Tavern Brawler Build

[Fightmaster]

Some friends and I are playing The Hoard of the Dragon and I was interested in playing an unarmed character. My initial plan was to build a tavern brawler barbarian but I'm not sure how to do so effectively. Can it be done or should I just make a monk?

[EvilAnagram]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is build a variant human fighter who focuses on strength, get the feat that makes you better at brawling, then get the grapple feat, and finally realize that you should have just gone with a monk.

[Yorrin]

It's certainly doable. The Tavern Brawler Barbarian will be tougher, the Monk will be more nimble. Rage damage will offset the monk's higher damage die, so you should be fine there (though monk will usually be getting more attacks). Berserker=offensive choice, totem=defensive choice. One of the main difficulties you'll probably run into is monsters immune/resistant to nonmagical attacks. Work with your DM to try and get some sort of hand-wraps or brass knuckles or something that can be enchanted.

[JamesT]

You can certainly do it, and from a RP perspective I find it intriguing. My only problem with how effective it is has to do with the Grappled condition - the only ill effect is a lack of movement for the grappled creature. It can attack you with no penalty or disadvantage. Not only does this make no sense to me, but it makes a grappler pretty ineffective other than as a single target tank forcing a creature to attack it.

[Giant2005]

Grapple schmapple.
A Barbarian doesn't take Tavern Brawler so it can grapple people, it takes it so it can swing around bear traps as weapons.

[TomPliss]

Fightmaster, how optimized are your friends' characters ?
How agreeable is your DM ?

Ask him : if you get the brawler feat, would he let you use the BattleMaster's maneuvers ? Or the Barbarian's bonus damage ?

When we're talking about non-monk unarmed combat, it's all about what the DM let you do.

[Yorrin]

Grapple schmapple.
A Barbarian doesn't take Tavern Brawler so it can grapple people, it takes it so it can swing around bear traps as weapons.

This. d4 unarmed strike and proficiency in improvised weapons is the point of Tavern Brawler, really that other junk should have been moved over into the Grappler feat...

[JamesT]

Should have made it d6. I really love the flavor but neither of these feats give you much relative to what you could have gotten otherwise.

[Human Paragon 3]

Yeah, I think your idea sounds really fun. Just make good use of the proficiency with improvised weapons to make attacks with every crazy freaking thing you can lift.

As above people have said, barbarian will be tougher and rage bonuses will neutralize the smaller damage die. You should probably also two-weapon fight, since you won't be using your bonus action on anything else most rounds. Just pick up any old thing (a chair, a rock, a branch, an idol of Bast) and attack with it in addition to your fist.

[Sir_Leorik]

Some friends and I are playing The Hoard of the Dragon and I was interested in playing an unarmed character. My initial plan was to build a tavern brawler barbarian but I'm not sure how to do so effectively. Can it be done or should I just make a monk?

It is very doable! I was at a table last night where a player's Human Barbarian used Tavern Brawler to take down a Half-Dragon that my Warlock goaded into fighting the Barbarian in a boxing match. I recommend ignoring the grappling part, unless your enemy has a low Strength and Dexterity.

[JamesT]

If your DM allows a Battle master's maneuvers to work with unarmed strikes, or if you simply pick up a rock as an improvised weapon, Menacing Attack can frighten the target, giving them disadvantage on both the contested grapple attempt and its first attempt to break free. It's also at a disadvantage to hit you. This is a great tanking mechanic.

[Fightmaster]

TomPliss, my group is unoptimized as everyone picked what they thought sounded cool. The DM tends to lean more to the strict side, but he'd let me use the bonus damage and combat master moves if I got the feat or took the fighter levels

[Person_Man]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is build a variant human fighter who focuses on strength, get the feat that makes you better at brawling, then get the grapple feat, and finally realize that you should have just gone with a monk.

It's not a terrible Feat, because it also gives you +1 Str or Con.

