advice on designing a tabletop RPG

[ThreadNecro5]

so iv gotten the idea to create my own tabletop RPG, and Im wanting any advice anyone can give me. (I think this is the right category for this sort of thing)

iv got some details for a main setting down, and Im dealing with most of that before I do rules. overall its designed to be a versatile sci-fi setting that, while in a unified universe, allows for you to play any sort of sci-fi plot the GM or players want, if you want cyberpunk, you can do cyperpunk, if you want military science fiction or space opera, those are an option, ect.

the system will likely (essentially this is my ideas in a rough 'mental sketch') function with a variant on the standard d20RPG format. it will use a classless system with progression somewhat inspired by the system in the world of darkness games. Will include mechanics for genetic engineering, mechanical implants, and spaceship ownership, all that sort of stuff. I eventually hope to have an in depth planet and playable alien random generator or GM and player use. will primarily at the beginning be based on the pathfinder rule set as I develop the system. if this seems likely to mess with any copyrights please point it out to me.

as far as playable character options are concerned, whey will include aliens and A.I.s of numerous types, as well as humans

as far as the basic 'skeleton' of the setting that I can start building around is concerned here is what I have so far

Set in year 3041

Humanity has long since set out into the galaxy to found an empire.

The technology level in different places varies; some are barely post-modern, while others are vast city-complexes filled with robots, holograms and other standard sci-fi fare, as well as any other potential technology level.

Within the confines of our own planetary-system besides earth, mars and the moon of titan have been developed into functioning worlds, as well as Pluto housing a port made from a disused deep-space research center.
Beyond that humans have inhabited and terraformed numerous planets, beyond those inhabited by other intelligent life, of which some co-inhabited world with each other and are open to immigration.

Human government primarily consists of an oligarchy made up of the highest ranking members of the various local governments that form a body of system officials who enter office in a manner that varies by local culture, often though an election in areas of ‘civilised’ space. Representatives of the various nonhuman governments who wish to communicate also meet with an appropriate official to discuss their needs with.

Faster than light technology relies on a mineral that, when exposed to an electrical current reacts to produce a superdense substance that, depending on variables within the currant, can generate and manipulate gravity in various ways, either producing a ‘pulling’ or ‘pushing’ force. This is used to either pull a ship forward or to even compress space along short distances to allow for reasonable levels of access between different planetary systems.

For the majority of recent history humanity has been in a slow-boiling war with a large variety of territorial arthropod (actual name needed), whose civilization was accidentally ‘invaded’ by human settlers, due to their people living within subterranean burrows. The difficulty in resolving this way was exasperated by the distance of the ‘roaches’ (as they were soon dubbed) native system, making wide scale deployment a slow progress and diplomacy near impossible.

In the past few centuries advances in faster than light technology allowing for simplified inter-system jumps have improved, rendering the old sleeper-ships outdated. In the (alien name)-human war however this new tech allowed some level of diplomacy to form with the (alien name)’s, and in the decades since ambassadors and researchers have been sent to the planet.

also as it is an important point for such settings, ive written a bit more detail/history on the origin of the universes applied plot device that primarily fuels the faster than light technology, but also other stuff, here what ive written on it:

In year 2050 a colony on Saturn’s moon of titan discovered a new chemical mixture that during research was discovered that some level of force can be produced by the application of an electrical currant, causing a reaction that forms a substance whose half-life generates and manipulates a gravitational force.

Over time it was discovered that the purity of the material, and how strong the electrical currant is, will affect the strength of the force produced, as well as the ‘push’ only produced when also presented with a positive charge, and a negative change has been discovered to generate a ‘sucking’ effect. The Frueh-Bruder effect, as it was eventually named, was later responsible for the partial implosion of the facility used for the research.

Over time this effect has found to be used as a clean fuel source, artificial gravity, ballistics, and a number of other uses.

if any of the sciencey-sounding things make no sense, even by sci-fi standards please point it out.

[Grinner]

So...Do you have any questions?

[Geostationary]

So a few things.

1. READ OTHER SYSTEMS. If you have already, great! If you haven't, do so. This helps you to see how other systems are built and how they function. You appear to have read d20 and have some familiarity with WoD, but is that all? A common mistake made by first-timers is to have read D&D, think that you can just go and write a better version, and then go from there without ever realizing the breadth of systems currently on the market. Relatedly,

2. What does this do that other systems don't? Why is an extant d20 system, or Eclipse Phase, or Traveler, or any of the myriad other sci-fi-centric systems out there not suitable for your purposes? Do you just want to build a system, or do you have something against current systems used in for sci-fi gaming? Back to point one, are you familiar with any of these other systems?

3. What do you hope to accomplish with your system? You have setting notes, but you haven't given us any goals or mechanics behind the system you want to build. What do you want it to do?

