Difficulty of campaign, DM advice

[j_spencer93]

Well first of, this thread is really only to ask if other DMs out there have experienced players that really only enjoy life or death battles in D&D and some advice in making campaign with this theme without going overboard.
My players really only enjoy a battle when their are slugging it out and barely leaving with their lives. If they walk over their foes then they immediately lose interest and the game becomes boring for everyone. Now, my players think that their level 12 psionic monk build who is dealing 60 points per hit is OP, so making these kind of encounters without making their horrendous builds apparent leaves me baffled alot of the times. They also basically detest any mundane creature they come across. Have seen them kill NPC's who bored them for fun...

Anyone have any really good ideas they have used in the past that made their players excited while almost killing them in the process? Like interesting traps that need a unique way to overcome or strange but cool NPC ideas?

[defiantdan]

Shadowcraft mage. Illusion them to death. Let them fight a druid/planar sheperd with a magebred warbeast fleshraker animal companion. Wizard planeshifts them to the fire plane. Earth Spell trap all the squares in a room with Summon Monster (appropriate level). Again Druid, suddenly an avalanche of snow falls on all of you (avalanche spell), followed by now it's blizzarding (blizzard spell), the snow around you starts to leech your con (blood snow), also now you see a tornado (control winds spell).

Invisible Malconvonker does nothing but summon. Teleports away just to do it again later. Harassing them constantly so they can't sleep. Dispel Magic to destroy any rope tricks.

Really any caster can just just mess with this group for days and days. if all your group does is hitpoint damage, have a wizard with delay death and beastland ferocity. Then have him punch your pc's with piddley subdual damage until they are all unconcious.

[jedipilot24]

Well first of, this thread is really only to ask if other DMs out there have experienced players that really only enjoy life or death battles in D&D and some advice in making campaign with this theme without going overboard.
My players really only enjoy a battle when their are slugging it out and barely leaving with their lives. If they walk over their foes then they immediately lose interest and the game becomes boring for everyone. Now, my players think that their level 12 psionic monk build who is dealing 60 points per hit is OP, so making these kind of encounters without making their horrendous builds apparent leaves me baffled alot of the times. They also basically detest any mundane creature they come across. Have seen them kill NPC's who bored them for fun...

Anyone have any really good ideas they have used in the past that made their players excited while almost killing them in the process? Like interesting traps that need a unique way to overcome or strange but cool NPC ideas?

My advice is to just go ahead and TPK them in such a way that exploits the weaknesses of their horrendous builds as well as their behavior, and then explain it to them if they still don't get it.
Like, for example, the next time the time they attack an NPC that bores them, have him turn out to be a Tippy-level wizard who then slaughters them. Or make one of the NPC's they've killed out of boredom turn out to have some really nasty relatives who are PISSED at his/her death.

[nedz]

Use more Kobolds :smallwink:

[j_spencer93]

like some of defiantdan's ideas. And i have killed them before, crushing fist of spite or whatever it is called until they were jelly on the floor. It doesnt matter. They come back for more...a lucky critical actually killed that BBEG way before he should have.
And as for kobolds, which i assume is a joke, i would feel sorry for them. My players would prob beat them to death without even finding out if they were evil or not...like the last goblin they meet.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Try using encounters like these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300111-3-5-How-to-deal-with-min-maxed-players#7).

You could try Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/), I've given suggestions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246708-Appropriate-challenges-for-an-E6-party#3) about how to run (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272735-Core-3-Tucker-s-Kobolds-Tactics-Sought#11) those a few times (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?288440-3-5-Challenging-a-Party-of-Six#12).

Be sure to include a pit trap with an advanced (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) Gelatinous Cube (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) at the bottom. Anyone who falls in is automatically engulfed by the cube as though they bumped into it. Ideally it will be a sloped or angled floor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) and one or more weak opponents such as kobolds will be retreating down it to call reinforcements, so the PCs will be likely to chase them and not be checking for traps. The kobolds are too light to trigger the trap and can run right over it. Once they've run by a few kobolds dump oil on the floor from holes in the ceiling, so it will be considerably difficult for the intruders to stop once the pit trap has been triggered.

[kellbyb]

Use more Kobolds :smallwink:

Oh yes, this. Tucker's abominations are the bane of combat optimized parties.

[nedz]

And as for kobolds, which i assume is a joke, i would feel sorry for them. My players would prob beat them to death without even finding out if they were evil or not...like the last goblin they meet.

Not a joke, it's just that you don't know how to run Kobolds. If you run them as just small goblins then you are missing the point.

A mix of Traps, Sorcerers and Dragons — now your player's may regard Kobolds as a joke, but that would be their mistake.

[Deaxsa]

Use more Kobolds :smallwink:

While i think it's a better decision to NOT have it, occasionally, very occasionally, i wish these boards had a +1 function.

[j_spencer93]

Well one person is wrong, Dragonblooded creatures are my favorite and I love to run them. I understand how to run the devious little trapsters and their overly powerful bosses. On a side note, now that I look at my notes of past games, they did provide fun. Players killed them without care until they stumbled into their boss. Unfortunately a player was a cheesed kobold sorcerer himself...
Side note, i have done the pit fall trap thing before, but they made it over it. So i made a room filled with one, which their party somehow didnt fall for. They stopped...and stuck their sword into the room. Then their least willing player was shoved into it. Ended that. But that was in a campaign with an OP wizard.
I am looking over the other ideas at the moment.

