Fiendish-Bard: Help Wanted

[Kon Owens]

So, been using the GitP forums for about half a year now, but have been to lazy to make an account. You guys always seem to have good advice, and right now, I could REALLY use some.

So, the guy who usually GM's in my group of friends has expressed interest in running a 3.5 game for us in the near future. His campaigns are almost always interesting, if a little dark, and he has an obsession with devils bordering on the fetishistic, but hes a great storyteller. So I jumped at the chance.

Now, in ever game I played with this GM, I tend to run through three to five characters, simply due to the high mortality rating of his games. I have tried Fighters, Wizards, Rouges, Druids, Factotums, and even munchkin'd characters.

All have died.

So, I hit upon an idea. As my GM likes to use devils, why don't I use Demons, just to counter his fixation? And, because I'm part fiend, it thematically builds into Warlock, a staple favorite of his. And then I stumbled on something most intriguing: Eldritch Theurge.

My plan thus far: Begin with 5 ranks of Bard, Chaotic Evil. Using the WotC online supplement for Half Fiends (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a), I would get the Succubi as a "parent" for the Cha buff. Discovering the conversion ritual is explained by my Bardic quest for lore and such. Then, I can take Warlock to 4 or 5, picking up the ability to dupe UMD, and then qualify for Eldritch Theurge, which spins together my Bardic Casting and my Warlock Invocations.

Now what I need help for: Is this even feasible? Am I mixing together two classes that just wont work? And if it can work, how can I make it so this character wont die on me two sessions in. I love making new characters, but I now have a file folder an inch thick labeled "The PC's Graveyard" sitting on my desk. Really don't want to add any more paper to that stack...

[Gwendol]

Why not use a tiefling instead? The LA is murder on half-fiends.

[Inevitability]

Even better; lesser tiefling.

Or why not use the Fiendish savage progression (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/fiendishcr.shtml)? One level gives you darkvision, resistances, Smite Good, and the extraplanar subtype. Still not very good, but not as bad as a full +5 LA.


Important questions: What level are you starting and what is the expected optimization level?

[Darrin]

Why not use a tiefling instead? The LA is murder on half-fiends.

Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II) would also work well. Either way, you want to avoid LA on any kind of casting chassis. Not only do you lose caster levels, but your HP will be so miserably low that a housecat can pwn you. How about:

Bard 4/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Theurge +7/Mindbender 1

This gets you 9th level spells, two greater invocations, and 6d6 Eldritch Blasts.

There are a couple other PrCs you'll want to look at, specifically: Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II) and Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror). Fiend-Blooded is usually used to add more spells known to a Sorcerer build, but it's actually easier to get in via Bard (more skill points, no cross-class skills). However, unless you're trying to add some fire/necromancy spells to your spell list, it doesn't offer all that much outside of "fiendish" flavor.

Hellfire Warlock is only three levels long, but each level adds +2d6 hellfire damage to your eldritch blasts. For example:

Bard 4/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 2/Hellfire Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge +7

This gets up to 13d6 Eldritch Blasts and one dark invocation.

The big drawback is every time you use Hellfire Blast, you take 1 Con damage. A 1-level dip into Binder to bind Naberius lets you heal 1 Con damage every round. With the last build, this is hard to fit in without losing something, unless you use one of the Precocious Apprentice/Versatile Spellcaster/Heighten/Sanctum Spell tricks to get 2nd level spells early. Or just cary around a wand of lesser restoration, rod of bodily restoration (MIC), or a few potions of body ward (Complete Champion).

[Kon Owens]

Wow, thanks for the feedback! I looked it over, and I have some responses...


Why not use a tiefling instead? The LA is murder on half-fiends.

True, it is, but I wanted the thematic flavor, plus... I have a guilty pleasure that I really like the Half-Race Templates, even though they are fairly expensive and often impractical. But you're right, Tiefling or any fiendish race would be better.


Even better; lesser tiefling.

Or why not use the Fiendish savage progression (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/fiendishcr.shtml)?

Important questions: What level are you starting and what is the expected optimization level?

