Intellect Devourer Preview! And ... uh ... well ... [Archive]

obryn

2014-09-11, 03:26 PM

...I hope you love CR2 creatures that can immediately drop any character with low intelligence (i.e. non-wizard), then kill them and ride them around like a big fleshy mecha?

Devour Intellect. The intellect devourer targets one creature
it can see within 10 feet of it that has a brain. The target must
succeed on a DC 12 Intelligence saving throw against this
magic or take 11 (2d10) psychic damage. Also on a failure,
roll 3d6: If the total equals or exceeds the target’s Intelligence
score, that score is reduced to 0. The target is stunned until it
regains at least one point of Intelligence.

Body Thief. The intellect devourer initiates an Intelligence
contest with an incapacitated humanoid within 5 feet of it. If
it wins the contest, the intellect devourer magically consumes
the target’s brain, teleports into the target’s skull, and takes
control of the target’s body. While inside a creature, the
intellect devourer has total cover against attacks and other
effects originating outside its host. The intellect devourer
retains its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as
well as its understanding of Deep Speech, its telepathy, and
its traits. It otherwise adopts the target’s statistics. It knows
everything the creature knew, including spells and languages.
If the host body drops to 0 hit points, the intellect devourer
must leave it. A protection from evil and good spell cast on the
body drives the intellect devourer out. The intellect devourer
is also forced out if the target regains its devoured brain by
means of a wish. By spending 5 feet of its movement, the
intellect devourer can voluntarily leave the body, teleporting to
the nearest unoccupied space within 5 feet of it. The body then
dies, unless its brain is restored within 1 round.

CR2, folks. CR2. But um - hey, look, an Int save!

obryn

2014-09-11, 03:31 PM

Scenario 1: Bob Fighter is 2nd level. He has a -1 to Int saves. He fails this save 60% of the time. He then fails the 3d6 roll 74% of the time. 44% of the time, on round 1, Bob Fighter drops.

The rest of the party bashes away at Mr. Devourer, but whoops! He's a CR2 creature with Resistance to nonmagic weapons, and also just dropped the Fighter. Bob Fighter's brain gets sucked out.

Scenario 2: Bob Fighter is 20th level. He has a -1 to Int saves. He fails this sa... wait a sec, it's exactly the same scenario.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 03:36 PM

Well, so much for failing a CR-appropriate saving throw being tolerable for the player. The save granting feats are now officially taxes.

BRC

2014-09-11, 03:37 PM

Not quite.

If I'm reading it right, the first ability can STUN a target.

So, the Intellect Devourer attacks, Bob the fighter fails his save, then fails the Int roll. He is stunned, and takes 2d10 Psychic Damage. Bob is now a drooling idiot until somebody gives him some INT back (Somehow...at as low as 2nd level).

However, I don't think Stunned means Incapacitated. The Devourer can only replace the brain of an INCAPACITATED target. The Devourer needs to keep spamming it's attack until Bob runs out of health (Although he will fail his save just about every round). Only Then can it jump in his brain.

So yeah, still broken, but not quite AS broken.

Nevermind, Stunned is Incapcitated. All Hail the Meat Robot Overlords.

obryn

2014-09-11, 03:39 PM

Well, so much for failing a CR-appropriate saving throw being tolerable for the player. The save granting feats are now officially taxes.
What's hilarious is, check out the levels of the spells suggested as counter-measures.

No, really, go ahead and check. And remember it's CR2.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 03:46 PM

What's hilarious is, check out the levels of the spells suggested as counter-measures.

No, really, go ahead and check. And remember it's CR2.

Well, look at the positive side of it! Now you can... err... have a second level group somehow discover a ring of three wishes and have something non-game breaking to use it on?

Seriously, that hing is brutal. Is there a full stat block somewhere? Does it have five hit points?

BRC

2014-09-11, 03:48 PM

Well, look at the positive side of it! Now you can... err... have a second level group somehow discover a ring of three wishes and have something non-game breaking to use it on?

Seriously, that hing is brutal. Is there a full stat block somewhere? Does it have five hit points?

http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/MM_IntellectDevourer.pdf

Nope, 21 HP, and resistance to nonmagical weapons (Because Level 2 parties are famous for having magic weapons...)

Basically, hope you have a ton of casters to gang up on this thing

Shadow

2014-09-11, 03:49 PM

BRC

2014-09-11, 03:52 PM

So it has 21 HP, and an AC of 12.
Resistance to physical damage makes that 21 effectively 42 HP.
On round one it attacks and most likely takes a big dumb meat shield out of the fight.
On round two it enters the big dumb meat shield's mind.
You have two rounds to bring it down if you beat its initiative, and one round if you don't.
If someone has Prot.evil/good prepped than the time limit is extended.

A full party at level 2 should be able to dish out 31 damage (physical & magic combo average) in two rounds (or longer)
Doesn't sonud like a problem to me.
You mean 42 Damage.

And they don't have two rounds, they have ONE round.
Assuming they all go first.

Because that first attack has a good chance of dropping the fighter. They might be able to kill it before it makes a meat puppet, but the fighter is still permastunned until they restore his intelligence somehow.
They have TWO rounds until they need a Wish spell.

Metahuman1

2014-09-11, 03:53 PM

That's, that's trusting luck of the dice as a balancing mechanic. That's horrible game design.

This thing is a melee exclusive version of that damn crab form 3e era.

Though: This just occurred to me. Either this thing is meant to be a throw back to pre 3e era when monsters often did kill you every damn time you got in a fight. Or, this is how Wizards of the Coast are gonna get freaking away with kicking the mundanes in the teeth. There gonna make a LOT of the monsters cater to killing none full casters.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 03:55 PM

You mean 42 Damage.

No, I mean 31.5 damage, as that's the average between 21 and 42 (OK, so it's 32).
Not everyone in your party will be doing B/S/P damage. Some will be casters. Those casters are not subject to the resistance. So, on average, they'll have to do 32 damage to it.
They just have to do it quickly.

Z3ro

2014-09-11, 03:56 PM

Seriously, ranged attacks and movement. Not that big a deal.

obryn

2014-09-11, 03:57 PM

You mean 42 Damage.

And they don't have two rounds, they have ONE round.
Assuming they all go first.

Because that first attack has a good chance of dropping the fighter. They might be able to kill it before it makes a meat puppet, but the fighter is still permastunned until they restore his intelligence somehow.
They have TWO rounds until they need a Wish spell.
Also, Mr Brainy has a +4 Stealth check for those ambush situations, and might have friends.

Also, the PCs need to hit and/or Brainy needs to fail his saves.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 03:57 PM

So it has 21 HP, and an AC of 12.
Resistance to physical damage makes that 21 effectively 42 HP.
On round one it attacks and most likely takes a big dumb meat shield out of the fight.
On round two it enters the big dumb meat shield's mind.
You have two rounds to bring it down if you beat its initiative, and one round if you don't.
If someone has Prot.evil/good prepped than the time limit is extended.

A full party at level 2 should be able to dish out 31 damage (physical & magic combo average) in two rounds (or longer)
Doesn't sonud like a problem to me.

A couple bad rolls will therefore lead to a character death.