[jedipotter]

My players really only enjoy a battle when their are slugging it out and barely leaving with their lives. If they walk over their foes then they immediately lose interest and the game becomes boring for everyone.

I have a lot of players like this, and it is why a run a fast paced lethal game. Some players like the more direct lethal game and not other ways to play like the casual ''let just do something other then nothing'' for a couple hours.

Now first off, you should keep most of the game information from the players during the game. Avoid saying things like ''it has an AC of 20''. When you reduce the monsters to numbers, then they players are just roll playing and ''doing the math'' to win. Example: If the player rolls a 10, adds 9 to get 19, then they know they only missed by one and they will try again, and made add another plus. But if they don't know....they can't do that.

Second, change all the monsters. Almost every monster and NPC should be unique. Change the feats, spell like abilities, and magic items for each one. Add in templates, class levels and items.

Third, avoid letting the characters rest too much.




Anyone have any really good ideas they have used in the past that made their players excited while almost killing them in the process? Like interesting traps that need a unique way to overcome or strange but cool NPC ideas?

Traps? Well, you might not want to go there...unless your sure your group likes ''fighting traps just like monsters''. Not all players like traps, they are often seen as ''just getting in the way of killing and getting XP''.

NPC animal armies work. Give each goblin two war dogs, a wolf and a giant fly. Or whatever monster might fit the encounter level. But the real trick is: you can slip lots of low, low CR monsters in and not effect the level of the encounter much....but if you pick the right monsters they can still have a huge impact. Things that can trip or grapple can have great effect. As can poisons. But even ''just 3 damage'' can add up quickly.

Having NPCs that work together is great. At the most basic they can aid another or flank. A classic is the hobgoblin tank and the goblin sneak. And with spells you get so much more....

Nova NPCs. They work great. Build a NPC to do a ton of damage or a ton of effect...at just one thing. They are not a ''normal'' character by any means, as they can't function alone. But if they are part of a group or tribe, they will be fine.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sometimes a party is best countered with another party working for opposite ends.

My first suggestion is to give the PCs access to a magic item/person that can teleport/planeshift them at very low cost. The process of using this service, unbeknownst to the PCs is that it makes an evil simulacrum of them (with gear analogs), which then goes to collect some reward they have waiting somewhere for them. The PCs hunt down the nega-PCs, and let them duke it out.

Otherwise

Nondetection gear should be put on this exalted team of badholes. If the PCs have a time limited mission, (3 days before something they care about is dead) this crew could put a serious hurting on them and disappear, leaving the PCs basically naked, with few resources to compete against more mundane enemies.

Awakened Rust monster with monk and barbarian levels and a periapt of dimension door. Flurry of blows decimating nearly all gear. Tumbling would be scary to witness.

+
12th-14th level this thing:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367850-Birdman-Stunna-or-How-I-Learned-to-Stop-Worrying-and-Punch-Evil-in-the-Face Add a dancing whip or two for nearly constant trips.

+

12th level this thing:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Machine_Gun_Assassin_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_B uild%29 + potions of flight

+

Spell weaver with wands of true strike, metamagicked magic missile, augmented summon summon monster 3 (dire weasels), mirror image, web, invisibility.

+

Doppleganger with (archivist?) class levels and a +5 helmet of opposite alignment.

Make these guys a TEAM, working together to achieve goals for some patron. They aren't goblins, so they have tactics to spare. They are smart. Throw some divination on the doppleganger or spell weaver. Separate the PCs, harrass them at night so few spells get re-memorized. If the wizard doesn't have a hoard gullet, set his spellbook on magical fire mid-battle.

Have them have an invisible base on the astral plane that they bought with their highly effective mercenary skills and play them smart. They don't have to kill in combat like PCs do, their goals are to accomplish tasks, and a few of them at a time have paid for contingency spells to planeshift them home when they are knocked unconscious.

If your PCs want to bring the fight to this crew, they will have to work for it, their gear would be well worth it, but real tactical roleplaying will have to occur in order to find them and defeat them.


Before anyone gets frustrated with this suggestion: I find the best way to challenge optimizers who actually want a challenge is to use their tactics against themselves. Usually optimizers that I've dealt with don't want the substantive challenge, they want to make the game easy through their intelligent use of RAW; the tell is that they are frustrated by DM homebrews that help anything that isn't their character, or they straight up tell you that you cheated because they memorized the stats for most monsters in the books. For these players, the game is less about collaborative storytelling and more about...something else. It sounds like your group, however, wants to be like john mcclane from diehard 1; with the PCs bruised maimed and battered but a bad AY mofo all the time through. Give them the challenge they crave.

[j_spencer93]

Thank you guys.
Changing up the creatures might work. We been playing for almost 3 years so they are starting to get use to everything in the MMs and some of the other books. Also an opposing party fits with this campaign.
My players hate most traps, but pit traps they seem to be ok with, as well as odd traps. They loved the Tomb of Horror traps for instance.
Taking some notes on your suggestions. Thinking this will help me greatly.

[nedz]

OK, so you've done Kobolds. How about a Kyuss cult? There's a useful template called Favoured Spawn of Kyuss — which you could apply to something interesting — it's in an obscure source though: DM 336. Even if you can't access that you could tweak the standard Kyuss spawn a little, or even just run them straight. My players seemed to find them to be quite a challenge and almost managed to trigger a Kyussocalypse.

[j_spencer93]

Isnt Kyuss the giant worm that walks thing? Maybe not, im really tired so i could be wrong. EIther way no i have not used those and will look into it starting now.