About Dragons and Feats

[Arael666]

Hello playground, I'm in need of help. But before I tell you what my problem is (not that you don't know already, since the thread title and all...) let me tell you a little bit about my game and players.

The party is investigating sudden appearances of monsters near the old owl well. What they don't know yet is that a White Dragon recently moved to the nearby mountains and is driving the old residents away (mostly frost themed monsters).

1 - Water Orc Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lion Toten Barbarian 1/ Fighter 5. His feats so far are: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Large and in Charge, Cleave, shock trooper, headlong rush, Powerful Charge and improved Bullrush.

2 - Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Assassin 1. His feats so far are: Weapon Focus, Precise Shot, Able Learner, Dead Eye, Daring Outlaw, Weapon Finesse.

3 - Human Half Minotaur Crusader 4/Barbarian 2. His feats so far are: Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Stand Still, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Wolf Berserker and Item Familiar.

4 - Lesser Tiefling Wizard (Conjurer) 3/Master Specialist 3. His feats so far are: Improved Initiative, Collegiate Wizard, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Cloudy conjuration, Sculpt spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Greater Spell Focus(conjuração)

5 - Lesser Aasimar C. Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 2 / Divine Oracle 1. His feats so far are: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Skill focus (Religion), Extend spell, Travel Devotion, Knowedge Devotion(Planos), Persist Spell and DMM(Persist spell)..

6 - Whisper Gnome Druid 6. His feats so far are: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Ashbound Summoning, Greenbound Summoning and Natural Spell.

After all that, how do I build a CR10 Adult White Dragon with 20 HD to best challenge this party? Here are my thoughts so far:

When the party first encounter the dragon, he'll take advantage of his flight and attack them with his breath weapon from afar.

After a few breath attacks he will retreat to his lair, a cave with crystalline ice for it's floor (half speed or balance checks every turn), where he will battle the party til the bitter end.

The main problem that I can't solve: The druid. He can summon flying monsters, capable flying monsters, I thought that I could use entangling exhalation to make those drop off the sky but it just drops their speed by half (a speed capable of flight!!), anyone has any ideas to drop their move speed by another foot?

The other problem that I can't solve, aside from the metabreath feats from Draconomicon I have no other good ideas for feats, anyone care to enlighten me on a good feat selection for a Dragon?

[WhamBamSam]

The Strafing Breath feat in Dragonlance Campaign Setting is a pretty good feat if you want the dragon to fly around blasting the PCs. I also really, really like giving dragons Martial Study/Stance, since they have a high IL for their CR. I find Setting Sun throws and counters especially fun, though that's largely a matter of taste. Entangling Exhalation is also a good bet as you're already limiting the party's speed with the environment.

Since White Dragons' casting is so crap, you might get more bang for your buck by making her a Xorvintaal Dragon (MMV). Trade out her spell known for a Draconic Aura first per the rules in Dragon Magic. It's a pretty trivial bonus, but it's something for nothing. Also take the Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype from Dragons of Eberron for some extra figher/dragony feats.

Also, note that your Effective Party Level is 7.2. Even though they're fairly optimized, a CR10 dragon might be a very difficult fight.

[Arael666]

Nice feat, didn't remember to look for feats in dragon lance, definitely using that one . There are a few niche spells that would be greatly useful, but I'll seriously consider the template.

Finally, although it's a CR10 dragon, we're still talking about a 6 man party, with summons, I fear it's the other way around. I fear they'll storm the dragon once he retreats to his lair, that's why I'm preparing the terrain in advance. Also, I usually tailor the encounter so the party face numerous low level monsters, so I can abuse actions against them. This is a big change, they never had single big boss before. They'll be unprepared, but they're still 6 guys, with summons.

[eggynack]

What's the druid summoning that's so capable of dragon murder? The best/only SNA III option, giant owl/eagle, and the best SNA II option, hippogriff, are magical beasts, and thus don't work with greenbound summoning. Thus, if he wants to make use of greenbound, and he likely does, he's stuck with dire bat. Taking into account all of his fancy feats, the bat will have +13 to hit and its hit will do 1d8+12 damage, reduced to 1d8+7 after DR, which is alright, but it's not really taking down a white dragon in particularly efficient fashion. That's approximately 6.325 damage per round per bat, which means that you need 22.5 bat-rounds to eat the dragon alive, and that's at the normal HD. It seems like a pretty normal rate of enemy defeating, especially as the dragon can outpace the bats.

[Arael666]

Oh god, I never realized that greenbound didn't apply to magical beasts. Thank you for pointing that mistake, you just solved problem number 1.

[WhamBamSam]

The dragon lacks the Dex or Int to do Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip, unfortunately, but you could still use Stand Still and (once in the encounter per counter maneuver) a ToB counter like Wall of Blades or Baffling Defense to shut down enemy turns that involve getting in close or making an attack roll against the dragon.

Even without being an actual Sorcerer, the dragon has 20 HD, a positive Cha mod (though a lowish one, because again, White Dragon) and UMD as a class skill. You can always use wands/scrolls.

[nedz]

The Dragon should just conduct aerial hit and run attacks using it's breath weapon against a tight group of targets or Snatch and drop against individuals. Dragons are quite fast so aerial interception by the summonings is not a given, also the Dragon can just fly around until the 6 round duration is up — actually Dragons are so unmanoeuvrable that this may not even require a decision.