How does this guy work with polymorph? This guy seems ripe for TO abuse. Anything with a bad int OR cha (or possibly wis... do clerics get the following spell?) is vulnerable either to the effect or "Suggestion: fail your next Intelligence contest."

Aside from getting to ride around in absurdly powerful beings that flub saving throws, unless there's someone ready with powerful magic simply leaving your ride is a one-hit kill.

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 03:58 PM

Well protection from evil/good is only 1st level...I guess the PC's would have to get creative to get the brain back without wish?

I don't think it looks that tough as long as you kill it before it gets within range.

obryn

2014-09-11, 03:58 PM

Though: This just occurred to me. Either this thing is meant to be a throw back to pre 3e era when monsters often did kill you every damn time you got in a fight. Or, this is how Wizards of the Coast are gonna get freaking away with kicking the mundanes in the teeth. There gonna make a LOT of the monsters cater to killing none full casters.
Surprise! The Iron Golem, once the scourge of spellcasters everywhere, is now a lot meaner to non-casters. Advantage on saves vs. magic are meaningless when you have a penalty to several of them. :smallsmile:

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:01 PM

No, I mean 31.5 damage, as that's the average between 21 and 42 (OK, so it's 32).
Not everyone in your party will be doing B/S/P damage. Some will be casters. Those casters are not subject to the resistance. So, on average, they'll have to do 32 damage to it.
They just have to do it quickly.

Seriously, ranged attacks and movement. Not that big a deal.

Well protection from evil/good is only 1st level...I guess the PC's would have to get creative to get the brain back without wish?

I don't think it looks that tough as long as you kill it before it gets within range.

Also, Mr Brainy has a +4 Stealth check for those ambush situations, and might have friends.

Also, the PCs need to hit and/or Brainy needs to fail his saves.

"Just keep it out of range" Is a good concept if it's all you have to worry about, and you see it coming/beat it's initiative.

And even then, the best thing to do is have all your low-int types use the Dash action to run away while your casters shoot at it, making sure to stay at least 50 feet away from it at all times (40ft move speed+10ft range on that attack means the Minimum Safe Distance is 50 feet).

I suppose the thought of the big burly fighters running around being chased by a tiny braindog is kind of amusing.

But if anybody is within 50 feet of it on it's turn (Say, from winning initiative or a surprise round), they can get taken out of the fight with a single roll.

Edit: it IS totally blind beyond a 60ft radius. So if you can get out of that range and stand still, you're safe.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 04:03 PM

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:03 PM

Then you have to take into account that it wouldn't want to immediately jump out of the big dumb meat shield's body. That body protects it, fully. It's basically immune to damage until that body dies.
Why would it want to leave it's safe haven when there are creatures waiting to kill it? Int 12 means not stupid.

So realistically, you just need to stall until a prot.evil/good can be cast on it, or you'll have to force it out.
And a CR2 creature with these kinds of abilities isn't the kind of thing that you just blunder into at CR2. You should have an idea what you're getting into, and have spells prepped appropriately.

I still fail to see the huge problem. Sure, it'll be a tough fight. But it's not an insta-gib like people seem to think.

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:05 PM

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 04:07 PM

Do you think a DM would let you be safe from body thief if the target already has protection from evil/good on it?

Of course then you'd have to still win initiative and not be surprised.

I think there will probably be lots of extra deadly monsters in this edition though, or that's the impression this guy got. (http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2014/09/10/review-monster-manual-for-dungeons-dragons-5th-edition/)

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:07 PM

I guess the PC's would have to get creative to get the brain back without wish?

The intellect devourer initiates an Intelligence
contest with an incapacitated humanoid within 5 feet of it. If
it wins the contest, the intellect devourer magically consumes
the target’s brain...
How do you get creative about that. It makes it seem like the brain disappears. I would've understood it if you had to beat the fighter senseless so it pops out and then you can finish killing it but, as it stands, if you fail one save you are a vegetable for at least the rest of the fight and you die on the next round. Note that you automatically fail intelligence contests.

Even if this thing goes after the wizard, which is the best option you can hope for, they still only have a 70% chance of making their save at second level at best. At least it doesn't drain intelligence partially. It's just an all-or-nothing deal but... how long do you take to recover if it drains your intellect? How do you regain a point of intelligence?

Also notice that two CR 2 creatures are supposed to be just a slightly difficult encounter for a four-person second level group.

Edit: Oh, look:

Detect Sentience. The intellect devourer can sense the
presence and location of any creature within 300 feet of it that
has an Intelligence of 3 or higher, regardless of interposing
barriers, unless the creature is protected by a mind blank spell.
Good luck approaching that without it setting an ambush for you. It will sense you long before you have a chance to see it and it's good at hiding.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:08 PM

So we have a great reason not to min/max your character with 16s, 10s and 8s. And if you choose to anyway, then this is the risk you run.
I'm totally fine with that.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 04:08 PM

Wait... I got it. This guy is the edition's way to compensate for INT being such a miserable stat at character creation for everyone but Wizards. Sure you don't get bonus skills or languages, but you DO have a much better chance of getting to fourth level if you don't dump INT.

Surrealistik

2014-09-11, 04:08 PM

Well hey, on the plus side, at least Intelligence saves now have value outside of a scant handful of illusion spells, amiright? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Ninjaed; literally by seconds, lol.

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 04:09 PM

How do you get creative about that. It makes it seem like the brain disappears. I would've understood it if you had to beat the fighter senseless so it pops out and then you can finish killing it but, as it stands, if you fail one save you are a vegetable for at least the rest of the fight and you die on the next round. Note that you automatically fail intelligence contests.

Even if this thing goes after the wizard, which is the best option you can hope for, they still only have a 70% chance of making their save at second level at best. At least it doesn't drain intelligence partially. It's just an all-or-nothing deal but... how long do you take to recover if it drains your intellect? How do you regain a point of intelligence?

Also notice that two CR 2 creatures are supposed to be just a slightly difficult encounter for a four-person second level group.

I was making light of it slightly... sorry if that offended your sensibilities.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:11 PM

I was making light of it slightly... sorry if that offended your sensibilities.

I might've overreacted. I'll just continue being excessively upset by the creature now if you don't mind :smallbiggrin:

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 04:19 PM

Maybe there will be one of these for each of the stats so you can screw over all character archetypes equally. You have the Soul devourer (wis), heart devourer (con), might devourer (str), primary sexual characteristic devourer (cha, also joke), and... finger... devourer? IDK, something for dex. Maybe the strength devourer can take the place of the target's largest muscle group (butt and upper leg?) and the dex devourer takes the target's hands.

The things aren't actually monsters, they're a way to protect characters at upper levels. Once you've been completely replaced by attribute devourers your character is basically indistinguishable from his original self, except that when slain he splits up into six pieces and flees somewhere to hide and reform. This is actually D&D: Voltron Edition.

akaddk

2014-09-11, 04:20 PM

That's horrible game design.

I really wish people would stop saying this. Saying, "I think it's horrible game design," is fine, saying "That's horrible game design," is not. It's also absurd.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 04:24 PM

Bob the Fighter can still win the intelligence contest with the thing (albeit with a -5 int modifier) and avoid being consumed. Additionally, you're assuming a -1 int mod for Bob the Fighter. An int of more than 8 both lets you resist the original attack better and makes it less likely that the 3d6 int damage won't take you to 0.