4. On a setting note, your ftl/tech stuff just sounds like the phlebotnium behind Mass Effect, Element Zero. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but what you've described is almost literally just how the mass effect works.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

There's three questions you should ask yourself:
Has my idea for a game been done already?
If yes, can I feasably improve on it in execution?
And also in your case since you're basing it on an already existing system: Is this really the right system and mechanics to represent the sort of game I want to run and play?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So a few things.

1. READ OTHER SYSTEMS. If you have already, great! If you haven't, do so. This helps you to see how other systems are built and how they function. You appear to have read d20 and have some familiarity with WoD, but is that all? A common mistake made by first-timers is to have read D&D, think that you can just go and write a better version, and then go from there without ever realizing the breadth of systems currently on the market. Relatedly,

I'm gonna second this so many times. :smallsmile:

It's not just about "know what's out there so that you don't repeat it", either. Game design means learning the language of game mechanics, and the best way to do that is to read and play a lot of games. Read a lot of games, play different games, and experiment a lot. I have at least a dozen abandoned RPG ideas in one of the folders on an old flash drive from college. All of them are mechanically funky in some way or another. That's my way of playing around with game elements.

It can also help your design brain to see how different designers do things; Technoir, Shock:, Posthuman Pathways, and Shadowrun all do the sort of sci-fi you're thinking about, but in dramatically different ways. Learning about other people's voices is a great way to develop your own.

Good luck, though! If you have any particular questions, pass 'em along.

[Anonymouswizard]

So a few things.

1. READ OTHER SYSTEMS. If you have already, great! If you haven't, do so. This helps you to see how other systems are built and how they function. You appear to have read d20 and have some familiarity with WoD, but is that all? A common mistake made by first-timers is to have read D&D, think that you can just go and write a better version, and then go from there without ever realizing the breadth of systems currently on the market.

Thirding this. I once tried to write a cyberpunk game, only to discover it would be better built by just ripping all the fantasy out of shadowrun.


Relatedly,

2. What does this do that other systems don't? Why is an extant d20 system, or Eclipse Phase, or Traveler, or any of the myriad other sci-fi-centric systems out there not suitable for your purposes? Do you just want to build a system, or do you have something against current systems used in for sci-fi gaming? Back to point one, are you familiar with any of these other systems?

Again important. I'm currently working on a post apocalyptic fantasy game, and working to make it was different as possible from the closest one I can find (Earthdawn). Why would I use your system over setting hacks of the Dark Heresy and Shadowrun books I own?


4. On a setting note, your ftl/tech stuff just sounds like the phlebotnium behind Mass Effect, Element Zero. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but what you've described is almost literally just how the mass effect works.

It isn't quite, as ME works on negative mass and this phlebotnium is more of a "use gravatics/gravatronics to bend space" kind of deal. A lot of people will see it was being ripped out of mass effect though.

Also, is the d20 system right for the game/genre? My personal system has move from completely custom, to standard dice pool, to "d20 with 3d6", to a new custom system designed to emphasise a PC's natural talent (which counts for, on average, 4 points of learned skills). Research other systems (if you haven't already, I suggest savage worlds and any d% system, as well as ones like fate), and then work out what your system wants to emphasise. Focus on one genre so you can get the basic feel, and then branch out to include the others you think fit.

[kyoryu]

I'm gonna second this so many times. :smallsmile:

It's not just about "know what's out there so that you don't repeat it", either. Game design means learning the language of game mechanics, and the best way to do that is to read and play a lot of games. Read a lot of games, play different games, and experiment a lot. I have at least a dozen abandoned RPG ideas in one of the folders on an old flash drive from college. All of them are mechanically funky in some way or another. That's my way of playing around with game elements.

It can also help your design brain to see how different designers do things; Technoir, Shock:, Posthuman Pathways, and Shadowrun all do the sort of sci-fi you're thinking about, but in dramatically different ways. Learning about other people's voices is a great way to develop your own.

To add to this:

Don't just read a lot of games, play them. Many times, how a game *plays* is very different from how it *reads*. This tends to especially be the case with some of the games on the lighter end of the scale.

And play different games - 3.0, 3.5, and PF don't count. Find utterly weird stuff, and try it out. Try some narrative games. Try some crunch-heavy games.

Think about *why* the games are designed the way they are. For each rule you see, ask yourself "huh, why did they do things this way?"

And lastly, when designing your game, worry less about the mechanics and more about the *decisions* that the players make. Ultimately, the mechanics exist to help create interesting decisions for players - after all, Sid Meier has said that a game is a "series of interesting decisions", and I tend to agree with him (especially when you remove the physical component of games). So think about what decisions are being made, when they're being made, and which decisions are more important in your game.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's very emblematic of the design behind Civilization. :smallbiggrin: "Just one more turn" happens because you keep getting given interesting decisions to make, or you're waiting to see what the consequences of your choices were. Or you're waiting to get the stuff that you need to make other decisions.

