Warlock invalidating my dungeons.

[Iron Angel]

My dungeons have a lot of obstacles in them, such as chasms, pits, locked doors, mechanisms that require levers, puzzles, and other such impeding elements. The thing is, we have a warlock in the party who can invalidate all of it with one ability.

Teleporting 20 feet, with the ability to take someone with him, an infinite number of times.

He can use this ability to just teleport the party past any obstacles. This is really choking out my dungeon design and I con only think of 4 solutions.

1: Make the obstacles 25+ feet long so he can't teleport through them. This isn't really plausible fluffwise as far as doors are concerned, and as for things like pits or chasms, only serves to make them extremely difficult to cross for everyone else.

2: Fill the place with antimagic fields so he can't teleport. This feels cheap and, once again, extremely difficult to justify.

3: Stop using obstacles and have the dungeon be one long hallway filled with monsters. This is an awful, awful solution.

4: Nerf the ability manually, which feels cheap and feels like I'm just taking someone's toys and breaking them because they are having too much fun.

He's very amicable about it and even offered to switch it out, but I told him not to worry about it, play his character however he likes and I'll have to work around it. The problem is, I can;t think of any way around it!

[Threadnaught]

Have a dungeon have more corners, build traps to alert guards or near a guard's patrol, have a guard convince the PCs to move toward the trap, Dimensional Lock is a more powerful Spell, but it locks down Teleportation without completely shutting down Casters. Make Traps less obvious, or give them a delayed activation elsewhere in the dungeon, like a 100 foot hallway with a 4 round activation trap, which shoots poison darts all down the corridor.

[J-H]

And here I'd thought you were going to talk about always-on flight, Darkvision, and at-will Shatter.

1) If he doesn't have trap-finding, he's going to have a hard time figuring out that an area is trapped before he teleports onto it.

2) Consider having Permanencied Walls of Force linked to some puzzles that only go down when the puzzle is solved (ie, plot doors).

3) Add time pressure. It takes him 2 rounds per round trip, right? That's 6-10 rounds (depending on party size) if under fire.

[Fax Celestis]

What's he using to teleport? Flee the scene? If that's the case, then anything that shuts down dimension door shuts it down too.

You could try having your dungeon keeper or whatever blanket the place in dimensional lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm), forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), divert teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/divertTeleport.htm), or anticipate teleport spells. [Teleportation] effects move through the Astral plane, so maybe populating the area with githyanki?

[nedz]

Since he has to be 6th level to take Flee the Scene the party has probably outgrown your challenges.

Any caster could do this all day with the Dimensional Jaunt Reserve feat, though probably only from 9th.

Warlocks are really good at Infiltration — this is his character's Shtick.

[OldTrees1]

Add enemies that take advantage of the obstacles. Then the Warlock's ability ceases to bypass the encounter and instead helps the party reach the encounter.

[Asrrin]

Have the walls block teleportation effects (like in Tomb of Horrors) so that his ability is reduced to LoS only, but only while in the dungeon. It still gives him tactical teleportation, doesn't nerf the actual ability so he can use it to full effect everywhere else, and is a plausible defense that most dungeon owners would erect to keep out unwanted adventurers.

[Larrx]

Does the party have a way to see what's on the other side of doors? If not, it would probably only take a single ambush/trap to convince them that teleporting only 2 members of the party into potential danger might not be wise. They're essential BFCing themselves at that point. If they're carrying light sources to see, then a dark room behind a locked door serves the same purpose. Nedz is right though, you have to phase out certain types of challenges as the party advances in level.

[Extra Anchovies]

Teleporting 20 feet, with the ability to take someone with him, an infinite number of times.

Only one person at a time? Give him a chicken, a fox, and some corn :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, traps and windy passages are both good. But then, this is at the level where Wizards can cast Fly, so you shouldn't really expect chasms to still be much of an issue.

[nedz]

OK, some basic ideas

False doors, with obvious traps, which back onto a wall.
Illusionary features: Doors, Walls, Floors.
Complexes of room where the opponent come and go.
Old warehouse filled with junk, and stealthy foes.
Water filled rooms.
Complex architecture — behind the door is a stairway / cupboard full of junk /


More complex ideas


Rooms linked by portals/teleportation circles.
Complexes which are non-euclidean, which means that Dim Door doesn't go in a straight line.
Complex set on an elemental plane so you might not want to Dim Door blind.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's a snap! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Am7oKBD3PU) (don't let your kids watch or overhear that)

[Tvtyrant]

Depending on the frequency I would give the Warlock some sort of Nemesis (http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld42_nemesis.jpg)that tracks him by teleportation. If it just a few times a dungeon make your traps more difficult, like doors with Invisible Stalkers behind them so when they teleport in they get ambushed.

[Extra Anchovies]

Depending on the frequency I would give the Warlock some sort of Nemesis (http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld42_nemesis.jpg)that tracks him by teleportation. If it just a few times a dungeon make your traps more difficult, like doors with Invisible Stalkers behind them so when they teleport in they get ambushed.

That's... quite the eldritch abomination. What's the source on that bad boy? Does it have stats?

[Tvtyrant]

That's... quite the eldritch abomination. What's the source on that bad boy? Does it have stats?

It's a magic card called Nemesis of Reason. No stats (unless you make some) but I love how it looks and it makes for a great hunter-beast.

Also it has great description text.
http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ftl/ftl40_quote.jpg

[Iron Angel]

Depending on the frequency I would give the Warlock some sort of Nemesis (http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld42_nemesis.jpg)that tracks him by teleportation. If it just a few times a dungeon make your traps more difficult, like doors with Invisible Stalkers behind them so when they teleport in they get ambushed.

Ooooh, I REALLY like this idea, and since its a warlock, it would even make sense. It could be the demon looking to reclaim his soul.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's a magic card called Nemesis of Reason. No stats (unless you make some) but I love how it looks and it makes for a great hunter-beast.

