[3.5] Cleric/Bone Knight Feats/Domains?

[Extra Anchovies]

Hello all! I'm looking to play a cleric in my next game, specifically one that A) controls a horde of undead minions (or just a few really big ones) and B) goes a full 10 levels in Bone Knight.

1. After going Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10, what class should I take next? More Cleric, or a PrC? Master of Shrouds looks nice for the extra rebuking to fuel DMM, and I'd be able to summon shadows and wraiths, but the feat tax is gross.

2. What feats should I take? Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, Extend Spell, and Extra Turning are musts, of course, but what else? Maybe some of the Corpsecrafter feats from Libris Mortis? Tomb-tainted soul, so I can heal myself with spontaneous inflicts?

3. What domains should I choose? Again, goal is for raising undead minions on off-days and busting heads in melee during adventures. I'm thinking Deathbound for sure. Maybe the second one should just be the Undeath domain for free Extra Turning?

4. What spells are best for a melee cleric to Persist? Divine Power is obvious, as is Righteous Might and Divine Favor. Are there any other particularly good spells to have persisted?

[atemu1234]

Death and Undeath domains, Extra and Improved Turning with undead boosts, maybe investing in some metamagic and item creation feats.

[Extra Anchovies]

Death and Undeath domains, Extra and Improved Turning with undead boosts, maybe investing in some metamagic and item creation feats.

Hm, all good suggestions. I'm not a fan of item creation myself, because I'm a miser for XP; are there any easy ways to get crafting XP outside of Thought Bottle abuse?

As for the feat progression, I was thinking as follows:
1st: Extend Spell, Extra Turning, Persistent Spell (flaw), Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (flaw), Tomb-Tainted Soul (flaw, if I can get three)
3rd: Extra Turning
6th: Corpse Crafter
9th: Extra Turning
12th: Nimble Bones
15th: Destruction Retribution
18th: Deadly Chill
Between the base rebukes/day, the two extra turning feats I take, and the extra turning from the undeath domain, that gives me 19+Cha turns/day. Enough to power three Extended Persisted spells per day if I have Cha 14+, which is easily done. With a Nightstick, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and some bonuses to Charisma (Belt of Magnificence, anyone?), I can get 29 turning attempts per day, enough to cast four Extended Persisted spells per day, for a total of eight active at a time. Divine Power, Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Conviction, Superior Resistance (which stacks with Conviction; one's a morale bonus, the other is a resistance bonus), one of the Vigor chain of spells, and Greater Blindsight seems like a nice set, yah?

...I think I'm starting to understand why Divine Metamagic is so powerful...

[Jack_Simth]

Hello all! I'm looking to play a cleric in my next game, specifically one that A) controls a horde of undead minions (or just a few really big ones) and B) goes a full 10 levels in Bone Knight.

1. After going Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10, what class should I take next? More Cleric, or a PrC? Master of Shrouds looks nice for the extra rebuking to fuel DMM, and I'd be able to summon shadows and wraiths, but the feat tax is gross.

2. What feats should I take? Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, Extend Spell, and Extra Turning are musts, of course, but what else? Maybe some of the Corpsecrafter feats from Libris Mortis? Tomb-tainted soul, so I can heal myself with spontaneous inflicts?

3. What domains should I choose? Again, goal is for raising undead minions on off-days and busting heads in melee during adventures. I'm thinking Deathbound for sure. Maybe the second one should just be the Undeath domain for free Extra Turning?

4. What spells are best for a melee cleric to Persist? Divine Power is obvious, as is Righteous Might and Divine Favor. Are there any other particularly good spells to have persisted?

Depends on what level of optimization is appropriate at your table.

1) Any full casting Divine PrC will do.
2) Troll Blooded (Dragon 319) is particularly tasty on a Bone Knight, especially if you regularly cast Energy Immunity (Fire) and Energy Immunity (Cold) - both Spell Compendium. Goes particularly well with Diehard.
3) Sounds about right.
4) Quite a few. Delay Death (Spell Compendium) takes some hoops, but is usually worth the expense. Holy Star (Spell Compendium) is an Effect spell that normally lasts 3 rounds... but it has a fixed range and is not discharged, so it qualifies. As an Effect spell, you can have more than one. It can give you some spell turning, a nice circumstance bonus to AC, or a free action attack (ranged fire, 90 feet). And you can have more than one.

[Extra Anchovies]

Depends on what level of optimization is appropriate at your table.

