cat necromancer

[Skorni]

some time ago i saw this idea for a pc in DeD 3.5, an awakened cat necromancer that goes around on an animated skeleton, so that others think that you are the familiar of a lich and the lich is the skeleton you are on. the thing i wanted to know is how to build a necromancer taken that you are a cat, better a wizard a cleric or what?

[atemu1234]

Well, for one, the cat must be awakened.

Then it can theoretically take levels as a character, in this case probably Dread Necromancer or specialist Necromancer. How it would perform the somatic components, however, is up for debate. I'd rather run a Tibbit, simply to avoid having to get the spell cast on it, then take levels as Necromancer/Dread Necro/Ultimate Magus, then add in maybe something for flavor.

[Segev]

Behold, the nekomancer!

[Psyren]

Behold, the nekomancer!

*groan*

Seconding Tibbit for this, much easier (though you will need Surrogate Spellcasting unless you plan to do all your casting outside of cat form.)

[Vhaidara]

A Tibbit build? Someone deploy the Fel Signal!

Red Fel: Tibbit Overlord in the Playground

[Inevitability]

A cat hengeyokai might also be an option.

[Red Fel]

A Tibbit build? Someone deploy the Fel Signal!

Red Fel: Tibbit Overlord in the Playground

I AM INVOKED - ooh, kitty!

Actually, I was kind of eyeing this thread, and wondering if I should mention that a Tressym can speak, despite being in kitty form. Unfortunately, Tressym don't have a printed LA as PCs, so you're probably better off with Tibbit.

Absolutely echoing Surrogate Spellcaster. Pearl of Speech will let you communicate even while in kitty form, unless you'd rather go for the Telepath Psion 5 ACF (which probably won't work on your mindless undead minions anyway).

To make the act convincing, however, you need an intelligent undead minion. Now, everyone loves unintelligent undead, but they're not exactly masters of disguise. What you need is someone who can pull off the "Why yes, I am an ancient and terrible force animated by my own willpower, and this is my kitty," gambit. So let's consider what you can do with nekomancy.

I don't generally play Necromancers, so I'm going to be referring to this handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1049211) for advice. Now, you want something corporeal, powerful, and impressive. Create Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) is the answer, and the question is this: Are you my mummy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm)?

Yes, Create Undead is a high-level spell, but it fits so well it's crazy. The Mummy is an excellent undead minion, which can easily pull off the "ancient and powerful undead" vibe; it also fits thematically with a pet cat, because mummies and cats. (Wrap a bandage around your Tibbit's head for extra "d'aww" flavor.)

Your mummy companion shambles about, groaning and scowling, and periodically petting the kitty with its soft, bandaged fingers. (And eventually perhaps your Mummy could be a Mummy Lord, who knows? Clerics are always useful.)

Now, what class to use? I'd suggest Cleric, and here's why. First, if you ask your DM nicely, he might allow your Tibbit to wear her holy symbol on a collar, allowing it to be presented while in kitty form. You'll need that, because being able to Rebuke is very important when creating unholy abominations and mockeries of life. Second, Desecrate is your friend when it comes to Necromancy, and Wizards and Sorcerers don't get it. (Although they can potentially get similar spells.) Third, with Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) and Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) you can completely offset your Str penalty from being in kitty form. Recognize what that means - you become a very big kitty, who deals damage as though she were a perfectly ordinary human mauling face. It's a great fall-back position.

Also, all cats are unholy anyway, so why not make it official?

[Skorni]

considering that the party is starting at low-level i'm not sure I can get a mummy to start off with and I don't think i could control one. a skeleton is something I can afford, I thought it like my master being undead is no longer capable to speak although having his will so I speak for him

[Vhaidara]

Well, for the minion, necropolitan is also an option. It's effectively +1 LA, but it is pre bought off

[Urpriest]

At low levels pretty much the only way to get an undead minion is via Necromancer (an ACF from Unearthed Arcana gives one) or from Death Master. At 5th level you can use Animate Dead as a Cleric, and at 6th you can take Undead Leadership (and maybe get an intelligent minion). So it depends on how low level the campaign starts.

