Monk: If these were class features or bonus feats.

[TheMADMonk]

Alright time for another monk thread (Monkday be damned!)
So browsing through the web I came across some old 3.5 feats some from Dragon Magazine and some from other books like PH2

Fiery Fist (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/fiery-fist--1124/)
Ki Blast (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/kiblast--1712/)
Fiery Ki Defense (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/fiery-ki-defense--1125/)
Ringing of the Golden Bell (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Ring_the_Golden_Bell)

If these were bonus feats or class feature in the way Stunning Fist was, do you think the Monk would be better off or worse off?

Also Improved Stunning Fist (http://dndtools.eu/feats/epic-level-handbook--41/improved-stunning-fist--1573/) why is this not just awarded as a increase every few levels or so?

[Waddacku]

Better off, of course. More options and more abilities is always an improvement. The improvement is absolutely miniscule, though.

[TheMADMonk]

Things like Improved Stunning Fist and Extra Stunning seem to always be some of the mentioned problems. Lack of a good DC for Stunning Fist and heavy restrictions on how many times per day you can use it.

Granting a ranged attack that deals some decent damage would also solve some of the issues of mobility as if you cannot get to them with that five foot step those ranged attacks seem to at least do something to that mage slinging spells your way.

So why do you say its small overall.

[Telonius]

Giving the Monk goodies is something that everybody who's open to homebrewing should do.

There is a pretty big "but" coming.

So, But. But most of the discussions I've seen about how to improve the Monk tend to break down because it always gets shoe-horned into the discussion of how to balance melee (generally) and spellcasting (generally). There are a few reasons for that. First one is that the Monk is billed as a caster-killer, and many people want to improve him until he's up to that task. That naturally bumps up into the reality that casters are incredibly powerful. So what was a discussion about "How to improve the Monk" turns into a discussion of "How can my Monk kill an optimized Wizard?" Second is that people around here are intimately familiar with how well Wizards can completely screw with any campaign. The minute anyone wants to make the Monk into an actual caster-killer, they know seventeen ways to obliterate that Monk from reality before he takes his first step.

The reality is that - absent Tippy-level shenanigans and heavy use of the Dark Chaos Shuffle - Monk would need more power than you can give it to put up a credible threat to a Wizard. Unless you give the Monk spellcasting, it's just not going to happen.

Giving the Monk more options is a good thing. It is weak compared to other melee classes. Adding a ranged attack will help, but it doesn't fix what are the essential problems of a Monk: features that don't work well together, a melee class without a full base attack bonus, low hitpoints, relatively low damage (even with the unarmed bonus), multiple ability dependence, and more expensive to keep up through magical items.

[TheMADMonk]

I agree, which is why I find it funny it was billed as a caster-killer.

And that is why I dislike how they have put very powerful spells into a game simply because at level 20 most gods cannot keep up with the Wizard unless they themselves are also wizards.

I actually toyed with the idea of just making the Monk have a immunity to spells of specific schools that he chooses as he levels up. Basically under the very anime idea that their will and sense of self is just so high not even arcane magics can alter it.

[Telonius]

Making the Monk more powerful than the Wizard would be one way to do it. Generally I prefer to bring the casters down a tier or two. The problem is that - with all of the options available - that's a lot harder to do than giving out more power to the existing lower-tier classes.

There was a thread around here a very long time ago that was kind of a conceptual exercise. What exactly would a class need, to (theoretically) defeat a paranoid wizard? There was a long list of them. Stuff like: a way to circumvent contingencies, a way to say "no" to spells, a way to deal with summoned minions, a way to go first, a way to survive the Wizard's first volley, a way to deal with any sorts of forms it Shapechanges into, a way to get around various abjurations, a way to get to his private demiplane...

[TheMADMonk]

I think I saw that awhile ago in passing. I keep thinking no god in the D&D or PF universes would allow a Wizard above level 10-15. As soon as they hit that level a god would simply kill them.

Sorry but when you have a character class who can casual slaughter gods you have gone too far.