1) Any full casting Divine PrC will do.
2) Troll Blooded (Dragon 319) is particularly tasty on a Bone Knight, especially if you regularly cast Energy Immunity (Fire) and Energy Immunity (Cold) - both Spell Compendium. Goes particularly well with Diehard.
3) Sounds about right.
4) Quite a few. Delay Death (Spell Compendium) takes some hoops, but is usually worth the expense. Holy Star (Spell Compendium) is an Effect spell that normally lasts 3 rounds... but it has a fixed range and is not discharged, so it qualifies. As an Effect spell, you can have more than one. It can give you some spell turning, a nice circumstance bonus to AC, or a free action attack (ranged fire, 90 feet). And you can have more than one.

Hm. Holy Star, what's that one...

"+10 circumstance bonus to AC"

Christ.

Not sure how I'd justify a follower of Mystra taking the Undeath and Deathbound domains, though. May have to pass on that spell, sadly. So very sadly. Christ. +10 circumstance to AC. Circumstance. What.

*regains composure* Anyways. Troll-Blooded does look like a really nice choice, even with the feat tax. I'll have to see if the DM allows regional feats.

Delay Death, I think, is just way too much cheese for whatever table I'll end up at (don't have a solid group formed yet). It's only a third-level spell, so I would be able to cast it Extended plenty of times if need be.

[atemu1234]

Get your DM to approve the Sacrifice variant rules from BOVD and use Dark Craft XP and GP.

[Extra Anchovies]

Get your DM to approve the Sacrifice variant rules from BOVD and use Dark Craft XP and GP.

Oooh, I like. Do characters have to be evil to benefit from sacrifices, or would a neutral character who leaned towards evil (but wasn't quite bad enough to be truly Evil) be able to acquire Dark Craft XP/GP? Either way, it fits with the fluff: sacrifice someone to deprive them of life, then animate the corpse to deprive them of death :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

I'd suggest Contemplative for the remaining levels, maybe adding in Divine Oracle for Evasion in armor if you can get the Skill Focus feat from Frog God's Fane.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd suggest Contemplative for the remaining levels, maybe adding in Divine Oracle for Evasion in armor if you can get the Skill Focus feat from Frog God's Fane.

Maybe 2 levels of Contemplative for Slippery Mind and 2 levels of Divine Oracle for armored evasion? They're both poor BAB, but thanks to Divine Power that doesn't matter. Two extra domains doesn't hurt, either.

[atemu1234]

Oooh, I like. Do characters have to be evil to benefit from sacrifices, or would a neutral character who leaned towards evil (but wasn't quite bad enough to be truly Evil) be able to acquire Dark Craft XP/GP? Either way, it fits with the fluff: sacrifice someone to deprive them of life, then animate the corpse to deprive them of death :smallbiggrin:

One of the jokes with the system is someone can be good and sacrifice a good creature by RAW, so yes, yes a neutral PC can, as far as I know.

[Jack_Simth]

Hm. Holy Star, what's that one...

"+10 circumstance bonus to AC"

Christ.

Not sure how I'd justify a follower of Mystra taking the Undeath and Deathbound domains, though. May have to pass on that spell, sadly. So very sadly. Christ. +10 circumstance to AC. Circumstance. What.

*regains composure* Anyways. Troll-Blooded does look like a really nice choice, even with the feat tax. I'll have to see if the DM allows regional feats.

Delay Death, I think, is just way too much cheese for whatever table I'll end up at (don't have a solid group formed yet). It's only a third-level spell, so I would be able to cast it Extended plenty of times if need be.

Hmm. That's interesting - you're looking at the original source ones, not the Spell Compendium versions. Among other things, the Spell Compendium version of Holy Star is slightly more sane: +6 Circumstance to AC, and it only lasts a flat three rounds. Delay Death changed noticably - went from standard action 3rd level touch to Immediate action close range (duration may have also changed).

...

And that's REALLY interesting. You don't blink at what amounts to near-total immunity to damage from the combination of Regeneration (Troll Blooded, as that turns all non-acid and non-fire damage to nonlethal damage) + Immunity to the things that deal lethal damage (Energy Immunity Fire and Acid) + Immunity to nonlethal (which you get from Bone Knight), but you balk at Delay Death. Huh. For that matter, most of that immunity to damage combination is Ex, which means you could persist an Antimagic Field and call it a day (other than Orb spells and the like, anyway).


