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ADZAELL
2007-03-10, 01:50 PM
So, i decided to bite the bullet and DM again. It has been a two year hiatus, but i REALLY love the Eberron setting and wanted to run it.

So i invited some people into the group. I told them prior to character creation i would allow the standard races, plus the four new Eberron races, as well as some races suggested in the expansions Secrets of Xen'drick and Secrets of Sarlona. All in all, 16 races.

One of my players stated he would play a Star elf from Forgotten realms. I said no. The player got really annoyed and asked why. I told him it didn't fit into Eberron, where the elves were one race but many cultures (FINALLY, the word race isn't a synonym for culture). He told me i was being inflexible. I said yes, i was, but that was my ruling.

So we are halfway into the session and i realize his Dragonmarked Elven Bard has 20 charisma. I ask how. his response was literally "Um, duh, Star Elf, NOOB!". I reminded him i told him he couldn't play a star elf. He told me that it was in a wizards book so he was entitled to use it. I told him he had to change it. He said he would never play a bard without 20 charisma and wanted to change classes. i was lenient and said that was fine, he could change it at the end of the session. he said he would change it to a warforged fighter right away or leave. so i asked him to leave. he cracked a tantrum and said i sucked as a DM.

GOD I HATE PLAYERS WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT NO MEANS!!!!!

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-10, 01:57 PM
Why did you invite that player again?

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 01:58 PM
Eberron was kinda built to accomodate anything WoTC could throw at you. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find a place for Star Elves.

Still, I think the average intelligence of your group just skyrocketed with the loss of that player. :smalltongue:

Matthew
2007-03-10, 02:01 PM
Well, bearing in mind that we only have access to one side of the story, it sounds like you are better off without him. Of course, there are a few reasons why cutting him loose might not be an attractive solution. Is he a good friend of yours and will this harm your friendship? Was he just having a bad day and brought his baggage with him? Did this incident blow out of proportion for some out of game reason?

ADZAELL
2007-03-10, 02:03 PM
Eberron was kinda built to accomodate anything WoTC could throw at you. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find a place for Star Elves.

Still, I think the average intelligence of your group just skyrocketed with the loss of that player. :smalltongue:

Personally, i think if you are going to add a new set of elves, it breaks verisimilitude. you need a breeding population of 10,000 humans for a viable population apparantly. so there would be 9,999 other star elves around. why haven't they been mentioned before, where did they come from?

Matthew
2007-03-10, 02:08 PM
Plane Shifting? Spell Jammer? The Wizards did it!

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-10, 02:17 PM
You can fit almost anything from a WotC source into Eberron.

However, the lesson you've accepted, and the one your player needs to learn, is that in this case just because you can doesn't mean you should. And since you're the DM, you decide what should be included. Kudos for standing your ground, although I reserve the right to change that opinion if we ever hear the other side of the story.

Commence personal rambling:

Personally, I've considered adapting some of the ninjillion elven subrace statlines to the various Eberron elven cultures; Grey Elves for the Aerenal, Wood Elves for the Valenar, keeping High Elf stats for the Khorvaire elves, and maybe changing their favored class to bard. Not sure where to fit in all the FR subraces, and in my most recent Eberron game, I actually specified "all sourcebooks that don't go to another campaign setting" on allowed books.

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 02:18 PM
They could be random flukes. Maybe one in every 20 elves is born a star elf? They could be considered "really weird looking elves" instead of a separate race.

ambu
2007-03-10, 02:23 PM
Yes we do have just the one side of the story, but really if he tried to sneak the Star elf under the DM's nose the he really should leave. Since he seemed to care only for the 20 in Charisma, it seems that he would play a vacuum cleaner of some wizard book (Complete servant?) said that cleaners get +2 to Cha...

afternoon
2007-03-10, 02:23 PM
It's hilarious that this player threw a temper tantrum because their bard wasn't able to have a 20 charisma at first level.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-10, 02:34 PM
Sometimes it helps to write out campaign-specific rules and house rules and send them in advance of a player joining the group. It sucks as a player to show up at a session and find out there are a bunch of house rules that make the game such that you won't enjoy playing (or that there is nothing of interest for you in the campaign setting).

Of course, sometimes it doesn't help. You can write out a list of 30 approved books for feats, classes and prestige classes and a list of 30 approved races and, unless you ask for sheets in advance, at the first session you can count on getting one player with a race and class completely outside the campaign-specific list of sources and another player with a monster template from a campaign source that he tries to rules lawyer you into accepting.

Orzel
2007-03-10, 02:39 PM
In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-10, 02:41 PM
It's hilarious that this player threw a temper tantrum because their bard wasn't able to have a 20 charisma at first level.

I've got a player like this. We roll stats, and unless he has rolled at least one 18, he is convinced his character sucks and will either try and reroll him or get him killed at the earliest opportunity.

The Pink Ninja
2007-03-10, 02:52 PM
Heh, I support your standing up in the face of Imperialist PC oppression.

Vive La DM!

Kiero
2007-03-10, 03:18 PM
How did you get into playing the session, only to discover what he's got isn't what was agreed at chargen?

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-10, 03:20 PM
Because the bard had 20 CHA. He said that already.

Kiero
2007-03-10, 03:21 PM
Because the bard had 20 CHA. He said that already.