Also, the party could grapple the thing and drag it away - it's Tiny size (meaning you can drag it away at your full speed).

So, yes, one of these creatures will, some of the time, kill off a fighter who specifically dump-statted Int. And your party doesn't think to drag it away (granted, that would require a knowledge check to know what it can do). And the fighter rolls poorly, twice. And the devourer rolls at least average on his 3d6. And the party is unable to either kill it or delay it. And it manages to start combat in melee range. And the party doesn't learn of its existence until it's within 60 feet (as after that it's blind).

That's a whole lot of "if"s. And consider that it's a pretty weak monster with very little chance of meaningfully harming a party EXCEPT by hitting people who have weak int saves and devouring them quickly.

I really wish people would stop saying this. Saying, "I think it's horrible game design," is fine, saying "That's horrible game design," is not. It's also absurd.

I don't believe for a second that every time you express an opinion you prepend "I think" to it. Of course "this is horrible game design" is an opinion. It's understood to be his opinion by virtue of the fact that he said it.

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:24 PM

I really wish people would stop saying this. Saying, "I think it's horrible game design," is fine, saying "That's horrible game design," is not. It's also absurd.

I think one can assume somebody is stating their opinion in situations like this.

If I bite into a cheeseburger, and say "This is a good cheeseburger", do I need to be rebuked for not saying "I think this is a good cheeseburger", or can you assume that I'm stating an opinion, rather than trying to lay down a universal truth.

I agree that the Intellect Devourer is a poorly designed monster, since it can easily incapacitate or even kill a character with only two dice rolls (Neither of which need to be extremes. A slightly-below-average Int save can make you fail without a heafty int bonus, and a slightly-above-average 3d6 roll can take down somebody with 10 or 12 intelligence).

If you disagree, state your reasons.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:29 PM

Bob the Fighter can still win the intelligence contest with the thing (albeit with a -5 int modifier)...

Ahhh, no. You get -5 if you had 1 int. With 0 int (which is what it does) you automatically fail.

And I still haven't gotten an answer on the one aspect that no one has discussed so far- how long does it take to recover your intelligence? Will that fighter be out of commission until the next long rest? For over a week? Until the party gains access to fourth level magic?

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:30 PM

If you disagree, state your reasons.

People laugh at anyone with a negative Con mod, but no one ever laughs when any, and I mean any other stat gets dumped.
Well, now it's time to start laughing.
That's not horrible game design. That's abso-luckin-footly amazing game design.

Well done on the intellect devourer, WotC!

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:31 PM

In Cons defense, never being the dump stat is the only thing it has going for it :smallwink:

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:32 PM

People laugh at anyone with a negative Con mod, but no one ever laughs when any, and I mean any other stat gets dumped.
Well, now it's time to start laughing.
That's not horrible game design. That's abso-luckin-footly amazing game design.

Well done on the intellect devourer, WotC!

Define "Dumped".

Because this thing STILL has a decent chance of dropping somebody with 10 or 12 Intelligence. Sure it's not as guaranteed, but it just takes two mildly unlucky rolls to take a character of any level out of the fight.

At that point you're just punishing everybody who isn't playing an int-based caster.

It's ALSO bad game design to force players to prepare for every possible specific instance.

Punishing players for poor Con is different. Almost every monster deals damage, and so any player who does not prepare to take damage should be stupid.

Very few monsters can one-shot a low-int character, so dumping Int isn't as obvious a stupid idea.

If being one-shot by a CR2 monster is appropriate penalty for dumping a stat, you're not discouraging min-maxxing. You're Forcing everybody to get 14s in everything so as to avoid the DM's petty wrath.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:33 PM

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 04:34 PM

Ahhh, no. You get -5 if you had 1 int. With 0 int (which is what it does) you automatically fail.

Where does it say this? I haven't read a rule that says that you don't get to make checks if you have 0 in a score. I'm extrapolating from the MM Entry that you can because it specifically calls out that the victim gets to make an int check.

Because this thing STILL has a decent chance of dropping somebody with 10 or 12 Intelligence. Sure it's not as guaranteed, but it just takes two mildly unlucky rolls to take a character of any level out of the fight.

At that point you're just punishing everybody who isn't playing an int-based caster.

How is this different than an monster getting a couple lucky attack/damage rolls and dropping a character?

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:35 PM

At that point you're just punishing everybody who isn't playing an int-based caster.

You mean like AoEs are going to punish everyone that isn't a Dex based character?
Or maybe you mean like charms are going to punish everyone that isn't a Wisdom based character?
Or maybe you mean like social interactoins are going to punish everyone that isn't a Cha based character?

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:36 PM

Where does it say this? I haven't read a rule that says that you don't get to make checks if you have 0 in a score. I'm extrapolating from the MM Entry that you can because it specifically calls out that the victim gets to make an int check.

Yes but that entry doesn't assume the devourer is what incapacitated it. A devourer can just sneak up on the group and swap brains with the sleeping fighter without anyone knowing.

Edit:

How is this different than an monster getting a couple lucky attack/damage rolls and dropping a character?

Because that just drops you to 0 hit points and it is easy to get back from that. The devourer eats your brain making it impossible to bring you back without level 9 magic.

Soras Teva Gee

2014-09-11, 04:37 PM

I guess sometimes it actually does pay off to not be a moron. :roy:

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:40 PM

You mean like AoEs are going to punish everyone that isn't a Dex based character?
Or maybe you mean like charms are going to punish everyone that isn't a Wisdom based character?
Or maybe you mean like social interactoins are going to punish everyone that isn't a Cha based character?
There is a big difference.

...okay, a bigger difference with Dex and Social interactions than with the Charms example.

If you have a low dex, and go up against somebody with AoE, the fight is more difficult for you. If you have low cha but need to do some social rolls, those rolls are more difficult for you. You have to work harder, or be better prepared, show up to the fight with more hit points, or the social encounter with bribe money.

If you have low int and go up against an intellect devourer, you can be taken out of the fight in a single action, regardless of anything else.

An Intellect Devourer isn't a "If you have low ____, you're going to have a hard time with this".

It's "ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE AND ARE NOT WIZARDS"

Intellect Devourer is a CR2 with an int-based Save or Lose.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 04:41 PM

Yes but that entry doesn't assume the devourer is what incapacitated it. A devourer can just sneak up on the group and swap brains with the sleeping fighter without anyone knowing.

Where does it say that you don't get to make an ability check if you have 0 in that ability score?

Because that just drops you to 0 hit points and it is easy to get back from that. The devourer eats your brain making it impossible to bring you back without level 9 magic.

You could still just as easily die.

It's "ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE AND ARE NOT WIZARDS"

Your chance of getting taken out of the fight entirely are actually pretty low even if you're just a fighter with 12 int.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:44 PM

It's "ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE AND ARE NOT WIZARDS"

.... Or are not rogues. Or are not the one getting attacked, because while the ID is not dumb, it doesn't understand what you're saying, and therefore doesn't know who not to attack. It's going to be random. And even then there are a lot of scenarios in which this could play out with no one getting thier brain immediately and irrevocably eaten.

The sky is not falling.

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:44 PM

Your chance of getting taken out of the fight entirely are actually pretty low even if you're just a fighter with 12 int.