[Red Fel]

considering that the party is starting at low-level i'm not sure I can get a mummy to start off with and I don't think i could control one. a skeleton is something I can afford, I thought it like my master being undead is no longer capable to speak although having his will so I speak for him

The Undead Leadership feat is a great choice when you hit level 6. A Necropolitan cohort is a very solid option, and a bit more durable than your usual animated minion.

Even better, playing a Tibbit capable of performing the Rite of Crucimigration is a great source of flavor. Not only is it utterly terrifying, it gives you a great source of followers. ("Sure, I'll grant you the immortality of the undying... And then you can serve me.")

[Vhaidara]

Red, I feel that we should get an all Tibbit campaign going using various builds you've gotten designed here.

[Red Fel]

Red, I feel that we should get an all Tibbit campaign going using various builds you've gotten designed here.

Get out of my head, Charles! :smallbiggrin:

[Dalebert]

How it would perform the somatic components, however, is up for debate.

Does 3.5 have anything like Anthropomorphic Animal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal) (and permanency, of course)? I imagine you could fake being a typical quadruped cat fairly well most of the time but then get up on your hind legs and cast spells. Just kind of ball your little hands up to look like paws. Puss in Boots does it, right?

[Vhaidara]

Does 3.5 have anything like Anthropomorphic Animal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal) (and permanency, of course)? I imagine you could fake being a typical quadruped cat fairly well most of the time but then get up on your hind legs and cast spells. Just kind of ball your little hands up to look like paws. Puss in Boots does it, right?

Yes, it's called Anthropomorphic Animal, a template-race-thing from Savage Species

[Inevitability]

Does 3.5 have anything like Anthropomorphic Animal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal) (and permanency, of course)? I imagine you could fake being a typical quadruped cat fairly well most of the time but then get up on your hind legs and cast spells. Just kind of ball your little hands up to look like paws. Puss in Boots does it, right?

Well, there's the anthropomorphic template...

[Urpriest]

Does 3.5 have anything like Anthropomorphic Animal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal) (and permanency, of course)? I imagine you could fake being a typical quadruped cat fairly well most of the time but then get up on your hind legs and cast spells. Just kind of ball your little hands up to look like paws. Puss in Boots does it, right?

As others have pointed out, there's not a spell for it in 3.5, it's just how you're born.

[Skorni]

I'm still not sure about what class choose, cleric or dread necromancer. the goal for my pc is to achieve immortality, which one is better?

(I discover now that I'm the only evil in the party, the others play an half-orc barbarian CG, halfling rogue CG, half-elf druid CN, gnome sorcerer CG)

[Segev]

If you are playing straight up to level 20, Dread Necromancer gives you lichdom for "free." You'd need to make yourself into a mummy lord or something as a cleric.

[Dalebert]

I'm still not sure about what class choose, cleric or dread necromancer. the goal for my pc is to achieve immortality, which one is better?

Clerics are arguably the best class in the game and since they can presumably become lichs, and maybe get there faster than a DN, I say cleric. I seem to recall DNs not even having access to all the spells to be a really good necro while clerics get them all. There were a couple they don't get.


(I discover now that I'm the only evil in the party, the others play an half-orc barbarian CG, halfling rogue CG, half-elf druid CN, gnome sorcerer CG)

I found a way around this. I'm actually playing a good gravewalker (a necromancer witch in Pathfinder). It's all about your motives and how convincing you manage to be.

EDIT: I just recalled that I'm in an alignment-less game. I guess many of those spells have the evil descriptor. I suppose you could play a neutral character and try to convince the party that your motives aren't evil and your evil magic is just a tool.

[Red Fel]

I'm still not sure about what class choose, cleric or dread necromancer. the goal for my pc is to achieve immortality, which one is better?

(I discover now that I'm the only evil in the party, the others play an half-orc barbarian CG, halfling rogue CG, half-elf druid CN, gnome sorcerer CG)

Well, in terms of immortality, the Dread Necromancer gets it at capstone - you become a lich, done. Further, DN has, natively, a number of useful undead-oriented abilities.