You missed the point. Presumably he had 20 Charisma because he was a Star Elf, something that the GM had explicitly said was not allowed in chargen.

I'm asking how it is the player was able to get from chargen, to starting the session having completely ignored what the GM told him. And why the GM didn't even notice.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-10, 03:25 PM
Possibly because the DM said no and assumed that was that and that he'd build his character with a normal elf rather than checking every step of the way. I only audit my players' character sheets every few levels.

Mike_G
2007-03-10, 03:39 PM
I've got a player like this. We roll stats, and unless he has rolled at least one 18, he is convinced his character sucks and will either try and reroll him or get him killed at the earliest opportunity.


One reason I switched to point buy in my campaigns.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-10, 03:56 PM
In my campaign, this character would be forced to play a kobold adept. One who is slave to one or two other party members.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-10, 04:07 PM
I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot. I bet it'd be hard to find players to accept that.

The beauty is that you don't have to show the players their character's sheet (well, you'd tell them their spells and what they were good at but not specif numbers) and can make all the rolls yourself therefore completely destroying any metagaming.

Probably best to do to a group who prefer freeform when you're a DM who hates freeform.

Mike_G
2007-03-10, 04:20 PM
I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot. I bet it'd be hard to find players to accept that.

The beauty is that you don't have to show the players their character's sheet (well, you'd tell them their spells and what they were good at but not specif numbers) and can make all the rolls yourself therefore completely destroying any metagaming.

Probably best to do to a group who prefer freeform when you're a DM who hates freeform.


Many players wouldn't enjoy that. Part of the fun is building a character.

Point buy, careful monitoring of wealth and magic items, and being clear on what's allowed works fine for us.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-10, 04:29 PM
You may have to make your players create their characters while you are around to supervise. That way, when they start pulling out the Forgotten Realms books, you're there to tell them not to even think about it.

Also rule that in Eberron, Star elves exist, but their stats don't differ from ordinary elves.

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 04:44 PM
Also rule that in Eberron, Star elves exist, but their stats don't differ from ordinary elves.

Sounds like the only reason why the player wanted to be a star elf was so he could have his precious 20 Charisma at level 1.

blackfox
2007-03-10, 04:45 PM
"Can I be a dragon?"
"No."
"Can I be a great wyrm gold dragon?"
"No."
"What about a very, very young dragon?"
"No."
"It wouldn't unbalance the campaign at all! I could play a very young brass dragon; 7 HD and a +3 LA adds up to level 10, I could just start out with no levels and--"
"No."
"What about a wyrmling brass dragon? 4 HD and a +2 LA and 4 class levels?"
"No."
"What about a wyrmling brass dragon and no character levels?"
"No. Get away from my Monster Manual."
"What about a wyrmling white dragon with no character levels?"
"Gah!" *patience snaps*
[hr]Well, what can I say about that that Assassinfox hasn't said already? :smalltongue:

greenknight
2007-03-10, 05:36 PM
He told me that it was in a wizards book so he was entitled to use it. I told him he had to change it.

Maybe your player should be reading something else that's in a Wizards book. Like the 3.5e PHB, p6, which says CHECK WITH YOUR DUNGEON MASTER. I don't always agree with a DM's ruling myself, and while I will sometimes question a particular ruling, in the end, the DM's word is law. In this case, you stated the rule prior to chargen, the player questioned it (which I see no problem with), and you said no again. That should have been the end of the matter, and if the player really didn't like it he should have left the game rather than go against your specific ruling. Sounds to me like it's the player who's the noob, not you.

Maryring
2007-03-10, 06:03 PM
"Um, duh, Star Elf, NOOB!".
"A shooting star falls from heaven and annihilates your character, by power of the DM."

I can accept most things, but answering like that is just... First of all, when you play DnD, you're not playing a stupid MMORPG where you can get away with painful words like that. Second, he had no reason to know you were playing a star elf since he trusted you. Third, YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY THAT RACE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I would say that you did right in standing by your ruling. If a player can't handle even that, he should return to playing WoW or Runescape.


"Can I be a dragon?"
"No."
"Can I be a great wyrm gold dragon?"
"Yes. Unfortunately you are killed because your hoard is needed to fund the BBEG's plan on taking over the world. Roll up a new character which primary purpose is not to give more money to the evil guys."


I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot.

I have wanted to do that many times. Mostly because one doesn't know how to make a character, one makes very cheesy characters which are ultimately useless, one makes characters that are just useless and one player makes good characters. Together... most of the time is spent on them making characters. Honestly, the quickest of them spends 3 times more time than I do on making a character. Still, character creation is fun, and it is the only thing my players do well. So I let them. Besides, I wouldn't like being handed a character and told "this is you. Play him."

Dark
2007-03-10, 06:37 PM
Actually, the best campaign I've ever played in started with the DM handing us our character sheets. I don't remember if we got a choice of who played which character, but the result worked very well. The DM also determined much of our backgrounds, and told us that we were in the military of a city that had just been moved to a new world, sent out on a scouting mission.

The line between campaign building and character creation can be fuzzy :)

Krellen
2007-03-10, 06:57 PM
I wouldn't be friends with a person like this, so I've never had this problem at my table. Hurray high standards!

BoneLord
2007-03-10, 07:26 PM
In the last game I tried to DM, I would up with 3 human paladins with greatswords, a human ranger with a greatsword, and a kobold cleric who the paladins kicked around for run. I was irked enough that I actually let them fight a 5th level wight cleric at first level. Most of them did not come back for another game.

