What would a Thief Guild duel look like?

[varden]

In the title i tried to sum my question up, but let me get in a little more detail:

I'm thinking of running a campaign centered around a thief guild all the PC will be part of. That doesn't mean they will be all Rogues, I'm sure my players will be very imaginative in creating different types of criminals and thugs specialized in different illegal activities (we use Pathfinder, so many Archetypes for sure) so there will be a varied party.

It won't be neither be an all evil organization going around killing everybody nor a merry little band of lovable ruffians, I'd like to set it somewhere in the middle leaning towards the latter. Set in a large port city the guild will be part everyday life, with thievery and cons as a regular hazard for well-to-do citizens but not the poor. In destitute neighborhoods the Rogues will be even celebrated as somewhat of local heroes, not because of any kind of Robin-Hoodesque wealth distribution (they will be in it to get rich after all) but because they “stick it to the rich and powerful”.

As I chart out a rough outline for the campaign I'm thinking they will slowly rise trough the ranks (probably using the Pathfinder's Honor system from Ultimate Campaign*) as the city slips in worse and worse state because of the BBEG plans and at some point the King of Thieves bolts in fear for his live. I'd like them to encounter him again and confront his cowardice in some kind of duel that will (if completed) leave one of the PC as new leader of the guild. And there is the problem.... What would that look like?

I'm thinking not some cheese “who can steal the most in the same time”, but a truly climactic confrontation of some kind. It would be nice if the same principle could be scaled down for “normal” confrontations between thieves so I could introduce it earlier in the campaign for a minor dispute and run a jacked up version of it for the guild leader...

Original ideas and parts plugged from books or games are both welcome, I've read only The Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas under Red Skies and that some time ago. I'm planning on expanding my knowledge on thievish Fantasy Books so a good recommendation will be no doubt listened to.

Thanks guys.

* In short it works like this: You establish a set of values for an organization, in this case for example you'll get bonuses for large heists, daring escapes, point loss if you get caught or work with the city guard. Points get added up to form your Honor and can be spent to get favors from the organization or bonuses in social interactions.

[Yuki Akuma]

A 'thief duel' would probably be a contest to see who can steal <insert target item here> first, or who can gain entrance to some place fastest, or maybe an obstacle course specifically set up by a neutral party. Something like that.

[varden]

Yes, that would be the first thing that comes to mind, but it required a third party (even if it is a long dead civilization that left a dungeon behind) and can be performed only in a given location. I'm looking for something more portable :D It may sound stupid but i was thiking of the Sun Chamber in Community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ_AQUQM0w0

[mikeejimbo]

Something like pulling off the biggest heist would be appropriate, I think, not cheesy. Hmm, what if you involved running from the law somehow too?

[comicshorse]

Both duelists are dropped into a underground labyrinth at opposite ends, to get out they will have to cross paths at some point. The labyrinth should be very dark (for sneaking), full of traps ( for crippling but NOT killing the duelists), and have lots of cover ( for hiding) and rough walls and ceilings ( for climbing up or along).
The duelists are given a single knife each.
The one who comes out alive, wins

[varden]

Sorry if I'm not very clear in my explanations, I'm still piecing everything together as I add more and more ideas. Like I said my idea would be that the "king of thieves" has run from the city and they find him in hiding somewhere, so I think it would be better if they could do it then and there instead of having to travel to the nearest city and more satisfying to the players if they fought against him instead of parallel to him...

[mikeejimbo]

Comichorse's suggestion is pretty cool though, and involves fighting against him.

[varden]

It it, I hadn't read it before posting. I suitable "dark dungeon" could be found in case to case fashion so maybe it would be an abandoned (and supposedly haunted) house one time, a stranded ship with partially rotten planks the other, a different arena every time.

I wouldn't go as far as to make them kill each other though, they could wear a prized possession on a leather string around their neck and whoever steals the others "scalp" and gets out wins and keeps it, maybe they could do drawing of first blood instead for more serious feuds... the first to get out with a bloody knife wins.

Obviously for this duel in particular it would be the King of Thieves that pushes the fight to extremes forcing it to have a lethal outcome.

[Anonymouswizard]

Both duelists are dropped into a underground labyrinth at opposite ends, to get out they will have to cross paths at some point. The labyrinth should be very dark (for sneaking), full of traps ( for crippling but NOT killing the duelists), and have lots of cover ( for hiding) and rough walls and ceilings ( for climbing up or along).
The duelists are given a single knife each.
The one who comes out alive, wins

I had an idea kinda like this, but with less deaths (waste of good thieves).

