PDA

View Full Version : DM Help Player wants to play a Paladin, but...



Garimeth
2014-09-10, 10:14 AM
So the back ground is one of my players wants to switch his class (I recently gave the entire party a chance to redo their characters or make a new one.) from Barbarian to Paladin. The system is 13th Age.

Bit of background about the player.
He is new, this is his first tabletop and we started the campaign in January and have been 2-4 times a month for about 4-6 hours at a time over roll20, but we all know each other IRL. He is not a very good roleplayer, he has moments where he is good, but usually his standard response is "I go to sleep" when we hit an RP portion. The only things he has really gotten into were some scenes involving the dubious blessing of the Goddess of Justice, and some stuff with his family: but more to come on that. He is often distracted, and my friend who introduced him to the game caught him playing LoL during one of our sessions and called him on it. I have spoken to him a couple of times about being more active, and gone out of my way to give him hooks and things in the story, which I will go over in the character portion. He frequently zones out or is distracted by his girlfriend and we have to recap things he missed, remind him how his abilities work, and things of this nature. I have spoken to him out of game about all of this, and the whole group is tired of it. Last week I had enough and spoke to our mutual friend and said I was going to tell him things needed to change or he couldn't keep playing with us, my buddy said he'd talk to him first.

The convo went well, two of the other players talked to him and he apologized and said he wanted to grow as a player and try some new things, namely multi-classing. But then we found out he hasn't purchased any of the books, including the one that has rules for multiclassing, and has been relying on the core book SRD this whole time. Anyway he and I talked and he apologized and talked to me about his new character concept. I am skeptical, in this particular case what he wants to play could be difficult even for an experienced roleplayer. I told him as much, but he is very insistent.

TL;DR: This guy is not a good RPer, and this may be too much for him.

The character:
Background is he was a city guard in Shadowport, the most lawless city in the Empire, and his parents were mid-level operators in the Thieves Guild. They got caught and sentenced to hang, he cut them down from the gibbet to save them, and then fled into a self imposed exile that lasted for 3-5 years. Now he's travelling with the party. His One Unique Thing is that he is a nephew to the leader of the rebellion against the Empire. The Emperor is a lawful evil tyrant (technically there is no alignment in 13th Age, though.) and has become even worse since the sorceror who betrayed and murdered the party (they got ressed) has become the Empire's archmage. The Rebellion recovered them and ressed them to discover what had happened. His character has recieved in game help from the Goddess of Justice twice, and has decided that he wants to serve her as a paladin and bring the sorceror to justice. He also has promised to help the rebellion.

The Conflict:
The Rebel, his uncle, does not want to just stop the sorceror. He was leading the Rebellion before this guy was even known about, and he wants to dethrone the Emperor, who is the lawful ruler of the land. The party's cleric will under no circumstance side with the rebellion, because the Dwarves are allied to the Emperor, and he is a very loyal Dwarf. The party's tank will under no circumstances side with the Empire, because the Empire burned his family's farm to the ground. The rest of the party has varying degrees of loyalties to either faction. Both of the above are NPCs. When I designed and briefed the group on this campaign, I told them one of the major themes was going to be the rebellion and lots of morally grey decisions. Neither side is "right" in this conflict. The Goddess he wants to serve is the Goddess of Justice, here is her portfolio, as given to the players:

Astraia: Goddess of Justice
• Domains: Justice, Law, Order, Honor, Discipline
• Titles: Oathkeeper,
• Symbols: Tablet, Scales, Mace
• Basic Tenets: Honor obligations, maintain an orderly society, repay what is owed, mastery of self,
• Practices: Priests serve as magistrates in the absence of a governing official and are employed as official witnesses to legal agreements (Known as Obligators)

So personally I don't see the whole serving the rebellion thing working out - its very existence is unlawful.



Advice for the Player:
I gave him a couple of pointers to help him out. We talked through several of the dilemmas that he is undoubtedly going to face:
He made a promise to his uncle, but the rebellion is unlawful.
The emperor is a tyrant, but killing him is unlawful.
The party is full of mercenaries, and typically function outside of what is legal, though they are fairly good.

He had difficulty resolving these during our conversation, and I am skeptical about his ability to deal with them in character. I suggested that he consider his role to be to reign in the Rebellion's behavior as much as he can, and cooperate with them while trying to bring the Sorceror to justice, but to try and eventually serve as some kind of a mediator between the emperor and the rebels.

I also suggested making a personal "10 Commandments" for guidelines to his behavior. He is not LG, nor does he need to be. He needs to follow the teachings of Astraia, who is essentially LN. I have told him that any apparent conflicts with his teachings if he can sell them to me how he is doing it and still following her teachings he will be fine. I also told him to bounce some ideas off of two of our players who have alot of experience with RPing, in particular with paladins.