That said, DN uses arcane casting, and some of the spells you want - such as Desecrate - require a Cleric's touch. Further, as others mention, not every campaign reaches level 20. Finally, DN's narrower selection of spells chafes a bit, from an optimization perspective.

[Malroth]

Fell Animate becomes a valid method of obtaining undead followers by lv 3 if playing a metamagic reduction wizard or lv 1 if you're playing a DMM cleric

[ace rooster]

There are far easier ways to get undead minions than create undead. Fell drain from liber mortis adds a negative level to your damaging spells, so you can use that to get a wight. With either a metamagic rod or a metamagic reducer this can be done at level 1. It drain your levels, so some precautions would have to be taken, but at 4HD they are very nice. Summon undead 3 can be used to give somebody ghoul fever, which turns them into a ghoul. If you can find somebody with 4 levels then it can get you a ghast, but you would probably need to throw a curse on them to make the disease kill them. The wight is easier to get but a ghast is much safer to use at low levels.

[Red Fel]

There are far easier ways to get undead minions than create undead. Fell drain from liber mortis adds a negative level to your damaging spells, so you can use that to get a wight. With either a metamagic rod or a metamagic reducer this can be done at level 1. It drain your levels, so some precautions would have to be taken, but at 4HD they are very nice. Summon undead 3 can be used to give somebody ghoul fever, which turns them into a ghoul. If you can find somebody with 4 levels then it can get you a ghast, but you would probably need to throw a curse on them to make the disease kill them. The wight is easier to get but a ghast is much safer to use at low levels.

The thing to remember is that undead you create - or undead which are created by undead you create (e.g. Wights) don't necessarily automatically obey you. If you're a Cleric, you can use Rebuke Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) to command them. If you're a Wizard or Sorcerer, you can cast Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), which gives you a very solid duration but not as much flexibility. DN gets Command Undead as well, so that's something.

But at the end of the day, you're looking for three things: Ability to create undead Ability to control undead Personal powerCleric gives you more flexibility and options on almost every front. DN gives you more flavor, but Cleric does things more easily.

[atemu1234]

The thing to remember is that undead you create - or undead which are created by undead you create (e.g. Wights) don't necessarily automatically obey you. If you're a Cleric, you can use Rebuke Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) to command them. If you're a Wizard or Sorcerer, you can cast Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), which gives you a very solid duration but not as much flexibility. DN gets Command Undead as well, so that's something.

But at the end of the day, you're looking for three things: Ability to create undead Ability to control undead Personal powerCleric gives you more flexibility and options on almost every front. DN gives you more flavor, but Cleric does things more easily.

Or Death Master from Dragon Compendium.

[Skorni]

ok, tibbit cleric of nerull NE. a question though, can he talk while in cat form?

[Red Fel]

ok, tibbit cleric of nerull NE. a question though, can he talk while in cat form?

No. But use a Pearl of Speech, and you're set.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

Wouldn't it make much, much more sense if the cat was an enchanter and just have a thrall to carry it around?
I mean if you're gonna be masquerading as a humanoid, at least don't pick something that will get you run out of most towns with torches and pitchforks and holy smites.

[Red Fel]

Wouldn't it make much, much more sense if the cat was an enchanter and just have a thrall to carry it around?
I mean if you're gonna be masquerading as a humanoid, at least don't pick something that will get you run out of most towns with torches and pitchforks and holy smites.

This is the precise reason that I usually make a Tibbit Telepath/ Thrallherd. But the OP specified necromancer. And indeed, if you can make your undead minions look relatively intelligent, you can make the chiefest among them out to be the "bad guy." Even if the heroes destroy or run off all of your undead flunkies, who's going to hurt the adorable kitty-cat the mean old lich was carting around in an effort to maintain a hold on his long-gone humanity?

[Skorni]

also if i can disguise them with clothes and other things ok it is really thin but from that there is a long way to say that it is indeed a skeleton and therefore must be destroyed. also as said no one harms the kitty ;)

[Ettina]

ok, tibbit cleric of nerull NE. a question though, can he talk while in cat form?

Tibbits in cat form speak Feline, and since my tibbit necromancer's undead companion understands any language spoken by his master, he can understand commands given in Feline. But I don't know if a tibbit cleric's undead would understand Feline.