I'm just opposed to Save-or-Lose abilities of any sort.

Barring extreme circumstances (Extremely high/low rolls (Like big crits), massive power imbalance, conditions outside the ability itself), nobody should be able to go from full power to out of the fight in a single roll.

obryn

2014-09-11, 04:45 PM

So we have a great reason not to min/max your character with 16s, 10s and 8s. And if you choose to anyway, then this is the risk you run.
I'm totally fine with that.
The default array assumes you have one score of 8. You're dumping something. "The vampire charmed you? That's the risk you run for low Wis, you min-maxer." "The ghost possessed you? That's the risk you run for dumping Charisma, you min-maxer."

Bob the Fighter can still win the i ntelligence contest with the thing (albeit with a -5 int modifier) and avoid being consumed. Additionally, you're assuming a -1 int mod for Bob the Fighter. An int of more than 8 both lets you resist the original attack better and makes it less likely that the 3d6 int damage won't take you to 0.
...
So, yes, one of these creatures will, some of the time, kill off a fighter who specifically dump-statted Int. And your party doesn't think to drag it away (granted, that would require a knowledge check to know what it can do). And the fighter rolls poorly, twice. And the devourer rolls at least average on his 3d6. And the party is unable to either kill it or delay it. And it manages to start combat in melee range. And the party doesn't learn of its existence until it's within 60 feet (as after that it's blind).
...
That's a whole lot of "if"s. And consider that it's a pretty weak monster with very little chance of meaningfully harming a party EXCEPT by hitting people who have weak int saves and devouring them quickly.
How unlikely is it that your Fighter dump-statted Intelligence, really?

It's not as unlikely as you'd think either.

Devourer is in an ogre or something. Party wails away at Ogre. ID hops out for 5' movement, stunlocks Fighter. Party tries to kill ID; gotta deal all that damage in 1 round, guys. Devourer auto-wins contest because Int 0 = you fail.

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 04:46 PM

There is a big difference.

...okay, a bigger difference with Dex and Social interactions than with the Charms example.

If you have a low dex, and go up against somebody with AoE, the fight is more difficult for you. If you have low cha but need to do some social rolls, those rolls are more difficult for you. You have to work harder, or be better prepared, show up to the fight with more hit points, or the social encounter with bribe money.

If you have low int and go up against an intellect devourer, you can be taken out of the fight in a single action, regardless of anything else.

An Intellect Devourer isn't a "If you have low ____, you're going to have a hard time with this".

It's "ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE AND ARE NOT WIZARDS"

Intellect Devourer is a CR2 with an int-based Save or Lose.

Actually no it isn't, if you like in those other situations come prepared (with Protection from Evil and Good already on the low int folks) the devourer won't be able to use Body Thief on them, although it can still do ability damage I guess.

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:49 PM

Actually no it isn't, if you like in those other situations come prepared (with Protection from Evil and Good already on the low int folks) the devourer won't be able to use Body Thief on them, although it can still do ability damage I guess.
The ability damage alone takes you out of the fight until you can get it restored, which is not a minor undertaking at low levels.

Also, nowhere does it say Protection from Evil and Good STOPS Body Thief. CASTING it on somebody who has had their brain eaten drives the Devourer out (But leaves them one round away from death unless somebody can Wish up a new Brain). Nowhere does it say the Devourer cannot eat the brains of somebody under that effect.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:50 PM

Where does it say that you don't get to make an ability check if you have 0 in that ability score?
Ability modifiers are only defined for abilities between 1 and 30 in the PHB. I am too lazy to look through the whole chapter to find whether it says it there or is left for the DMG, but you at the very least have an undefined ability modifier. 1d20 + NaN = NaN.

You could still just as easily die.
Case of devourer: Automatically kills you and are not ressurectable without level 9 spell.
Case of damage: Get a significantly better than even chance of recovering without any assistance and give your allies an average of 4.5 and a minimum of 3 rounds to come to your aid. Skill checks, cantrips and first level spells are all capable of saving you.

Your chance of getting taken out of the fight entirely are actually pretty low even if you're just a fighter with 12 int.
A character with 12 intelligence and no proficiency has a 50% chance to fail the save and 37.5% of being drained outright for a total of 18.75% to be taken out of commission for the next two weeks by the creature's first attack. That attack is virtually guaranteed to happen from surprise for the whole group so it is very likely the devourer will get to multiattack a second time before the party even acts.

Edit: Shadow, it reads everyone's minds so it knows exactly what people are thinking.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:52 PM

Devourer is in an ogre or something. Party wails away at Ogre. ID hops out for 5' movement, stunlocks Fighter. Party tries to kill ID; gotta deal all that damage in 1 round, guys. Devourer auto-wins contest because Int 0 = you fail.

If you're facing an ID in the body of an Ogre, you're well beyond the deadly range for an encounter at level 2, and therefore you are not level 2. So getting that damage in becomes a cake walk, probably.

12owlbears

2014-09-11, 04:53 PM

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:54 PM

If you're facing an ID in the body of an Ogre, you're well beyond the deadly range for an encounter at level 2, and therefore you are not level 2. So getting that damage in becomes a cake walk, probably.

How about a Goblin, or a commoner. It can hide in any body with no real way for you to know that you need to keep your fighters 45 feet away.

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 04:54 PM

Also, nowhere does it say Protection from Evil and Good STOPS Body Thief. CASTING it on somebody who has had their brain eaten drives the Devourer out (But leaves them one round away from death unless somebody can Wish up a new Brain). Nowhere does it say the Devourer cannot eat the brains of somebody under that effect.

Protection from Evil and Good makes it impossible for someone to be possessed, so it should stop body thief from working (well the possession part anyway). I guess it could still eat the brain though since the only disadvantage protection from Evil and Good gives is to attacks.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 04:55 PM

Or you could where a helmet. True it doesn't say helmets protect from brain eating but it also doesn't say anywhere that intellect devours can burrow through helmets(as far as I know) so if I was GMing I would rule that helmets protect your brain. :smallwink:

I'm going with tinfoil. That's more appropriate around here.

BRC

2014-09-11, 04:56 PM

Protection from Evil and Good makes it impossible for someone to be possessed, so it should stop body thief from working (well the possession part anyway). I guess it could still eat the brain though since the only disadvantage protection from Evil and Good gives is to attacks.

Ah good.

If you're properly prepared (Have a spell cast on you ahead of time), It can merely take you out of the fight in one round, and kill you on the next one, without ALSO being able to puppet your body against your friends.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 04:56 PM

I don't know why we have singled out fighters. Barbarians, Bards, Clerics, Monks, Rangers, Sorcerers and Warlocks all have an equally hard time resisting this thing. Druids and Rogues do only marginally better.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 04:56 PM

Ability modifiers are only defined for abilities between 1 and 30 in the PHB. I am too lazy to look through the whole chapter to find whether it says it there or is left for the DMG, but you at the very list do not have an undefined ability modifier. 1d20 + NaN = NaN.

0 isn't NaN just because it's not included on the table.

Case of devourer: Automatically kills you and are not ressurectable without level 9 spell.
Case of damage: Get a significantly better than even chance of recovering without any assistance and give your allies an average of 4.5 and a minimum of 3 rounds to come to your aid. Skill checks, cantrips and first level spells are all capable of saving you.