[kyoryu]

That's very emblematic of the design behind Civilization. :smallbiggrin: "Just one more turn" happens because you keep getting given interesting decisions to make, or you're waiting to see what the consequences of your choices were. Or you're waiting to get the stuff that you need to make other decisions.

Sid Meier is a smart man.

I also like that way of thinking about design, because it puts the player front and center.

[ThreadNecro5]

wow, that quite a lot of replies in only a few days, so to replay to most of what has been said:

ok so, as far as reading other game systems iv read the pathfinder books, a little 3.5, a fair amount of WOD stuff, primarily vampire and werewolf, and have some stuff from the fantasy flight games 40k RPS's lying around, and iv heard of traveler, so i'l give it and other stuff look.

mechanics wise part of why im doing my changes is to avoid walking into the 'ole wall-o-copyright should I ever do anything with the game that may make it a problem, beside the fact im trying to make something that I would personalty consider fun as a player, which seems like a good idea to design from.

as far as what I want the setting to do, im hoping for a relatively in death system (but not too much that it will bog down the game) that, as I said, can replicate any 'type' of sci-fi as needed (e.g. based on local area and conditions in the in-setting universe), sorry if im a bit vague on this point or not answering the question clearly. one thing that's likely of be a part of it is that is wont be human-centric, or even humanoid-centric, (well in the early stages it probably will, but that mainly because it is easiest write the rules around what people know, and point out the variables from there, so far the main alien idea that ive got, and drew some concept art for to test the looks, are essentially 8ft tall termites.

as for what has been mentioned about the whole civilization, "Just one more turn", thing, im hoping the way experience points will be used (as I said earlier, like in the WOD games where it is spend towards gradual increases to things), combined with other things il add (e.g. ship customization, getting new equipment, mechanical and biological enhancement, that sort of stuff will hopefully serve to make character progression fun enough, giving the players new toys is always a useful way for this type of thing (is for me at least)

and yes, now that I look at it the in-setting phlebotnium is a bit like mass effect's, I actually originally got the idea on a thread on a different site about alien ideas which I was lurking in. I figured it was handy as it can offer an explanation to other sci-fi problems like artificial gravity besides sounding fun to play with from a design perspective.

also thanks for all the advice in general, i am starting the basic mechanics today, while once im done with that and character creation, I can rope some relatives into playtesting. hope to update in a few days but will be watching and any advice is appreciated.

[Knaight]

I would strongly recommend reading either Microscope or Fiasco. You want a broad perspective, and the further out you get from traditional games, the better. Plus, Microscope is amazing.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Swords Without Master is also on my "recommended reading" list for would-be designers, because it's just as far-out as those games, but in an entirely different way.

[ThreadNecro5]

iv just had a look at the games the last few people have mentioned, bit I am a bit lost trying to look up 'swords without master', I can get to this site: http://www.worldswithoutmaster.com/ and then im lost, could someone help me along in researching it please?

also 'Microscope' is an interesting concept, will try to research more.

as far as what Ive done so far, iv got a simple introduction for those new to tabletop RPGs written, all standard stuff, explains some game lingo, dice conventions, a simple list of what is needed to prepare for the game, that kind of thing. can post if anyone want a look.

as for the other games ive been looking up iv been inspired by what ive heard of another games character generation system (traveler?) that involves some random rolls in character generation or something like that, cant find much info on that part of the game but I like the concept behind it and am using some of the ideas, thinking allowing the player to choose from a list or randomly determine effects, so either a player can come in with a concept or just see where the dice take them. as a side benefit of this also makes generating characters for new guys simple as its just roll a few dice for the most part.

any ideas/sources of inspiration for stuff I could stick on a character background table (both benefits and disadvantages) would be helpful.

[Grinner]

iv just had a look at the games the last few people have mentioned, bit I am a bit lost trying to look up 'swords without master', I can get to this site: http://www.worldswithoutmaster.com/ and then im lost, could someone help me along in researching it please?

You can buy it here (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/127967/Worlds-Without-Master-Volume-1-Issue-3).


as far as what Ive done so far, iv got a simple introduction for those new to tabletop RPGs written, all standard stuff, explains some game lingo, dice conventions, a simple list of what is needed to prepare for the game, that kind of thing. can post if anyone want a look.

You might actually want to do away with the introduction to RPGs. Realistically, anyone playing your game is already going to know what an RPG is.


as for the other games ive been looking up iv been inspired by what ive heard of another games character generation system (traveler?) that involves some random rolls in character generation or something like that, cant find much info on that part of the game but I like the concept behind it and am using some of the ideas, thinking allowing the player to choose from a list or randomly determine effects, so either a player can come in with a concept or just see where the dice take them. as a side benefit of this also makes generating characters for new guys simple as its just roll a few dice for the most part.