Also it has great description text.
http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ftl/ftl40_quote.jpg

Oooh, that is so cool. I'm going to have to give it some vestigial stats (a few different attacks, and a method to banish it temporarily but not kill it), it could make for a great recurring enemy.

[Xaktsaroth]

Since teleporting typically means movement through Etheral Plane, and Flee the Scene is instantious, it would be quite jarring for the warlock if that thing was in the hallway on the etheral plane, and the second the warlock tp'ed into it's sight, you actually describe the hall as being wispy and etheral and such, with this monster staring him down.

F҉̲̤̬̖͚̠̺̳͍o̙̠̭͇u͙̙̻̝̞̖̰̹ͅǹ͙ḍ͎̫̗͟ ̸̙͙͍ͅy̳̟̪̕o͏̀͏̫̰̬̼̘̲̫̙̖u̴̩̖̲͖͉̺̖͔̟͠!̵̴̣̗̝̥̜̩̤


It would make the warlock think twice about using the ability. :P

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Stack your obstacles. You teleport over the pit, but there's an alarm trap on the edge. And if you teleport past that, there's another pit. So it's 3 separate obstacles that take up 30' of space. Rather than trapping a doorway with 30 traps, trap the doorway with 10, the 10' in front of the door with 10 and the 10' behind the door with 10. Arrange things vertically to restrict LoS.

[KillianHawkeye]

Since teleporting typically means movement through Etheral Plane, and Flee the Scene is instantious, it would be quite jarring for the warlock if that thing was in the hallway on the etheral plane, and the second the warlock tp'ed into it's sight, you actually describe the hall as being wispy and etheral and such, with this monster staring him down.

F҉̲̤̬̖͚̠̺̳͍o̙̠̭͇u͙̙̻̝̞̖̰̹ͅǹ͙ḍ͎̫̗͟ ̸̙͙͍ͅy̳̟̪̕o͏̀͏̫̰̬̼̘̲̫̙̖u̴̩̖̲͖͉̺̖͔̟͠!̵̴̣̗̝̥̜̩̤


It would make the warlock think twice about using the ability. :P

Teleportation is travel through the astral plane, not the ethereal plane.

[VoxRationis]

Don't completely shut it down. Take a page out of Legend of Zelda and plan the dungeon around the assumption that this is not only helpful, but necessary. Of course, shut it down in other ways...

[Fax Celestis]

Teleportation is travel through the astral plane, not the ethereal plane.

It's sparse, but stuff does live in the astral.

[Segev]

If he's teleporting into an area sight unseen, put traps there. Put monsters there. When the party is split while he's transporting them, ambush half of them with a full-strength encounter.

[Psyren]

Just use the clause of teleportation that says strong physical or magical energies interfere with it. While it's part of the teleport spell itself, it could RAW be applied to all spells with the descriptor and allow you all kinds of merry havoc.

[Shinken]

Have him teleport into a trap (say, a pit with poisoned spikes) once or twice and he'll be a lot less trigger happy when it comes to teleport.
Have him be grappled as soon as he teleports into an area (say, by a giant octopus).

[Red Fel]

It's sparse, but stuff does live in the astral.

This. How hard would it be to simply ask him to roll d% every time he teleports? Don't tell him why, just tell him to roll and tell you the result.

On a roll of 1, he runs into something. Come up with a table. Roll d% to see what comes up. On a roll of 91-100, it completely ignores him. So he only actually has a .9% chance of actually running into something. On a 1, give him something fun like an Astral Stalker (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82964.jpg).

[Jack_Simth]

If he's teleporting into an area sight unseen, put traps there. Put monsters there. When the party is split while he's transporting them, ambush half of them with a full-strength encounter.
Yes, this is really one of the simplest and most natural ways to pull it off. There's a contingent of [monsters] waiting in the barracks. If they don't do any investigation to find out what's on the other side of the door before they get a weak caster-ish thing and the first person carried... well, you're dropping a squishy or two right into enemy melee.

[Nerd-o-rama]

He's teleporting through doors.

Without scouting what's on the other side of them first.

And splitting the party while doing so.

This has at least one fairly obvious solution. Actually, there's about five books of them, but the best one is probably "Wizard with Improved Initiative and Dimensional Anchor behind the door". Or even "Wizard with Clairvoyance and Dimensional Anchor".

Either that or just up your dungeon design to include traps and hazards other than locked doors and pitfalls.

[Psyren]

Either that or just up your dungeon design to include traps and hazards other than locked doors and pitfalls.

Or even both.

"As you materialize on the other side of the door, you hear a soft *click.* You feel the tile under your left boot depresses slightly. What's your flat-footed AC?"

[Iron Angel]

the only problem with putting things like traps or monsters he teleports into is that he can just teleport back out again.

But I managed to get a solution going. In our last campaign, there was a devil named Azodel. He was really not very nice. Our previous characters killed him eventually.

This is taking part in the same world, so I changed things up. Everyone THOUGHT Azodel died but what he really did was he split his soul to avoid death. It split into fragments, and the warlock in question has a part of that soul. Azodel is trying to consolidate his soul again so he can reform, but he's missing a piece- The piece in our warlock. He's searching for it constantly but doesn't know where the warlock is exactly. But each time the warlock draws on that piece of Azodel to manifest power, Azodel feels it. Small things are basically unnoticeable or don't give him any indication of where he is. But big things send out a stronger impulse. One or two won't give Azodel much clue as to where the fragment is, but repeated and sustained use of large effects will eventually put Azodel on the right trail.

The flipside is that the warlock can also feel Azodel. He can sense if Azodel is starting to catch on to where he is, and can adjust his behavior accordlingly. He can even tell if Azodel has his location pinpointed and should get far away before he catches up.

Azodel is currently incorporeal and exists as merely an essence in the ethereal plane, but if he finds the last fragment of his soul, he will merge with it, and erupt from the warlock reborn, effectively killing the warlock in an impressive fountain of gore as the devil's enormous form bursts forth.

The player actually really likes this idea as it fits very well with his character and opens up interesting character development opportunities for him.

