are on the topic, can you PaO one object into a tree temporarily and use one of the several rapid awaken tricks to make the tree sentient, and have it remain so when the duration of PaO runs out?

NOTE: On the matter of a mouth, an awakened tree can explicitly speak whether or not it has a mouth, although to parse the text very finely, it can "speak one language," so in theory that might not cover spells with verbal components (that seems a very weak position to me, though).

[Phelix-Mu]

Any thoughts from anyone?

[nedz]

So why not just use wood shape to give the tree arms and hands before awakening it?

In fact, to be even more speculative, why not give the tree four arms?

And, while we are on the topic, can you PaO one object into a tree temporarily and use one of the several rapid awaken tricks to make the tree sentient, and have it remain so when the duration of PaO runs out?


Awaken Tree
PaO into a Shambling Mound (Same kingdom, Same size, Same or lower Intelligence = Permanent )
Profit



NOTE: On the matter of a mouth, an awakened tree can explicitly speak whether or not it has a mouth, although to parse the text very finely, it can "speak one language," so in theory that might not cover spells with verbal components (that seems a very weak position to me, though).

How does Speak with Plants work then ?

[Fax Celestis]

As numeric variables, they are eligible to be affected by Empower/Maximize. However, trees would need Surrogate Spellcasting to cast without mouths or hands.

Do they though?


Spells
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells

[Darrin]

Do they though?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells

There's no clear way to interpret that to mean all creatures that can cast spells (otherwise, there would be no need for Surrogate Spellcasting/Natural Spell). The most conservative way to interpret that is it only applies to creatures that have a "Spells:" Special Attack entry in the MM.

[Rubik]

I'm not sure if it's RAW or not, but with Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) can you maximize (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) or empower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) it? Having an INT score of 19-27 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) would be pretty awesome, especially if cast on trees (all mental stats would be 19-27 then). It just begs someone to make a grove of hyper-intelligent trees that use their sentience to (a) guide travelers or (b) become OP spellcasters themselves.A StP erudite, a psion or ardent who snags a Psychic Chirurgery off of a StP erudite, or an illithid savant psion who eats a StP erudite's brain can take the Awaken spell off of the druid list, and since there's nothing anywhere in metapsionics saying that you can't apply a metapsionic feat more than once -- it's limited only by psionic focus and the power point cap -- you can Empower it multiple times. This comes in especially useful when you stop and consider that anyone with all of the ardent's ACFs can finagle his way into adding Awaken to his Dominant Ideal'd mantle for lots and lots of Empowering. An infinite number of times, in fact, if you add the Metapower (Empower Power + Awaken) combo.

Combine with Metamorphosis to turn yourself into a tree and a Contingent Awaken...

[Chronos]

You'll be chopping off the HD as quickly as you're laying them on, so the Will save won't be a problem.
You could do that, but I don't think it'd be optimal. You might want to use the Thought Bottle shenanigans to poach abilities from more than one level deep in each class, and you might also want to pile up more skill points than just two levels worth at a time. If you just Awaken once (gaining two HD) and then Reincarnate twice (losing those HD) and repeat, you could end up with skills at your level plus 5, but if you Awaken twice (gaining four HD) and then Reincarnate four times, you could end up with skills at level plus 7 (and similar gains for more Awakens in a row).

[Pippin]

I'm sorry for the thread necromancy, but that's an interesting thread and I think it's best to react on it.


This comes in especially useful when you stop and consider that anyone with all of the ardent's ACFs can finagle his way into adding Awaken to his Dominant Ideal'd mantle for lots and lots of Empowering. An infinite number of times, in fact, if you add the Metapower (Empower Power + Awaken) combo.
Even if somewhere in the Universe, a Spell-to-Power Erudite learned Awaken as a power, how does it end up in a mantle? It's still a spell, that an individual managed to learn as a power.

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As for the matter at hand, Change of Fate may help to automatically succeed on Awaken's will save, no level loss/drain required, but it costs some XP.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: regardless of how interesting the thread is, a Necro is a Necro, and not how we do things around here.