Advice For the DM:
I'm open to suggestions. I don't want to shoot this guy down, and he is very insistent that he wants to do this. I want to make this as feasible as possible for him, but I'm not going to spoonfeed him, particularly after the other issues I have had with him. Ideas?

Kid Jake
2014-09-10, 01:07 PM
Justice and Law aren't the same thing, if the Emperor is corrupt then it's conceivable that the Goddess of Justice might be fine with seeing him taken down a peg.

Hiro Protagonest
2014-09-10, 01:17 PM
"This guy is evil but a legitimate successor to the throne" is not a paladin moral conflict. "This guy treats his enemies like dirt but has reworked kingdom laws and logistics for the better" could be. Attaining the throne through legitimate means does not mean the paladin voted for him.

There's plenty of other conflict, but joining the rebellion is a perfectly valid option.

Ravian
2014-09-10, 01:20 PM
Lawful alignments don't necessarily mean that they are required to follow every demand of a society, especially an evil one. Directly killing the emperor may not be the best solution for a Paladin, however. If the misdeeds of the Emperor were known and could be proved, the best solution I can think of would be capturing the Emperor alive and publicly trying him for his misdeeds to the people of the empire. Therefore Justice is served and a brutal ruler is removed. It would definitely be in the interest of the Paladin to act as a stabilizer for the rebellion, to avoid any sort of reign of terror deal after the Emperor is removed.

Garimeth
2014-09-10, 02:00 PM
Justice and Law aren't the same thing, if the Emperor is corrupt then it's conceivable that the Goddess of Justice might be fine with seeing him taken down a peg.


"This guy is evil but a legitimate successor to the throne" is not a paladin moral conflict. "This guy treats his enemies like dirt but has reworked kingdom laws and logistics for the better" could be. Attaining the throne through legitimate means does not mean the paladin voted for him.

There's plenty of other conflict, but joining the rebellion is a perfectly valid option.


The Emperor isn't "corrupt" he's basically oppressive, but in an orderly tyrannical kind of way. Oppressive in the sense of not tolerating any threat to his rule, rooting out the insurgency of the rebellion with ruthless efficiency, and over-taxing the empire to recoup the loss of a decade of war with the orcs and 4 years of famine. He's not corrupt, he's ruthless and oppressive, but if you play by his rules you'll be fine.

@Jake: that's a route I was thinking of going also, but the problem is Astraia's church is firmly entrenched in the working of the government. Only way I can see to make it work is make the PC one of the few "true" followers of Astraia, but 1. it seems cheesy, and 2. not sure this guy can pull that off well.

@Hiro: The issue isn't so much a paladin moral conflict as a conflict of loyalties. Astraia is all about "the system" and would expect her followers to try and reform the system, not overthrow it. The rebellion is an insurgency, not a bunch of people fighting on the battlefield. Kind of at odds with a deity of justice, law, and order.


Lawful alignments don't necessarily mean that they are required to follow every demand of a society, especially an evil one. Directly killing the emperor may not be the best solution for a Paladin, however. If the misdeeds of the Emperor were known and could be proved, the best solution I can think of would be capturing the Emperor alive and publicly trying him for his misdeeds to the people of the empire. Therefore Justice is served and a brutal ruler is removed. It would definitely be in the interest of the Paladin to act as a stabilizer for the rebellion, to avoid any sort of reign of terror deal after the Emperor is removed.

Well, again there is no alignment in 13A, I just used those for quick reference for people more used to seeing alignment. To be a paladin in 13a and be part of the rebellion is not a problem, but I think that being a paladin of this particular deity and being part of the rebellion is going to require a certain amount of finesse at RP. Astraia's clerics are frequently called to serve as magistrates, especially in more remote portions of the Empire - so they are worked into the government in a certain sense. As for the misdeeds of the Emperor, think facist *******. His misdeeds are quite public, because his "crime" is running a totalitarian, but orderly and lawful, government. Think harsh punishments for crimes, Big Brother is watching, kind of thing. If you aren't a criminal, or a member of the rebellion, life is harsh but fair. And the harsh part is mostly due to over-taxing combined with a decade of war, a long famine, and general chaos in the Empire. The Emperor is harsh and controlling, but basically fair. Hence my comparison of him as being LE.

Definitely agree with that last bit about being a stabilizer, and that's one of the things we have talked about. Again though I see capturing the Emperor and publicly trying him as a "I am the one true follower of the goddess of justice" thing since he takes this mantle on his own, which could be cool if done right, I just don't know if this guy can pull it off...


So far the best suggestion is that he is the messenger of justice by bringing this guy to bear, however the deity is also a deity of law and order, and the rebellion is an insurgency. So ultimately the question becomes how does he interact with the rebellion. I mean when they first met these guys, they were about to get robbed because the rebels thought the party might be tax collectors.