Edit: Oh yes, and you might want to consider persisting a few useful party buffs - Mass Lesser Vigor, Mass Vigor, Vigorous Circle (Spell Compendium) to give the entire party fast healing; Recitation (Spell Compendium) to give the party a nice luck bonus to attack/saves/AC; Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium... noticing a pattern?) to give the party extra attacks, extra attack, and extra damage; (Un)Holy Aura for the saves and AC for the party (plus immunity to possession and mind control, and a nice little debuff for people who attack you).

[Extra Anchovies]

Hmm. That's interesting - you're looking at the original source ones, not the Spell Compendium versions. Among other things, the Spell Compendium version of Holy Star is slightly more sane: +6 Circumstance to AC, and it only lasts a flat three rounds. Delay Death changed noticably - went from standard action 3rd level touch to Immediate action close range (duration may have also changed).

Oh, okay. I'm good at finding out-of-date spell descriptions. Took me a while to become aware of the SC version of Spell Engine, I just kept looking up the MoF version by accident.


And that's REALLY interesting. You don't blink at what amounts to near-total immunity to damage from the combination of Regeneration (Troll Blooded, as that turns all non-acid and non-fire damage to nonlethal damage) + Immunity to the things that deal lethal damage (Energy Immunity Fire and Acid) + Immunity to nonlethal (which you get from Bone Knight), but you balk at Delay Death. Huh. For that matter, most of that immunity to damage combination is Ex, which means you could persist an Antimagic Field and call it a day (other than Orb spells and the like, anyway).

I think it's unappealing to me because it's a much more direct piece of "bye-bye death from damage" cheese. It takes some legitimate investment into the build for Troll-Blooded (two feats), so it feels less cheesy. I have an odd way of determining whether I think something is too cheesy or not.

ETA:

Edit: Oh yes, and you might want to consider persisting a few useful party buffs - Mass Lesser Vigor, Mass Vigor, Vigorous Circle (Spell Compendium) to give the entire party fast healing; Recitation (Spell Compendium) to give the party a nice luck bonus to attack/saves/AC; Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell Compendium... noticing a pattern?) to give the party extra attacks, extra attack, and extra damage; (Un)Holy Aura for the saves and AC for the party (plus immunity to possession and mind control, and a nice little debuff for people who attack you).

That's a good point. Giving myself fast healing isn't quite as good as giving it to everyone, after all. And Recitation is nice, because luck bonuses aren't too common. Do you know how that "if they worship the same deity" works if a cleric is dedicated to an alignment or a cause?

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. Now that I think about it, the Cleric list is a bit lacking in some key spells. Maybe I should take the Divine Magician ACF, dropping the Deathbound domain? I could do as follows:
1st:
2nd: Command Undead
3rd: Undead Lieutenant
4th:
5th: Revive Undead
6th: Awaken Undead
7th:
8th:
9th: Plague of Undead

Is this a good idea? Plague of Undead, Command Undead, and Undead Lieutenant are the main reasons I'd do this. Are they worth losing the Deathbound domain's granted power? (Also, is there some link to the errata in which the Deathbound granted power was changed? I looked at the Spell Compendium errata but it didn't mention the domain)

[Jack_Simth]

That's a good point. Giving myself fast healing isn't quite as good as giving it to everyone, after all. And Recitation is nice, because luck bonuses aren't too common. Do you know how that "if they worship the same deity" works if a cleric is dedicated to an alignment or a cause?
Presumably, they'd need the same cause.

[Extra Anchovies]

Presumably, they'd need the same cause.

Makes sense.

On the topic of Persisting, though: What about Sign, from the Miniatures Handbook? Automatic 20 on all my initiative checks means I can fairly safely dump Dexterity as long as I pick up Gloves of Dexterity and/or a Belt of Magnificence; since Bonecraft Armor can't also be mithral, max dex for bonecraft full plate is only +1. Knowing the full initiative order doesn't hurt, either.

[Jack_Simth]

Makes sense.

On the topic of Persisting, though: What about Sign, from the Miniatures Handbook? Automatic 20 on all my initiative checks means I can fairly safely dump Dexterity as long as I pick up Gloves of Dexterity and/or a Belt of Magnificence; since Bonecraft Armor can't also be mithral, max dex for bonecraft full plate is only +1. Knowing the full initiative order doesn't hurt, either.
If you're using the Miniatures Handbook version, then yes, it's very useful.
However, theoretically the Spell Compendium version supercedes it, and that one is just a +4 to initiative and is discharged (and thus not eligible for persisting).