Whedonverse alignments

[Ditto]

Okay, I'll bite. Over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36897&page=2#55) someone asked what characters over Joss Whedon's works would be classified as alignment-wise. Let's have a go at it, shall we? Here are my interpretations.

BUFFY
Buffy - LG (As much as she's a firebrand, I wouldn't call her chaotic.)
Willow - NG
Xander - NG
Giles - LG
Spike - NE -> CG?
Anya - CN
Faith - CN -> CE -> Some kind of good. (She's got a little bit of all of them now...)
Dawn - Who cares?

ANGEL
Angel - LN <-> LG (Sure, he was all tortured with a soul, but that doens't make him *good*. He switches back and forth between LN and 'Crusader'.)
Cordelia - CN -> CG
Wesley - LG -> CG
Gunn - CG
Fred - LG
Lorne - Neutral Neutral (Not TN-'Balance' neutral)
Harmony - Who cares?

FIREFLY
Mal - LN ('reliable and honorable without being a zealot.' Yup. He's got a soft heart now and again, but he is *not* a 'Crusader' anymore. Also, I don't buy CG. He's way lawful.)
Zoe - LG
Wash - NG (He's just like Xander, teehee!)
Jayne - CE
Kaylee - NGGG (Teehee!)
Inara - LN (She's all about tradition, but I dunno how far into the Good camp she's committed.)
Book - NG/LN? (I feel most clergy would fall into NG, but sometimes you wonder about him...)
Simon - LG
River - Who the hell knows? I guess LN, in the end...

[ray53208]

i wouldnt peg jayne as CE. NE, maybe. hes not out to buck the system and take as many folks down as he can along the way, hes just out for number one. and he always sends money back home to mama.

and river just might be CN.

[sun_tzu]

Buffy seems more like NG than LG to me...

[AmoDman]

Angel is definitely Lawful Good. True, he had his spit of vengeance in season 2, but everything else he ever did was always to painfully uphold what's good and right and all that nonesense. Season 5 he was tired, disillusioned almost, but still truckin'. His "fall" was...well, that's a spoiler, so I won't say.

Fred? Fred went against the grain more than umpteen times...I'd peg her as Chaotic Good. Hell I'd peg the whole Fang Gang as Chaotic Good (except for Lorne...wavering between NG and Neutral Neutral). And you didn't include Doyle! :smallfrown: CG/CN.

p.s. I agree, Buffy is Neutral Annoying...I mean Good.

[ray53208]

buffy, although i adore her, tends toward moping and quitting when things look bleak. but thats what friends are for: to cheer you up and cheer you on.

she rebelled against her calling, true, but she also strived for normalcy and longed for a more traditional life. its a tough call.

id say LG with issues... but i love her, so its all good.

fred was so lawful it hurts. doyle was good all the way. and yeah, when angel wasnt being angelus, or all full of wrath and vengeance, he was LG.

angelus was CE, and angel when he went through that phase of the angries is a hard call... im leaning toward LN with an axe to grind.

[Ditto]

This is true about Doyle... I left Connor out too, because he was lame. :smalltongue: Doyle's definitely CG.

Angel is -so freaking emo- and I'm sick of people saying he gets all these points for it. It's a curse! :smallamused:

Fred, CG? I guess I can see that, but as a scientist and in general her MO seems to be 'use the system'. If anything, she seems more of a 'one step off' into NG. It is interesting that the Fang Gang's CGish, since they're *way* more crusade-y than the Scoobies, who are NG-leaning-LG.

[Tengu]

Mal - LN (or CN, depending on how you interpret lawful/chaotic alignment) in the pilot episode, LG (CG) as usually portrayed - not the paladinesque type pf LG though.
Zoe - LN, with good tendencies.
Wash - NG.
Jayne - NE.
Kayle - CG.
Inara - NG.
Book - LG.
Simon - LG.
River - CN.

[Jerthanis]

FIREFLY
Mal - LN ('reliable and honorable without being a zealot.' Yup. He's got a soft heart now and again, but he is *not* a 'Crusader' anymore. Also, I don't buy CG. He's way lawful.)


and... y'know, what Fanty and Mingo said about him was just them lying. Something like, "You're a wild card, you run when you aughta fight, fight when you aughta deal..." He's got a duty to his crew that he does his best to uphold, but he's shown very capriciously fulfilling it at times. He betrays and goes back on his word, and fights dirty. The last thing I'd call Mal is lawful, but I'd peg him as either true neutral or neutral good, and not chaotic. His duty to his crew and his dedication to seeing things through balance out his propensity to sucker punch his opponents and so on.