This is commonly called a "lifepath" mechanic. It's a subject of heated debate.

The problem is that while it makes character creation simple, it also limits the players' creative control over their characters. Some lifepath systems do away with the random lifepath idea, allowing players to choose what happens, but that inevitably leads to min-maxing.

[Mr.Moron]

Understand how mechanics influence the tone of your setting and the group dynamics between players. They should serve to reinforce the kinds of experiences the game is meant to generate, even if you have to sacrifice some elegance in the system.

[neonchameleon]

wow, that quite a lot of replies in only a few days, so to replay to most of what has been said:

ok so, as far as reading other game systems iv read the pathfinder books, a little 3.5, a fair amount of WOD stuff, primarily vampire and werewolf, and have some stuff from the fantasy flight games 40k RPS's lying around, and iv heard of traveler, so i'l give it and other stuff look.

Other suggested games (that avoid the D&D family and WoD family approach):

Fiasco (just a repeat - it's that worthwhile). Fate Core and Fate Accelarated - possibly also Atomic Robo. Apocalypse World and then Monsterhearts - and Ghost Lines when you've done that (about six pages). Also the Apocalypse World: TDA playtest currently going on. Leverage: the RPG and possibly also Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. Dogs in the Vineyard. My Life With Master. Lasers and Feelings (http://onesevendesign.com/lasers_and_feelings_rpg.pdf). Dread (the one with the Jenga tower). Something Burning Wheel-ish - probably Mouseguard. Something out of the OSR (probably Adventurer/Conqueror/King and Vornheim both - and possibly also Dungeon Crawl Classics). Lady Blackbird (http://www.onesevendesign.com/ladyblackbird/lady_blackbird.pdf). Something of the One Roll Engine - I recommend Better Angels although Monsters and other Childish Things would be a good choice. Pendragon. Oh, and one of the FFG Dice Pool games - either WFRP 3e or one of their Star Wars RPGs.

The only one on that list I'd consider remotely heavy reading is Pendragon.

And remember: To borrow from one source is called plagiarism. To borrow from two sources is research. It's perfectly fine to use lifepaths for character generation; my Hunger Games hack uses it. As do a number of other games. Just make sure you couldn't remotely confuse it with Traveller.

[Prince Raven]

My favourite thing about any RPG is when they have a detailed index which links to the page on the PDF.

[ThreadNecro5]

so taking into account what has been said, here is a more concrete idea of what iv got for character creation:

first you select your your species, their will be a total of ten.

summary of playable species:
human. is... well human.

robot (slightly different mechanics depending of what built it).

species that is essentially a 8ft tall termite, and can spray an enzyme that converts metal into a clay like substance that can consumed and late ruse as building material (forms basis for their technology).

a species from a low gravity world whose home planet has a large amount of the material that manipulates gravity. most of the planets life forms naturally produce electricity (like an electric eel can) to use the material. the spices uses this material to naturally fly and are filter feeders. they somewhat resemble pyrosomes. they lack limbs but possess prehensile tentacles.

a half-researched idea for a sulfur based life form, will produce a hydrocarbon as a natural by product which naturally ignites due to the high temperature they live at, also they use sulfuric acid as we use water. (yes a species with acid blood and that are on fire at nearly all times, I don't know how I though of that either)

a vaguely arachnid-like humanoid with natural mantis-like claws and who inhabits mountains, are strong jumpers. tend to inhabit reasons they can climb

something fish-like that resembles a cross between a moray eel, a mudskipper, and an ostrich. despite being aquatic they can walk on land and breathe air as long as their gill-equivalents are wet. for arms they posses a pair of pseudo-jaw equipped tongues.

a species who appear as a combination of a overgrown rat and a small gorilla, background wise they were accidentally uplifted by humans in early-ish. im planning to subvert the whole space-vermin thing by making them actually close allies to humans. they are also the closest to human-like-aliens im planning for things to get.

a colony of worm-like creatures who inhabit creature’s bones and utilize their skeleton as a makeshift shelter, like hermit crabs and a shell. they communicate internally through a cluster of nerves that send signals between each other. instead of vocalizations they communicate with other through pulses of bio-luminescence.

a mercantile race from cold tundra/Desert conditions who are able to see in the infrared spectrum and posses a scorpion like tail. they also posses a pair of vestigial limbs of their back that, while useless can serve as a mounting for a hang-glider like apparatus.

then you determine stats though either point buy or stat rolling as normal in d20 type games that ive seen. with a tweak on how stats work that a stat can only naturally rise to 18+ species modifier, without outside modifiers such as equipment.