The one paladin who did survive (by running away before the fight even started) had a player who continued to look over my screen, and roll his d20 into a pile of identical d20s right up against the DM screen, then declare that he rolled a natural 20 before I even got the chance to look at it. It didn't help much that he had played the module I was running twice before and kept trying to "help" things along. We also had two new players, including a "biter" who told us the story of how he had bitten his teacher once in high school for trying to take away his snack in the middle of class. After the second session was over, I simply did not go back to that game store for a month or two. Several people were angry with me for not showing up to several games even though I put out the word that the game was canceled.

I also have a friend who likes to DM "Old School." When I poked a dead kobold with a longspear earlier this week, he ruled that I stepped up to the kobold and triggered a trap. It seems like this sort of thing happens [not infrequently] to me in his games so I argued with him about it for a minute before the arrow trap missed and I simply gave up. He seems to delight in keeping things exciting by attempting to kill characters. It didn't help much that I was playing an NPC warrior 1 because both my characters had died in the game session before. Wierdly, my NPC fared better than any of the other characters and ended up saving them from an ambush of kobolds.

Anyways, I don't know if there was any point to this, except to complain about other games I have run or played in. Don't let someone ruin your game just because he feels like being obnoxious and deliberately ignorant. The goal is for the players to have fun, and for the DM to have fun helping the players to have fun rather than for anyone to make anyone else miserable. :smallsmile:

Everyman
2007-03-10, 08:08 PM
As stated, you did the right thing. As the DM, you are the creator and leader of the game. If a race, class, or anything would not fit into your concept of the game world, you have the right to say no.

While I can understand the player getting mad at your decision to veto the elf race, it does not give him the right to make it anyway. More importantly, it does NOT give him the right to essentially blackmail you during a session. Tell you that you have to give him what he wants or he leaves is emotional blackmail and harassment. It not only disturbs you, but puts a big damper on the session. Kicking him out is the best decision you could have made.

Believe me, I've had a few players who couldn't follow rules in the past. One player (whom I told to email me if he couldn't make it to sessions) liked keeping me in the dark about whether or not he would be showing up. When I finally lost my patience and told him to either start showing or leave, he called me...a few explictives and told me that I was being a dictator. When I forwarded our conversation to everyone else (yes, he did this via email...couldn't even bother to actually talk to me), every group member agreed that he should be kicked out.

To this day, he has never joined one of our games and life has been much, much better.:smallsmile:

Kiero
2007-03-10, 08:12 PM
I was thinking of creating all the characters MYSELF (as DM) and then handing them out by lot. I bet it'd be hard to find players to accept that.

The beauty is that you don't have to show the players their character's sheet (well, you'd tell them their spells and what they were good at but not specif numbers) and can make all the rolls yourself therefore completely destroying any metagaming.

Probably best to do to a group who prefer freeform when you're a DM who hates freeform.

Pregens work just fine, provided you get buy-in from everyone before you hand them out. And have a good selection of them for the players to choose from (ie not "here Bob, I've decided you'll be playing X").

Tobrian
2007-03-10, 08:23 PM
Eberron was kinda built to accomodate anything WoTC could throw at you. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to find a place for Star Elves.

On the other hand, Eberron has a rich history of its own, it has its own special races and cultures. Why would it need Faerunian elves? Saying "this world must accomodate anything WotC has ever published anywhere" turns Eberron into a sort of trash heap for munchkins. Why do you think WotC go to the length of writing a specific setting and publishing books in it if they wanted Eberron to become another Forgotten Realms where everything goes?

Star Elves? I thought I knew every damn elven subrace of Faerun, what the hell are Star Elves?

If someone came into a game of Forgotten Realms and wanted to play a race that only exists in Dragonlance, even after the DM has explicitely said no, would you demand that the DM comes up with some lame story just to justify the DL character being there?

It sounds the player just wanted to import some twinked-up old character of his and gave a sh*it about the setting, or the campaign. Why should a gamemaster bend over backwards to "find a place" for a spoiled-brat player if said player has already made it clear that he ignores the gamemaster's rules and only wants to play if he can get a free ego trip?

And I hate players who only pick a race because it gives them the perfect stats for minmaxing their class/PrC concept. They're not playing a real person, merely a character sheet.

Sturmjaeger
2007-03-10, 08:34 PM
You were perfectly within your rights as a DM to allow and disallow whatever races you want. Especially for a race that only exists in a completely different campaign setting. That player was selfish and obviously something of a powergamer. He blatantly defied the rules fort he game that you set. He was told no but did what he wanted anyway, then acted like a jerk about it. Your group is better off without him.

Tobrian
2007-03-10, 08:38 PM
In the last game I tried to DM, I would up with 3 human paladins with greatswords, a human ranger with a greatsword, (snip)

Obviously, there was a bargain sale somewhere. :smallbiggrin:
Or they just fell off the back of a cart.

Sturmjaeger
2007-03-10, 08:38 PM
On the other hand, Eberron has a rich history of its own, it has its own special races and cultures. Why would it need Faerunian elves? Saying "this world must accomodate anything WotC has ever published anywhere" turns Eberron into a sort of trash heap for munchkins. Why do you think WotC go to the length of writing a specific setting and publishing books in it if they wanted Eberron to become another Forgotten Realms where everything goes?