The Lesser Tielfing is really good, but my GM tends to like to ban things that are that good. Otherwise, I would have used it first. I'll try to run it by him, but since he almost always uses the regular Tiefling over the Lesser variant when he plays, I doubt he'll let me

I actually hadn't seen the Fiendish Savage progression. Honestly, it appears to be similar to the custom Half Fiend rule I posted above, but at Half the LA, and without the customization of picking the fiend you want to be based on. Not bad, but not what I'm looking for.

As for the Level, he's starting us between Lv's 1 and 3, to be nailed down as more people join the group.
I wanted to aim for a decent supporter (hence bard), but can sling spells if necessary. In most games, I tend to become either the meat shield or the skill monkey, so I figured I'd preemptively prepare myself this time.


Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II) would also work well. Either way, you want to avoid LA on any kind of casting chassis.

There are a couple other PrCs you'll want to look at, specifically: Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II) and Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror).

The big drawback is every time you use Hellfire Blast, you take 1 Con damage. A 1-level dip into Binder to bind Naberius lets you heal 1 Con damage every round.

I wasn't able to find the Hellbred online, and I don't have access to the Fiendish Codex's, but my GM owns them both, so I'll ask him about it. Those are the ones who come back from Hell to write the sins they commited in their life, right?

I didn't really get the right vibe from Fiend-blooded, and it adds little to the build I'm looking at, like you stated. I really do like the Hellfire warlock, though. the only problem is changing the source of Hellfire, since I wanted to make a Demonic character rather than a Devil character, but that's nitpicking.

Binders... ugh. I have bad experiences with them, as I splashed a few levels onto my fighter to give him some versitality, but it ended up getting him murdered as the next enemy we fought negated supernatural abilities, and since I had spent the last two levels getting binder abilities, I was screwed and died. So, yeah. I'll stick with the wands to negate the con damage.

New build with your guys suggestion: Lesser Tiefling (If allowed), Bard 4, Warlock 4, Eldritch Theurge 3, Hellfire Warlock 3, Eldritch Theurge 6 (20 Lv, no LA)

... whew, that was a lot. Is this better than before? And what feats/spells may help out a character like this?

[Greenish]

Those are the ones who come back from Hell to write the sins they commited in their life, right?No, those would be Hellscribes.

[Kon Owens]

... I see what you did there.

Drat, thought I caught all my spelling mistakes. What kind of caster would I be with improper spelling?

Anyway, to RIGHT the wrongs they committed in life. Do I have the right race in mind?

[Greenish]

Pretty much. They look vaguely evil and/or goth and are trying to keep out of hell. They're probably the most PC-friendly fiend-related race short of lesser tieflings, but they may be a bit watered down for what you had in mind.

[Kon Owens]

Alright, cool. My GM hasn't got back to me about the Lesser Tiefling, but he does have the Fiendish Codexs, so I'll ask him about the Hellborn. Thanks again.

[Kon Owens]

Hey, sorry to keep bothering you guys, but a thought has occurred to me.

I wanted to use the Bard as one of the base classes for this build, for the versatility, and if I was relegated to skill monkey again, that I would continue to be useful. But, looking at the current concept, should I drop the Bard and focus on another arcane caster to preserve the Eldritch Theurge build, or is there a way I could make the Bard truly shine, so I wouldn't need the warlock levels and other stuff?

Thanks for the comments so far, I just don't know where to go with this build...

[Gwendol]

Bard is great. Inspire courage can be pumped up even at the level you're at which will help your eldritch blasting. The mind affecting spells and diplomacy supremacy of the bard fits well thematically, and they also have a bunch of ACF's to consider: Bardic knack, Hymn of fortification, Healing hymn, Spellbreaker song.

[Psyren]

Binders... ugh. I have bad experiences with them, as I splashed a few levels onto my fighter to give him some versitality, but it ended up getting him murdered as the next enemy we fought negated supernatural abilities, and since I had spent the last two levels getting binder abilities, I was screwed and died. So, yeah. I'll stick with the wands to negate the con damage.

The only way I know of to negate Su abilities is to block access to magic entirely, which would have screwed a bard or wands too.