It's pretty binary compared to 'normal' hitpoint damage, alright. Even still, if the devourer doesn't manage to succeed in his efforts to drop a player, he's going to die without inflicting any meaningful damage.

I'd consider that a very fast, binary fight, but not necessarily any more dangerous than others.

A character with 12 intelligence and no proficiency has a 50% chance to fail the save and 37.5% of being drained outright for a total of 18.75% to be taken out of commission for the next two weeks by the creatures first attack. That attack is virtually guaranteed to happen from surprise for the whole group so it is very likely the devourer will get to multiattack a second time before the party even acts.

How the hell is it "virtually guaranteed" that the first attack will be surprise?

And once again, the party can fairly easily grapple the thing and drag it away.

EvilAnagram

2014-09-11, 05:01 PM

Wait, where is this from, and what are its stats?

Corvus

2014-09-11, 05:01 PM

Hang on, didn't these things use to want to go after the player with the most int, or am I misremembering? Now they want to go after those with the least first.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:02 PM

How the hell is it "virtually guaranteed" that the first attack will be surprise?

And once again, the party can fairly easily grapple the thing and drag it away.

It senses the exact positions of everyone within 300 feet through all obstacles (mind blank is the only defense), reads everyone's minds withing 60 feet, happens to be tiny, good at hiding and can use devour intellect from the other side of a two foot brick wall (doesn't need line of sight). Maybe that last part is debatable but it can still hide in a chest or drop from a tree or burrow in a fox hole or wear a meatsuit of some random NPC.

What evidence do you have that someone with 0 intelligence gets to role intelligence contests? My proof is that that creature doesn't have a defined an ability modifier so it clearly cannot roll.

Are you kidding me with the grappling? Your two pieces of advice, to be carried out simultaneously, are to keep far away from it and drag it by grappling? Who is gonna grapple it? The wizard?

BRC

2014-09-11, 05:02 PM

A lot of these defenses require either in-character knowledge, or Metagaming.

It looks like a brain with legs. You don't automatically know that means you need to keep it away from low-int characters. You don't automatically know your non-magical weapons won't hurt it, or that you need the wizard to grapple it and drag it away from the fighters, or that they need to pull out their most damaging spells to drop it in one round.

12owlbears

2014-09-11, 05:05 PM

Hang on, didn't these things use to want to go after the player with the most int, or am I misremembering? Now they want to go after those with the least first.

I'm pretty sure that they still have the same fluff and they eat intelligence so honestly it would make sense for them to make a beeline for the wizard instead of the fighter(who should be protected against this kind of thing anyway thanks to his helmet).

BRC

2014-09-11, 05:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that they still have the same fluff and they eat intelligence so honestly it would make sense for them to make a beeline for the wizard instead of the fighter(who should be protected against this kind of thing anyway thanks to his helmet).

The Devourer teleports inside the target's skull. Helmets will provide about as much protection as hair.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that they still have the same fluff and they eat intelligence so honestly it would make sense for them to make a beeline for the wizard instead of the fighter(who should be protected against this kind of thing anyway thanks to his helmet).

You know this thing doesn't physically burrow into your head, right? It just teleports inside.

Their powers really don't match up with that. The devourer has virtually no way to possess a wizard short of beating them senseless.

Z3ro

2014-09-11, 05:07 PM

What evidence do you have that someone with 0 intelligence gets to role intelligence contests? My proof is that that creature doesn't have a defined an ability modifier so it clearly cannot roll.

?

Nothing in the rules says that. In fact, near as I can tell, the rules make no mention of what happens at a 0 attribute. Presumably, the DMG will clarify. Until then its all house rules.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 05:07 PM

It senses the exact positions of everyone within 300 feet through all obstacles (mind blank is the only defense), reads everyone's minds withing 60 feet, happens to be tiny, good at hiding and can use devour intellect from the other side of a two foot brick wall (doesn't need line of sight). Maybe that last part is debatable but it can still hide in a chest or drop from a tree or burrow in a fox hole or wear a meatsuit of some random NPC.

What evidence do you have that someone with 0 intelligence gets to role intelligence contests? My proof is that that creature doesn't have a defined an ability modifier so it clearly cannot roll.

Are you kidding me with the grappling? Your two pieces of advice, to be carried out simultaneously, are to keep far away from it and drag it by grappling? Who is gonna grapple it? The wizard?

The basic rules and the PHB specify a formula for calculating the ability modifier. Nowhere does it say that you don't have one if it's not on the big table.

Presumably the party has more than two characters. If a character drops in round one, someone else grapples him. Doesn't have to be the wizard.

rlc

2014-09-11, 05:08 PM

Also notice that two CR 2 creatures are supposed to be just a slightly difficult encounter for a four-person second level group.

i thought it was one crn monster is a challenging encounter for a level n party.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 05:10 PM

The formula is FLOOR(([attribute]-10)/2,1)

0-10 = -10
-10/2 = -5

Beige

2014-09-11, 05:12 PM

Or you could wear a helmet. True it doesn't say helmets protect from brain eating but it also doesn't say anywhere that body thief burrows through helmets(as far as I know) so if I was GMing I would rule that helmets protect your brain.

it magically teleports inside your head and eats your brain - no burriwing involved, and since metal dosen't stop teleportation :smallwink:

on to the creature itself, I think we all need to take a deep breath and let our tempers settle.

this is a potentially nasty monster, and one that can threaten a quick death to players for picking a poor stat with very few ways to fix yourself. but even with average int, it's chance of inta-gilb is fairly low, and a decently magey group can take it out eaisly enough (or even a few half-casters. hunters mark from the ranger and smite from the paladin give damage that can break the resistance - it's really only the fighter, barby and monk that will smack into walls, and a quick magic weapon can overcome that as well)

and even if it does turn out to be a near guaranteed party death, then no-one is going to run them as enemies :smallwink: and if they do, you where going to die anyway by some GM contrivance so may as well get to become a slick suit.

so no need to throw rocks over a hypothetical situation :smallsmile:

probably not going to run one myself, but if I do have one devour someone, I might just let that player keep playing their now parasited body XD

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:13 PM

i thought it was one crn monster is a challenging encounter for a level n party.

They are supposed to be medium difficulty. So a second level four person party has an easy budget of 200, medium of 400, hard of 600 and deadly of 800 but it seems deadly encounters are usually just a little bit challenging and medium are ones you can get through with just cantrips/basic attacks. At least how it seems to work at lower levels because my three person party of first level characters (deadly encounter @ 300 xp) took out a 700 xp werewolf with the use of one spell and second wind. The werewolf rolled better than them too so it wasn't just lucky dice.

captpike

2014-09-11, 05:14 PM

So we have a great reason not to min/max your character with 16s, 10s and 8s. And if you choose to anyway, then this is the risk you run.
I'm totally fine with that.

having six saves means you will be bad at some of them, it can not be helped.

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 05:15 PM

Ah good.

If you're properly prepared (Have a spell cast on you ahead of time), It can merely take you out of the fight in one round, and kill you on the next one, without ALSO being able to puppet your body against your friends.

Eh gotta take what you can right?

Then there's the whole mind blank thing, for those who can cast lv 8 spells.