First somebody sets up a room, which contains a shiny bauble and at least one trap (to complicate actually getting the bauble). This room has two entrances.

Connected to each entrance is a labyrinth/maze/corridor, possibly with traps or the like. Each participant starts off outside one of the mazes.

The goal is to traverse your maze, nab the shiny bauble, and make it to the other guy's start point with the shiny bauble.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I'm kind of thinking of one of the episodes of Hustle, where the leader of the 5-person grifting gang and the wannabe leader are dropped in the middle of Trafalgar Square, totally naked, and they have a certain amount of time (about 10 hours IIRC) to use all their skills to make as much wealth as possible (for instance, they include the value of the clothes they're wearing at the end in the tally), plus they can each use one of the other members of the team to help them.

The winner is the team's leader from then on.


The leader wins because the wannabe leader got cocky and dropped a pound coin into his pocket, which was just enough to give him the victory.

And it's then revealed that the last member of the gang, and the one who set them the challenge as a supposed way of sorting the gang's leadership, had actually simply bet the other two that he could have both of the "contestants" running stark naked across Trafalgar Square by lunchtime, because they were between cons and were bored.



But something like that, where one PC goes up against an NPC and both can use their group to help out (which of course includes trying to stop each other) might work - although you'd have to plan the NPCs actions quite carefully, with a few contingency plans in place, rather than just reacting to what the players are doing and adjusting the NPC's actions.

An alternative might be a simple one, where certain objects are given to each contender, and their opponent has to obtain them and bring them to a neutral location. It doesn't matter who actually obtains it, so long as the contender brings the object themselves, while the only location out of bounds is the neutral site - they can bury it, stick it on a boat to a distant continent, have it concealed on another plane or whatever.

[BRC]

To be a thief is to demonstrate ingenuity and opportunity.

A duel between Theives can take many forms, but the end goal is always the same: Bring your opponent to ruin. The loser is whoever is thrown into jail, forced to leave town, or forced to concede.
You also lose if you break the rules.

The rules are as follows.

1: The Rules apply only to knowing participants (That is, people who are aware that the duel is happening). Manipulating dupes into doing what you want is fair game.
2: No duelist may inflict direct harm on another. This includes physical attacks, magic (including charms, curses, or enchantments), poisoning, ect. Non-lethal poisons are acceptable, but can't win you the Duel in of themselves (For example, you could knock your opponent out, but you can't put them on a cart leaving town and claim victory.) That said, it is perfectly acceptable, perhaps even encouraged, to get some dupes angry at your opponent, or to hire thugs to beat them up.
3: The Duelists are not allowed to reveal the truth about each other. Turning in your opponent for a crime they committed before the duel started is grounds for forfeiture. FRAMING them for a crime is not only fair game, but encouraged, as is demonstrating their guilt for any crimes committed AFTER The start of the duel (it's their fault for leaving evidence).
4: The duel does not end until a full day after the loser has been brought to ruin. If you get your opponent arrested, but are then arrested yourself, you don't win.
5: The Duelists must agree on what resources are available to each ( wealth, magic items, blackmail materials, ect) before the duel begins. If they want to start with anything else, they must steal or earn it. If you fail to negotiated yourself an advantage during this phase, that's your fault.
6: Anybody who is aware of the Duel can only help if they are being paid for it, using resources either negotiated at the beginning, or stolen after the duel begins.
And finally, the golden rule:
7: Cheating is perfectly acceptable provided you don't get caught. If you can't catch your opponent cheating, or cheat even better than them, that's a sign that you are the inferior rogue.

If these rules seem exploitable and unfair, that's the idea. A proper scoundrel can make things unfair in their favor.

[DontEatRawHagis]

In the RA Salavator novel that I am listening to on audible(free for a week or two I think) had a good one.

The Thieves had a turn table with 4 glasses, one filled with an undetectable poison. The opponents are supposed to spin the table then each take turns to slow down the table until it stops. Then they both take the drink in front of them. If neither dies it is a stalemate. If the challenge wins he gets the position of the one he beat.

In this case:

The challenger had to cheat because the opponent was actively taking the antivenom every day in preparation. In the end the opponent had to eat because the antivenom causes hunger. He took a cure all poison just in case his food was poisoned. Sadly he didn't take I to account that his challenger would put crushed glass in his cake.