[Psyren]

the only problem with putting things like traps or monsters he teleports into is that he can just teleport back out again.

Not until next round, and by then he is grappled/hit or the trap has gone off.


The flipside is that the warlock can also feel Azodel. He can sense if Azodel is starting to catch on to where he is, and can adjust his behavior accordlingly. He can even tell if Azodel has his location pinpointed and should get far away before he catches up.

Azodel is currently incorporeal and exists as merely an essence in the ethereal plane, but if he finds the last fragment of his soul, he will merge with it, and erupt from the warlock reborn, effectively killing the warlock in an impressive fountain of gore as the devil's enormous form bursts forth.

The player actually really likes this idea as it fits very well with his character and opens up interesting character development opportunities for him.

So.... if he teleports too much the devil finds him? Something like that?

[Incorrect]

I recall the existence of something called "Purple Mist" or something similar?
A heavy mist that blocks all teleportation, and probably a number of other things. I believe that it occurs "naturally", so you could easily make a dungeon filled with the stuff.

Monster behind the challenging door:
He teleports through it. Monster attacks him. He teleports back. And then what?
In order to continue they still have to kill the monster, and to have better odds they need to beat the challenging door so they can attack the monster all at once.

But really, he teleports blind. Teach him why you should never teleport blind.

[gooddragon1]

the only problem with putting things like traps or monsters he teleports into is that he can just teleport back out again.

But I managed to get a solution going. In our last campaign, there was a devil named Azodel. He was really not very nice. Our previous characters killed him eventually.

This is taking part in the same world, so I changed things up. Everyone THOUGHT Azodel died but what he really did was he split his soul to avoid death. It split into fragments, and the warlock in question has a part of that soul. Azodel is trying to consolidate his soul again so he can reform, but he's missing a piece- The piece in our warlock. He's searching for it constantly but doesn't know where the warlock is exactly. But each time the warlock draws on that piece of Azodel to manifest power, Azodel feels it. Small things are basically unnoticeable or don't give him any indication of where he is. But big things send out a stronger impulse. One or two won't give Azodel much clue as to where the fragment is, but repeated and sustained use of large effects will eventually put Azodel on the right trail.

The flipside is that the warlock can also feel Azodel. He can sense if Azodel is starting to catch on to where he is, and can adjust his behavior accordlingly. He can even tell if Azodel has his location pinpointed and should get far away before he catches up.

Azodel is currently incorporeal and exists as merely an essence in the ethereal plane, but if he finds the last fragment of his soul, he will merge with it, and erupt from the warlock reborn, effectively killing the warlock in an impressive fountain of gore as the devil's enormous form bursts forth.

The player actually really likes this idea as it fits very well with his character and opens up interesting character development opportunities for him.

Yes, he can teleport out of the traps (well most of the time). However, if he starts taking some nasty damage from them he might be a little more hesitant to just teleport anywhere in the dungeon. Particularly if it's ability damage (from poison or other sources) since clerics don't prepare every slot as lesser restoration. If you want to do something particularly nasty you can make it ability burn (not much, but it won't go away with healing and it's not a thing with prevalent immunities). I'd say a trap with 1d2+1 ability burn of ... strength ought to do the trick. Won't necessarily kill him but he'll have a harder time holding his gear.

[Arbane]

It's a snap! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Am7oKBD3PU) (don't let your kids watch or overhear that)

Well, that escalated quickly.... :smalleek:


Don't completely shut it down. Take a page out of Legend of Zelda and plan the dungeon around the assumption that this is not only helpful, but necessary. Of course, shut it down in other ways...

Now you're thinking with portals!
(I'd recommend against making teleporting essential, as that means if they die, the rest of the party is screwed - but making it a useful shortcut is just fine.)


If he's teleporting into an area sight unseen, put traps there. Put monsters there. When the party is split while he's transporting them, ambush half of them with a full-strength encounter.

The simplest, and least grudge-like solution. If they teleport next to an ogre, and it wins the init roll, it'll get in at least one good whack before they can teleport away.

[Harlot]

The spell 'Flee the Scene' is listed to have a verbal component. So if if you have 'silence' cast at an area or on a glyph of warding, or some homebrew trap of sorts, he cannot cast that spell at all. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm
You could make an entire area of the dungeon magically silent. That'd be cool and eerie.

(Actually you could make an opponent cast the spell on an item in the warlocks possession such as his scepter or dagger, so that the spell will move with him.)

Or use the necromancy 'Symbol of XXX' for traps - they have a 60ft. radius, so they'll hit the Warlock before he can bypass them.
http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=symbol%20of

Or have him teleport into an explosive rune field http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/explosive-rune-field--2924/

Or have exploding spikes or exploding disks planted 10 feet apart down a looong corridor, interspersed with pits, so he'll teleport into one regardless of distance.

Also, sadly, anything that negates magic, negates warlocks. Using it is kind of uncool, but very effective.

EDIT. Also found these:
Zone of respite [abjur] (SpC 244) for 1 min./level in a 20 ft. radius emanation prevents extradimensional movement and summoning into the area.
Forbiddance [abjur] (PH 232) permanently prevents extradimensional movement into or out of an area.

[SinsI]

I'd say place some Forbiddance cubes in Leon's teeth formation (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=541). It's relatively cheap, permanent, has huge area and protects not only from teleport, but from opposing alignments as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's a snap! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Am7oKBD3PU) (don't let your kids watch or overhear that)

Well, that escalated quickly.... :smalleek:

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm)

A railing, a wire mesh, a metal stairway, anything could be made permanently invisible and if he happens to teleport into it, he's stuck that way. If he tries to teleport off of it, have him make a Concentration check, and teleport into something even worse.

Additionally, Permanent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm) can be used to hide obstacles, make it appear as though there are obstacles where there aren't any (and make the real obstacles invisible), or make it look like there's a room and a floor where there's actually a deep pit with the bottom covered in diseased stakes and rat swarms. You could also have it hiding a square hole in the floor exactly large enough for a Gelatinous Cube (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) to fit in, so anyone who steps/teleports onto it will automatically be engulfed as though they'd bumped into it.