after this is the class equivalent which determines things like initial skills and hit points and some starting equipment. this is done in two stages one is like the standard 'archetypes' for a character like sneaky guy or smart guy, that sort of stuff, and this combined with one of a selection of further options that contains further specialization, like the 'smart guy' character option could be an engineer or a specialist in alien biology.

after this is choosing starting fears and skill points, as normal

then its rolling on some D100 tables to determine (or choosing from them) a number of starting advantages and disadvantages.

then finally, due to how im using XP in game, you spend it towards things like stat boosts, skill bonuses, extra HP, ect. with any leftover becomes your starting currency.

does this sound ok or is it a bit convoluted?.

also as an idea, since will saves become mostly useless without magic, im thinking maybe use them instead like the sense motive skill, with checks by NPCs to deceive characters having a save DC of the skill check result. hows that for an idea?

[Grinner]

does this sound ok or is it a bit convoluted?.

It's not stunningly original and is certainly convoluted (though not much more so than D&D), but I suppose it could work.


also as an idea, since will saves become mostly useless without magic, im thinking maybe use them instead like the sense motive skill, with checks by NPCs to deceive characters having a save DC of the skill check result. hows that for an idea?

It's a little weird...It could be interesting. I don't think it's a particularly good idea though, unless you have you have a good intradiegetic reason for it. Rules should generally be fairly compartmentalized, since it's difficult to remember a bunch of exceptions. Every unusual rule you do make should say something about the game or the setting.

Put simply, exceptions should be exceptional.

[Knaight]

Quite honestly, it seems like a bog standard d20 knockoff. It's the sort of thing I'd probably abandon twenty pages in, just because it's so generic.

[Nobot]

My advice would be:

Just start writing and testing; make it up as you go. If you find that fun, continue.
Every time you find something in your setting/system that's not to your satisfaction, change it and test the changes. Repeat until satisfied.
Involve inspired friends.
Don't get discouraged by what other people already thought of.
Use other systems as a source of inspiration.
It's okay to improve on someone else's ideas (in my book: that is evolution of gaming).
Your first version will suck and it will change a lot.


When, in a few years, you still enjoy this process and consider offering your game to the public, then start fretting about other systems and what is really unique about yours. For now, produce what you have in mind and enjoy the creative process; it's fun.

Good luck!

[Cazero]

Your first version will suck and it will change a lot.


Seconding that heavily. Don't be afraid to have a sucky first draft. Successive reworks can turn an unplayable mess into something good.

[LibraryOgre]

On the read other systems front... lots of games have free introductions that you can download. These might be scenarios you can run, or simply "here's the rules of our game, pay money for a prettier version!" Heck, I have a free RPG system available (which I ripped off from another system), and link to others.

These will broaden your concept of what makes a good game, and help you get some different ideas.

[neonchameleon]

does this sound ok or is it a bit convoluted?

What's the hook. Why would I want to look at that rather than one of the other 10,000 games on the market?

[Dorian Gray]

To add to the list of things that you should absolutely read:
1) The GURPS system: one of the most flexible and universally admired rules-heavy systems. It is famous for doing exactly what you want your system to do (be able to model many, many different scenarios) incredibly well.
2) The FATE system: in my opinion, the best new RPG to come out in the last decade, and one of the most flexible rules-light systems. It has earned numerous accolades for its storytelling-based mechanics, and puts a heavy emphasis on collaborative narrating.

GURPS is an older-style system that puts a lot of emphasis into covering everything with its rules (and damn is it good at that), while FATE is geared more towards improvising (anything wrong? Just add a shift!). Now, you shouldn't try to copy either of these, but emulating the best features of good game systems isn't a bad thing.

[ThreadNecro5]

so recently between being busy and some technical problems, I haven't made much progress on rules and such, but to continue with the idea I had with changing how will saves work, it may aid in making the system more diplomacy based instead of players taking the 'buy gun, kill people, take stuff, murderhobo the night away' approach (unless you want that type of game), I think it could help the game become naturally more storytelling and roleplaying based by expanding the tools for social interaction.

also sudden idea I got just now, how about if I try making it a GMless system (idea inspired by some of the recommended reading you guys mentioned, never heard of such games before), allow the players to actively control the plot (il make a simplified NPC generator for this, and recommend that people bring several premade NPCs for general usage) and have the players take turns dictating the general events of the game on a 'scene-by-scene' basis, and also give all players a number of 'points' that they can spend to temporarily take control of actions (e.g. describe a scene, introduce an NPC, cause an event, ect), its like an idea I heard of from an RPG whose name im not sure of. to stop somebody from abusing this for their own benefit I can make it that an idea may be rejected by a group vote.

have to admit I like the idea, its different compared to a lot of what ive seen, involves the players deeply, and allows them to really allow their imagination free reign, the concept is something id consider playing. what does everybody else think?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I really like the idea of attaching specific actions to point expenditure. What if you had different Roles that had different (but sometimes overlapping) actions you could spend points to do?

