About PC Killing.

[Yael]

Now, I didn't wanted to bring my problems up to the internet, but I had to do so, especially because they are TTRPG related, and advice is really needed.

Thing is, do you remember the "friendly dude" from the Aiming for the head... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355989-3-5-Aiming-for-the-head&highlight=Aiming+for+the+Head) thread? Well, he's back, and now against me as a DM.

Long story short, the party is exploring a new continent to human kind; they got into a desert, and, while looking for shelter, they got inside a buried castle under the sand, which ended up being a dungeon.

Now, I must clarify this before continuing, I asked the party if strong-level NPCs could have an appearance, so they would bring interesting story arcs, and the campaign is aimed for a high-powered setting, so, because we are used to have high roleplaying, and taking extreme care about your decisions, so you won't get killed. We have been applying this since a CoCD&D Game where we would face Elder Gods as 11th level characters, but not to fight, but to speak and have a conversation, with our creeps and sanity about to explode outside of our bodies, and so. Again, we all agreed to play it that way, epic-level NPCs are everywhere (not like everywhere, but you won't know who is one), so you must play your cards accordingly. Of course, because they are level 7 average, I won't place a challenge that big, just NPCs with high levels to roleplay and, with discresion, don't kill the PCs.

Now, this guy from the thread I linked up there wanted to have a game with us. I was doubtful about letting him have a try, because of his attitude towards one of my players (which was the DM mentioned in the thread above), but in the end, I allowed him to stay. I warned him about the campaign, filled him with details about the campaign itself, and didn't forget to tell him about the high-level NPCs. HE AGREED.

Now, the center of the current thread:

This new PC (a rogue) entered the game as another explorer whose ship sank during the last storm, and he was carried by the waves to the continent, he was low on food and water, and he found the entrance to the Buried Castle of Van'Razz, by accident, of course, so he decided to go inside. He found the party at some point, but because the party is composed by CE characters, they played with his character a lot (a funny tactic waas the: Newbah, where if someone failed to open a lock, or succeed on pushing down a stuck door, the barbarian himself would kick the door along with the person that was trying to open that lock, this has been a tradition if we have a barbarian, nothing against the rogue, though, and this happens to every new character to the party.)

This rogue was almost assassinated by the party, because of his "sharp tounge", but because of the pledge of a good character, they didn't kill him (diplomacy please.) After that, the "good" npc healed the rogue and, after the elf dissapeared (the good guy), he went by himself into the dungeon (the party was ahead.)

Now, the party met a really high-level character (with a CR of 15th), who introduced himself as: Rol'Tanizka, Slaughter of the Legend, a drow sorcadin. He declared his intentions, he is looking for a snow elf who is supposed to be a legend. The party know the elf, but they didn't know where this npc is right now, so they told him the last place they saw him, so Rol'Tanizka departed. In the way, the drow found the rogue, and asked him (with brute strength) about the elf, which the rogue responded in a "cool" way with: Who do you think you are to question me with such brute force?!
Rol'Tanizka is a CE paladin of slaughter, but I, as a DM, gave the rogue a chance to do not get killed, so Rol simply crashed the rogue into the wall, still grappling him, and, again, introduced himself: "I am Rol'Tanizka, the Slaughter of Legends, and I am looking for the white elf, H-A-V-E Y-O-U S-E-E H-I-M?!"
At which the rogue remained silent, the paladin lost interest and let him go, then he was about to continue with his way when another PC got into the hallway, and asked the paladin "Why you want to meet him?" The paladin turned his view to the girl, and answered: "I have no need to tell you, weaklings, about my plans. But by common sense, I am the Slaughter of the Legend, and my job is to eliminate the so-called legends, just as that snow elf." Then the drow turned his whole body to the party who had just arrived; "In any case, are YOU a legend?" The slaughter asked towards the party.http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexshadow/pics/drey.jpg

Every player was obviously seeing this, the NPC would eliminate them if they played in a fool way, I mean, it's a CE paladin of slaughter whose title is to slay legends, they have no need to doubt the nature of his intentions. I showed the whole players the looks of the drow, just the same image in the spoiler up there. They all answered in the following way, when he asked directly to each party member...

Rol'Tanizka: Are YOU a legend?
Barbarian: No.
Rol'Tanizka: Are YOU a legend?
Fighter: No.
Rol'Tanizka: Are YOU a legend?
Gunslinger: No.
Rol'Tanizka: Are YOU a legend?
Artificer: No.
Rol'Tanizka: Are YOU a legend?
Rogue: Yes, I am very recognized from where I come.

For this last answer, I (and every other player) was looking at him in a "WTH?" way, and I, the DM, asked him: Are you sure you tell him that? Like, are you REALLY SURE that it is your answer? Which he replied: Yes, because my character is very charismatic.
Big mistake, I took a look at his sheet before the game and he had a CHA modifier of +0, anyway, moving on.