[Arbane]

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm)

A railing, a wire mesh, a metal stairway, anything could be made permanently invisible and if he happens to teleport into it, he's stuck that way. If he tries to teleport off of it, have him make a Concentration check, and teleport into something even worse.


It works like Dimension Door, right? That one says:

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

(Buncha wimps. back in MY day, teleporting into something solid was INSTANT DEATH, no save... But this will still suck, and could put them in a worse position, obviously.)

[Iron Angel]

Well, not JUST the teleporting. Other stuff, specifically Invocations. I won't punish him for combat use of the magic.

[Marlowe]

The spell 'Flee the Scene' is listed to have a verbal component. So if if you have 'silence' cast at an area or on a glyph of warding, or some homebrew trap of sorts, he cannot cast that spell at all. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm
You could make an entire area of the dungeon magically silent. That'd be cool and eerie.
. According to the FAQ, no Warlock Invocation has a Verbal Component.

No, not even the ones that have names like "Word of [something]" or "[something] utterance"

[Dalebert]

Only one person at a time? Give him a chicken, a fox, and some corn :smallbiggrin:

I seriously LOLed.


Nemesis (http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld42_nemesis.jpg)

That think looks kind of goofy to me, as in I actually expect it to sound like Disney's Goofy.


the only problem with putting things like traps or monsters he teleports into is that he can just teleport back out again.

SLAs do require concentration checks to avoid AoO and can potentially be interrupted if someone reserves an action to do so. That may come into play when he's teleporting blind into a threat. It could at least mean a 2nd attack before he can teleport out, and that's assuming there's just one creature on the otherside. Seems like there are all kinds of things that could mean a bad day from teleporting blind.


Everyone THOUGHT Azodel died but what he really did was he split his soul to avoid death. It split into fragments, and the warlock in question has a part of that soul.

So the warlock is Harry Potter?


According to the FAQ, no Warlock Invocation has a Verbal Component.
No, not even the ones that have names like "Word of [something]" or "[something] utterance"

I know that's the case generally, but nevermind the title. Even the ones where the description of the power specifically says it's being activated by the warlock speaking a word?


Baleful Utterance:Speak word of the Dark Speech and shatter objects as the shatterspell.

[HammeredWharf]

I know that's the case generally, but nevermind the title. Even the ones where the description of the power specifically says it's being activated by the warlock speaking a word?

The FAQ isn't entirely official and has some contentious points, so I'd say it's wrong in this case. Generally SLAs have no verbal components, but the ones that explicitly mention speaking wouldn't work in Silence.

[Iron Angel]

So the warlock is Harry Potter?

If I'm not mistaken Voldemort split his soul long befor ehis death. This was a last ditch thing by Azodel, with a fragment of his soul ending up somewhere he did not intend as a result.

I would consider it more like Lord of the Rings, where the Warlock is Frodo, the Ring is the soul fragment, and Azodel is Sauron. Azodel can't actually do anything because he's incorporeal- He needs that fragment back. But he doesn't know where it is. But each time its used, he gets a faint notion of its location. Except there is no Mount Doom to chuck the ring into- The warlock carries this burden to his grave.

And, according to Warlock lore, this is actually exactly how the class powers work so I'm not even stretching it very far.

[Psyren]

The FAQ isn't entirely official and has some contentious points, so I'd say it's wrong in this case. Generally SLAs have no verbal components, but the ones that explicitly mention speaking wouldn't work in Silence.

Just because you are fluffed as saying something during the invocation though, doesn't mean it has to be heard. Much like Truenamers can successfully Utter through Silence.

So the Warlock moves his lips, nothing comes out, but the SLA works anyway, because that's what SLAs do unless specifically stated otherwise.


Yes, he can teleport out of the traps (well most of the time).

I'm confused - I don't see what good being able to teleport away will do once the trap has already gone off. You teleport onto a pressure plate and a series of poison darts pepper your flat-footed AC; even if you leave the room, you've already been pincushioned and poisoned by that point, so you're not really "escaping the trap." It's already done its job.

What's more, like dimension door he gives up the remainder of his actions upon arriving; he can't even move out of that square, in case there are enemies in the room who spot him and begin firing arrows.

Basically its very easy to make Nightcrawler-ing around the dungeon by yourself a very bad idea.

[Harlot]

According to the FAQ, no Warlock Invocation has a Verbal Component.

No, not even the ones that have names like "Word of [something]" or "[something] utterance"

OK. Then go straight for SYMBOL OF DEATH! That'll teach him...

OR have him teleport into a patch of sovereign glue. Because ... SOVEREIGN GLUE!

[Segev]

While having an interesting plot hook is always good, be sure it's interesting in its own right, without the "punish too much teleporting" desire, because it will quickly feel like the same sort of annoying stunt as simply putting Dimension Locks everywhere.

The best ways will be to highlight why suddenly appearing in unscouted terrain is not the wisest of plans. Even if he teleports out next round, landing in a trap still causes damage and pain. As does landing in the middle of five surprised goblins. Some will make their initiatives before he does and get attacks off. And how well does his teleport work if grappled? (Remember, too, that Flee the Scene leaves an illusion behind, so they'll keep attacking an illusion for an extra round, in case it's important.)

[Psyren]

And how well does his teleport work if grappled? (Remember, too, that Flee the Scene leaves an illusion behind, so they'll keep attacking an illusion for an extra round, in case it's important.)

He can 'port out of a grapple just like he could with normal dimension door, however since it is a SLA he will have to make a concentration check to escape.

(His grappler will auto-disbelieve the image left behind since it will be intangible.)

[Segev]

He can 'port out of a grapple just like he could with normal dimension door, however since it is a SLA he will have to make a concentration check to escape.That concentration check could be rather difficult, depending on the grappler.


(His grappler will auto-disbelieve the image left behind since it will be intangible.)