[tyckspoon]

Do you want a duel that determines who is the best thief, or a duel that determines who is the best leader of thieves? Very different properties, and perhaps that's why the guild and the city came into such poor conditions.. the current leader can steal the curl out of a sheep's wool, but when things started turning bad he didn't really know how to run his organization. Perhaps part of the PC's tasks include convincing the remaining power structure of the guild that however they were doing it before is clearly testing for the wrong attributes, and they need a new test. And what do you know, the PCs just happen to have one in mind!

I like something like what BRC suggested - it's open ended and can be done pretty much anywhere (as long as the so-called 'King of Thieves' didn't flee into hermitage or something), and tests what you want from your leader: his ability to maximize the resources at hand, and to form and execute a plan on short notice and uncertain conditions.

[Jay R]

Thieves Guilds try to stay undercover. If I'm the guildmaster, a duel between two thieves would not look like anything at all, until it ends when the body of one of them is found in an out-of-the-way location.

If either party to the duel is caught in the act of conducting it, he is instantly disqualified for clumsiness.

[Elvenoutrider]

Each member in the guild is given a secret sheet of paper written in magic ink that only becomes visible of exposed to a certain substance. The goal is to obtain all the sheets by any means necessary

[Mewtarthio]

Thieves' Duels are actually almost exactly like regular duels: The combatants choose a time and a place, and they must both show up then and fight to the death. The primary difference is that Thieves' Duels are almost invariably won by default--After all, the stress of an upcoming duel can leave one so prone to tragic accidents...

[veti]

"Duel", or contest? Duel implies that they fight each other, "contest" gives a bit more leeway and could be anything from an organised competition, to a simple one-on-one (one party hides, and if the other can successfully find him they win), to a popular vote or acclamation.

If the "king thief" runs away and hides, I'd think most thieves in the city could be persuaded to say that he'd abdicated his position by that act alone. After all, a king has duties, and if he refuses to fulfil those, he's not doing his job and can be fired just for that.

A leader is only as strong as the motivation she can put into her followers. If your new candidate is charismatic, well liked and respected, has the trust of her fellow thieves, then she should easily be able to leverage that into "being acclaimed the new leader" without any formal contest. Running a guild is a political job, not a technical one. It wouldn't matter if she was paralysed from the neck down and had never picked a lock in her life, so long as the other thieves respect her enough to follow her rulings when it matters.

[daremetoidareyo]

Maybe rival mercenary firms instead of thieves guilds? Imagine if haliburton/blackwater provided navy seals instead of soldiers.

So the PCs in one session have to protect a caravan against other NPC led teams. In a different session, maybe the tables are flipped and the PCs have to raid a caravan.

Maybe a local alchemist is so close to cracking the lead into gold thing and hires two teams to attempt to infiltrate his work tower.

A bard calls the head of two guilds together to tell them about how the mayor's wife offered him xxxx gold to kill the rival candidate. He will pay 90% of that sum to the first firm to kill the man.

A race to kidknap the new empress's newborn son to compel her to do something... Like release an important or valuable prisoner (someone who knows a password or defense map of a nonpaying clients stronghold), exclusive harem procurement rights, an ancient treasure map of the old king (or pay ransom).

Demons hire teams to sneak anti-devil spells into wizard spellbooks. Casts a specialized clairvoyance on the teams, and will pay the winning team (by # of spell books) a+5 dancing silvered githyanki greatsword that he won in battle in addition to the going price of a 50gp gem per spell book.

Your firm needs to stop other firms scouts from demolishing a vital bridge used by empire soldiers.

A wager between the guildleaders: treasure hunt! A unicorn hide, griffon semen, The Prince's signature, a succubus tear, a painting worth 250gp or more from a house in the merchant district, a wizard spell that bizmark the magician doesn't already have, the hand of a town guard, and a bottle of wine from the cellar of gorgeous john, the elven priest of forbidden plants.

[Gensuru]

What do you mean by "truly climactic confrontation"? A high stakes poker game might qualify as much as a lethal version of a Guild-built obstacle course.


The Guild seems to be built more for fun rather than grim realism anyways. So why not have Duels between thieves take the form of contests. Lock-picking contest, obstacle course, pick pocketing, disguise, etc. The Guild can easily build a series of rooms for exactly this sort of purpose. The wannabe Kings have to face all challanges and at the highest level. Regular members can pick the rooms best suited for their own speciality. If the rooms are non-lethal, not only do you have a way to settle disputes on a merit base, you also happen to train 2 members of the guild with each duel.