[Ditto]

"You're a wild card, you run when you aughta fight, fight when you aughta deal..." He's got a duty to his crew that he does his best to uphold, but he's shown very capriciously fulfilling it at times. He betrays and goes back on his word, and fights dirty. His duty to his crew and his dedication to seeing things through balance out his propensity to sucker punch his opponents and so on.

If he backs out of a promise, he feels bad about it and tries to make up for it (The Train Job with Niske). As for fighting dirty... Lawful doesn't preclude kicking your opponent while he's down. There are some agreements that are more important than others - keeping the crew together over these silly niceties of society (esp. in Shindig), for instance. Duty to his crew is probably THE overriding concern in Mal's life. In what cases would you say he deliberately went back on his word without remorse?

[ray53208]

fanty and mingo (and jayne for that matter) have mercenary sensibilities. of course they arent going to understand malcolms personal code of honor. dong ma? you can tell that malcolm finds working with them unsavory, his actions are a perfect example of a lawful good man pressed into a corner.

[Jerthanis]

fanty and mingo (and jayne for that matter) have mercenary sensibilities. of course they arent going to understand malcolms personal code of honor. dong ma? you can tell that malcolm finds working with them unsavory, his actions are a perfect example of a lawful good man pressed into a corner.

That's a good argument, but I'd still say his life of crime and personal ideals of individual freedoms are strong enough balancing factors to cancel out his personal code of honor. I'd still paint him neutral on the law-chaos axis. I personally think kicking (stabbing) someone repeatedly when they're down, for no reason beyond that you feel like it is chaotic.

[AmoDman]

That's a good argument, but I'd still say his life of crime and personal ideals of individual freedoms are strong enough balancing factors to cancel out his personal code of honor. I'd still paint him neutral on the law-chaos axis. I personally think kicking (stabbing) someone repeatedly when they're down, for no reason beyond that you feel like it is chaotic.

Ah, but that assumption is based off of a single actions or few actions, whereas the prior argument is evolved from Mal's overall character. So the question is, does personal code or random actions generate alignment. Neutral seems like a cop out if he's got a heavy set of both, but maybe possible.

*not weighing in on eihter side of the argument...it has been a long time since I've seen Firefly, but I felt the distinction in logic should be noted*

[ray53208]

That's a good argument, but I'd still say his life of crime and personal ideals of individual freedoms are strong enough balancing factors to cancel out his personal code of honor. I'd still paint him neutral on the law-chaos axis. I personally think kicking (stabbing) someone repeatedly when they're down, for no reason beyond that you feel like it is chaotic.

atherton wing had it comin'! and its absolutely NOTHING like when lawrence dobbs beat shepherd book over the head twice more after knocking him out. dobbs was an evil cheong bao ho tze chwen.

[Ditto]

It was a duel to the death... there were no rules about stabbing who where when, it's Atherton's fault he was distracted. Cheating would be pulling a gun, or having Jayne come and stab him. *Those* were specifically prohibited. A Lawful man never kicks someone in the balls? Funny story, actually... my friend is in the Army, and is very LG IRL. The Army's official protocol for determining whether terrorists you've downed are dead or just faking is to kick them in the balls and see if they react. The Army rocks.

Shooting the Operative when he made a point of saying he was unarmed, *that* might be considered fighting dirty. That said, he knew full well that the Operative was backed up by a full detachment of Alliance troopers and he was, in fact, wearing full body armor. Very different from stabbing him in the back in an alleyway for kicks.

Also, there are Lawful thieves... what, you've never heard the phrase 'honor among thieves'? It's a very sophisticated underworld, and Mal's as honorable as thieves come.

[Mr._Blinky]

I'd put Mal as neutral on law-chaos. He has a strong personal code of honor, but he's still willing to break laws he feels are unjust if it means saving himself or his crew. As for good-evil, I'd say he's neutral as portrayed in the pilot, but good throughout most of the rest, though not a seriously strong good.

[Megalomaniac2]

Because I'm lazy, I'll do the Big Bads:

The Master: Hardcore stick-up-the-butt Lawful Evil.

Angelus: Chaotic Awesome. I mean, evil.

The Mayor: Lawful Evil, right down to the hygiene.

Adam: Lawful Evil, as befits a cyborg.

Glory: Chaotic Evil on steroids and high heels.

Darth Rosenberg: Chaotic Evil.

Geek Trio: Neutral Lame.

The First: Neutral, since it encompasses all evil.

Wolfram and Hart: They're LAWYERS. What do you think they're going to be?

Darla: Neutral Evil. Chaotic by default, but is completely submissive to The Master.

Drusilla: Chaotic Chaotic Miss Edith has been bad.