But my ideas were more akin to every spell against a monk is treated as having Spell Resistance. Which yes sucks as a weak Monk level +10 but its still something. The ability to Stunning Fist at a distance, and move as a swift action or move quickly at all seems to be able to solve most of those problems with the exception of a few.

Stun prevents the wizard from casting period, grappling prevents them from casting or escaping via teleports (Using specific archetypes I know thisis true in PF) and of course a Stun followed by a FoB that deals decent damage would kill a Wizard before they could leave via contingencies unless they are specifically tailored for the monk.

This is why I think Abundant Step should be a level 8 power with at level 12 granting you the ability to move half your movement speed as a swift action. Simply teleport to the baddie, then FoB him, Grapple and snap, etc.

The Demiplane stuff is just too ridiculous

[kestrel404]

I am of the opinion that melee needs to be seriously rebalanced. Adding a few things to monk is fine and all - giving those feats to the Monk as they hit the appropriate BAB modifiers would not, in any way, make the monk OP.

But the issue is not giving the monk more combat power, or even giving him more options in combat.

The issue is giving the monk (and the fighter, and the barbarian, and to an extent the ranger & paladin) options that are useful before and after combat. Generally, the concept of the monk is that of the travelling wise-man who also happens to be a very good martial artist. To fit in with that idea, I would give the monk:
* Detect Magic & Detect Chaos - at-will, starting at 1st level
* Identify - 1/day starting at 3rd level, only useable when seeing a magic item for the first time ("Oh, that is a cloak of elvenkind - it is written of in the scrolls of...")
* Detect thoughts - Wis Mod/day at level 5
Etc.

Yes, this is like giving the monk spells. But honestly, 'spells' are the basic unit of magical ability in D&D, and trying to pretend otherwise is kind of silly - and trying to keep the 'mystic martial artist' from using the 'normal' form of magic is also kind of silly.

[malonkey1]

Making the Monk more powerful than the Wizard would be one way to do it. Generally I prefer to bring the casters down a tier or two. The problem is that - with all of the options available - that's a lot harder to do than giving out more power to the existing lower-tier classes.

There was a thread around here a very long time ago that was kind of a conceptual exercise. What exactly would a class need, to (theoretically) defeat a paranoid wizard? There was a long list of them. Stuff like: a way to circumvent contingencies, a way to say "no" to spells, a way to deal with summoned minions, a way to go first, a way to survive the Wizard's first volley, a way to deal with any sorts of forms it Shapechanges into, a way to get around various abjurations, a way to get to his private demiplane...

One of my favorite ways to limit a spellcaster is to limit the spells he can learn to only those with a specific descriptor or small set of descriptors. Now, instead of the almighty transmuter, you have the ice mage, or the neuromancer, or the fear caster. It's a harsh rule, but I'd say that if you want to drop down a caster's adaptability quickly and harshly, this can be effective. Keep an eye on certain descriptors for being to common or being too rare (Incarnum Spells, I'm looking at you).

[TheMADMonk]

Well I like this idea of granting Monks Mysticism (Su) for the lack of a better term
Specific spell-like abilities that go with being a well versed scholar and skilled warrior.

Any further ideas?
I was thinking
At 1st level the monk gains:
Detect Magic as an At-will power.
Read Magic as an At-will power.
Detect Chaos as an At-will power.
Starting at 3rd Level the monk gains Identify 1/day.
Starting at 5th level the monk gains Detect Thoughts times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier.
Starting at 7th level the monk gains Vanish 3/day
Starting at 9th level the monk gains See Invisible 3/Day as well as Tongues 3/day
Starting at 12th level
Starting at 15th level
Starting at 17th Level
Starting at 19th Level

[Vhaidara]

To make monks better than wizards is easy. They punch the universe into submission (at will Ex Wish).

[TheMADMonk]

Spells or Psionics would really boost the Monk but that feels like such a cheap band-aid.