Another way might be for the "Kings" to have to win a vote. Convince all the major thieves in the Guild that they are the best possible choice. With a "King of Thieves" who seems to be a relativley known figure among the Guild (if nowhere else) it's already tricky to keep his identity out of the hands of the City Watch. Any informant, infiltrator or captured thief might reveal the King's identity. Likewise, if the standart duel is supposed to be nonlethal and only this particular King is willing to make it lethal, what's to keep the loser from, quietly, turning the winner in to the Watch? Except thieves' honour, of course? You did say something about being closer to the "lovable rogue" type.



The problem I see is that you want to have a wide variety of Guild members. Con artists, spies, smugglers, burglars, pickpockets, forgers, illegal gambling, protection rackets...the list goes on. The problem with this is that it makes it very hard to find a common ground for all of them. A contest of "steal a specific, highly protected item faster than your rival" gives a huge advantage to a burglar. A contest of "become the most popular member of the guild" gives a significant advantage to a con artist. Likewise, you'd have to convince the violent protection racket types that a non-violent spy or burglar is even able to lead them properly and thus worth following, regardless of some "King of Thieves" title and Guild tradition.



I suppose another possibility is a bit like the Mass Effect Shadow Broker thing. Take down the "King" and you get to keep his stuff. If the King has some sort of special magical item (or whatever) anyone who wants to replace him has to get that item first. Hence why your coward King would be able to keep his title despite leaving the city. The King is responsible for keeping the item safe by any means he sees fit. Anyone who wants to replace him has to get the item by any means necessary (though preferably without getting him killed or captured by the Watch). Doesn't really help for setting up a version that regular members can use but it's a start, I guess.



Another possibility is quite simply "gain the Guild the most amount of money/profit". Every month (or whatever time you prefer) the Guild checks who donated the Guild the most amount of money to decide each member's individual standing in the guild. You want to keep more money to yourself? Fine, but then your rank (and thus support) decreases. You want to have a duel with another member? Fine, whoever can donate more money is the winner. Items or specific pieces of information are judged by the Guild for their monetary value. That way all members have a way to compete and the Guild always gets a cut of the action. Simple, but effective. Add a certain code of rules for all members and you're good to go. This seems, to me, the closest you'll get to "a bunch of lovable rogues who're in it for the money".

[Townopolis]

How's this for a duel that doesn't require a pre-set arena:

The duel requires two items and a judge. Each thief receives one item. Whoever brings both to the judge wins. That is all.

You can introduce this kind of duel early on and showcase how open-ended it is. If a pair of enforcers duel, they're likely to take their items and then slug it out right there until one isn't in a good-enough condition to stop the other one just rifling through his pockets. A sneak-thief might flee upon receiving their item, then try to sneak up on their opponent when least expected. Of course, tactics would change based on your opponent. If facing a pickpocket, maybe don't keep your item in a pocket. Also, pretty much everything is fair game. If your opponent puts their item in a strongbox, and you aren't much of a lockpicker, it's allowed to get someone else to pick the lock for you.

To make the duel with the "King" more interesting, I would have him set himself up fairly well wherever he is hiding out. He leaves the city and the guild, but he could start anew somewhere else, start a gang in some smaller town, or just thoroughly trap his hideout. However it happens, getting his item is going to require a serious heist. Also, how are you protecting your item from the king? If they're away from home (the city), I would expect them to keep their valuables on their persons, and the king would expect this, too, which would mean he'll be skulking about his hideout, trying to ambush and rob/murder the PCs while they try to deal with his security.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

A simple game of hide and seek. Each man gets a knife. No allies or equipment except for anything you pick up during the duel. The thief still in possession of his jugular by nightfall wins.

[LibraryOgre]

Go out and find the Steven Brust novel "Yendi"; it was part of a gathered edition called "The Book of Jhereg", but you really want to take a look at it.

[VoxRationis]

I don't know. Someone who's already skipped town to avoid his problems seems like the sort of person who isn't going to stick around for a scheduled, well-organized duel. I'd find the more prosaic "Have a swordfight to the death" to be less destructive to my suspension of disbelief.