True; I was not meaning to connect grapple to it. Regardless, I can't imagine it being TOO useful, as it only lasts 1 round, but I thought I'd point it out in case somebody had a clever use for it.

[Dalebert]

Just because you are fluffed as saying something during the invocation though, doesn't mean it has to be heard. Much like Truenamers can successfully Utter through Silence.

So the Warlock moves his lips, nothing comes out, but the SLA works anyway, because that's what SLAs do unless specifically stated otherwise.

I suppose I can buy that explanation. It should be quickly noted this is irrelevant to Flee the Scene which clearly does not have a verbal component. It raises another question though. Assuming they're not in a silence field, can they possibly be heard speaking the word? I guess I'm asking just how "fluff" is it?

[Harlot]

He can 'port out of a grapple just like he could with normal dimension door, however since it is a SLA he will have to make a concentration check to escape.)
Yeah. One way to play it is messing with the concentration while he cast the spell. Grappled is a plus 20
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm

EDIT: Tanglefoot bags (entagled) forces a concentration check of 15. I really like those. I seem to recall that there's also something called a tanglefoot patch which may be useable for traps...

[Segev]

How about tanglefoot bags. Could the hold him rooted to the spot or can he just teleport out of it?

He could just teleport out.

[Psyren]

How about tanglefoot bags. Could the hold him rooted to the spot or can he just teleport out of it?

He can teleport out of it, but those force a concentration check too.

[Harlot]

He could just teleport out.
But it would force a concentration check, right?
Ha, Ninja'ed.

[Psyren]

A trap can simply launch the bag too. Many people forget that traps can make ranged attacks, it does not always have to be a reflex save. A ranged attack from a trap can be pretty nasty because, unless you have Uncanny Dodge, you're almost always flat-footed.

[Wacky89]

I recall the existence of something called "Purple Mist" or something similar?
A heavy mist that blocks all teleportation, and probably a number of other things. I believe that it occurs "naturally", so you could easily make a dungeon filled with the stuff.

Monster behind the challenging door:
He teleports through it. Monster attacks him. He teleports back. And then what?
In order to continue they still have to kill the monster, and to have better odds they need to beat the challenging door so they can attack the monster all at once.

But really, he teleports blind. Teach him why you should never teleport blind.

you sir are correct.
Anchor Mist
Dungeonscape, p.140
if you use any form of teleportation you take 10d6 dmg save for half (Fort DC 23)
It even stays in place at all times, even a hurricane wouldnt move it.

[illyahr]

Well, not JUST the teleporting. Other stuff, specifically Invocations. I won't punish him for combat use of the magic.

I like this idea. You could keep a running score of how aware the enemy is. Powerful invocations are worth more, but repeated use of lesser invocations add up. Have the awareness degrade over time and as he moves around. Have something bad happen when the awareness gets too high. This doesn't put restrictions on his abilities but it does make him think about how he's using them a little more.

[Dalebert]

I recall the existence of something called "Purple Mist" or something similar?
A heavy mist that blocks all teleportation, and probably a number of other things. I believe that it occurs "naturally", so you could easily make a dungeon filled with the stuff.

That might seem a little heavy-handed, but I could see it happening once in that manner and maybe occasionally in parts of dungeons. Be careful that you're not punishing him for merely using the power in this manner, but it definitely calls for more caution in its use. If blind teleporting sometimes results in something really bad (and it should, naturally), then he will hopefully learn to use it more cautiously and not as a cheap and easy way around all challenges.

I'm actually in favor of there existing some reasonably accessible ways to block teleportation. It shouldn't be too easy or cheap, of course, not to the point of making TP all but useless, but I think it should maybe be at least as accessible as TP itself.

For instance, it would be nice if there were some naturally-occuring substance that could be incorporated into building materials to make them disrupt TP. If a straight line between you and your destination goes through it, you stop just short of the wall. The stuph should be rare and expensive enough that it's not used casually but the wealthy would likely have access to it at least, for instance, to build the walls around their personal quarters and maybe treasure room. I'm not sure where to place that figure.

There ought to be spells (and maybe there are) that aren't too high of a level that can be made permanent at not too high of a cost to place impediments for TP. There could even be creatures that disrupt TP in a certain radius around them but there should be setbacks that make it somewhat impractical to deal with these creatures. They're either hard to breed or maybe very dangerous to try to keep. Things like that.

[geekintheground]

the only problem with putting things like traps or monsters he teleports into is that he can just teleport back out again.

But I managed to get a solution going. In our last campaign, there was a devil named Azodel. He was really not very nice. Our previous characters killed him eventually.

This is taking part in the same world, so I changed things up. Everyone THOUGHT Azodel died but what he really did was he split his soul to avoid death. It split into fragments, and the warlock in question has a part of that soul. Azodel is trying to consolidate his soul again so he can reform, but he's missing a piece- The piece in our warlock. He's searching for it constantly but doesn't know where the warlock is exactly. But each time the warlock draws on that piece of Azodel to manifest power, Azodel feels it. Small things are basically unnoticeable or don't give him any indication of where he is. But big things send out a stronger impulse. One or two won't give Azodel much clue as to where the fragment is, but repeated and sustained use of large effects will eventually put Azodel on the right trail.

The flipside is that the warlock can also feel Azodel. He can sense if Azodel is starting to catch on to where he is, and can adjust his behavior accordlingly. He can even tell if Azodel has his location pinpointed and should get far away before he catches up.

Azodel is currently incorporeal and exists as merely an essence in the ethereal plane, but if he finds the last fragment of his soul, he will merge with it, and erupt from the warlock reborn, effectively killing the warlock in an impressive fountain of gore as the devil's enormous form bursts forth.

The player actually really likes this idea as it fits very well with his character and opens up interesting character development opportunities for him.

can i just say, i REALLY like this? do you mind if i use it?

[ace rooster]

He can 'port out of a grapple just like he could with normal dimension door, however since it is a SLA he will have to make a concentration check to escape.

