Shields, Fighters and Capt. America... Attacking with shield questions...

[wolfstone]

Okay, while researching on creating a Fighter, I found an interesting Item called Throwing Shield, and instantly thought 'It's Cap's Shield!' I also had a weird idea for a 2 Throwing Shield character, baring one on each arm (I know I can only attack with a single shield per turn, unless I waste my AP). Is it possible to use 2 shields, and if so, does the AC and REF bonus count for only one, or for both?

Here's the attacking text for the Throwing Shield's attack power:

Power At-Will (Standard Action)

Make an attack: Ranged 10; Strength + 2 vs. AC; on a hit, the target takes 1d8 + Strength modifier damage. The shield automatically returns to your grip after the attack.

Level 16: Strength + 4 vs. AC; 2d8 + Strength modifier damage.

Level 26: Strength + 6 vs. AC; 3d8 + Strength modifier damage.

As far as the TS power goes, I had a few questions on this and possibly on Fighter powers that use sheilds. For the STR + 2/4/6, do you also add your half level on the attack roll? Say a Lvl. 6 Character with 21 Strength attacks with the Throwing Shield. Would it be 3 (1/2 lvl. + 5 (STR Mod) + 2 for a total atk bonus of +10? Would the half level also apply to Fighter powers that use a shield to attack with?

[Epinephrine]

Okay, while researching on creating a Fighter, I found an interesting Item called Throwing Shield, and instantly thought 'It's Cap's Shield!' I also had a weird idea for a 2 Throwing Shield character, baring one on each arm (I know I can only attack with a single shield per turn, unless I waste my AP). Is it possible to use 2 shields, and if so, does the AC and REF bonus count for only one, or for both?

Most characters derive no benefit from a second shield.
There is a Paragon Path (Snapping Tetsudo) that specialisesa in fighting with two shields. That paragon path does benefit from it.



I had a few questions on this and possibly on Fighter powers that use sheilds. For the STR + 2/4/6, do you also add your half level on the attack roll? Say a Lvl. 6 Character with 21 Strength attacks with the Throwing Shield. Would it be 3 (1/2 lvl. + 5 (STR Mod) + 2 for a total atk bonus of +10? Would the half level also apply to Fighter powers that use a shield to attack with?

Yes, you add your half level as usual. The issue with that attack power is that it's not very accurate, and there aren't really ways to improve it. Normally you have your half level, your stat modifier (e.g., Strength), the enhancement bonus of the weapon or implement, probably a feat bonus of some sort, and for weapon based attacks (typically AC-target) a weapon proficiency bonus. This power doesn't get an enhancement bonus from the weapon (instead getting a +2/4/6), and as it lacks the "weapon" keyword I'm not sure that you could get weapon expertise bonus with it by RAW (though I'd allow it as a DM). You also don't get a proficiency bonus (again, I could be convinced to add one if you have a proficiency bonus with your shield in general). In paragon you'll be 4 points or so less accurate than you should be unless the DM is flexible.

ETA:
If you want to be able to routinely attack with your shield with fighter powers that are NOT shield powers, you need something like a Fighting Shield. There are a variety of these, the basic Fighting Shield is fine (one of them counts as an axe, another as a heavy blade, I can't remember them all). Since each magic shield that doubles as a weapon is only available at one enchantment level (so, one might only be a level 8 item) you want a way to scale the power, this can be accomplished via DM fiat, or by a campaign using inherent bonuses, or by a Ki Focus. I like the Ki Focus approach, it is from what I can tell perfectly legal in any campaign, so you simply need to either multiclass to get the ability to use a Ki Focus, or to take a theme that grants it (Elemental Initiate, IIRC). A Spiked shield could otherwise be used, but they only count as light shields, and I believe light blades).

[wolfstone]

Most characters derive no benefit from a second shield.
There is a Paragon Path (Snapping Tetsudo) that specialisesa in fighting with two shields. That paragon path does benefit from it.




Yes, you add your half level as usual. The issue with that attack power is that it's not very accurate, and there aren't really ways to improve it. Normally you have your half level, your stat modifier (e.g., Strength), the enhancement bonus of the weapon or implement, probably a feat bonus of some sort, and for weapon based attacks (typically AC-target) a weapon proficiency bonus. This power doesn't get an enhancement bonus from the weapon (instead getting a +2/4/6), and as it lacks the "weapon" keyword I'm not sure that you could get weapon expertise bonus with it by RAW (though I'd allow it as a DM). You also don't get a proficiency bonus (again, I could be convinced to add one if you have a proficiency bonus with your shield in general). In paragon you'll be 4 points or so less accurate than you should be unless the DM is flexible.