I feel like the battle could go either way, you'd have to fail several saves to get to the point of meat puppet. And if you don't the devourer is probably in trouble.

DeAnno

2014-09-11, 05:16 PM

More and more, I think the optimal setup at level 1 is a Variant Human with the Lucky feat. Those save rerolls are just that critical apparently.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:18 PM

I feel like the battle could go either way, you'd have to fail several saves to get to the point of meat puppet. And if you don't the devourer is probably in trouble.

It's actually faster than a wild elf. If it needs to, it can easily run away and hide somewhere- hiding places should be plentiful for a tiny creature that has no problem with darkness.

Falka

2014-09-11, 05:22 PM

So you guys are mad because something called an Intelect Devourer, which feeds on intellect and eats your thoughts, requires an Int save to not kill you?

And didn't you say there were no Int saves to make the save worthwhile?

Make up your mind. :smallconfused:

Anyways, the monster looks cool. It looks dangerous and that's awesome. It doesn't just "deal damage". It can easily kill someone, even if it's just "CR 2": which is kind of the feel that 5e is supposed to get. I think the art is a bit on the crappy side, though. They could've done it so much better.

Metahuman1

2014-09-11, 05:23 PM

Surprise! The Iron Golem, once the scourge of spellcasters everywhere, is now a lot meaner to non-casters. Advantage on saves vs. magic are meaningless when you have a penalty to several of them. :smallsmile:

That freaking figures.

And seriously, this is even a question that Wizards of the cost wanted to pretend that Melees could be both "realistic and Mundane and still compete with wizards" to sell to the crowd that likes actual fantasy works and lore, and then pulls the rug out form under them cause they have decided catering to god wizard crowds are a better business model? Really?

If these two are Isolated incidents, I'd still be willing to write this off as "Ok, you goofed on a couple of them, there are what? 300+ Monsters in this book? One or two Misfires as expected." but if this keeps up as a pattern, there not gonna get my money, it's either gonna go to Fantasy Craft, Pathfinder with Dreamscarred Press and other 3rd party support liberally applied, or I'll just start using 3rd edition Mutants and Masterminds to run Fantasy games.

Vowtz

2014-09-11, 05:28 PM

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 05:31 PM

Beige

2014-09-11, 05:32 PM

I don't think I understood, it seems my english is getting even worse:

A CR 2 monster, alone and without help, has almost 50% chance of killing a level 20 Barbarian if on surprise round, or if it wins initiative.

And that is not a design flaw.

Am I interpreting this right?

it has nowhere near a 50% chance to kill you outright - even if you have 8 int, it has a 17% chance to take two turns to possibly kill you, and if your a 20th level character in a party of at least 2, then your teammates will squish it without even noticing

plus, level 20 has wish to restore brains if things go wrong :smallbiggrin:

also, you don't surprise level 20 barbarians - you just find yourself facing an angry one with advantage to the initiative roll :smallbiggrin:

DeAnno

2014-09-11, 05:33 PM

In general, I think the PHB was pretty quality and made a lot of the right sorts of compromises that a system like this was going to have to make. On the other hand what I've seen of the monster manual looks slapshod and rushed, mostly due to CRs being wildly and obviously off. It isn't so much that an Intellect Devourer isn't an appropriate CR 2 challenge (even though that's probably true), it's that it's more lethal than a couple things with much higher CR I saw floating around in the MM, and arguably less lethal than a well played Pixie.

Triclinium

2014-09-11, 05:33 PM

DeAnno

2014-09-11, 05:35 PM

A CR 2 monster, alone and without help, has almost 50% chance of killing a level 20 Barbarian if on surprise round, or if it wins initiative.

That's a good point. Alertness is something of a feat tax as well as Lucky, I suppose.

Triclinium

2014-09-11, 05:40 PM

While the "just use wish to fix it" seems a bit goofy, the ability to drop a low int character doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Its well within reason to have a CR2 monster that does enough damage in one attack to drop a party wizard. The only problem I see is the inability to recover from this as easily as damage.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:41 PM

it has nowhere near a 50% chance to kill you outright - even if you have 8 int, it has a 17% chance to take two turns to possibly kill you, and if your a 20th level character in a party of at least 2, then your teammates will squish it without even noticing

plus, level 20 has wish to restore brains if things go wrong :smallbiggrin:

also, you don't surprise level 20 barbarians - you just find yourself facing an angry one with advantage to the initiative roll :smallbiggrin:

It actually has a 50.38% chance drain the 20th level barabrian's intelligence assuming the barbarian dumped int. It autokills you on the second turn which isn't likely to happen at 20th level if you allies are smart. On the other hand two of them surprising a 20th level barbarian, which wouldn't be all that hard for them, have a 50% chance to kill and posses in the surprise round and 75% to at least seriously incapacitate the barbarian before the party even have a chance to act.

P.S. I wish any caster trying to cast protection from evil on a raging barbarian attacking them luck in their endeavor and it was nice knowing them.

Shining Wrath

2014-09-11, 05:43 PM

It's not a terrible monster but the CR is too low. If you've got a 4 person party and it knocks one person out, you need to get 21 HP in a round.

But in a balanced 4 person party, 2 of the remaining 3 ought to be full casters and be doing somewhere around 2D8 or better with cantrips alone, and those will do full damage. So that's 18, assuming the casters hit with their attacks. And then you need 3*2=6 HP from the remaining melee type.

IF it gets surprise or wins initiative, it's lethal. If the party gets to go first, the thing may be dead (or running for its tiny life) before it can even try to brain-blast Big Dumb Fighter. After all, there's no way this thing (INT 12) should keep fighting after taking significant damage unless it's certain it can get inside someone's skull before taking more damage.

Therefore, if I'm the DM using this thing, it attacks from inside a skull to gain surprise, and runs if forced out of the body before it can do its teleport into skull trick, because two cantrips with slightly above average rolls can drop it.

Also, unless the MM entry or DM guide say otherwise, I would call the ID moving into your skull a form of possession and allow Protection from [Evil / Good] or [Chaos / Law] to stop it.

Also, being aware of creatures within 300 feet is not the same as knowing much of anything about them - just that there's something out there that isn't an animal. Also, nothing I've seen so far says that it has any ability to discern who has higher INT and who lower, unless you think knowing thoughts implies being able to say "Those are the thoughts of a smart person".

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:46 PM

Triclinium

2014-09-11, 05:48 PM

Well, not distinguish between 12 and 14 intelligence maybe but definitely enough to distinguish between 8 and 16 rather easily.

You could probably rule that, but it actually does not say that anywhere.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 05:49 PM

Where does it say that it can read thoughts?

Beige

2014-09-11, 05:50 PM

It actually has a 50.38% chance drain the 20th level barabrian's intelligence assuming the barbarian dumped int. It autokills you on the second turn which isn't likely to happen at 20th level if you allies are smart. On the other hand two of them surprising a 20th level barbarian, which wouldn't be all that hard for them, have a 50% chance to kill and posses in the surprise round and 75% to at least seriously incapacitate the barbarian before the party even have a chance to act.