Having the Dragon circle the party at a distance whilst it sized them up, before flying away and coming back later is a good way of increasing tension.

As to flying back to it's lair: unless the Dragon is really stupid, and OK White Dragons are not the sharpest, it should not lead what it perceives as a strong and dangerous set of opponents straight to it's horde. No, it's going to lead them to an old, or spare, lair — which it has prepared for precisely this situation. All the PCs will find are some traps, some derisory loot bait, and no Dragon.

[Fax Celestis]

Give your dragon some sort of means of immunity or resistance to blindness. The Druid may have blinding spittle prepared and that will ruin your dragon's day.

[fishyfishyfishy]

1 - Water Orc Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Lion Toten Barbarian 1/ Fighter 5. His feats so far are: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Large and in Charge, Cleave, shock trooper, headlong rush, Powerful Charge and improved Bullrush.

2 - Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Assassin 1. His feats so far are: Weapon Focus, Precise Shot, Able Learner, Dead Eye, Daring Outlaw, Weapon Finesse.

3 - Human Half Minotaur Crusader 4/Barbarian 2. His feats so far are: Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Stand Still, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Wolf Berserker and Item Familiar.

4 - Lesser Tiefling Wizard (Conjurer) 3/Master Specialist 3. His feats so far are: Improved Initiative, Collegiate Wizard, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Cloudy conjuration, Sculpt spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Greater Spell Focus(conjuração)

5 - Lesser Aasimar C. Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 2 / Divine Oracle 1. His feats so far are: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Skill focus (Religion), Extend spell, Travel Devotion, Knowedge Devotion(Planos), Persist Spell and DMM(Persist spell)..

6 - Whisper Gnome Druid 6. His feats so far are: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Ashbound Summoning, Greenbound Summoning and Natural Spell.

I don't have anything very productive to add to the conversation...I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that you have 2 minotaurs, a demon, an angel, and 2 gnomes (arguably the worst of the lot) in your party. Is this the norm in your campaigns? Yeesh.

[eggynack]

Oh god, I never realized that greenbound didn't apply to magical beasts. Thank you for pointing that mistake, you just solved problem number 1.
Yeah, figured that was the issue. Glad to be of assistance.

[Segev]

Dragons all have blindsense. Obscuring Mist can be used to hide the dragon's position, and breath weapons don't have a miss chance. Knowing which squares the party is in is all the dragon needs to target a cone. White dragons can spider climb on ice, so use that to your advantage in the cave, which should be covered in ice everywhere. Have traps set up to punish use of fire magic with flash floods and deadfalls just beneath the ice, too.

[Arael666]

I don't have anything very productive to add to the conversation...I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that you have 2 minotaurs, a demon, an angel, and 2 gnomes (arguably the worst of the lot) in your party. Is this the norm in your campaigns? Yeesh.

I started this game as a challenge to myself, I want to see how long I can take this campain with high optimized characters. So far, so good, altough I clearly need to double check my reading on feats.


To all the other sugestions, thanks guys it was a great help, I'll re-think the tactics and seriously consider adding the template and using ToB counters.

[Fax Celestis]

You could also try putting the Xorvintaal template from MMV on your dragon. Makes them easier to run and more tactically interesting, IMO.

[Segev]

Speaking of the cave being covered in ice everywhere, that should at LEAST be difficult terrain, and having it count as a grease spell effect might not be inappropriate, especially if/where fire effects are used.

[Fax Celestis]

Don't white dragons get Ice Walk as an ex ability too?

[Segev]

Don't white dragons get Ice Walk as an ex ability too?

Yeah, that's the spider climb on ice effect to which I was referring.

[Chronos]

The OP led off by saying that the lair was covered in ice which would make it difficult terrain for the party but not for the dragon. You guys don't need to tell him that.

And I don't think the dragon would even need UMD to use wands of sorcerer spells. In the same way that a first-level paladin or ranger can use wands of Cure Light Wounds, because it's a spell on their class list even though they can't actually cast yet, a dragon has all sorcerer spells on its class list even before it can cast them.

[Segev]

The OP led off by saying that the lair was covered in ice which would make it difficult terrain for the party but not for the dragon. You guys don't need to tell him that.Ack, you're right. I was getting too excited about the Icewalk ability.


And I don't think the dragon would even need UMD to use wands of sorcerer spells. In the same way that a first-level paladin or ranger can use wands of Cure Light Wounds, because it's a spell on their class list even though they can't actually cast yet, a dragon has all sorcerer spells on its class list even before it can cast them.
This is correct.

[WhamBamSam]

The OP led off by saying that the lair was covered in ice which would make it difficult terrain for the party but not for the dragon. You guys don't need to tell him that.

And I don't think the dragon would even need UMD to use wands of sorcerer spells. In the same way that a first-level paladin or ranger can use wands of Cure Light Wounds, because it's a spell on their class list even though they can't actually cast yet, a dragon has all sorcerer spells on its class list even before it can cast them.A Xorvintaal Dragon (the context in which I brought up UMD) would probably require it, because they lose their spellcasting ability. I guess you could argue that they retain their spell list and can use spell trigger items the way that first level Rangers do, but it's a stretch.