(His grappler will auto-disbelieve the image left behind since it will be intangible.)

Actually he can't. Warlock invocations explicitly all have a somatic component, and you cannot use spells (including spell like abilities I would assume, spell like abilities are not covered in the options for grapplers) with somatic components at all while grappling. Normal casters do not have this problem as DD does not have a somatic component for this reason. They just have to make a concentration check. I have never looked at building a warlock, so don't know if there are any ways to still their invocations, but it is worth finding out if he has a way.

Unless he has freedom of movement or a meaty grapple check a black tentacles trap will shut a warlock down hard (No save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Just an opposed grapple check).

[nedz]

Actually he can't. Warlock invocations explicitly all have a somatic component, and you cannot use spells (including spell like abilities I would assume, spell like abilities are not covered in the options for grapplers) with somatic components at all while grappling. Normal casters do not have this problem as DD does not have a somatic component for this reason. They just have to make a concentration check. I have never looked at building a warlock, so don't know if there are any ways to still their invocations, but it is worth finding out if he has a way.

Unless he has freedom of movement or a meaty grapple check a black tentacles trap will shut a warlock down hard (No save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Just an opposed grapple check).

The traditional approach is to take Sudden Still Spell which gets you out of a grapple. Now spending a feat to do this is expensive and it's also only once per day, but how many times a day do you get Grappled ?

[Psyren]

Actually he can't. Warlock invocations explicitly all have a somatic component, and you cannot use spells (including spell like abilities I would assume, spell like abilities are not covered in the options for grapplers) with somatic components at all while grappling.

I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."

[ace rooster]

The traditional approach is to take Sudden Still Spell which gets you out of a grapple. Now spending a feat to do this is expensive and it's also only once per day, but how many times a day do you get Grappled ?

For smart foes who know a little about casters grappling is a pretty standard tactic (at least it should be). An unarmed caster doesn't even threaten, so improved grapple is not required. Teleporting into rooms with no intel and no support should probably make it happen more than once a day.

I'm not convinced that sudden still spell works on spell like abilities. They explicitly can use metamagic feats for spell like abilities, such as empower spell like ability, but still spell like ability does not exist.



I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."


The relevent part of the warlock class is



Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like arcane spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations, including eldritch blast, have a somatic component). A multiclass warlock still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from levels in other classes.

[KillianHawkeye]

I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."

What's the problem? Dimension Door has a verbal component, Flee the Scene has a somatic component.

[Darrin]

Cruel Tricks to Play On Good Teleporters


Use more walkways/bridges/catwalks over pits/chasms/lava that are too long to teleport across.
Pit trap with "stone floor" illusion cast over it.
The pit trap is on the ceiling this time. Right over a permanent reverse gravity effect.
20' wide room, invisible wall of fire along one side of it.
Hallucinatory terrain + wall of magma (Sandstorm). Lay the magma down horizontally as the floor. Yes, he can *bamf* right out of it, but he will remember that 5d6 + 2d6 damage for a very, very long time. Set up some old couches and coffee tables (immune to the fire damage, of course) in the room just for giggles.
Just a simple alarm spell. An enemy that knows you're coming and has a few rounds to prepare is an immensely different experience than blundering into an enemy that wasn't expecting you.
Glyphs! The basic glyph of warding offers two options: blast glyph is a generic zap trap that may make him a little more cautious, while spell glyph + dimensional anchor (3rd level if cast from the Portal domain) prevents him from teleporting for several minutes. Ghoul glyph (Spell Compendium) is only 2nd level and permanent until discharged, so a low-level caster can set up dozens if not hundreds of them beforehand if need be.
Symbols! Symbol of sleep, symbol of stunning, and symbol of weakness could shut him down or put him in a precarious position. Even better, they have a 60' range, so you could get the whole party if they are standing nearby. Symbol of pain or symbol of fear could be used to make some other important skill check harder.
Keys that radiate a dimensional anchor or antimagic field. Yes, he can *bamf* his companions past a door without the key, but you can put important keys, keyholes, buttons, or levers inside small chests or small compartments that he can't *bamf* into. A lock could have tumblers or pieces in it that are normally on the ethereal plane, so a dimensional anchor key forces the etheral parts to work in the physical world. Or they key causes an ethereal bridge above a lava pit to become solid. Make the AMF key the only way to get through a magical door or a passage filled with magical stone: the AMF turns off the magic, allowing the door to open or the passage to be clear.
Get rid of hallways/doors, connect the rooms of the dungeon with teleportation circles.
Put the entire dungeon under a dimensional anchor effect *unless* you have a "portkey" object. This allows the enemies to *bamf* around if they need to, but your Warlock will be shut down until he gets the portkey, and then he can use his powers normally. Start with a "limited use" portkey with 10 jumps for underlings, and then he can find the "gold portkey" after a boss fight. This way, you're only shutting him down temporarily, and if he gets theatrical about it, you can just say the enemies were just "playing smart" and you were not deliberately sandbagging his character, you just wanted to present the PCs a more strategic challenge.

[Psyren]

The relevent part of the warlock class is

Right, I get that, but that is a general rule. FtS could easily be a specific exception to that rule.

[nedz]

I suppose the issue I'm having is that Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) does not have a somatic component, and Flee the Scene is "like dimension door, but."

Let me finish that for you. :smallsmile:

Flee the Scene is like Dimension Door, but it's an SLA instead of a spell.


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

Warlock SLAs' (Invocations) do require a, minimal, somatic component though.

[nedz]

For smart foes who know a little about casters grappling is a pretty standard tactic (at least it should be). An unarmed caster doesn't even threaten, so improved grapple is not required. Teleporting into rooms with no intel and no support should probably make it happen more than once a day.
And smart casters are aware of the risk, but then they probably don't Teleporting into rooms with no intel.