The player just wanted something that would grant him 20 Charisma for his precious bard.


Star Elves? I thought I knew every damn elven subrace of Faerun, what the hell are Star Elves?

They're from Unapproachable East. Basically a subrace of elves with the extraplanar subtype that have lived in pocket dimension until recently. They're designed to be Bards. +2 Cha, -2 Con.

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 09:56 PM
On the other hand, Eberron has a rich history of its own, it has its own special races and cultures. Why would it need Faerunian elves? Saying "this world must accomodate anything WotC has ever published anywhere" turns Eberron into a sort of trash heap for munchkins. Why do you think WotC go to the length of writing a specific setting and publishing books in it if they wanted Eberron to become another Forgotten Realms where everything goes?

Well, the inclusions of certain races like the ones introduced in XPH or Magic of Incarnum certainly looked like they were randomly squeezed in just so players could pick them.

Kiero
2007-03-10, 10:00 PM
Possibly because the DM said no and assumed that was that and that he'd build his character with a normal elf rather than checking every step of the way. I only audit my players' character sheets every few levels.

Again not what I'm saying. More of "what kind of people do you play with, that they behave that way". Been a long time since I had to deal with basic disrespect like that. Not since school, in fact, and even then it was a rare occurence.


It sounds the player just wanted to import some twinked-up old character of his and gave a sh*it about the setting, or the campaign. Why should a gamemaster bend over backwards to "find a place" for a spoiled-brat player if said player has already made it clear that he ignores the gamemaster's rules and only wants to play if he can get a free ego trip?

And I hate players who only pick a race because it gives them the perfect stats for minmaxing their class/PrC concept. They're not playing a real person, merely a character sheet.

Frankly I'm not that fussed what someone's motivations are for picking a race/class/whatever, provided they'll have fun with it in a way that doesn't detract from anyone else's.

What is a real problem here though is the breach of trust in changing the character after the fact, knowing full well the GM had said it wasn't permitted, and worse the total lack of respect in how it was dealt with when he was found out.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-10, 10:01 PM
Star Elves? I thought I knew every damn elven subrace of Faerun, what the hell are Star Elves?
Detailed in Unapproachable East. They used to rule Aglarond's forests before the current human/half-elven power structure came about. Now they live in a demiplane called Sildeyuir that's coterminous with the Yuirwood. You don't see them much in Faerun either.

Vaynor
2007-03-10, 10:36 PM
Don't let someone ruin your game just because he feels like being obnoxious and deliberately ignorant.

YES!

I feel the need to repost this story here, not exactly players not understanding the word "no" but just annoying players in particular.

Me (DM): In our new campaign sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free at 1st level, k?
My Players: No way that's stupid, it makes sorcerers too powerful.
Me: ...seriously?
MP: Yah! That makes sorcerers way too good!
Me: But I don't even keep track of components that cost less than a gold!
MP: Doesn't matter, it's still an extra feat!
Me: ONE THAT DOES NOT MATTER, IT'S JUST FLAVOR! [/yell]
(this is a summarized argument by the way, real thing was 10+ minutes...)
MP: It lets them get metamagic earlier!
Me: ...what?
MP: Yah! They don't have to waste the feat on Eschew Materials, so they don't have to wait for 3rd level for metamagic!
Me: Who said ALL sorcerers had to get Eschew Materials at level one? They're free to get a metamagic feat if they want.
MP: Still, it's stupid! *realizes he's wrong and gets on my case about not tracking materials* You should track materials! It can make a difference!
Me: :smallfrown:

This comes from the guy who gets mad at me cause he broke his sword (which he spent almost all his money on and neglected to make it adamantine) on an EARTH elemental. Me showing him where it says "Improved Sunder" didn't faze him.

Krellen
2007-03-10, 10:40 PM
You should track materials! It can make a difference!
Oh yeah, such a difference. 5 whole gold pieces. Do players really not realise that once you buy that 5 gp spell component pouch your material components are covered?

Eschew Material's real advantage is freeing up a hand, since you no longer need it to hold the material component when casting. But really, it's largely unimportant. Besides, Sorcerers can use the extra feat. They don't get five bonus ones like Wizards do.

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 10:41 PM
Sending sorcerers into caves looking for bat guano every time they want to cast Fireball is the only thing that keeps them from ruling us all! :smalltongue:

Vaynor
2007-03-10, 11:01 PM
Oh yeah, such a difference. 5 whole gold pieces. Do players really not realise that once you buy that 5 gp spell component pouch your material components are covered?

Eschew Material's real advantage is freeing up a hand, since you no longer need it to hold the material component when casting. But really, it's largely unimportant. Besides, Sorcerers can use the extra feat. They don't get five bonus ones like Wizards do.

Exactly! I guess it's just my players then...

They keep realizing they're losing the argument then decide to bug me about something else. He's now complaining that changing the classes at all is stupid and they're good as they are. Even when I tell him, no, they aren't for my campaign, because I want things to work like that in MY world, he doesn't listen...

Piedmon_Sama
2007-03-10, 11:09 PM
In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.

In Oregon, we tie them up and leave them in the woods, but the principal is the same. ^_^

Vaynor
2007-03-10, 11:12 PM
Now he's saying because Wizard's put it there you HAVE to use it that way, and if I'm changing it at all then it's stupid...