P.S. I wish any caster trying to cast protection from evil on a raging barbarian attacking them luck in their endeavor and it was nice knowing them.

ummmm, you only have a 44% chance of rolling a 9 or higher on 3d6, and that's after it fails the save (though I'll admit my math from before was off as for some reason I thought the save DC was 10, rather than 12, so you'll fail 70% of the time...)

so it's got a 30.8% chance of taking out the barby - still a little silly for a cr 2 monster (and it deals psychic damage, so the barby will have to remember what non-resisted damage feels like :smallbiggrin:), but not half as bad as your making out

and i'm still sticking with my assumption the barbys going first. it cant be surprised even without alert, you've dumped int not dex so your at least not at a penalty, and the bonus from advantage means your more likely to move before them

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 05:50 PM

Where does it say that it can read thoughts?

It's got telepathy, whether that means it can read thoughts or not I don't know.

Metahuman1

2014-09-11, 05:52 PM

The fact that a single CR 2 monster has a 50% or better chance to solo kill a class for the crime of not being an Int based casting class that in the past has gotten FAR more then it's fair share of nice things is a serious issue though. And it's not just one class, it's a majority of them.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:53 PM

You could probably rule that, but it actually does not say that anywhere.

Eh, I'd probably rule it to go after the big dumb guy with the sword at the front. They usually go down rather easily and make pretty good literal meatshields so it's a good tactic and easy to figure out.

Of course the party I am currently DMing for has a big 16 int eldritch-knight-to-be in that position while the ones following are a 10 int druid and cleric so that would be the wrong tactic. They also all have attack cantrips so they won't have too hard a time with it if it keeps going after the EK. Fact is, even three people attacking it with cantrips without disadvantage will have trouble taking it down in two rounds though. The chance of all three hitting in a round is only 34% and 3d8 damage is unlikely to take it down anyway.

Shining Wrath

2014-09-11, 05:54 PM

Well, not distinguish between 12 and 14 intelligence maybe but definitely enough to distinguish between 8 and 16 rather easily.

And it depends upon how much time it has to make this assessment, because I can assure you as a high-IQ person I spend a fair amount of time thinking about lunch. So if it's in hiding, carefully assessing the party for a couple of minutes, maybe.

But if the party comes into view and immediately spots the ID / host, it's got a few seconds of time from each mind, and each mind is probably thinking a variation of "Prepare for battle!".

EDIT: Don't a lot of cantrips do more than 1D8 at first level? I thought, e.g., Chill Touch did 2D8.

captpike

2014-09-11, 05:55 PM

Also, being aware of creatures within 300 feet is not the same as knowing much of anything about them - just that there's something out there that isn't an animal. Also, nothing I've seen so far says that it has any ability to discern who has higher INT and who lower, unless you think knowing thoughts implies being able to say "Those are the thoughts of a smart person".

between what people look like and their thoughts you should be able to make a good guess. also "the guy who has armor and a weapon, and does not cast spells" works

People laugh at anyone with a negative Con mod, but no one ever laughs when any, and I mean any other stat gets dumped.
Well, now it's time to start laughing.
That's not horrible game design. That's abso-luckin-footly amazing game design.

Well done on the intellect devourer, WotC!

so what is your advise then? to have the same score in every stat? so you can suck at everything?

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 05:55 PM

Nope. Telepathy only allows communication, not thought reading (see basic DM rules)

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 05:58 PM

between what people look like and their thoughts you should be able to make a good guess. also "the guy who has armor and a weapon, and does not cast spells" works they don't have eyes.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 05:58 PM

ummmm, you only have a 44% chance of rolling a 9 or higher on 3d6, and that's after it fails the save (though I'll admit my math from before was off as for some reason I thought the save DC was 10, rather than 12, so you'll fail 70% of the time...)

so it's got a 30.8% chance of taking out the barby - still a little silly for a cr 2 monster (and it deals psychic damage, so the barby will have to remember what non-resisted damage feels like :smallbiggrin:), but not half as bad as your making out

and i'm still sticking with my assumption the barbys going first. it cant be surprised even without alert, you've dumped int not dex so your at least not at a penalty, and the bonus from advantage means your more likely to move before them

Using up a rage for a CR 2 monster is a bit ridiculous but definitely worth it in this case. Oh, wait, unlimited rages at 20th level. Nevermind :D

The chance of rolling at least an 8 are 83.8% which is enough to suck the barbarian into unconsciousness (and even the 9 is 74.07% (http://anydice.com/program/1)).

Edit:

EDIT: Don't a lot of cantrips do more than 1D8 at first level? I thought, e.g., Chill Touch did 2D8.
Nope. 1d12 is the best there is, I believe. Some wizard cantrip. No one gets to add damage at second level either.

Doug Lampert

2014-09-11, 06:01 PM

ummmm, you only have a 44% chance of rolling a 9 or higher on 3d6,

That's odd. You have a 50% chance of rolling an 11 or higher, so the chance of a 9 or higher is 6% LOWER than the chance of an 11 or higher? Interesting dice you have there.

In point of fact, a 9 or higher is better than a 74% chance.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 06:02 PM

they don't have eyes.

They have blindsight so they don't need eyes :D

Also the DMG says nothing about a creature not being able to skim surface thoughts with telepathy but that'd probably be stretching the idea of how it works.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 06:03 PM

I don't think blindsight would let you distinguish between a guy with a sword and a guy with a staff and robes.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 06:05 PM

I don't think blindsight would let you distinguish between a guy with a sword and a guy with a staff and robes.

Of course it would. Read the description in the basic DM rules :P

rlc

2014-09-11, 06:07 PM

Where does it say that it can read thoughts?

i'm thinking people are seeing "It knows everything the creature knew, including spells and languages" and not realizing that's after its already in your head.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 06:08 PM

Of course it would. Read the description in the basic DM rules :P

It mentions that creatures with blindsight can perceive their surroundings. That does not imply sight.

hachface

2014-09-11, 06:09 PM

That is a stat block that will end friendships.

captpike

2014-09-11, 06:11 PM

It mentions that creatures with blindsight can perceive their surroundings. That does not imply sight.

"knowing where creatures are, and what they are wearing" is basic, I would say that any creature who can not do that can not "perceive their surroundings"

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 06:12 PM

i'm thinking people are seeing "It knows everything the creature knew, including spells and languages" and not realizing that's after its already in your head.

Nah, I just always assume telepathy lets you skim surface thoughts. Instead it appears you are supposed to imagine it as some weird telephone connection where creatures incapable of telepathy are immediately proficient at sending only stuff they want along.

It mentions that creatures with blindsight can perceive their surroundings. That does not imply sight.
Barring the fact that it is called blindsight which clearly implies sight, what do you imagine it means?

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 06:14 PM

That is a stat block that will end friendships.

Heh. Yeah....

"knowing where creatures are, and what they are wearing" is basic, I would say that any creature who can not do that can not "perceive their surroundings"
It's basic because we, as people, use our sight for everything. Nothing about the way an ID is described implies that it can sense clothing. Nothing about the way it's described would imply that it needs to be able to sense clothing.

captpike

2014-09-11, 06:14 PM

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 06:15 PM

Nah, I just always assume telepathy lets you skim surface thoughts. Instead it appears you are supposed to imagine it as some weird telephone connection where creatures incapable of telepathy are immediately proficient at sending only stuff they want along.

Barring the fact that it is called blindsight which clearly implies sight, what do you imagine it means?