[Mr Beer]

To add to the list of things that you should absolutely read:
1) The GURPS system: one of the most flexible and universally admired rules-heavy systems. It is famous for doing exactly what you want your system to do (be able to model many, many different scenarios) incredibly well.
2) The FATE system: in my opinion, the best new RPG to come out in the last decade, and one of the most flexible rules-light systems. It has earned numerous accolades for its storytelling-based mechanics, and puts a heavy emphasis on collaborative narrating.

GURPS is an older-style system that puts a lot of emphasis into covering everything with its rules (and damn is it good at that), while FATE is geared more towards improvising (anything wrong? Just add a shift!). Now, you shouldn't try to copy either of these, but emulating the best features of good game systems isn't a bad thing.

Seconded.

Read both of these, if you can justify why your game is better than either of these options, you are doing well.

[Geostationary]

also sudden idea I got just now, how about if I try making it a GMless system (idea inspired by some of the recommended reading you guys mentioned, never heard of such games before), allow the players to actively control the plot (il make a simplified NPC generator for this, and recommend that people bring several premade NPCs for general usage) and have the players take turns dictating the general events of the game on a 'scene-by-scene' basis, and also give all players a number of 'points' that they can spend to temporarily take control of actions (e.g. describe a scene, introduce an NPC, cause an event, ect), its like an idea I heard of from an RPG whose name im not sure of. to stop somebody from abusing this for their own benefit I can make it that an idea may be rejected by a group vote.

Mystic Empyrean is an rpg that actually does have a rotating GM hotseat of sorts, on a scene-by-scene basis. It's pretty unusual as far as rpgs go and I definitely recommend checking it out, but the other recommendations you've been getting are more immediately relevant in system terms. The points idea is definitely interesting; systems like FATE let you do similar sorts of things.

[the OOD]

in my experience (mostly in indy game design) the core of game design is constantly re-examining two questions(at least in the projects I've done)
1) what feelings / behavior do you want to evoke?
2) how do the mechanics of your game motivate this?

let's look at an example: the superlight system Wushu Open by Daniel Bayn
design goal: make the players feel like badass kung-fu movie stars
mechanic: roll (1-5 d6) based on how well you describe your action, no matter what the action.
simplistic? perhaps. but it serves as a very well-communicated design goal with a system that evokes a *very* wushu feel.

how about another example: Additive Basic, an x-files system of my design
design goals: dangerous, lethal combat. panicked, frantic feel.
mechanics: guns will drop a player to 1/4th hp on average, coupled with incredibly lethal injury/bleeding out charts. a skilled character has a high chance of success, but circumstance penalty will be piled on at every opportunity (gunfire often ends up at -10 or more(-4 half action, -2 shoot and run, -2 low light, -2 bleeding out))
try looking at the design goals of fate or exalted some time. how do the mechanics evoke the desired playstyle? what works? what doesn't work?


so, what kind of play do you want to evoke? and how are you planning on doing so?



for more design theory check out Extra Credits (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5BkTruCmaBBZ8z6cP9KzPiX), those guys are a treasure trove of information for starting designers.

[ThreadNecro5]

What if you had different Roles that had different (but sometimes overlapping) actions you could spend points to do?

nice, I like this idea, will include that.

also to update everyone on how character creation going, with the lifepath-like idea im adding the choice of a simplified or more detailed system, the simplified one containing the purely stat-important information, while the more in depth one offering more detailed but unnecessary information designed for story hooks and such, like number of siblings and weather you have living relatives and that kind of thing.

[ThreadNecro5]

ok, so might as well update on currant events, iv been working on the lifepath-style part of character creation and I don't remember if I said this before but its got three 'core' tables to roll on, for an advantage, disadvantage, and a bonus with drawbacks. other stuff is optional

also iv partly worked through the 'class' equivalents for the system, so im wondering how these sound fluffwise and with some character concepts to help describe them (and if im missing anything obvious to add):

Combatant
You are, for whatever reason, trained to fight. You are able to remain cool under the heat of combat and skilled in whatever weapons and tactics you were trained in.

Character concepts:
Trained military operative
Traveling mercenary
Big-game hunter
Warrior of a tribal society
Member of a group ceremonially trained in the usage of blades


Noble
You are in some way an important individual in some society you inhabit. Nobles are generally able to accrue a good deal of economic or political power.

Character concepts:
Member of a nation’s aristocracy
A politician on a planetary council
The manager of a trade empire
The vain child of wealthy parents who left home to travel the stars
A radical or revolutionary out to overthrow their homelands government


Outcast
You live apart or isolated from either your species or other beings in general. Outcasts are often able to pick up a number of skills and are tend to be self-sufficient.