I pointed out polymorph as an example of when Wizard's was wrong, he didn't care.

I pointed out Wizard's makes D&D to be adaptable, and used UA as an example.

I would just kick him from the game if he keeps it up, problem is he'll just sway the rest of the players too and then I can't DM... :smallfrown:

EDIT: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad: :smallmad:

....:smallmad:

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 11:20 PM
The Solution: Fire, and lots of it.

Vaynor
2007-03-10, 11:23 PM
The Solution: Fire, and lots of it.

I don't think that will help...

SeekerInTheNight
2007-03-10, 11:23 PM
Come on Vaynor, you know what you want to do here. Just tell the ****er to enjoy the bonus or get out of the game.

And if he's not a caster, give 'im something random like Improved Initiative and tell him to stfu.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-10, 11:26 PM
Or perhaps captain "RAW is sacrosanct" would prefer to DM a few sessions? Let him try it out?
(While I wouldn't recommend setting out to break out the RAW cheese just to show him that there are some problems, maybe a bit of perspective will help.)

Allandaros
2007-03-10, 11:33 PM
To all the people saying "Oh, allow Star Elves, make one in twenty normal elves a star elf..."

That's ridiculous.


Also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players...By ordering things as they should be, the game as a whole first, your campaign next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be.-1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide

Mr. Gygax was spot on then, and he's spot on now.

Also: Bad gaming is worse than no gaming. You sound like a fair and equitable DM; I have confidence in your ability to rustle up players.

RandomNPC
2007-03-10, 11:34 PM
my group's a bunch of friends, 'cept my lil bro in law. when we need another gamer someone invites a friend, and we go from there. being a group of friends everyone tends to take out problem characters.

we nailed someone to a bugbear with a balista bolt

someone who created a half red dragon half human also decided to create the powerful build ability about a year before it existed. lets say balance is the reason this guy will never make it to publishing books for this game. he was medium sized so he didn't need to buy special gear or anything, and there were no space problems, being medium and all. but then he was large, so he could carry a large greatsword and as a half dragon he could fly (but have better manuverability because he was medium) and all kinds of things.
so when he missed a game i took up his character and made honest rolls for him. i tried. they made a welcome matt out of him. he came back the next game wondering why he was dead, his question:
"how did my 1st level 1/2 dragon barbarian loose to two 4th level characers? they shouldn't have been able to overcome my DR"
needless to say a DR 5 can be overcome by a legitimately made 4th level barbarian and a 4th level rogue. especially when the rogue is flanking something it can sneak attack with a good weapon.

Dervag
2007-03-10, 11:40 PM
In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.Sounds like my kind of place!

Assassinfox
2007-03-10, 11:43 PM
I wasn't saying that the DM should just crumple and add star elves to the setting just because the player says so. If the player went through all the trouble of creating a character with backstory and explanation for how he's playing a star elf, and then politely submitted it to the DM for approval, it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze them into the setting. That player, however, was not only rude, but he only wanted to be a star elf for the stat bonuses.

Vaynor
2007-03-10, 11:44 PM
Come on Vaynor, you know what you want to do here. Just tell the ****er to enjoy the bonus or get out of the game.

And if he's not a caster, give 'im something random like Improved Initiative and tell him to stfu.

That's a good idea.

Also, I would like to direct people who agree with me to the poll I made. Hopefully showing him 50 votes for yes, 0 votes for no might faze him...

Shadow of the Sun
2007-03-10, 11:46 PM
Now, see, you are a far more tolerant person than I am. After the 'Star Elf N00B' thing, depending on how angry I was, I probably would have stabbed him with something.

Now, tie him to a tree and let him kick wolves until he gets tired.

JadedDM
2007-03-11, 12:04 AM
I agree you should stick to your guns. If you said no Star Elves at the beginning, then the player is in the wrong for trying to sneak one in anyway.

That being said, it sounds like the player only really cared about the +2 CHA bonus more than anything else. Out of curiosity, is there any race that also grants that bonus in that setting?

Sturmjaeger
2007-03-11, 01:03 AM
That's a good idea.

Also, I would like to direct people who agree with me to the poll I made. Hopefully showing him 50 votes for yes, 0 votes for no might faze him...

But then it's not an honest poll, now is it?

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-11, 01:12 AM
Actually, a in game solution might present itself. Just make a demonstration on how powerful Polymorph any Object is, and change him to a normal elf. Or, if you were cruel, make him a fire elf(+2Dex,+2Int,-2Con,-2CHA)

Vaynor
2007-03-11, 01:23 AM
But then it's not an honest poll, now is it?

Yes it is, I'm just urging people who agree with me to vote on it.

People who think I'm wrong, don't go to any poll thread by me in the Gaming section... :smallwink:

Leon
2007-03-11, 01:25 AM
Tie him to a Tree and punch him

DM is the one that says what goes - you dont like that well tough, your free to leave

Assassinfox
2007-03-11, 12:33 PM
That being said, it sounds like the player only really cared about the +2 CHA bonus more than anything else. Out of curiosity, is there any race that also grants that bonus in that setting?

Spellscales. Favored class is Sorcerer, but they get a +2 Cha without LA.