I'm not convinced that sudden still spell works on spell like abilities. They explicitly can use metamagic feats for spell like abilities, such as empower spell like ability, but still spell like ability does not exist.
Warlocks can use any Metamagic feat which doesn't modify the level of the spell, so things like Invisible Spell would be fine. Sudden feats also do not modify the spell level and are called out specifically as being allowed in CArc p71

[Psyren]

Ooh, I didn't know that. Sudden Metamagics are slightly less bad now.

And amusingly, they apply to Utterances. One more miniscule tool for poor Zaq's toolbelt :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Well I think it's a better idea for a Warlock to buy/make a Ring of Freedom of Movement, but still.

[Downzorz]

Couldn't be bothered to read the thread and see if these were mentioned already. I'll preface this by saying that some or all of these are probably **** moves for a DM to pull on a player, but they are something a competent villain might do if they have issues with teleportation.
- Dimensional Lock does interesting things if you teleport from outside the affected area into it. It blocks all extradimensional travel- meaning that you successfully transport yourself to the Astral plane and move, but are unable to transport back. Leaving the traveler stranded on the Astral. Depending on the cruelty of the dungeon's designer, that portion of the Astral may be filled with traps, monsters, or other goodies.
- Blind teleportation is bad; you never know if the door is holding back a room filled to the brim with acid/lava/poison/other discouragements.
- Teleporting back and forth, taking one party member at a time, is a form of splitting the party. I don't need to tell you what happens when you split the party.

[Andion Isurand]

Orthon devils (FCII 128) might make capable opponents against a teleport caster in closed quarters where they might be able corner someone. They're listed as a CR 8 with 7 HD that can emanate a 20 ft. radius field of dimensional interference as a swift action at will, that lasts 4 rounds each time. Plus, they're large and use an exotic reach weapon so they can attack targets anywhere within that field.

[gooddragon1]

I think that presenting direct counters (creatures that block teleport) or heavy handed counters (silence dungeon) might give the wrong message to the player. I think instead that implementing rational results might be the key. Roll the random encounter dice each time he teleports (the ones with 10% for an encounter popping up). Then have some of the denizens that might patrol the hallways notice him and bring the area on alert. Or if you put traps down have it go off. Maybe not the first or third time that he does it but the fourth time he lands on a trap. You're the DM so you can pretend that a trap was there (put other traps throughout the dungeon to make it seem like it was just bad luck). Not a particularly nasty one but something that shows him that there are risks to teleporting to somewhere without seeing it. Or set up traps in the dungeon in advance. Even better is to make the trap semi-obvious (like holes in the wall) that he could easily have avoided if he hadn't teleported into it. So, slightly raised pressure plates, etc.

If you do have him "unfortunately" trigger a trap make sure that the rest of the occurrences happen on pre-set trap locations. Somewhat how minesweeper always ensures the first tile you click isn't a mine but inverted.

In fact, I think the raised pressure plates that work kind of like motion detectors might be the best solution. Lot's of them that reasonably easy to detect. An alternative that is a semi-direct counter if you do prefer that would be a custom encounter where teleporting partially succeeds and brings you to a demi-plane with an optional enemy encounter which he must defeat or risk being attacked by it each time he goes back (allow a second teleport to get to the area in question).

[Marlowe]

EDIT: Seems I was wrong, and that certain others have been cheaty cheaters who cheat.

Good for them.

[Psyren]

Why is anyone talking about Sudden Still?:smallconfused: The relevant feat is Still Spell-Like-Ability in the Monster Manual.

Er, there is no such feat. Before Warlocks existed, there would have been no need of it, because SLAs usually don't have somatic components.

Similarly, there is no "Silent Spell-Like Ability" either (which was similarly irrelevant before Truenamers existed.)

[Marlowe]

Sorry about that.

[nedz]

Er, there is no such feat. Before Warlocks existed, there would have been no need of it, because SLAs usually don't have somatic components.

Similarly, there is no "Silent Spell-Like Ability" either (which was similarly irrelevant before Truenamers existed.)

It would have been quite easy for them to have added one though — also it would be a very easy piece of homebrew.

[Shinken]

It would have been quite easy for them to have added one though — also it would be a very easy piece of homebrew.

Spell like abilities don't have somatic or vocal components. Therefore, there is no need for Silent/Still Spell-like Ability feats.

[nedz]

Spell like abilities don't have somatic or vocal components. Therefore, there is no need for Silent/Still Spell-like Ability feats.

Except when they do, see above.

When they created Warlocks they could quite easily have added Still Spell Like Ability, etc.

[Psyren]

I think boosting all the Sudden X feats to be 3/day would be the better option, if you're going to homebrew. That makes them more fun/useful choices for everyone (rather than creating a feat that only one class will ever need), and more or less has the same effect.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you do have him "unfortunately" trigger a trap make sure that the rest of the occurrences happen on pre-set trap locations. Somewhat how minesweeper always ensures the first tile you click isn't a mine but inverted.

I still find it strange that current versions of Minesweeper do this. Sure, it makes sense, but in olden times the game would totally allow you to click on a mine right at the very beginning. The reason that it's weird to me is that it means the actual layout isn't decided until you make your first click, and that seems like a lot of effort just to prevent people from having to restart the game when they click on a mine right off the bat.

[nedz]

I think boosting all the Sudden X feats to be 3/day would be the better option, if you're going to homebrew. That makes them more fun/useful choices for everyone (rather than creating a feat that only one class will ever need), and more or less has the same effect.

I like that idea. As written the Sudden feats feel like an expensive luxury, and don't get me started on Sudden Quicken with it's outrageous Pre-Req chain, but why not do both and give the players the choice ?

[Psyren]

I like that idea. As written the Sudden feats feel like an expensive luxury, and don't get me started on Sudden Quicken with it's outrageous Pre-Req chain, but why not do both and give the players the choice ?

No real reason not to, except that (as I stated above) I think it's bad design to create a feat only one class will ever need to use. (Okay, 2 if you count DFA.)

[Segev]

No real reason not to, except that (as I stated above) I think it's bad design to create a feat only one class will ever need to use. (Okay, 2 if you count DFA.)