Character concepts:
Homeless vagrant, making their way from ship to ship.
An early test subject in faster than light experimentation who got marooned across the galaxy and recently reconnected the major society
Traveling bounty hunter
Exile from their home culture
Self-styled ‘space cowboy’ traveling the galaxy and looking for adventure.


Intellectual
You’re an individual whose life is based on mental pursuits. Intellectuals tend to be effective with skills based around their intellect, in both the theoretical and physical uses them.

Character concepts:
A researcher of a distant region of space
A biologist working as part of a team to quantify the native life of a potential colony world
An unlicensed surgeon who specialises in designing and implanting illegal mechanical augmentations
A trainee medical professional studying the biology of a nonhuman sapient species
A hacker living the high life on stolen money


Professional (cant think of better name)
You are a ‘normal’ individual of your society, like the average worker or ‘man-on the street’ types of individual. The professional generally specialises in a narrow group of skills related to those of their career or lifestyle.

Character concepts:
A space ship pilot
The manager of a shipping company
The engineer in change of maintaining an old space station
A homeless drunk who takes whatever work that is available
An office clerk away on an interplanetary business trip


Lowlife
You exist on the underbelly of your parent society, existing as some form of a criminal of some variety. A lowlife will often become skilled at subterfuge, but they will ofted pick up any skills ufeful to them.

Character concepts:
Minor crime boss trying to build their criminal empire
Petty thug working from one job to the next
Pirate working out of an asteroid belt
Drug dealer
Smuggler of restricted goods


if anyone is wondering the purpose of these is to function as a 'chassis' for character creations that will be built off from.

also as for the name for these im using 'skillsets' but if anyone can come up with something better, id be grateful for the help.

[Anonymouswizard]

ok, so might as well update on currant events, iv been working on the lifepath-style part of character creation and I don't remember if I said this before but its got three 'core' tables to roll on, for an advantage, disadvantage, and a bonus with drawbacks. other stuff is optional

also iv partly worked through the 'class' equivalents for the system, so im wondering how these sound fluffwise and with some character concepts to help describe them (and if im missing anything obvious to add):

Okay, I'm going to go through these and give feedback.

First off, what's the purpose of the Skillsets. Are they like Dark Heresy's Careers, giving the character a loose chassis; or are they a set of "extra" abilities on top of what everyone can get?


Combatant
You are, for whatever reason, trained to fight. You are able to remain cool under the heat of combat and skilled in whatever weapons and tactics you were trained in.

Character concepts:
Trained military operative
Traveling mercenary
Big-game hunter
Warrior of a tribal society
Member of a group ceremonially trained in the usage of blades

What makes a combatant better at fighting than anyone else, and what can they do outside of combat? As long as they have abilities aside from fighting I see nothing wrong with it.


Noble
You are in some way an important individual in some society you inhabit. Nobles are generally able to accrue a good deal of economic or political power.

Character concepts:
Member of a nation’s aristocracy
A politician on a planetary council
The manager of a trade empire
The vain child of wealthy parents who left home to travel the stars
A radical or revolutionary out to overthrow their homelands government

Why Noble? I'm just interested in the reasoning behind the name.

So I assume that the idea behind the noble is influence and being the face? Sounds like it could work, and looks like the skillset for those high up in megacorporations as well as nobles and politicians.

I'm worried about balancing having "influence" against the abilities of other Skillsets, but if it revolved around manipulating a contacts system I could see it as being fun.


Outcast
You live apart or isolated from either your species or other beings in general. Outcasts are often able to pick up a number of skills and are tend to be self-sufficient.

Character concepts:
Homeless vagrant, making their way from ship to ship.
An early test subject in faster than light experimentation who got marooned across the galaxy and recently reconnected the major society
Traveling bounty hunter
Exile from their home culture
Self-styled ‘space cowboy’ traveling the galaxy and looking for adventure.

So a reverse Noble? To be honest the only reason I can see for this being a Skillset is for a Scoundrel archetype. It sounds good, but I'd personally recommend a different moniker.

Sounds more like a background though.


Intellectual
You’re an individual whose life is based on mental pursuits. Intellectuals tend to be effective with skills based around their intellect, in both the theoretical and physical uses them.

Character concepts:
A researcher of a distant region of space
A biologist working as part of a team to quantify the native life of a potential colony world
An unlicensed surgeon who specialises in designing and implanting illegal mechanical augmentations
A trainee medical professional studying the biology of a nonhuman sapient species
A hacker living the high life on stolen money

So I assume science and technology aren't particularly important to your game, seeing as all the knowledge stuff is lumped here (my space opera game splits this into 3/4 archetypes). Probably what I'd end up playing a lot, because it seems to have the most connected character concepts (this looks like the skillset used by both artillery focused trip and reconnaissance focused characters, as well as scientists, navigators and doctors), but how it works really depends on the depth of the skill system. I can't judge it any further without context.