EDIT: Also its not a given the party will join the rebellion. 1 PC is very against it, as is an important NPC, and I am not going to force them one way or the other. The party's "leader" is the PC who does not want to join the rebellion.

Kid Jake
2014-09-10, 02:15 PM
He wouldn't even have to be a 'true' follower, he could just have a different interpretation of what justice means. Just because 90% of a religion says one thing doesn't mean that 10% can't say another and neither has to be wrong. So long as he holds to her basic tenets and pursues what he believes to be a just and honorable path there's no reason to think that the higher law of a god can be confined to the law of the land.

If you and I both worship the God of Pasta and you along with most of the order proclaim his glory with your patented Holy Tomato Sauce (18 herbs and spices!) then naturally most people will associate tomato sauce with the God of Pasta and it starts to seem obvious that the Noodle Lord prefers zesty sauces. If I come in with a creamy parmesan spinach sauce then the rest of the order may call me an apostate and excommunicate me, but that doesn't mean that my sauce is any less legitimate in the grand scheme of things.

Garimeth
2014-09-10, 02:33 PM
He wouldn't even have to be a 'true' follower, he could just have a different interpretation of what justice means. Just because 90% of a religion says one thing doesn't mean that 10% can't say another and neither has to be wrong. So long as he holds to her basic tenets and pursues what he believes to be a just and honorable path there's no reason to think that the higher law of a god can be confined to the law of the land.

If you and I both worship the God of Pasta and you along with most of the order proclaim his glory with your patented Holy Tomato Sauce (18 herbs and spices!) then naturally most people will associate tomato sauce with the God of Pasta and it starts to seem obvious that the Noodle Lord prefers zesty sauces. If I come in with a creamy parmesan spinach sauce then the rest of the order may call me an apostate and excommunicate me, but that doesn't mean that my sauce is any less legitimate in the grand scheme of things.

Well this is assuming that the god of pasta doesn't appear or send visions clarifying their stance on the sauce. Which happens in my game, the PC in question has already been visited by a celestial sent by the goddess twice, and he wasn't even a follower. The individual's interpretation of justice is irrelevant, he isn't granting himself divinely channelled powers, the deity is. Lose the deity's favor, lose the deity's power. And its not like this is some arbitrary thing, the player and I have talked about exactly what this means for a follower of this deity.

Also, not sure if I worded it poorly, but part of this God's whole schtick IS the law of the land, as represented by an orderly, disciplined, lawful, and oblligation keeping society whose laws are partially administered by her clergy.

Kid Jake
2014-09-10, 02:39 PM
Then just tell him no?

We're tossing out ideas to help rationalize his character concept, but if the Goddess he wants to serve is just flat against it every which way you turn then that's that.

Garimeth
2014-09-10, 02:51 PM
Then just tell him no?

We're tossing out ideas to help rationalize his character concept, but if the Goddess he wants to serve is just flat against it every which way you look at it then that's that.

Well, I think there may be a way to make it work without him supporting the rebellion. I think him acting as a stabilizing factor to the rebellion's tactics is one way. I think that removing the sorceror who everybody is pretty sure is manipulating the emperor is another way. The problem is that essentially when it comes down to it he is going to have a line he can not cross, as most paladin's do eventually, and that's more where my concern lies. Its not so much his character concept as his ability to RP his concept right. I think the concept in the hands of the right player could be awesome. Problem is that he is very insistent that he wants to do this and he can handle it, and I don't want to squash his chance to grow as a player.

I'm less looking at ways to rationalize the concept, and more looking at ways to help him RP this character better, and as the DM provide options for him. He's not a strong player and couldn't rationalize his joining the rebellion even as well as you guys have, despite talking about it for like 30 minutes with me over Mumble. Tool like the whole "make yourself a personal 10 commandements" and things like that will be helpful, as well as ways I as the DM can guide the narrative in a way that limits the "harshness" of the choice when he makes it.

I deally he would decide to just play a fighter who worships the goddess and feels conflicted, but he is pretty dead set on paladin.

Jay R
2014-09-10, 03:00 PM
Based on your description of him as a role-player, I make the following two predictions:

1. As a paladin he will fall - pretty soon.

2. He will not understand why.

Are you willing to deal with that? If not, don't let him be a paladin. If you are, then have the plan for his fall ready. You'll need it.

Caveat: You know him better than I do, obviously, if you think my prediction is off the mark, feel free to ignore it.

Garimeth
2014-09-10, 03:05 PM
Based on your description of him as a role-player, I make the following two predictions:

1. As a paladin he will fall - pretty soon.

2. He will not understand why.

Are you willing to deal with that? If not, don't let him be a paladin. If you are, then have the plan for his fall ready. You'll need it.