[malonkey1]

I think a good starting-off point is the Ki Pool abilities granted to the Monk (and Ninja!) in Pathfinder. Basically, you get a limited pool of points each day that you can spend to "cast" a small set of supernatural abilities that broadens as you level up.

[Diovid]

Spells or Psionics would really boost the Monk but that feels like such a cheap band-aid.
I don't know, Monk gestalted with Psychic Warrior would be pretty nice both in terms of flavor and in terms of power.

[TheMADMonk]

Psychic Warrior does fill up a lot of the flavor of the Monk. Soulknife (Soul Fist Archetype) fits it just as well to a degree.

[emeraldstreak]

the most important spell for a monk is greater mighty wallop

[kestrel404]

the most important spell for a monk is greater mighty wallop

Nah, that's just a combat buff. Monks do not need combat buffs.

And while Psychic Warriors are great flavor-wise, the vast majority of their abilities revolve around combat spells (granted, a large number of them also have other uses, which is why PW is higher tier than monk).

As far as the idea that giving monks spells is just a band-aid - yes. Yes it is. But since Melee in general bleeds out and dies once you get past level 5 or so (the real reason E6 is popular, IMO) then a band-aid is better than handing the class some more rocks it can throw.

I also like the idea of the Ki-Point pool, though it's a bit heavily nerfed. And the reason it's effective? What does this sound like? You get X points per day to spend on the spells you've chosen off of the class spell lists. Some spells cost a bit more to cast than other spells, and some spells let you spend extra points for better effects.

Why, that's just the Psionics system, right? Yes, except nearly all the 'spells' you have access to are severely under-rated in comparison to Psion 'spells', and your Ki-pool is really, really tiny in comparison to what the psions get (even adjusting for the higher value of the individual points - which is itself debatable).

So while I do agree that the Ki-Pool idea from pathfinder is a step in the right direction, it's kind of a baby-step and also trips over its own feet at higher levels.

[TheMADMonk]

I never understood what e6 is at all so I dont know what to say to that. But I do like the PF Monk and the Qinggong Monk is nice to build a monk with different abilities now if only those abilities where worthwhile with very few spells and such on the list.

giving Monk a proper Psionic Pool calling it Ki or not would be a big benefit but when you say it does not need combat buffs you are mistaken.

I had a vision of a monk who can actually go after people and fight effectively. Throwing the mystical far punch (the blowing out candle thing) from a distance to nail a foe at range if they cannot get there.

My biggest issues with the monk are for someone with so much movement speed, they need to be able to USE it. PF had an idea but nerfed it. 1 ki point for an additional 20' movement on a turn which is fine and dandy if it applies to a five foot step which still allows Flurry of Blows.

No good range options outside of PF Zen Archer archetype which makes you a lame ranger not a good monk.

No way for Wis to Damage without buying a +3 weapon in total (Guided and Ki focus) to allow it to count as your unarmed strike and allow you to use Ki abilities with it.

Wis to attack rolls should have been a default ability. AC bonus should be worded as granting a bonus equal to the monk's wisdom modifier to allow for stacking with classes/feats/items that give Wis to AC to allow the monk to actually have a good AC.

Spell Resistance should be Level+Wis Modifier+10 at level 8 and then become Level+Wis+15 at level 12 and to treat all spells as having spell resistance.

Give Monk UMD and Spellcraft, Give the monk all class skills as they are suppose to be these guys studying in a monastery their whole lives they would be versed in a great deal of things. A Wizard likely would not have knowledge of engineering or geography or something like that but a Monk likely would.

[Vogonjeltz]

Alright time for another monk thread (Monkday be damned!)
So browsing through the web I came across some old 3.5 feats some from Dragon Magazine and some from other books like PH2

Fiery Fist
Ki Blast
Fiery Ki Defense
Ringing of the Golden Bell

If these were bonus feats or class feature in the way Stunning Fist was, do you think the Monk would be better off or worse off?

Also Improved Stunning Fist why is this not just awarded as a increase every few levels or so?

Fiery Fist, Ki Blast, and Fiery Ki Defense are Monk bonus feats.