The NPC looked at him, and told him that he wouldn't be a legend, by the looks, so he made a test for him, he extracted a stone from his pocket, and summoned a Gelatinous Cube (by the spell: Engulfing Terror). Everyone made a spot check, everyone succeed... Except for the rogue, so he asked: "What's going on? Aren't you going to fight me or something, talking drow?!" For which the drow replied: The trial has already begun.

Long story short (again) the cube got into the rogue's square with the rogue not noticing, because he just sat in the floor, because he didn't see nothing. He was paralyzed, and took 3 damage every turn, until the Paladin dispelled the effect and, the rogue with 2hp was still paralyzed.

"You are nothing, kid..." After that, the paladin touched the rogue for 5 damage (deadly touch), leaving him at 0 (succesful will save), then he kicked the boy with strength for another 4 damage, and leaved the PC at -4. At this point, I was pretty sure that we wouldn't die, so I leaved him in that state, the drow moved on, ignored the rest of the party, and continued with his path. Then, the party's Barbarian got close to the rogue, and killed him by decapitation. Just like that...

After this, I penalized the Barbarian for 500 exp because of the murder of another party member, but what happened next is the TRUE reason of this thread.

See, this player was asking why I killed him, which I answered with my argument about the warning in the beggining of the game, the NPC's level, and everything that everyone already knew. When he was shouting his weak arguments, with nothing being true, just a lot of bolony, he started calling me an AWFUL DM, just like before, then he mentioned something... "Well, let's just stop fighting, or someone would end up crying", he said that just when sitting at the side of the EX-DM, who he made cry the last game he was in. He also claimed: "I am fighting because I will be right at some point." And he left with a: "You're a terrible DM, you can't kill your PCs, you're the DM, you aren't supposed to kill your PCs, get better."

I was just... OMG... I just need words, something? Was I wrong? It's the very same guy, I thought that he would be different, but he ain't changing, he's into some serious s*** and no one wants him nowhere... I am really in seek of an answer... PCs can be killed, right? I mean, when circumstances meet, you have no choice but to have them take their risks, and try to overcome them with their character sheet and dice... Not everything is a holy divine grace where the DM will save you everytime... I've saved everyone at least once, but because they should have a second chance... But... This... Oh may gawd... Just... I can get over this, but was really necesary to kill him, or stop his behavior? I know that don't inviting him again is a choice, but I don't know...

[DocWoollybear]

...yeah, that death was completely deserved. I think you were about as merciful as you could have been without breaking immersion. If anything, he should be mad at the player who executed him when he was down. Try not to get too worked up over it, if he can't handle not having plot armor, he should play a different game :smalltongue:.

[Troacctid]

You were pretty reasonable here. He picked a fight with a character he knew was out of his league. You let him off easy, leaving him unconscious when you could have easily had the drow finish the job. Then his jackass CE party member backstabbed him while he was knocked out. Seriously? Who does that?

I suppose you could have disallowed evil alignments from your game, or interrupted the barbarian's coup de gras with the Acme Spontaneous DM Anvil That Drops On Your Head From Out Of Nowhere™. But that's on the heavy-handed side.

[Sir Garanok]

That's really weird behavior and it seems it's not a one time incident.

I might have killed him earlier considering the paladins alignment.

Always remember a good dnd party is consisted of people who get along in real life too.

[Knaight]

The acceptability of killing PCs is a general group dynamic thing - and it sounds like literally everyone else in the group is entirely fine with PC death. On top of that, it's not like you went out of your way to kill the PC. You merely adjudicated events, and the player in question was pretty much pushing for their PC being killed. That it was by another PC is a bit iffier, as that's a completely different group dynamic question.

Also, I'm not sure why you're playing with this guy to begin with. There were already tensions between him and an existing player, and now there's this blow up.

[SciChronic]

D&D clearly isnt the game for him, he's just looking for a power fantasy and there are hundred of video games that would do that for him. i would cut him from the group cause he's cancerous to the other players.

[PrincessCupcake]

The job of a DM is to make sure the only way a PC actually dies is to either a) act of unbelievable chance, b) a dramatically appropriate moment, or c) PC stupidity.

You gave him every opportunity to not die. You gave him three chances to avoid any sort of harm being tossed his way, and he took the stupid road anyway. He made the deliberate decision to poke the Elder Evil in the eye, and is now whining because said Elder Evil got angry. For your part, you deliberately didn't kill the idiot. When you were done, he was alive. This is where your responsibility ends.

The party Barbarian was a whole other can of worms, but was in no way your fault. If he's blaming you for that PC's shenanigans he deserves the door hitting his *** on the way out. Do not invite him back. You and the rest of your group will be happier.