[eulmanis12]

both thieves have their right arms tied to each others, with about a foot of slack in between. Each has a knife in a sheath on their back. In order to win you must stab your opponent (possibly to death) with the knife that is on your opponent's back. It is a competition both of being able to steal without being stolen from, and of fighting ability.

[tomandtish]

Because of the initial scenario you’ve set (current king fleeing for his life), the challenge probably has to be external to him anyway. After all, as others have said “if he’s willing to flee his duties anyway, can you really trust him to abide by the results of a duel”?

Since you are leaning to the light-hearted side for the most part, rules of the guild might be as follows:

The King (Boss? Leader? Whatever name you decide on) runs the guild, with lieutenants from each of the groups (bashers, pick-pockets, burglars, etc.) reporting to him. King gets to appoint the lieutenants. Of guild dues, half are put into trust for guild expenses, half paid to the King (who then divvies out half of that to his lieutenants). Elections are often political affairs, with people promising money, items, and lieutenant positions in exchange for votes.

The King is voted on every x years (maybe 3). It must be a majority vote. Once voted in, they remain in office for 3 years unless removed by a 2/3rds majority vote. This vote may be called for certain reasons: Guild has failed to show a profit for X months, decline in membership of X %, death of leader, imprisonment of leader, embezzlement, presumed DESERTION OF POST BY LEADER (leader has not been seen in X days), etc.

Challenge to become the new leader is based on why the old leader was voted out. And there’s your challenge for your party: finding the old leader. The one who finds out what happened to the old leader and brings back substantial proof and bring back the missing funds is the new leader.

So have your old leader flee for his life (and take a sizable amount of funds with him). Your party now needs to find him. Meanwhile, anyone else interested in being the King is also looking for him. Some have formed alliances (that may last or may fall apart quickly). Some are going it solo. What will your party decide? Do they all want to be the boss? Have they agreed that one will be the King and the others lieutenants? If there aren’t enough of them to cover all the lieutenant spots, are they making alliances with others?



both thieves have their right arms tied to each others, with about a foot of slack in between. Each has a knife in a sheath on their back. In order to win you must stab your opponent (possibly to death) with the knife that is on your opponent's back. It is a competition both of being able to steal without being stolen from, and of fighting ability.

Hmm.. not sure I'd call that a test of thieving ability. Yes, technically you rob somebody if you hit them on the head and take their stuff, but it doesn't seem to test the thief abilities. More a test of unarmed combat prior to armed combat.

[Glimbur]

If you want something simple and a little hokey you could give each member a token of rank. The bearer of the token has the rank. I think you see where this is going.

It seems kind of impractical but I dunno, could be interesting. And it could also come up before they need to track down the leader. But D&D makes pickpocketing kind of dull, so you'd have to include research about how people protect their tokens and make a sub-system out of it.

[Beleriphon]

Sorry if I'm not very clear in my explanations, I'm still piecing everything together as I add more and more ideas. Like I said my idea would be that the "king of thieves" has run from the city and they find him in hiding somewhere, so I think it would be better if they could do it then and there instead of having to travel to the nearest city and more satisfying to the players if they fought against him instead of parallel to him...

Why not crib from Skyrim's Thieves Guild quest line. The thieves by and large are just that, purveyors of things they don't yet own. They also deal with rivals, and getting back at others (usually by stealing something, or planting evidence), but they aren't murderers for hire. By the end of the quest line you end up the king of thieves because the last one takes off with all of the loot. You have to chase him down and murder-stab him in an ancient crypt. The actual murder-stabbing part is pretty easy, but he's still a damn good thief and manage to sneak his way past or co-opt most of the traps and guardians.

[Kaeso]

It's been mentioned before, but having two thieves compete for obtaining the same item, probably some kind of valuable jewelry from some rich nobleman like a ring. They are allowed to use any means of obtaining it from the moment the competition starts to the moment the competition ends (probably sunrise to sunset or something). They're allowed to just sneak in and steal it, to steal the money needed to buy the ring, to earn the ring et cetera. To make it even more interesting, they can even steal it from eachother. All that matters is who has the ring in his hands by the end of the day.

This could lead to pretty exciting situations such as one of the thieves digging up enough dubious money to buy the ring and heading for the Thieves Guild, only to be assaulted by a bunch of mercenaries hired by the other thief to beat him up and take the ring. And maybe, that first thief hired a wizard to take care of those mercenaries! This simple quest for obtaining a single jewel could very quickly escalate.