Holtz: True Neutral, willing to go either way and do anything to get what his revenge... Poor bugger.

The Beast: Lawful Evil, completely a tool of its master.

Jasmine: Lawful Evil, all about the dominance.

Circle of the Black Thorn: Lawful Evil. A force for control and enforcement of the status quo.

[Ditto]

Lessee...
- The Master: Hardcore stick-up-the-butt Lawful Evil. Yup!
- Angelus: Chaotic Awesome. I mean, evil. No! He's destructive, but he's plan-y! He's all about drawing out the kill for the most hurt, and that requires a fantastic finesse and elegance. Pre-Scooby *Spike* is CE. All he wants to do is fight slayers. CE ~ Deathwish. :smallbiggrin:
- The Mayor: LE, yup. I'd revise Faith to say NE, she's just in it for what sh can get away with.
- Adam: LE, yup.
- Glory: CE, yup
- Darth Rosenberg: CE, yup.
- Geek Trio: Neutral AWESOME! I'd say Jonathan and Andrew are LN (they're pretty linear thinkers, and rely on their awesome plans), and Warren is sort of NE/LE.
- The First: Neutral, since it encompasses all evil. Neutral EVIL, you mean, right?
- Wolfram and Hart: LE, yup.
- Darla: Neutral Evil. Chaotic by default, but is completely submissive to The Master. See, I'd say NE leaning Lawful. She's a pretty clever tart, and being such a rowdy party girl.
- Drusilla: Chaotic Chaotic Miss Edith has been bad. Again, I wouldn't even call her evil sometimes. Kaylee is NGGG, Drusilla is CCCE. :smallsmile:
- Holtz: True Neutral... I see your point, but anyone fuelled by revenge turns dark side pretty quickly. A few hundred years later, he's definitely jumped ship. And he's uber-lawful. So plot-y!
- The Beast: LE, yup.
- Jasmine: LE, yup.
- Circle of the Black Thorn: LE, yup.

Look how clever! All of the useful villains are Lawful.

[Dragonrider]

Jayne always brings Belkar to mind...

[DeathQuaker]

BUFFY
Buffy - LG (As much as she's a firebrand, I wouldn't call her chaotic.)


It's hard to say NG or LG. She's definitely got a whole code thing going on, but she also often seems to fight the idea of "the way it was always done" and is often defiant against authority. With both some lawful traits and some chaotic traits I'd say she balances out as Neutral.



Spike - NE -> CG?

CE -> CN -> CG. William the Bloody was probably Neutral. But Spike was a pretty chaos-centered baddie who slowly sought the softer side of Slayers. I mean life. That's what I meant.



Anya - CN

Agreed although I'll note the concept of "vengeance demon" seems to be LE (like an Erinyes).



Faith - CN -> CE -> Some kind of good. (She's got a little bit of all of them now...)

While having some honorable tendencies, I'll still put Faith in the noble rebel camp and call her CG.



Dawn - Who cares?

Sadly I agree but let's say NG.

Also, I think they deserve a mention:

Tara - LG
Andrew - LE -> LN -> LG



ANGEL
Angel - LN <-> LG (Sure, he was all tortured with a soul, but that doens't make him *good*. He switches back and forth between LN and 'Crusader'.)


Angel's very not into tradition and defiant of authority. Hates being in the position of a lawyer and having to play by the rules. Does work hard to keep his promises.... except when he doesn't and uses his word to betray someone. So I'm having trouble seeing him as "lawful."

Now, in some ways he might strive towards lawfulness. But I'd say overall N/NG.



Cordelia - CN -> CG
Wesley - LG -> CG


With Wes, the full shift was something like LG -> NG -> NN -> CN -> CG



Gunn - CG


Gunn's an honorable soul, keeps his word, thinks ties with others are important... and he LOVED the whole lawyer thing... loved playing by the rules and winning at it. I'd say LG. Maybe NG.



Fred - LG

"Can I say something about destiny? Screw destiny. If this evil thing comes, we'll fight it, and we 'l keep fighting it until we whip it. Because destiny's just another word for inevitable, and nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say you're evitable! ... Well, you catch my drift."

Actually, it's not the best to use but... I have trouble seeing Fred as Lawful. Not very ordered in life or deed. She's very personally prinicpled, but doesn't necessarily think much in terms of hierarchy or authority or tradition or codes and rules. Likewise she's not especially rebellious or into personal liberation over all else. She always does try to do the right thing. So... I'd say NG.



Lorne - Neutral Neutral (Not TN-'Balance' neutral)


Absolutely.


Harmony - Who cares?

But again, just for fun... NE/NN.

And you forgooooooot....