Caveat: You know him better than I do, obviously, if you think my prediction is off the mark, feel free to ignore it.

*sigh* That's the problem, I DO agree with your statement - and I told him as much politely, but bluntly.

The thing is this was kind of like his "shape up or ship out" reaction, and he's my buddy's friend so I want to give him this last chance, and it helps that he is excited about the idea, but I just don't think he is gonna be able to pull it off, so I'm trying to find a way to help him do it, without babying him too much. It may be a lost cause.

Yora
2014-09-10, 03:27 PM
Not familiar with 13th age, but isn't it a variant of D&D? I'd advice making the character simply a cleric or some other kind of warmage. Very similar abilities and there's lots of room for the player to play the character as he wants to.
Or change the paladin class so that it works independent of alignment and paladin codes.

D+1
2014-09-10, 06:10 PM
If you honestly don't think he can pull it off AND everyone at the table will suffer for it then explain that to him and tell him to make up a character less problematic for the group. If, however, you are willing to give the player a chance then DO that. Do your best to ensure that the player, and everyone else at the table - which includes YOU - has a better game for it, not a worse one. But you also have to be able to accept that he might still blow it as a player. If you think your game and the other PC's can survive the fallout then so be it. If not, then don't set your game up to fall apart in the first place, because then that will be YOUR fault, now won't it?

Give the player concerned plenty of warnings and advice but don't SMOTHER the poor soul. It's still HIS character - NOT YOURS. If during the game he's going to have his character do something wrong/incorrect that will screw everything up, then DON'T wait until AFTER it's happened to react. STOP the player. Stop the game. Explain his error again and make sure he's aware of the consequences BEFORE you let things proceed.

In general I'd say let him have his fun. Let him fail if it comes to that. Just be sure that it's not going to bring your whole game crashing down if it does happen.

veti
2014-09-10, 06:23 PM
Lawful alignments don't necessarily mean that they are required to follow every demand of a society, especially an evil one.

With a focus on "justice, law, order, honor, discipline", the goddess looks to me like a pretty old-school authoritarian type. Unless the Emperor is actually in violation of some higher law (which is very hard for an Emperor to accomplish even if they actively try, because that's what "Emperor" means...), then I think she would say that you owe him obedience no matter how nasty he is.

There might be various get-out clauses, however. For instance, if you can show that the Emperor has broken his oath, or orders you to break yours, having previously approved of it. But that's about all I can think of offhand.

I can see the character, in effect, walking a tightrope between "shielding/helping his uncle" and "being loyal to the emperor". He could help his uncle by exploring/proposing/supporting lawful alternatives (including legal loopholes, always fun) to achieve some of his goals, in the hope that he can persuade him out of this "rebellion" madness in the long run. Lots of issues there, but unless he's personally ordered to hunt down and bring to justice the leaders of the rebellion, it needn't be a direct conflict.

Edit: If you do decide to let him play the character, then help him write down his paladin code before you start. The common versions you encounter are far, far, far too vague, relying on terms like "innocent", "justice", "honor", which really need to be nailed down with good rock-hard definitions so that the character can always work out, with a bit of effort, what he's required to do.

(Not necessarily what he should do. With a bit of imagination, he might be able to come up with a course that either fulfils the letter of his obligations, or changes them into something more palatable, while still allowing him to do the right thing. That's where the roleplaying comes in, and that's inevitably going to be up to the player. Maybe you can make suggestions from time to time, to prompt his thinking along the right lines, but ultimately it's about whether he can step up his game.)

Probably the biggest help you can give him, long-term, is to give him plenty of time to think about the tough decisions. For instance, spring it on him towards the end of a session, so he's got plenty of time to think it through - and talk to you about it OOC, if he wants - before he has to make a call.

Sagitta
2014-09-10, 06:34 PM
1. As a paladin he will fall - pretty soon.

13th Age paladins can't fall, (except by houserule). They need not be good or lawful or even self-consistent, there is even a paladin class talent Way of Evil Bastards.

To me it sounds like the player isn't interested in roleplaying this kind of moral dilemma. Why not give it to another player who is?

PrincessCupcake
2014-09-11, 12:41 AM
Here's my 2cp:

-make him roleplay out the petition to his goddess of choice, or otherwise prove himself worthy of her interest. Have him do some task for her first if he's not extremely convincing: something to prove that the rebellion is in the right to overthrow this dictatorial emperor, and that they fully intend to take on the responsibilities that come with a drastic change of leadership.

Make the mission tough to complete with his self-imposed code intact. It doesn't have to be inherently tough without considering the code: the whole point is to prove he can follow his code in the face of obstacles. Give him the paladin powers AFTER he's done this, and not before.

If he complains, say "A Paladin must embody the ideals of their patron to the letter and spirit. Your deity is asking you to prove you have what it takes, and will reward you if you succeed."