ETA:
If you want to be able to routinely attack with your shield with fighter powers that are NOT shield powers, you need something like a Fighting Shield. There are a variety of these, the basic Fighting Shield is fine (one of them counts as an axe, another as a heavy blade, I can't remember them all). Since each magic shield that doubles as a weapon is only available at one enchantment level (so, one might only be a level 8 item) you want a way to scale the power, this can be accomplished via DM fiat, or by a campaign using inherent bonuses, or by a Ki Focus. I like the Ki Focus approach, it is from what I can tell perfectly legal in any campaign, so you simply need to either multiclass to get the ability to use a Ki Focus, or to take a theme that grants it (Elemental Initiate, IIRC). A Spiked shield could otherwise be used, but they only count as light shields, and I believe light blades).

Found the PP: Snapping Testudo, but you only get an extra +1 defense for using 2 shields. The powers also require 2 shields.

[wolfstone]

ETA:
If you want to be able to routinely attack with your shield with fighter powers that are NOT shield powers, you need something like a Fighting Shield. There are a variety of these, the basic Fighting Shield is fine (one of them counts as an axe, another as a heavy blade, I can't remember them all). Since each magic shield that doubles as a weapon is only available at one enchantment level (so, one might only be a level 8 item) you want a way to scale the power, this can be accomplished via DM fiat, or by a campaign using inherent bonuses, or by a Ki Focus. I like the Ki Focus approach, it is from what I can tell perfectly legal in any campaign, so you simply need to either multiclass to get the ability to use a Ki Focus, or to take a theme that grants it (Elemental Initiate, IIRC). A Spiked shield could otherwise be used, but they only count as light shields, and I believe light blades).


How, exactly, would this work? It sounds interesting, but not sure what exactly, to do to make it a 'legal' player mechanic. I would go with the Fighting Shield or Sun Shield, which count as heavy blades. (I'm not too familiar with tweaks like this, which is why I ask what to look for to make this work).

[Epinephrine]

How, exactly, would this work? It sounds interesting, but not sure what exactly, to do to make it a 'legal' player mechanic. I would go with the Fighting Shield or Sun Shield, which count as heavy blades. (I'm not too familiar with tweaks like this, which is why I ask what to look for to make this work).

Well, the Ki focus allows you to use its enhancement instead of the enhancement on the weapon; wielding a Fighting Shield it would still be a heavy blade, but you could choose to either attack with it as a +1 Fighting Shield, or a +X Fighting Shield, with X being the bonus from the ki focus. This would not work with the throwing shield, as it isn't wielded as a weapon, but instead has a power that can be used at-will, with defined stats based on the level of the item.

Basically the ki focus allows you to override the enhancement bonus of a weapon you are holding and the enhancement effect. I believe that the fighting shield could still be used as a heavy blade with a +3 proficiency, but would have the enchancement bonus, effect, and critical dice of the ki focus. Either Heavy Blade expertise or ki focus expertise could be used with it.

[Sol]

How, exactly, would this work? It sounds interesting, but not sure what exactly, to do to make it a 'legal' player mechanic. I would go with the Fighting Shield or Sun Shield, which count as heavy blades. (I'm not too familiar with tweaks like this, which is why I ask what to look for to make this work).

If you have proficiency in Ki Focuses (Which you can obtain by hybriding or MCing with the Monk, Assassin, or Vampire, or via the Elemental Initiate theme), you can use the enhancement bonus, critical dice, and properties of your Ki Focus in place of the enhancement bonus, critical dice, and properties of your weapon.

The interesting bit here is when you try and apply that ruleset to a Magical Shield that has a property which states it can be used as a weapon -- because when you use a Ki focus in place of that weapon's attack dice, it overwrites its properties, and thus is just a shield and can no longer be used as a weapon.

I suspect most DMs would allow it, under the reading that the ki focus overwrites the "weapon"'s properties, rather than the shield's.

[Kimera757]

Instead of adding bonuses to hit, I would do the following:

Treat this shield as a +2 proficiency weapon.

Treat this shield as a magic weapon (state bonus).

I've found this kind of thing doesn't work well with inherent bonuses and numerous other corner cases as it's moving too far from the rules.

A fighter with a +1 throwing shield would have the same kind of attack bonuses as if they were using a +1 weapon. I'm not sure what you would do about Expertise though :(