Illyria - She's hard to peg, actually. Lawful, definitely. Very ordered, very needs to define and categorize everything, speaks about many things in terms of rule and authority and how to be a good leader. The ancient demons were theoretically evil, but while she enjoys power she's not especially cruel/destructively selfish. I'd veer towards LN. Or maybe she's LE on her way to LN.


FIREFLY
Snipping as I agree with all except...


Book - NG/LN? (I feel most clergy would fall into NG, but sometimes you wonder about him...)

First of all, most clergy are expected to take vows and respect their internal hierarchy and put forth ecclesiastic traditions, so they would most often be Lawful--at least in a very general sense. Individuals you have to judge accordingly.

But I think Book does follow a fairly ordered lifestyle, so LG works well. But I don't balk too much at NG either.



River - Who the hell knows? I guess LN, in the end...

I believe her alignment is "Neutral Plot-Device."

[Sundog]

I disagree with your placement of Giles as LG. Yes, that's the persona he usually radiates - but you've forgotten the Ripper.

By the time of the series, I'd call him NG. He'll do whatever he has to for his friends and reality as a whole, and won't let the rules get in the way.

[Pokemaster]

Mal really doesn't make much sense alignment-wise. He's extremely lawful when it comes to dealing with his crew, but his whole deal is that he fought the oppressively lawful Alliance and that he believes that people should be able to do whatever they want, which makes him chaotic. Likewise, he doesn't go around killing people randomly, but he's got no problem shoving people through his ship's engine if it looks like a good idea. The only decent alignment for him would be Neutral.

[Cubey]

Mal really doesn't make much sense alignment-wise. He's extremely lawful when it comes to dealing with his crew, but his whole deal is that he fought the oppressively lawful Alliance and that he believes that people should be able to do whatever they want, which makes him chaotic. Likewise, he doesn't go around killing people randomly, but he's got no problem shoving people through his ship's engine if it looks like a good idea. The only decent alignment for him would be Neutral.

Mal, in my opinion, is Chaotic. He isn't lawful when dealing with his crew - from what I saw, he "imposed" only two rules:
1. Work before you play, which while not being chaotic, isn't lawful either (maybe very slightly). It's more common-sensish.
2. Don't betray each other. This isn't lawful, it's good. And even evil people follow that rule if they want to have loyal underlings.

As for killing people "if it looks like a good idea", it didn't just look like a good idea. That happened ONCE, and it was because the guy whom he killed was swearing to kill him one day in the future, and HAD the resources to do it. It was reasonable, and I'd laugh in the face of a DM who'd call that an evil act.

'Sides, there were a lot of good things that Mal had done, including but not limited to letting Simon and River stay on board (despite knowing how many problems it'd put on his head, probably more than having a doctor is worth), returning the stolen medicine when he discovered its purpose, and not shooting Saffron, even though he could and she tried to kill/swindle him multiple times.

Mal is clearly Chaotic Good, who just POSES as a Lawful Neutral with Evil tendencies. However, he's so good at this posing that he managed to fool quite a number of people, not only in the series but in real life too.

[ray53208]

william the bloody was CE. he liked evil, but he loved chaos. mortal william was a Lawful sort, prim and proper and most likely a good person. soulful spike was good, and kinda nuetral, so id say NG.

demon anyanka was definitely LE. very letter of the agreement, but not the spirit kind of demon. anya jenkins was Lawful and tried to be good, but id peg her as LN.

andrew? <sigh> okay... andrew was NE in the trio. his ultimate incarnation is True Nuetral in my opinion.

wesley was, is, and always shall be Lawful. thats why its a big deal for him to go against that. a HUGE deal and he doesnt do it often. he teeters from Good to Nuetral and back to Good.

giles is hard to peg down. hes mostly Lawful and he tends toward Good. ripper was a long time ago and something hes not proud of. to me that suggests an alignment shift from Chaotic and even possibly Evil.

and by the way WHAT IS IT WITH THE SUMMERS GIRLS?! always with the bad boys. geez. ripper and joyce, buffy and spike, dawn and that one vampire guy.

the fact that malcolm reynolds has rules and he lives by them makes him more Lawful than Chaotic. mals rule isnt that people shouldnt betray eachother, its that they shouldnt betray him... or he will kill them (or beat them up). work before you play is more Lawful than Chaotic; playing any time you like regardless of what needs to be done is pretty Chaotic (though not necessarily Evil).

[roninkelt]

I don't think that alignments are the right descriptors for his universes. The characters are too complex for such a simplistic description. D20 Modern allegiances fit much better...

[ray53208]

sure alignments aint perfect. no complex human portrayal can be quantified so easily; but these are the tools we are given and we are trying to do the best we can with them.