Alternatively, consider finding him a patron deity that more closely embodies the spirit of the quest they are on, and the ideals he has played upon up until this point. (( sort of a "this is not something the goddess can support in any way. But your pleas have been heard by another if you are willing to listen."))

Jay R
2014-09-11, 07:08 AM
Then I don't see that you have a choice. Let him try.

Be completely explicit. Tell him that you don't believe he can role-play it, and unlike his current class, this is one in which role-playing it correctly is required.

Make it extremely clear that after the third time he does something completely unacceptable as a paladin, his character will revert to what it was before.

Then try to help him succeed, and be ready to be pleasantly surprised. It may (possibly) be that what he needs it a character conception that excites him, in which case you've done the best thing possible for him.

And if not, you gave him his shot at it, as fairly and honestly as you could.

Hang on tight; it's liable to be a bumpy ride.

Yora
2014-09-11, 07:23 AM
13th Age paladins can't fall, (except by houserule). They need not be good or lawful or even self-consistent, there is even a paladin class talent Way of Evil Bastards.

To me it sounds like the player isn't interested in roleplaying this kind of moral dilemma. Why not give it to another player who is?
If 13th Age paladins can be of any alignment, I don't see why the class would be any different from any other character. Doesn't seem like there is any actual problem here.

Garimeth
2014-09-11, 08:01 AM
13th Age paladins can't fall, (except by houserule). They need not be good or lawful or even self-consistent, there is even a paladin class talent Way of Evil Bastards.

To me it sounds like the player isn't interested in roleplaying this kind of moral dilemma. Why not give it to another player who is?

This is true, but if you choose to follow a deity for your paladin-ness you have to obey their tenets, at least that's how I run it, the problem isn't so much the paladin, its his choice of deity.

He insists he is interested, and that he's up for the challenge.


If 13th Age paladins can be of any alignment, I don't see why the class would be any different from any other character. Doesn't seem like there is any actual problem here.

Well there is no alignment, but you get your powers by being devoted to a deity or a cause so noble it doesn't need a deity. The problem is he is deadset on this particular deity, despite my attempts to persuade him otherwise - he would have the same problem if he was playing a cleric of this deity.

Also just so everybody knows this whole "you have to follow your deity's tenets" isn't something I just sprung on this guy, one of the other PCs was a paladin, decided he lost his faith and used this reroll opportunity to RP him becoming a ranger instead - so they've seen it before, and I let them try and justify anything I feel is questionable. The last paladin worshipped the God of War, though, so it didn't really come up much because the player was experienced.


Then I don't see that you have a choice. Let him try.

Be completely explicit. Tell him that you don't believe he can role-play it, and unlike his current class, this is one in which role-playing it correctly is required.

Make it extremely clear that after the third time he does something completely unacceptable as a paladin, his character will revert to what it was before.

Then try to help him succeed, and be ready to be pleasantly surprised. It may (possibly) be that what he needs it a character conception that excites him, in which case you've done the best thing possible for him.

And if not, you gave him his shot at it, as fairly and honestly as you could.

Hang on tight; it's liable to be a bumpy ride.

Same conclusion I came to. I'm open to ideas and tips on implementation though!


If you honestly don't think he can pull it off AND everyone at the table will suffer for it then explain that to him and tell him to make up a character less problematic for the group. If, however, you are willing to give the player a chance then DO that. Do your best to ensure that the player, and everyone else at the table - which includes YOU - has a better game for it, not a worse one. But you also have to be able to accept that he might still blow it as a player. If you think your game and the other PC's can survive the fallout then so be it. If not, then don't set your game up to fall apart in the first place, because then that will be YOUR fault, now won't it?

Give the player concerned plenty of warnings and advice but don't SMOTHER the poor soul. It's still HIS character - NOT YOURS. If during the game he's going to have his character do something wrong/incorrect that will screw everything up, then DON'T wait until AFTER it's happened to react. STOP the player. Stop the game. Explain his error again and make sure he's aware of the consequences BEFORE you let things proceed.

In general I'd say let him have his fun. Let him fail if it comes to that. Just be sure that it's not going to bring your whole game crashing down if it does happen.

I may have misrepresented my stance. I've already decided to let him do it, though I have my reservations, I am mostly looking for advice on how to make this as successful as possible. Also, I'm not going to smother him, but this is the same guy who was tabbed out playing League of Legends when he was supposed to be roleplaying. Also the game will survive regardless of what anybody does, but I want to set this guy, and the group, up for success as much as I am able.