Professional (cant think of better name)
You are a ‘normal’ individual of your society, like the average worker or ‘man-on the street’ types of individual. The professional generally specialises in a narrow group of skills related to those of their career or lifestyle.

Character concepts:
A space ship pilot
The manager of a shipping company
The engineer in change of maintaining an old space station
A homeless drunk who takes whatever work that is available
An office clerk away on an interplanetary business trip

Not really sure about this one, it sounds like a "catchall".

I've just noticed that both this and Noble claim to be the Skillset for my corporate character.


Lowlife
You exist on the underbelly of your parent society, existing as some form of a criminal of some variety. A lowlife will often become skilled at subterfuge, but they will ofted pick up any skills ufeful to them.

Character concepts:
Minor crime boss trying to build their criminal empire
Petty thug working from one job to the next
Pirate working out of an asteroid belt
Drug dealer
Smuggler of restricted goodsgoods

Wait, here's our scoundrel character.

As intellectual is one Skillset, I wonder why this has been separated from Outcast.


if anyone is wondering the purpose of these is to function as a 'chassis' for character creations that will be built off from.

also as for the name for these im using 'skillsets' but if anyone can come up with something better, id be grateful for the help.

For my space opera game I've gone with Archetype, but there the point is to reduce the cost of a few skills and merits, and add a few abilities (which build upon options available to anyone). Skillset works fine here, as the categories are fairly broad.

[ThreadNecro5]

Okay, I'm going to go through these and give feedback.

First off, what's the purpose of the Skillsets. Are they like Dark Heresy's Careers, giving the character a loose chassis; or are they a set of "extra" abilities on top of what everyone can get?

yes, they are esentaly like dark heresy characters in concept, for basing a character around.


What makes a combatant better at fighting than anyone else, and what can they do outside of combat? As long as they have abilities aside from fighting I see nothing wrong with it.

the idea is that they will start with easier assess to weapons than everyone else (including starting with some), out of combat they have the same base ability's as everyone gets, just none of the other skillset's special stuff that they may have.


Why Noble? I'm just interested in the reasoning behind the name.

cant think of a better name, im not so good a naming stuff.


So I assume that the idea behind the noble is influence and being the face? Sounds like it could work, and looks like the skillset for those high up in megacorporations as well as nobles and politicians.

I'm worried about balancing having "influence" against the abilities of other Skillsets, but if it revolved around manipulating a contacts system I could see it as being fun.

that's the idea, as for balancing the influence im planning it to be a combination of good social skills, tossing money at things, and enhancing the players ability to expend a number of points that everyone gets to alter plot events, so they could conveniently call in a favor from someone, or they could now owe someone one for example, beyond other effects.


So a reverse Noble? To be honest the only reason I can see for this being a Skillset is for a Scoundrel archetype. It sounds good, but I'd personally recommend a different moniker.

Sounds more like a background though.

now that I think about it this and the lowlife could be merged, combining the concepts.


So I assume science and technology aren't particularly important to your game, seeing as all the knowledge stuff is lumped here (my space opera game splits this into 3/4 archetypes). Probably what I'd end up playing a lot, because it seems to have the most connected character concepts (this looks like the skillset used by both artillery focused trip and reconnaissance focused characters, as well as scientists, navigators and doctors), but how it works really depends on the depth of the skill system. I can't judge it any further without context.

the importance will generally vary depending on the events of the group but im hoping for skills to be a major part. as for a currant lack of context for stuff it is because character creation is needing a lot of things working at the same time, so im having to work through things in bits and pieces.


Not really sure about this one, it sounds like a "catchall".

I've just noticed that both this and Noble claim to be the Skillset for my corporate character.

this is supposed to represent a more 'commoner' type of person as well as more work foccused people, in the corporate character idea, with this compared with the noble, this is a more lower down manager in this case, while the noble is the more megacorp type. this could also represent that managers secretory, or a mechanic among other ideas.


Wait, here's our scoundrel character.

As intellectual is one Skillset, I wonder why this has been separated from Outcast.

yep as I said earlier will be merging the ideas.


For my space opera game I've gone with Archetype, but there the point is to reduce the cost of a few skills and merits, and add a few abilities (which build upon options available to anyone). Skillset works fine here, as the categories are fairly broad.

will continue with the name skillset then, but will keep archetype in mind if I need another similar name for something.

also overall thanks for the critique, will make the adjustments I mentioned above.


also to anyone in this thread, I am currently collecting ideas for the lifepath-like system (seems the simplest large chunk I can finish at once) so any ideas for significant background events (both good, bad and mixed effects) would be helpful, will post again once the lifepath tables are near competition.