[DeathQuaker]

I take it as a fun game to try and see how things fit. "Alignments are guidelines, not a straight jacket" and all that. It's an interesting and basic way just to explore the general ethics and morality of these characters.

[ray53208]

agreed. and as such an exercise it could allow us to deepen and expand upon the portrayal of our own characters. whether you are a pc looking to get more out of your RP or a gm who desires to add some pinache to your npcs.

[Caledonian]

FIREFLY
Mal - LN ('reliable and honorable without being a zealot.' Yup. He's got a soft heart now and again, but he is *not* a 'Crusader' anymore. Also, I don't buy CG. He's way lawful.)

I think zealotry depends on how far you take the Lawfulness. Not every LG person is a paladin - not every LN person is a zealot.

I think Mal started as LG, and various experiences have caused him to become more flexible in both his habits of thought and his applied ethics. He's done chaotic things, and he's done unethical and even evil things. His core nature is still LG, though. LG <=> NN

[Caledonian]

2. Don't betray each other. This isn't lawful, it's good. And even evil people follow that rule if they want to have loyal underlings.

No, it's not good - it's lawful. Chaotic good people will break promises and shatter allegiances if they feel it's necessary, or even desirable. They just won't tend to do so if it would cause pain to others, unless there's a greater good.

A deeply chaotic person who isn't good wouldn't hold to principles if it became inconvenient, which is why Jayne would never make a good captain. Others can't trust him to be consistent.


Mal is clearly Chaotic Good, who just POSES as a Lawful Neutral with Evil tendencies. However, he's so good at this posing that he managed to fool quite a number of people, not only in the series but in real life too.

Mal veers between Lawful Good and neutrality on each axis. His pragmatism and flexibility is a Chaotic trait, and his honor and consistency is Lawful. His concern for others is Good, while his willingness to hurt and steal to get what he wants is Evil.

[PaladinFreak]

Caledonian, I think you sig fits this situation perfectly. I would characterize Mal as good, for reasons such as the aforementioned treatment of Simon and River, as well as his acts during the Train Job.

I think that he is neutral on the L/C axis. Not balanced, as much as willing to perform both lawful and chaotic acts (such as a combination of strong loyalty to his crew, and his blatant disregard for authority).

[Caledonian]

Reavers are the ultimate Chaotic Evil, by the way. Very few things are that Chaotic and/or that Evil.

[ray53208]

Ethan Rayne is definitely Chaotic. the man whorships chaos. hes also slightly Evil. okay, maybe more than slightly. but id peg him as more mischeivious than malicious.

[Mewtarthio]

i wouldnt peg jayne as CE. NE, maybe. hes not out to buck the system and take as many folks down as he can along the way, hes just out for number one. and he always sends money back home to mama.

and river just might be CN.

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean "I'm gonna destroy all order and turn the world into a chaotic hellhole!"; It means "I'm gonna do what I think's best for me right now, and screw everything else." A lot of characters end up Neutral because they tend to do things on either extreme, but Jayne is definately Chaotic.

River's alignment is "Totally and utterly insane." I have no idea what sort of alignment you give to someone as completely crazy as River.


Reavers are the ultimate Chaotic Evil, by the way. Very few things are that Chaotic and/or that Evil.

They'r not very intelligent. I put them at True Neutral because they only do what comes naturally to them.

...What? I'm just kidding! They're, like, Chaotic Evil with the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes.

[ray53208]

reavers defy logic. thet can maintain and operate a ship, they can set traps, they lack any regard for personal safety, they prefer to cause suffering to their victims, and they seem to congregate more or less peaceably (so far as i can tell). yeah alignment subtypes might just suit them.

[Catch]

reavers defy logic. thet can maintain and operate a ship, they can set traps, they lack any regard for personal safety, they prefer to cause suffering to their victims, and they seem to congregate more or less peaceably (so far as i can tell). yeah alignment subtypes might just suit them.

I chuckled.

In a more serious line of thought--though while we're applying standardized RPG morality to another fictional setting while still holding up the tenets of modern psychology, I hesitate to take anything "seriously"--I'd describe the Reavers as more psychopathic than anything else. They're not precisely stupid, simply barbaric and devoid of any conventional conscience or morality. Lacking scruples--or a regard for life in general--isn't mutually exclusive with intelligence, I'd say.

[ray53208]

for more indepth analysis of reavers and reaver psychology read "The Heirs of Sawney Beane" by Lawrence Watt-Evans, Finding Serenity, pages 17-28 (ISBN 1932100431).

the book is really a truly wonderful collection of essays on firefly edited by Jane Espenson.