Artanis
2007-03-11, 01:17 PM
Actually, a in game solution might present itself. Just make a demonstration on how powerful Polymorph any Object is, and change him to a normal elf. Or, if you were cruel, make him a fire elf(+2Dex,+2Int,-2Con,-2CHA)
Half-Orc would be better. -2CHA without all those bonuses getting in the way of the object lesson :smallwink:

Maroon
2007-03-11, 02:21 PM
Next time something like this happens, put an inevitable on him. Make it drag him back to his own universe, saying: "Faerun wants its munchkins back."

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-11, 02:27 PM
Quite frankly, I'd agree with everyone else who says that you were right to put your foot down, and quite frankly would have been justified to ask him not to come back, if he can't afford even a modicron of respect for you as DM.

V
2007-03-11, 06:20 PM
somehow I have a feeling that all those whiny players are the same lot that sed to beg their parents for some candy or ice cream - and then got it. Every time.

Seriously, some people are just spoiled.

EvilElitest
2007-03-11, 10:33 PM
In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.

Dam right. It is the Brooklyn way. Hooray for Brooklyn.
In a relevent note, even if it is from a WOW book, it is from a FR's book. And you are still the DM. Your word is law.
from,
EE

valadil
2007-03-12, 12:50 PM
GM trumps book. I'm pretty sure that's in the DMG somewhere, so it's gotta be true unless the GM revokes it, in which case he didn't have the power to revoke it in the first place.

Anyway, because I'm a spiteful jerk I'd have told that player he can't play a charismatic character because he won't be able to roleplay it correctly. Given what you've told us about the player, this is probably true.

PnP Fan
2007-03-12, 01:39 PM
Agree with your decision. I keep hearing these horror stories about players and GMs treating each other poorly. Does anyone actually game with their friends anymore? hmmmm time to put up a poll.

Tallis
2007-03-12, 03:36 PM
You were definitely right and were probably nicer about it than
I would have been.
I had a similar problem with a player wanting to bring in a race that was not from my list of approved books for my campaign. When I asked him to bring the book in for me so I could read it and decide whether to approve it he never showed up for the game again. I have a sneaking feeling he was trying to scam me.:smallannoyed:
In Toledo we punch them, then send them to Oregon.:smallwink:

rollfrenzy
2007-03-12, 03:45 PM
To me, the issue is not the race AT ALL. It is the fact that after being told "no" he CHEATED and did it anyway. He definately shouldn't be allowed abck unless there are some seriously extenuating circumstances.

Ethdred
2007-03-13, 06:51 AM
That's a good idea.

Also, I would like to direct people who agree with me to the poll I made. Hopefully showing him 50 votes for yes, 0 votes for no might faze him...

In that case, shouldn't you link to it? :) I certainly agree with you - in fact, having started playing with the Basic set, we always used something very similar to Eschew Materials as a house rule, so I was really glad when they actually formalised it into the rules so I no longer have to explain it to people.

But given the Spell Component Pouch thingie, why not just give every character 5 extra GP when starting - of course, you have to remember not to imprison the casters and take their pouches off them.

As for the OP, I add my voice to the cacophony of people telling you that you were dead right!

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-13, 07:52 AM
Next time something like this happens, put an inevitable on him. Make it drag him back to his own universe, saying: "Faerun wants its munchkins back."

I'm fairly certain someone posted stats for just such an Inevitable on these very boards: the Deus Ex Machina.
It exists to enforce the will of the DM.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-13, 05:53 PM
Agree with your decision. I keep hearing these horror stories about players and GMs treating each other poorly. Does anyone actually game with their friends anymore? hmmmm time to put up a poll.

I do! While my group (this is my old, extended group, back before college) contained people who didn't understand the rules, munchkins, powergamers, and in general, the roleplaying impaired, all of us, waaaaay back when we started playing (middle school, for most of us) understood that the DM's word was law. Any argument with the DM continues only until the DM says "Then I'm DM-ruling that it's X and not Y." Then that's it. The argument stops even if the most headstrong and rules-literate player was involved. Of course, some of us are better at DMing than others (if you catch my meaning), but the bad or silly campaigns die quickly and, in general, the inexperienced DMs rarely want the job, so no stress there. We're all friends or aquaintences (for the 2 new guys that started playing back home) and the players in my current group (at college) are all friends - most of whom don't even challenge the rules. They accepted my admittedly numerous restrictions for my current campaign with good grace.

Jannex
2007-03-14, 02:47 AM
I'm fairly certain someone posted stats for just such an Inevitable on these very boards: the Deus Ex Machina.
It exists to enforce the will of the DM.

Shouldn't that be "Deus Ex Mechanus"? :smallwink:

Irenaeus
2007-03-14, 06:21 AM
Shouldn't that be "Deus Ex Mechanus"? :smallwink:

Eh, why? I don't get this one.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-14, 08:36 AM
Eh, why? I don't get this one.

It is a reference to the Outer Plane of Mechanus. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanus)

Irenaeus
2007-03-14, 08:45 AM
It is a reference to the Outer Plane of Mechanus. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanus)

Ah! Of course, thanks! I got quite lost trying to make any sense of the latin. In that case, since it is still a latin phrase and ex takes the ablative, Mechanus must be conjugated.

Deus ex Mechano!

Baalzebub
2007-03-14, 08:48 AM
I don't like psionics. I hate Psionic magic. But one of my players only wants to play psions, and whenever i tell him "no psionics in this game" he starts yelling and telling me that I'm an unfair DM. I talk to him, but he won't listen... i end up giving him psionics with certain conditions, no psionic races, background, and in game i'm very strict with him.