With a focus on "justice, law, order, honor, discipline", the goddess looks to me like a pretty old-school authoritarian type. Unless the Emperor is actually in violation of some higher law (which is very hard for an Emperor to accomplish even if they actively try, because that's what "Emperor" means...), then I think she would say that you owe him obedience no matter how nasty he is.
...
Edit: If you do decide to let him play the character, then help him write down his paladin code before you start. The common versions you encounter are far, far, far too vague, relying on terms like "innocent", "justice", "honor", which really need to be nailed down with good rock-hard definitions so that the character can always work out, with a bit of effort, what he's required to do.
...
Probably the biggest help you can give him, long-term, is to give him plenty of time to think about the tough decisions. For instance, spring it on him towards the end of a session, so he's got plenty of time to think it through - and talk to you about it OOC, if he wants - before he has to make a call.

Yeah you got the right idea of the deity. I assigned him the writing of the code, but I think I may write it for him and then allow him some input after the fact. Also, I talked to him about alot of these issues that I see coming, mostly to dissuade him, but it should help him somewhat.


Here's my 2cp:

-make him roleplay out the petition to his goddess of choice, or otherwise prove himself worthy of her interest. Have him do some task for her first if he's not extremely convincing: something to prove that the rebellion is in the right to overthrow this dictatorial emperor, and that they fully intend to take on the responsibilities that come with a drastic change of leadership.

Make the mission tough to complete with his self-imposed code intact. It doesn't have to be inherently tough without considering the code: the whole point is to prove he can follow his code in the face of obstacles. Give him the paladin powers AFTER he's done this, and not before.

If he complains, say "A Paladin must embody the ideals of their patron to the letter and spirit. Your deity is asking you to prove you have what it takes, and will reward you if you succeed."

Alternatively, consider finding him a patron deity that more closely embodies the spirit of the quest they are on, and the ideals he has played upon up until this point. (( sort of a "this is not something the goddess can support in any way. But your pleas have been heard by another if you are willing to listen."))

I like all this, and I told him already she had a quest he had to undertake (so it won't be a big surprise) - though I haven't thought of what it is yet. Since I think the stumbling block for him will be the whole morality thing I could have her tell him to go and resolve a dispute somewhere. The clerics function as magistrates in some places, and she could have him accompany a cleric and the cleric watch him as he resolves a dispute and administers justice in whatever way he deems appropriate to the guilty party. Kind of a test of his judgement. Less of a "go kill the outlaw" and more of a "Solomon offers to cut the baby in half" kind of thing. Thoughts anyone?


Thanks for the responses everyone, it really does help!

Yora
2014-09-11, 08:05 AM
Well there is no alignment, but you get your powers by being devoted to a deity or a cause so noble it doesn't need a deity. The problem is he is deadset on this particular deity, despite my attempts to persuade him otherwise - he would have the same problem if he was playing a cleric of this deity.

Also just so everybody knows this whole "you have to follow your deity's tenets" isn't something I just sprung on this guy, one of the other PCs was a paladin, decided he lost his faith and used this reroll opportunity to RP him becoming a ranger instead - so they've seen it before, and I let them try and justify anything I feel is questionable. The last paladin worshipped the God of War, though, so it didn't really come up much because the player was experienced.
Seems like there's no alternative than letting the player have his way and dealing with the consequences of his actions. He is informed, so he will have to live with it.

Garimeth
2014-09-11, 08:24 AM
Seems like there's no alternative than letting the player have his way and dealing with the consequences of his actions. He is informed, so he will have to live with it.

For sure. I'm not so much looking for help about the decision, as help about the implementation of it. Also I agree with Jay R that he will eventually fall so I'm looking for interesting ways to handle that narratively.

Lord Haart
2014-09-11, 11:10 AM
Well, you can let him be a paladin who thinks he serves said goddess of Justice. When(if) the time will come when it will be obvious to everyone and their mothers that his pro-rebel actions and goddess' will do not get along at all, let him mystifyingly not fall (even if the goddess herself appears in front of him and says "Dude, you don't seem to really care about me and now I finally see you never did; forget I've ever helped you and get out of my life!"). Then let the character eventually discover that his powers stem not from his devotion to GoJ, but to the ideal of Loyalty/Liberty/Goodness/American Way/(whatever his actions, not words, can best be labeled as; best discuss it with the player at this point) or (if the setting doesn't support paladins of ideal) that he is being sponsored by some other deity (perhaps a long forgotten embodiment of different aspect of Justice; perhaps simply someone connected to what the paladin actually did all this time). In the end, the player gets to both roleplay a paladin of GoJ (with all the drama ensuing) and to avoid losing his class, and after the revelation he's still a divine agent of something that has a far better chance of being in line with what the player thought when he heard "Justice".

Raptor_00
2014-09-11, 11:22 AM
So the back ground is one of my players wants to switch his class (I recently gave the entire party a chance to redo their characters or make a new one.) from Barbarian to Paladin. The system is 13th Age.
....