[Yahzi]

I hope your player reads this, because he made a terrible, terrible mistake. When the drow asked about legends, the rogue should have piped up and bragged about how utterly, utterly famous the barbarian was.

I mean, getting kicked through a door because you're not fast enough? Like you're some kind of flunky? That deserves a little payback. Ratting the barb out to a monstrous murder machine seems pretty appropriate to me. And if it got the rest of the party killed - well, they were all laughing while the rogue was being harassed, so frankly, not much of a loss there either.

And then... the rogue... the rogue... failed a spot check against a Gelatinous Cube? This is their trap detector - a guy who can't see, hear, or smell a ton of rotting jello lumbering up to eat him? That seems unusually incompetent. And I did not realize it was necessary to make spot checks to detect creatures about to eat you, but such a precedent does rather imply that no one ever survives more than 19 encounters...

You're not a terrible DM for killing characters, or for using creatures too dangerous to handle (as long as they are marked). But your party sounds like a pretty horrible bunch of people to be stuck in a dungeon with. Frankly, the crippled, incompetent, flunky-boy rogue is probably better off dead.

[Harlot]

The rogue pokes and pokes and pokes and POKES at the figurative beehive, and when he's finally stung, he's crying about it! Pathetic.
Looks to me that you've given the PC plenty of chances to avoid death and still he was determined to seek it out.

Please don't fret about it, you seem to be a really fair DM.

The rogue-player should be kicked out of the group. D&D is about fun and joy and he is depriving the group of both.
If he is not a good friend IRL, there's really no loss.

Also, the barbarian has issues - regardless of being CE, killing a fellow PC is generally not OK. (if that was the former DM getiing his revenge, thats understandable, but still not ok.)

[Brookshw]

I'm still a bit baffled that you let him into the game but it was fair from what I can see, nothing for you to blame yourself about.

[The Random NPC]

I hope your player reads this, because he made a terrible, terrible mistake. When the drow asked about legends, the rogue should have piped up and bragged about how utterly, utterly famous the barbarian was.

I mean, getting kicked through a door because you're not fast enough? Like you're some kind of flunky? That deserves a little payback. Ratting the barb out to a monstrous murder machine seems pretty appropriate to me. And if it got the rest of the party killed - well, they were all laughing while the rogue was being harassed, so frankly, not much of a loss there either.

And then... the rogue... the rogue... failed a spot check against a Gelatinous Cube? This is their trap detector - a guy who can't see, hear, or smell a ton of rotting jello lumbering up to eat him? That seems unusually incompetent. And I did not realize it was necessary to make spot checks to detect creatures about to eat you, but such a precedent does rather imply that no one ever survives more than 19 encounters...

You're not a terrible DM for killing characters, or for using creatures too dangerous to handle (as long as they are marked). But your party sounds like a pretty horrible bunch of people to be stuck in a dungeon with. Frankly, the crippled, incompetent, flunky-boy rogue is probably better off dead.

Gelatinous Cubes require a DC 15 spot check to notice. If the Rogue was maxing out their spot, at 7th level they'd have 10 ranks. Assuming a Wisdom score of 0 they can fail on a roll of 4 or lower. That corresponds to a 20% chance of failure, with the failure chance moving in 5% increments based on modifiers (distraction, Wisdom bonus, less ranks, etc). If the rogue put no ranks into spot, they would need a combined total of -6 to have a 100% failure chance, which is rather easy to do as you take a -1 per 10 feet of distance.

Aside: Assuming the 19 encounters is a reference to rolling a natural 1, remember skill checks do not automatically fail or succeed on a roll of 1 or 20 respectively.

[atemu1234]

Here's the thing: You outright warned the PC against what he was doing.

The pros: This PC is out of line, be glad he's out of the game. Give him a chance to get better, and join another game. But let him know if he does this again, he's out.

The cons: It's metagame, and for all I know he's a roleplaying character. He did respond trying to stay in character (the character must think of himself as charismatic, even if he isn't) but again, this PC is out of line.

Also, you're the DM. At least 25% of the job is killing PCs. Or trying to, at any rate. Then its 25% keeping the rules, and 50% keeping the characters.

[Shining Wrath]

This was perfectly in character for a CE barbarian. He owed the rogue no loyalty, after all, and the rogue was evidently stupid enough to pose a risk to the party - anyone who missed their spot check on the cube was in trouble, it just turned out that the dice decided it was only the rogue that missed.

If he wasn't killed, a CE party might very well tell him to get lost. For CE, it's about getting what they want with no restrictions, and this guy isn't helping them get what they want.

If you're going to run a campaign with CE characters, intra-party murder should not be considered off limits. Which means you don't get yourself into a position where you can be casually murdered.

I would suggest not playing with him again.

[Balor01]

You can kill anybody you want for any reason. If people stay with you, you are doing something right.