But I got my revenge when he had to be the DM and he didn't wanted Arcane Magic in the game. I started acting like him, telling that I won't play unless he gives me access to the Complete Arcane to play a Wild Mage. He was very confused about my attitude, he ended up giving me the Wild Mage. When he asked me why I was acting like that, I just told him "because that's how you react when I forbid psionics in my game". :smallmad:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-14, 09:08 AM
When he asked me why I was acting like that, I just told him "because that's how you react when I forbid psionics in my game". :smallmad:
Well, I hope he was at least a good sport about it when you told him that.

Kyrsis
2007-03-14, 09:15 AM
Agree with your decision. I keep hearing these horror stories about players and GMs treating each other poorly. Does anyone actually game with their friends anymore? hmmmm time to put up a poll.

I do, exclusively. Because of horror stories I hear around here and other places and some of the people I've encountered at Cons and stores, I tend to becareful about jumping into games with strangers.
My original DM and group was awesome, and my current one back at home station is the same. Unfortunately, the DM will be gone for good by the time I get back, but I can always remember the fun. If anyone DOES have issues with another player for whatever reason, they are all good at leaving it outside and being respectful towards each other. Sure, we have our arguments during those high tension moments where a character's life is on the line where one might be apt to snap, but nothing other than normal bickering (doesn't even happen that much). We play all kinds of different settings and games (to include old and new WOD, freeform, you name it).

Ranis
2007-03-14, 09:49 AM
In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.

We punch people in Indianapolis for this too! Small world.

Although Eberron really makes me cry inside, 16 races to choose from is more than any other campaign setting I've ever heard of, save Forgotten Realms. And on that same note, that kid was a powergamer through and through, and when I have to DM for people like that, I make sure that they get the worst gear to teach them that D&D is not just powergaming, but the entire role-playing and storybook hero experience. You did a good thing, my friend.

ssjKammak
2007-03-14, 10:25 AM
Gday,

Personally the only thing worse than a player who doesnt understand no is a DM who is to scared to say no. Theres nothing worse than playing a game where one player just doesnt understand the spirit of playing DND and deamnds outrageous things, and the DM goes along with it not to create conflict. As i mentioned in raynors poll thread you should really condier why you play the game, if its to argue and lose mates keep being inflexible and argumentative, if its to have fun and play with your mates you should bite the bullet and go along with the DM 20 cha a bonus feat i mean honestly its just so trivial in the grand scheme of the game and player should be big enough to accept there is a good reason the DM has made a rulign for his campaign/ story arc.

PS in Australia we just drink beer until we cant hear an annoying player, alot less violent than punching

Cheers
A friendly aussie

Baalzebub
2007-03-14, 11:25 AM
Well, I hope he was at least a good sport about it when you told him that.

Well, he put a serious face (and the other gamers too) after that, but in the next 5 minutes we were laughing at the situation again :smallbiggrin: I know him for years now, he even gave an extra +1 to my amulet of nat armor and to my ring of deflection... But I bet I can see my Wild mage dying by the 2nd session or so :smallamused:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-14, 11:26 AM
In Brooklyn, we punch people for this. We puch people for all lot of reasons though. Punching is fun. The DM is law.


We punch people in Indianapolis for this too! Small world.


PS in Australia we just drink beer until we cant hear an annoying player, alot less violent than punching


In Oregon, we tie them up and leave them in the woods, but the principal is the same. ^_^

Well, I'm from Wisconsin, the land of Ed Gein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Gein), Jeffrey Dahmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffery_dahmer), Philip Schuth (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7613305/), Joe McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy), and the Millers (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20040320/ai_n10951246).

What we do is... well...



...It's just not pretty.

The Prince of Cats
2007-03-14, 11:49 AM
I've got a player like this. We roll stats, and unless he has rolled at least one 18, he is convinced his character sucks and will either try and reroll him or get him killed at the earliest opportunity.
My sister has something similar. Unless she is playing a Druid or a Bard, she will try to die. Sadly, she is very good at it. Last Sunday, she was attacked by a dire crocodile and dropped to -12 hp in one hit. Then we realised that she needed to level up and got an extra 3 hit-points. -9 is not dead. Especially if the crocodile gets bisected by a barbarian (opposed strength check to open the crocodile's jaws - the barbarian beat it by 20-something, even with penalties)

Actually, I also have a player who will sulk if his dex is lower than 20 or he doesn't get hide and move-silently as class-skills. He even plays rangers as under-powered rogues.

valadil
2007-03-14, 01:01 PM
I used to play with a guy who would roll the d20 and if the result was 5 or less cry out, "that's bulls***," and promptly reroll. Every single time. I told him we were playing d20, not d15+5, but he didn't stop. Our DM handled it well though and had the player fail whatever check he was making any time he did that, regardless of whether the original roll succeeded.

Golthur
2007-03-14, 02:10 PM
Well, I'm from Wisconsin, the land of Ed Gein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Gein), Jeffrey Dahmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffery_dahmer), Philip Schuth (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7613305/), Joe McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy), and the Millers (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20040320/ai_n10951246).

What we do is... well...



...It's just not pretty.