But it's basically impossible to do a strong unarmed build unless you're a Monk. This was pointed out to Mearls, and he said that it was intentional, in order to protect the Monk's unarmed niche. Which is silly, because its a purely simulationist niche. Who cares if a player wants to punch people instead of hit them with a great axe? If that's what they want to do, why punish them with severly lower damage output?

Simple house rule fixes this. Unarmed strike by default deals 1d4 damage, and is a Simple Light Finesse weapon. Tavern Brawler does not grant +1 Str or Con, but instead increases your unarmed damage dice by one step (1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12 max), and as normal provides you with improvised weapons proficiency, and allows you to Grapple as a bonus action whenever you hit an enemy with an unarmed strike. Monks get Tavern Brawler as a Bonus Feat at first level.

[CyberThread]

Barbara and monk both have high def in thier own way. I wOuld focus less on the classes and more on the paths that might interest you. I think allot could be said for either classes.

[JamesT]

-Fighter gets you a very useful Menacing Attack plus the usual advantages of being a fighter (armor, action surge, self-healing).
-Barbarian gets you strength advantage while raging.
-Monk gets you better unarmed attacks.

If ever there was a strong case for multiclassing, this is it. Not sure yet how I'd break it down.

[Person_Man]

-Fighter gets you a very useful Menacing Attack plus the usual advantages of being a fighter (armor, action surge, self-healing).
-Barbarian gets you strength advantage while raging.
-Monk gets you better unarmed attacks.

If ever there was a strong case for multiclassing, this is it. Not sure yet how I'd break it down.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that.

Extra Attack class ability doesn't stack.
Unarmored Defense class ability doesn't stack, and is wasted if you're wearing armor.
Being Strength based (Athletics for Grapple, maybe to-hit, maybe armor) makes your build MADer then being Dex based (most common Save, Initiative, maybe to-hit, probably AC). If you're taking 5 or more levels of Monk you also become semi-Wis dependent (Stunning Fist, plus any Ki abilities that require a Save).
The Stunned and Grappled conditions overlap in their effects, but Stunned is better. (Although Grapple is at-will).
Battlemaster Fighter only gets 4 Superiority dice per Short rest (5 at 7th, 6 at 15th). So you wouldn't be able to use Menacing Attack very often.
By multi-classing, you're delaying or denying yourself access to each classes best abilities (Extra Attack 2-3-4, Evasion/Stillness of Mind/Diamond Soul and more Ki points, Feral Instinct/Relentless Rage/Primal Champion).
By using your Bonus Action to Grapple, you're giving up a Bonus Action attack. Immobilizing an enemy next to you is only useful if certain niche situations.


So I'm not quite sure how the three classes would fit together in a way that's better then Fighter 20, Barbarian 20, or Monk 20.

[JamesT]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that.

Extra Attack class ability doesn't stack.
Unarmored Defense class ability doesn't stack, and is wasted if you're wearing armor.
Being Strength based (Athletics for Grapple, maybe to-hit, maybe armor) makes your build MADer then being Dex based (most common Save, Initiative, maybe to-hit, probably AC). If you're taking 5 or more levels of Monk you also become semi-Wis dependent (Stunning Fist, plus any Ki abilities that require a Save).
The Stunned and Grappled conditions overlap in their effects, but Stunned is better. (Although Grapple is at-will).
Battlemaster Fighter only gets 4 Superiority dice per Short rest (5 at 7th, 6 at 15th). So you wouldn't be able to use Menacing Attack very often.
By multi-classing, you're delaying or denying yourself access to each classes best abilities (Extra Attack 2-3-4, Evasion/Stillness of Mind/Diamond Soul and more Ki points, Feral Instinct/Relentless Rage/Primal Champion).
By using your Bonus Action to Grapple, you're giving up a Bonus Action attack. Immobilizing an enemy next to you is only useful if certain niche situations.


So I'm not quite sure how the three classes would fit together in a way that's better then Fighter 20, Barbarian 20, or Monk 20.