Advice For the DM:
I'm open to suggestions. I don't want to shoot this guy down, and he is very insistent that he wants to do this. I want to make this as feasible as possible for him, but I'm not going to spoonfeed him, particularly after the other issues I have had with him. Ideas?

Well, to me it sounds like a few things.

First he is "new" to roleplaying. 9 months of distracted playing is still pretty new. Why is he playing? Is it something to do, enjoayable, just being with friends, or does he enjoy the game?

Second, he doesn't have the book so that's why he's not comfortable with the rules and his abilities. Why doens't he? Cost? Lack or interest in the game?

Those things I think you need to address first and find out the whys of them.

As for the character concept. Honestly I think instead of giving him that whole set up, sit down with him and let him come up with a concept on his own. No matter how bad, just guide him within the confines of the Paladin class. That way it's his and he might want to roleplay his character more.
It's just a thought, but I never like playing a character that is basically written for me.

My 2cp (value may vary)

Garimeth
2014-09-11, 12:17 PM
Well, to me it sounds like a few things.

First he is "new" to roleplaying. 9 months of distracted playing is still pretty new. Why is he playing? Is it something to do, enjoayable, just being with friends, or does he enjoy the game?

Second, he doesn't have the book so that's why he's not comfortable with the rules and his abilities. Why doens't he? Cost? Lack or interest in the game?

Those things I think you need to address first and find out the whys of them.

As for the character concept. Honestly I think instead of giving him that whole set up, sit down with him and let him come up with a concept on his own. No matter how bad, just guide him within the confines of the Paladin class. That way it's his and he might want to roleplay his character more.
It's just a thought, but I never like playing a character that is basically written for me.

My 2cp (value may vary)

Well I didn't come up with all this for his character, he did. This was his response to the "do you really even want to play, you are never paying attention" conversation. He assured us he did want to play. As for the books, after I recommended he buy them at the last convo he bought them. He is just cheap, he has the money easily.

I initially thought the same things you did, asked him about them, and this chracter concept was his way of getting more into his character and stepping up his game as a roleplayer. I've already decided to let him run with it, but am looking for tips on how to implement it, set him up for success, and minimize the fallout if it ends how I suspect it will.


Well, you can let him be a paladin who thinks he serves said goddess of Justice. When(if) the time will come when it will be obvious to everyone and their mothers that his pro-rebel actions and goddess' will do not get along at all, let him mystifyingly not fall (even if the goddess herself appears in front of him and says "Dude, you don't seem to really care about me and now I finally see you never did; forget I've ever helped you and get out of my life!"). Then let the character eventually discover that his powers stem not from his devotion to GoJ, but to the ideal of Loyalty/Liberty/Goodness/American Way/(whatever his actions, not words, can best be labeled as; best discuss it with the player at this point) or (if the setting doesn't support paladins of ideal) that he is being sponsored by some other deity (perhaps a long forgotten embodiment of different aspect of Justice; perhaps simply someone connected to what the paladin actually did all this time). In the end, the player gets to both roleplay a paladin of GoJ (with all the drama ensuing) and to avoid losing his class, and after the revelation he's still a divine agent of something that has a far better chance of being in line with what the player thought when he heard "Justice".

I really like this!

Jay R
2014-09-11, 08:03 PM
For sure. I'm not so much looking for help about the decision, as help about the implementation of it. Also I agree with Jay R that he will eventually fall so I'm looking for interesting ways to handle that narratively.

Have the god appear, tell him that what he has done does not serve the god, and he will lose the powers that god granted him. But he continues, "I will watch you. Maybe you can somebody learn to serve me well."

From then on, he isn't threatened with consequences, he is inspired by hopes. When he does well, the god can grant him tiny bits of what a paladin has, and each one will be a reward.

Excession
2014-09-11, 09:05 PM
The Emperor isn't "corrupt" he's basically oppressive, but in an orderly tyrannical kind of way. Oppressive in the sense of not tolerating any threat to his rule, rooting out the insurgency of the rebellion with ruthless efficiency, and over-taxing the empire to recoup the loss of a decade of war with the orcs and 4 years of famine. He's not corrupt, he's ruthless and oppressive, but if you play by his rules you'll be fine.

It sounds like the Emperor is abusing the law to serve himself.

"When the "law of the land" shelters the guilty from justice, when it is used by the powerful to oppress and harm the weak, it is no just law. The Emperor is not above the Law, and he is not the final authority on it while a God or Paladin of Law and Justice lives. The Emperor is not the law. I AM THE LAW."

That's how I'd play it at least. :smallamused:

Making sure the rebellion can replace the Emperor with a just and lawful government of the people, rather than anarchy and lawlessness, would be a good goal.

Garimeth
2014-09-12, 07:38 AM
It sounds like the Emperor is abusing the law to serve himself.