Where I'm from, we just leave 'em outside in winter. It hits about -50C (or sometimes colder) with the wind chill (around -58F for all the Americans out there) during the right time of the year (Dec - Feb), which is also, not coincidentally, peak gaming season.

Irenaeus
2007-03-14, 02:46 PM
Where I'm from, we just leave 'em outside in winter. It hits about -50C (or sometimes colder) with the wind chill (around -58F for all the Americans out there) during the right time of the year (Dec - Feb), which is also, not coincidentally, peak gaming season.

Here we still carve the Blood Eagle on such people. After all, our ancestors created it as a punishment for insolent gamers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_eagle

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-14, 03:07 PM
Where I'm from, we just leave 'em outside in winter. It hits about -50C (or sometimes colder) with the wind chill (around -58F for all the Americans out there) during the right time of the year (Dec - Feb), which is also, not coincidentally, peak gaming season.

Wow...

You win.

:smallbiggrin:

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-14, 03:11 PM
Here we still carve the Blood Eagle on such people. After all, our ancestors created it as a punishment for insolent gamers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_eagle

Ah, my father gets ill at the meer mentioning of that.

Hmm... I didn't know they used salt as well. That seems... excessive...

Golthur
2007-03-14, 03:15 PM
Here we still carve the Blood Eagle on such people. After all, our ancestors created it as a punishment for insolent gamers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_eagle

Ewww... And, yes, the salt seems a bit much. I almost don't even think you'd notice at that point. It'd be like stubbing your toe while being run through.


Wow...

You win.

:smallbiggrin:

Nope, he ^^ does. :smile:

RandomNPC
2007-03-14, 03:18 PM
in my area we just make confused faces at the offending person, and when they ask, tell them whats wrong. this leads down many paths, everything from solving it, to trying to beat eachother silly. personally i havent had any violent ones, but there's a reason i keep live steel in my home.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-14, 03:34 PM
Where I'm from we use rockets. It's an engineering town. Revenge has a whole new smorgasboard of flavors.

lumberofdabeast
2007-03-14, 03:49 PM
Am I the only one that wants a link to the Deus ex Machina?

And where I'm from, we send them to Wisconsin or, for extremely bad cases, lands once held by the Norse.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-14, 03:57 PM
Am I the only one that wants a link to the Deus ex Machina?

And where I'm from, we send them to Wisconsin or, for extremely bad cases, lands once held by the Norse.

Deus ex Machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina)

You should read some Euripedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides) for great examples of its use.

... Unless of course you meant the the construct :smallamused: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20221&highlight=deux+machina)

lumberofdabeast
2007-03-14, 04:10 PM
Thank you. And I am well aware of the literary term, although I probably should have specified. Or spelled correctly. Whichever.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-14, 04:20 PM
Thank you. And I am well aware of the literary term, although I probably should have specified. Or spelled correctly. Whichever.

Nahh, it was pretty clear from your post. :smallcool:

Puck
2007-03-14, 04:25 PM
To answer the original post, you did the right thing. When you DM, you have to take a firm line on some things or get steamrolled. If it hadn't happened then, it would have happened later. Fortunately, you got the drama out of the way and sent the player packing on day 1.

Go you.

Playing at your table is a privilege, not a right. Anyone who treats it with a sense of entitlement needs to learn who is running the game, or find another game.

Stephen_E
2007-03-14, 08:16 PM
To be fair sometimes you can have a misunderstanding about what was said (although in this case the following behaviour suggests otherwise).

My most recent game the GM thought he said "Core books + Complete books ONLY", I thought he said "You can have anything in Core or Complete, I'n not keen on anything else". I have no idea who remembered what was said correctly, but come the actual character gen session I went "I'd like to build towards this Prestige class from Races of the Wild. Would you look at it and tell me if it's OK" and he responded "What part of ONLT Core and Complete did you not understand".

The difference with the player you faced is that I then went "OK, I misunderstood" and on the fly modified my character (not entirely satisfactorily but.... I can live with it). I got the last word though. I was going to play a Human but the GM (who doesn't like Halflings) cracked a joke that my character would be better as a halfling, so I went "fine, that would work. You've convinced me. I'll play a halfling", and when he grumbles I point out "but you told me to play a halfling". :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

Beleriphon
2007-03-14, 08:35 PM
We punch people in Indianapolis for this too! Small world.

Although Eberron really makes me cry inside, 16 races to choose from is more than any other campaign setting I've ever heard of, save Forgotten Realms. And on that same note, that kid was a powergamer through and through, and when I have to DM for people like that, I make sure that they get the worst gear to teach them that D&D is not just powergaming, but the entire role-playing and storybook hero experience. You did a good thing, my friend.

Technically Eberron has the standard races and four new ones. Anything else is up to the whim of the DM.

ssjKammak
2007-03-16, 10:16 AM
GDay again,

Stephen_E raises another good point that i think this thread has come to show, i.e. generally speaking a certain type of person wheather PC or DM is the problem. When people ooc are obnoxious and arrogant the game will generally have poor flow, and poor flow takes away from havign fun and being able to roleplay well. which is most important.

i also find it amusing that there are players who winge about not having high stats or poor roles, bad roles at the most inconvenient times can make for some very fun situations in the game.

Cheers
A friendly Aussie

Matthew
2007-03-16, 06:28 PM
Yes, indeed. That is almost always the case.