They really only fit well together in the way I mentioned. Honestly, I'm just trying to optimize a sub-optimal class or multiclass option, because the flavor is *incredibly* cool IMO. A single level dip into Barbarian goes a long way, maybe 3.

However, it's important to get your feats quickly, and I believe your levels from different classes don't stack as far as getting ability score increases, and thus feats. So that's a problem at least when considering multiclassing early on.

As I said, I haven't looked into this enough to see how I'd break it down, and until I do, I won't really be able to see if it's worthwhile to multiclass.

[numerek]

I thought I would suggest an alternative to the tavern brawler feat. Alter Self, the biggest disadvantage is the concentration, followed by how many times per day you can cast it, but it does give d6 damage at 3rd level + magical + 1 to hit/damage, Monk doesn't get d6 til level 5 and magic till level 6. And beside other concentration spells I only know of archery to give bonuses to hit Unfortunately til 3rd level you don't have many options without MAD getting in the way. Though if you don't mind giving up your proficiency bonus for 2 levels you can beat people to death with your arcane focus as an improvised weapon to stay with the flavor.
Sorcerer you can trade spell slots for more casting of alter self, and draconic give the alternate ac formula and extra hit points. Wizard has a few options, abjuration should allow you to mitigate damage standing on the front line. transmutation can get you constitution saving throw proficiency. Your only other options to get the spell is bard at 6th or 10th, arcane trickster or eldritch knight at 7th.
After you get the spell its up to you to take more spell casting levels or go barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger. They all have things to offer to help out and you will probably want to get extra attack at least once. I still think its ridiculous that they didn't at least give unarmed strike the light property.

[Yorrin]

I thought I would suggest an alternative to the tavern brawler feat. Alter Self, the biggest disadvantage is the concentration, followed by how many times per day you can cast it, but it does give d6 damage at 3rd level + magical + 1 to hit/damage, Monk doesn't get d6 til level 5 and magic till level 6. And beside other concentration spells I only know of archery to give bonuses to hit Unfortunately til 3rd level you don't have many options without MAD getting in the way. Though if you don't mind giving up your proficiency bonus for 2 levels you can beat people to death with your arcane focus as an improvised weapon to stay with the flavor.
Sorcerer you can trade spell slots for more casting of alter self, and draconic give the alternate ac formula and extra hit points. Wizard has a few options, abjuration should allow you to mitigate damage standing on the front line. transmutation can get you constitution saving throw proficiency. Your only other options to get the spell is bard at 6th or 10th, arcane trickster or eldritch knight at 7th.
After you get the spell its up to you to take more spell casting levels or go barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger. They all have things to offer to help out and you will probably want to get extra attack at least once. I still think its ridiculous that they didn't at least give unarmed strike the light property.

Or Master of Myriad Forms invocation at Warlock 15 for true at-will. But alter self is ultimately a pretty lousy choice, since you'll need to make a Con save vs being unarmed every time you are hit.

[numerek]

Another option would be talk to your DM about playing a LizardFolk out of the DM guide. Their bite does d6. I would say from the stats they would be +2 str +1 con, they get a swim speed 30, can hold their breath for 15 minutes. And get alternate ac formula when unarmored 13+dex. I personally don't think this would be a race out of line with the others in the player's handbook unless your talking less powerful. The bite is only better than very few weapons, the swim and breath holding abilities may almost never come up depending on campaign. The alternate ac formula is better than non magical light armor. If you think it is underpowered you could maybe throw in a skill proficiency in perception, stealth, and/or survival or perhaps a +1 wis. I don't think they would have any more issues as far as npc reaction then dragonborn or tieflings. If biting everything wasn't the flavor you were going for you can look further for a humanoid type with a different natural weapon. Perhaps the DM could also say Dragonborn could have a d4 or d6 bite or claws the picture shows a pretty big mouth and claws. Tiefling could have a tail attack.

[TomPliss]

TomPliss, my group is unoptimized as everyone picked what they thought sounded cool. The DM tends to lean more to the strict side, but he'd let me use the bonus damage and combat master moves if I got the feat or took the fighter levels

Then go for it.