"When the "law of the land" shelters the guilty from justice, when it is used by the powerful to oppress and harm the weak, it is no just law. The Emperor is not above the Law, and he is not the final authority on it while a God or Paladin of Law and Justice lives. The Emperor is not the law. I AM THE LAW."

That's how I'd play it at least. :smallamused:

Making sure the rebellion can replace the Emperor with a just and lawful government of the people, rather than anarchy and lawlessness, would be a good goal.

I mean I agree that could be AN incarnation of a goddess of justice, just not this one. I do agree with that last sentence though.


Have the god appear, tell him that what he has done does not serve the god, and he will lose the powers that god granted him. But he continues, "I will watch you. Maybe you can somebody learn to serve me well."

From then on, he isn't threatened with consequences, he is inspired by hopes. When he does well, the god can grant him tiny bits of what a paladin has, and each one will be a reward.

You know what, I like this because doing this is what has essentially caused him to want him to be a paladin I think. A celestial appeared to him before a big battle as a squire and blessed his sword then disappeared, and another time he prayed for assistance and she responded by blessing it again (but permanently this time) and giving him a 1/day clerical ability called invocation of justice.

sleepy hedgehog
2014-09-12, 10:33 AM
Here is another way you could look at it, though I'm not actually sure if it fits Goddess's outlook.
Occasional rebellions are a necessary part of this government:

First, it forces the government to allow for enough freedoms, as to prevent the population from joining them.

Secondly, it creates patriotism in two ways. It provides an enemy that isn't particularly dangerous (compared to a foreign nation). This would allow the population to rally against it, providing support for the government. Additionally, once the rebellion is put down, it helps remove the largest dissenters.

Since the Goddess already has a lot of people running the government she can spare a paladin or two to other backup plans. Seeding the rebellion with a person or two, would allow her a bit of control. Even if the paladin is unwilling to sabotage what he believes in he still has other uses. His goal could be to try to prevent excessive damage to the country as a whole. It would be bad for the country as a whole if a scorched earth policy was used by the rebellion. Additionally, on the off chance the rebellion does succeed, it doesn't hurt to be the god of one of the major leaders.


This is how I explain why Rakdos was a required part of Ravnica. Simply by being a foil to the rest of the guild, it provides an important function.

Garimeth
2014-09-12, 11:46 AM
Here is another way you could look at it, though I'm not actually sure if it fits Goddess's outlook.
Occasional rebellions are a necessary part of this government:

First, it forces the government to allow for enough freedoms, as to prevent the population from joining them.

Secondly, it creates patriotism in two ways. It provides an enemy that isn't particularly dangerous (compared to a foreign nation). This would allow the population to rally against it, providing support for the government. Additionally, once the rebellion is put down, it helps remove the largest dissenters.

Since the Goddess already has a lot of people running the government she can spare a paladin or two to other backup plans. Seeding the rebellion with a person or two, would allow her a bit of control. Even if the paladin is unwilling to sabotage what he believes in he still has other uses. His goal could be to try to prevent excessive damage to the country as a whole. It would be bad for the country as a whole if a scorched earth policy was used by the rebellion. Additionally, on the off chance the rebellion does succeed, it doesn't hurt to be the god of one of the major leaders.


This is how I explain why Rakdos was a required part of Ravnica. Simply by being a foil to the rest of the guild, it provides an important function.

Well I don't know about point 2, civil wars can be pretty bad...

But your last paragraph could provide for a very nice plot twist. I also need to figure out what a good moral dilemma for him to adjudicate during his "test" is. Any ideas, anyone?

Daishain
2014-09-12, 01:06 PM
I have no idea about the 13th age, but in D&D 3.5E there is a Chaotic Good class variant known as a Paladin of Freedom. Essentially the same abilities, but sworn to serve the cause of the people against corrupt governments rather than law and order

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm (about halfway down the page)

It fits with his origins and his current purpose. I don't think it would be too difficult to whip up your own homebrew variant of the 13th age paladin that follows a similar line of thinking

Garimeth
2014-09-12, 01:14 PM
I have no idea about the 13th age, but in D&D 3.5E there is a Chaotic Good class variant known as a Paladin of Freedom. Essentially the same abilities, but sworn to serve the cause of the people against corrupt governments rather than law and order

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm (about halfway down the page)

It fits with his origins and his current purpose. I don't think it would be too difficult to whip up your own homebrew variant of the 13th age paladin that follows a similar line of thinking

Thanks! Yeah the problem isn't so much the concept as the particular deity he wants and our doubts about his ability to roleplay it well, but I've decided to give him a shot at it. I've heard a couple of cool ways I can put a spin on it if he fails. At this point I'm mostly trying to think of a cool test for him, and any other tricks people have to help him RP it better.