Ring the Golden Bell would be better as an ACF or if it had just been given as a straight freebie variant instead of listed as a feat.


Lack of a good DC for Stunning Fist and heavy restrictions on how many times per day you can use it.

Stunning Fist DC formula is 10+1/2 character level+wis mod.
9th level Spell DC formula is 10+9+casting stat mod. Or 19+mod.

So the DC scales to equal the highest level spells, and then (eventually) exceeds them. I see no problem here.

[1pwny]

Stunning Fist DC formula is 10+1/2 character level+wis mod.
9th level Spell DC formula is 10+9+casting stat mod. Or 19+mod.

So the DC scales to equal the highest level spells, and then (eventually) exceeds them. I see no problem here.

The problem is that Monks are too MAD to sit down and focus on their Wis and Stunning Fist DC. Wizards only need to spend money on boosters for 1 stat. And with feats and Class Abilities, a Wizard is probably getting DCs over 30 by level 20. But the Monk has to focus on Str and Con because he's a melee with a puny hit die, and now you're stacking Wis on top of that.

[Vhaidara]

The problem is that Monks are too MAD to sit down and focus on their Wis and Stunning Fist DC. Wizards only need to spend money on boosters for 1 stat. And with feats and Class Abilities, a Wizard is probably getting DCs over 30 by level 20. But the Monk has to focus on Str and Con because he's a melee with a puny hit die, and now you're stacking Wis on top of that.

You forgot Dex since they can't wear armor. Can't have every nasty creature Power Attacking for full damage with no penalty to accuracy, can we?

[Waddacku]

Things like Improved Stunning Fist and Extra Stunning seem to always be some of the mentioned problems. Lack of a good DC for Stunning Fist and heavy restrictions on how many times per day you can use it.

Granting a ranged attack that deals some decent damage would also solve some of the issues of mobility as if you cannot get to them with that five foot step those ranged attacks seem to at least do something to that mage slinging spells your way.

So why do you say its small overall.

The Fiery feats are low return for resources spent. Ki Blast eats up a lot of actions for tiny damage (and is harshly limited per day without further investment). Ring the Golden Bell only applies to one attack per use, so you get like two full attacks out of it per day, at that, at a short range. Improved Stunning Fist is a better chance of being able to beat someone you were already able to beat on more. It has some niche uses like getting the drop on a caster and keeping them stunned, but that's also the most noticeable increase in overall power from this.

[Vogonjeltz]

The problem is that Monks are too MAD to sit down and focus on their Wis and Stunning Fist DC. Wizards only need to spend money on boosters for 1 stat. And with feats and Class Abilities, a Wizard is probably getting DCs over 30 by level 20. But the Monk has to focus on Str and Con because he's a melee with a puny hit die, and now you're stacking Wis on top of that.

Wizards don't need Con and Dex?
How is that meaningfully distinct from a Monk needing Con and Str? (Or Dex if using weapon finesse)

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Wizards don't need Con and Dex?
How is that meaningfully distinct from a Monk needing Con and Str? (Or Dex if using weapon finesse)

I think that they mean with high Int they can make up for lower dex and con where a monk needs high wis good str/dex and fair con to be decent

[Vogonjeltz]

I think that they mean with high Int they can make up for lower dex and con where a monk needs high wis good str/dex and fair con to be decent

High int doesn't grant reflex save or AC or initiative, it doesn't grant hp or fort saves, or concentration check increases.

Wizards are just as dependent on the secondary and tertiary stats as everyone else.

[Vogonjeltz]

I think that they mean with high Int they can make up for lower dex and con where a monk needs high wis good str/dex and fair con to be decent

High int doesn't grant reflex save or AC or initiative, it doesn't grant hp or fort saves, or concentration check increases.

Wizards are just as dependent on the secondary and tertiary stats as everyone else.

And the claim was that stunning fist DCs were low, which is a false claim.

[TheMADMonk]

Ok I have heard the complaint that the DC for Stunning Fist is not viable at higher levels.