Either Barbarian or fighter, with the brawler feat.
I would say Barbarian if you want something more consistent as far as tanking goes and with better damage potential; or fighter if you prefer the utility of the combat maneuvers (I know I do).
And don't forget to have fun, I guess ? :p

[JamesT]

I've been thinking about this build quite a bit. I'm thinking that with both Tavern Brawler and Grappler feats, using your fist plus a shield, you can effectively grapple targets and get advantage against them with attacks. I'm also thinking that a Barbarian is best, both for flavor and for utility. There's nothing quite like a hulking brute coming at you, just using his fists and a small shield.

Once you have them grappled, you can use your shield as an improvised weapon to hit them, which keeps your AC high against a grappled target - which is really the point, right? I mean, given that a grappled target has the choice to either use an action to escape or to hit you, making it harder for them to hit you makes this feature worthwhile.

[Hytheter]

If you wanna fight unarmed without using a feat or Monk levels, you could always by a pair of clubs but reflavour them as brass knuckles or cestus or gauntlets or something like that.

Sometimes a little refluff is all that's needed. :)

edit: wait clubs are only d4 in this edition. Maybe a "flail" and a "club" then. Then two flails if you take the dual wielding feat.

[unwise]

I played a fighter who was a pit fighter and used a meathook as a weapon. It was pretty cool, the improvised weapons rules are very generous, a lump of wood can do the same a mace, a meathook can do the same as a warpick etc. The limiting factor in this is the fact that most people are no proficient in them. With the Tavern Brawler feat, you can use something vaguely swordlike as if it really were a sword.

Anyway, I found the ability to attack and autograpple very powerful combined with the Grappler abilities. He absolutely locked NPCs down. This was especially awesome when he got two attacks on the one guy, first attack Grapples them, the second knocks them prone and pins them there. This also worked well with the Battlemaster knockdowns and disarms. You disarm a guy, then grapple him and he cannot get to his weapon to pick it up anymore. If you knock him down, he cannot get up, he has disadvantage, you are OK and all your friends have advantage.

Personally I think it is a very power combo and a great theme for a character. If you go fighter, you will of course have to dip into Barbarian or Monk to get the unarmored defence. When I did that, it was under the old rules where any 5 levels in a combat class gave you the extra attack.

[MustacheFart]

Since the idea of multiclassing barbarian and monk has come up in this thread, I thought I would mention this: Make sure to check with your DM first because he may have preconceived notions of what a Monk is and/or a Barbarian is—deciding that, like in 3.5, they don't belong together.

Even though they removed the lawful/nonlawful stipulations some DMs obviously have this idea of what a monk is and it just won't jive for them being comboed with barbarian. Unfortunately, this happened to me in my HOTDQ game. I had a character with a very neat concept much like yours but it was poopoo'ed on, not because it was ridiculously strong, but because Monks are "highly-trained, highly-controlled martial artists" and barbarians are "uncontrollable raving monsters"...

Here's my thread to read about it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369620-Barbarian-Monk-Multiclass-build


Just food for thought. I'd hate to see someone get screwed like I had.

[JamesT]

If you can come up with a good RP concept, I see no reason why a DM should ever override your character.

FYI, there's a guide up on the official forums now for Brawler builds, and it's very good.

I didn't realize it, but you can knock a grappled creature prone, and since standing up requires using your movement, and since the grappled condition sets a creature's movement to zero, that creature can't stand up.

Not only that, but with two free hands, you can grapple and make prone two different creatures.

[Hytheter]

If you can come up with a good RP concept, I see no reason why a DM should ever override your character.

FYI, there's a guide up on the official forums now for Brawler builds, and it's very good.

I didn't realize it, but you can knock a grappled creature prone, and since standing up requires using your movement, and since the grappled condition sets a creature's movement to zero, that creature can't stand up.

Not only that, but with two free hands, you can grapple and make prone two different creatures.

I'm laughing

this is so hilarious I love it