Nah, there's precedent. Bringing up Fighter may not be helping the case all that much, but it IS precedent.

Though, um, Binder also has a feat or two that are basically class features which you have to pay a feat tax to get.

All a "class-specific feat" does is say "this is an option, but not a requirement," or "we feel the class is too good to give it this perk for nothing, so we're taxing you a feat." You can achieve the first with choice-of class features (e.g. the Ranger's choice between ranged feats and two-weapon feats), but if you don't have an "either-or" trade-off you think works, or you want to allow them to pick one of several things up in varying orders depending on concept, making them feats is a good way to cost character resources for making the class more powerful without making the class inherently more powerful.

[Psyren]

I know there's precedent :smalltongue: What I said was that I think it's bad design.

When it is your first scenario (i.e. "this is an option, not a requirement") I personally prefer it to be something the class can choose from for being a member of that class, much like the Pathfinder Ninja's Ninja Tricks, or the Pathfinder Barbarian's Rage Powers, or the Arcanist's Exploits.

For your second scenario, to be a good tax it needs to be way more powerful. Like a feat that automatically removes all somatic components from your invocations - or at a minimum, all the ones below the maximum level you're capable of using. Not some 1/day or 3/day bollocks.

[Segev]

I know there's precedent :smalltongue: What I said was that I think it's bad design.

When it is your first scenario (i.e. "this is an option, not a requirement") I personally prefer it to be something the class can choose from for being a member of that class, much like the Pathfinder Ninja's Ninja Tricks, or the Pathfinder Barbarian's Rage Powers, or the Arcanist's Exploits.Those are good, yes. I think it valid to have "well, we don't really have an alternative, but don't want every member of the class to have this, so we'll make it a feat they can choose instead of more generic abilities if they want."

Same concept as racial feats, really (which I think would be a great idea to expand upon, and a great solution to some of the lower-LA creatures' designs. Make them pay feats rather than LA for their racial abilities).


For your second scenario, to be a good tax it needs to be way more powerful. Like a feat that automatically removes all somatic components from your invocations - or at a minimum, all the ones below the maximum level you're capable of using. Not some 1/day or 3/day bollocks.
Agreed; feats in general could due to be more powerful. I've just created a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371450-Upping-the-Feat-Game) on that topic, with a link to a google doc full of ideas, actually.

[Psyren]

Same concept as racial feats, really (which I think would be a great idea to expand upon, and a great solution to some of the lower-LA creatures' designs. Make them pay feats rather than LA for their racial abilities).

I'm actually not sure I like this idea. It ends up forcing every low-LA creature to look the same feat-wise if they want to feel iconic. As an example - if Drow had to, say, buy their spell-resistance with a feat, then either your starting feat is tied up in that regardless of class, or what you're playing doesn't feel like a Drow at all because you are just as vulnerable to color spray and shocking grasp et al. as any garden-variety elf.

[Dalebert]

[QUOTE=gooddragon1;18098141]If you do have him "unfortunately" trigger a trap make sure that the rest of the occurrences happen on pre-set trap locations. Somewhat how minesweeper always ensures the first tile you click isn't a mine but inverted./QUOTE]

That really shouldn't be necessary since traps and monsters are already common occurrences in dungeons. As has been discussed, blind teleporting is inherently risky behavior. It's just a matter of time before he gets burned a few times and stops doing it casually and frequently. If it hasn't been in OP's dungeons up to now, maybe this thread has reminded of some things to think about regarding handling certain situations more accurately or designing dungeons differently, such as...

* During the round after using that invocation, he loses all remaining actions and is flat-footed. He can't even 5ft step. That's per DD.
* If he teleports into some mobs, he's often going to get attacked at least twice before he uses FtS to get back out because SLAs still trigger AoO, and quite possibly more than twice if there are multiple mobs who get to act before his next action.
* He'll be alerting mobs of a threat who can then have several rounds to prepare as his party does, or they can go ahead and attack enter the party's space and attack them before preparation.
* Traps should be something that he will occasionally trigger and could suck.
* We now know warlock invocations have a somatic component. So if a creature grapples him, he could be SoL for a while.

BTW, OP, there's nothing wrong with pointing out that you have been lax on some rules in the past and pointing the above factors out to him. He deserves to know if you let something slide in the past because you weren't aware of the details and that you now intend to enforce it. He may change his behavior immediately.

[Psyren]

Furthermore, his teleport works like dimension door - that means he lands in whichever square and can take no more actions. He has to wait until the following round to escape, which could mean a lot of attacks coming his way. He can't even use a move action to stealth once he gets there.

[Segev]

I'm actually not sure I like this idea. It ends up forcing every low-LA creature to look the same feat-wise if they want to feel iconic. As an example - if Drow had to, say, buy their spell-resistance with a feat, then either your starting feat is tied up in that regardless of class, or what you're playing doesn't feel like a Drow at all because you are just as vulnerable to color spray and shocking grasp et al. as any garden-variety elf.Yes, but as-is, their first few levels all look the same. They're "level adjustment."

And you have the option of forgoing particular Drow abilities if they don't work for you. Or taking them in differing orders.

I do sympathize with the complaint; I share it in general, as it's one of the reasons I really don't like Savage Progressions, even ignoring how underpowered they are.


Furthermore, his teleport works like dimension door - that means he lands in whichever square and can take no more actions. He has to wait until the following round to escape, which could mean a lot of attacks coming his way. He can't even use a move action to stealth once he gets there.
This is a solid point. Do recall that a group of monsters are likely surprised to see him appear out of nowhere, though, so unless they can act in a surprise round, it should likely come to an initiative roll to see if he can Flee the Scene before they react. (Of course, if they're on alert, they won't be surprised...they may even have readied attacks.)

[nedz]

No real reason not to, except that (as I stated above) I think it's bad design to create a feat only one class will ever need to use. (Okay, 2 if you count DFA.)

You can almost make the opposite argument with Fighter: the fact that anyone can steal his toys cheapens the class; this argument is, of course, weakened owing to his toys being second rate.