I always thought it meant the creature just had a different way to be aware of it's surroundings with abilities like sonar, or tremor sense. You can "see" but it isn't literally sight.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 06:17 PM

Barring the fact that it is called blindsight which clearly implies sight, what do you imagine it means?
The description explicitly says perceive, not see. I can do the same thing:

Blindsight

SaintRidley

2014-09-11, 06:20 PM

I like it. I want to catch one and name it George, and sic it on my enemies.

Deadly monsters, in my D&D? Why thank you, WotC, you've given me everything I've been dreaming of.

Pex

2014-09-11, 06:26 PM

After using the wish spell to restore the brain, the wizard has a strength of three and won't cast spells for fear of taking lots and lots of damage. 1/3 chance he'll never, ever be able to cast wish again.

Now it's the second intellect devourer's turn.

WickerNipple

2014-09-11, 06:34 PM

That is a stat block that will end friendships.

Actually I suspect this monster design to be pretty common based on the previews I've read.

It's just going to be that kind of game.

Soras Teva Gee

2014-09-11, 06:46 PM

Anybody dared to compare this to any other CR 2 monsters yet?

For example:

Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 14 (natural armor)
Hit Points 42 (5d12 + 10)
Speed 60 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
19 (+4) 16 (+3) 14 (+2) 7 (−2) 14 (+2) 10 (+0)
Skills Perception +4
Senses passive Perception 14
Languages Giant Elk, understands Common, Elvish, and Sylvan
but can’t speak them
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Charge.If the elk moves at least 20 feet straight toward a
target and then hits it with a ram attack on the same turn, the
target takes an extra 7 (2d6) damage. If the target is a creature,
it must succeed on a DC 14 Strength saving throw or be
knocked prone.

Actions
Ram. Melee Weapon Attack:+6 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target.
Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage.

Hooves.Melee Weapon Attack:+6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one prone
creature. Hit: 22 (4d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.

I don't know but it seems to me this forest beasty has a decent chance of one shot-ing things with lower then d10 HD, as ordinary array only has one 15 on it. That +2 Con will leave you 1 short playing that average safe. And since it has actual HP not resistance it isn't going so succumb to spell damage so easily, has somewhat better AC and strictly better saves since PC have few way to cause Int based saves.

I admit getting your brain eaten is harder to handle then dropping from 0 HP but a full party attack with say Magic Missile and Inflict Wounds can drop 21 HP in a round even with the Fighter and Rogue dealing half. And definitely 2, so make one DC 12 save and you should be set to survive.

Other fun fact, Intellect Devourer despite being CR 2 is just below the 5d8 average for Sleep and so running just one CR 2 against level 2 as is suggested...

Falka

2014-09-11, 07:17 PM

Barring the fact that it is called blindsight which clearly implies sight, what do you imagine it means?

Blindsight refers to special kind of senses that allow creatures to percieve things in the enviroment without relying on sight.

Dragons have blindsight because the trait represents their keen sense of smell and hearing, allowing to rely on those senses to keep track of enemies within a distance with good accuracy, just like they could 'see' them. But not actually using sight, you know?

Falka

2014-09-11, 07:19 PM

12owlbears

2014-09-11, 07:19 PM

The Devourer teleports inside the target's skull.

right sorry about that didn't read the description the whole way through. Can i just say that this thing would be way cooler if it did burrow into your skull instead of teleporting in. I mean if I'm going to get insta killed I want it to be graphic not just "pop" there goes your brain.

Hang on the Intellect devourer can teleport right. Can it only teleport into skulls?

obryn

2014-09-11, 07:21 PM

I don't know but it seems to me this forest beasty has a decent chance of one shot-ing things with lower then d10 HD, as ordinary array only has one 15 on it. That +2 Con will leave you 1 short playing that average safe. And since it has actual HP not resistance it isn't going so succumb to spell damage so easily, has somewhat better AC and strictly better saves since PC have few way to cause Int based saves.

I admit getting your brain eaten is harder to handle then dropping from 0 HP but a full party attack with say Magic Missile and Inflict Wounds can drop 21 HP in a round even with the Fighter and Rogue dealing half. And definitely 2, so make one DC 12 save and you should be set to survive.

Other fun fact, Intellect Devourer despite being CR 2 is just below the 5d8 average for Sleep and so running just one CR 2 against level 2 as is suggested...
Giant Elks are pretty nasty for sure. No doubt. But any cleric or bard can bring you right back.

Intellect Devourers incapacitate you with one action for the rest of the combat and maybe more than that, though. And then the permakill you on the next action.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 07:27 PM

Giant Elks are pretty nasty for sure. No doubt. But any cleric or bard can bring you right back.

Intellect Devourers incapacitate you with one action for the rest of the combat and maybe more than that, though. And then the permakill you on the next action.

Is a combat more challenging just because the after-combat side effects (death versus being incapacitated until you are healed) are more severe? I would argue that it isn't; more is just at stake. Furthermore, there's nothing about the intellect devourer that is even remotely scary other than the possibility that it can kill you quickly.

Tvtyrant

2014-09-11, 07:31 PM

I now know what I am going to do. The devourers already won. Like Yeerks they desire effective bodies to replace their own cruddy ones, so they create zoo-worlds with low technology where humanoids are bred. The world you live in is one such zoo amongst thousands, and the Intellect Devourers consistently cull the less useful creatures on the planet for more useful ones. Humanoids are considered tremendously useful for their hands and high postures, and so are kept in high numbers for harvesting. Many monsters are considered pests that hunt their farm animals, and devourers go to great lengths to destroy dragons and Mindflayers that feed on their farm-zoo populations.

Casters are squashed out as they are useless to the Devourers and a legitimate threat, while strong humanoids are prized for their contributions to the devourer space empire.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 07:32 PM

Is a combat more challenging just because the after-combat side effects (death versus being incapacitated until you are healed) are more severe? I would argue that it isn't; more is just at stake. Furthermore, there's nothing about the intellect devourer that is even remotely scary other than the possibility that it can kill you quickly.

The next combat certainly is, and the consequence for the player character and the player are both significantly more severe. If you get koed and taken out of a fight, your character can be healed back up or even healed in the middle of the fight, since negative HP isn't a thing. Dead characters gain no benefit from someone trying to heal them, and certainly don't spring back up and start laying the smack down on your opponents unless you're a necromancer.

ambartanen

2014-09-11, 07:33 PM

Couldn't we just use a Raise Dead? Using a wish sounds like super overkill to me.

Sure. You do need a raise dead after you cast wish.

This spells closes all mortal wounds, but it doesn't restore missing body part. If the creature is lacking body parts integral for it's survival- it's head, for instance- the spell automatically fails.

Seriously, it's that disappearing brain that cannot be retrieved without wish that really bothers me the most. The only other problem is that I cannot find any information on how long it takes to recover from being completely drained of intelligence.

A few different people on blindsight
Yes, it's not literal sight but the name suggests it is pretty clear "vision" i.e. perception of the world. The thing already senses the positions of all creatures within 300 feet without regard for obstacles so clearly blindsight is supposed to give it something more than that.

EvilAnagram

2014-09-11, 07:37 PM

I like it. It's AC is only 12, it has 21 HP, and it has a couple of nasty tricks that can two-hit someone. It can make for a terrifying encounter that raises the stakes on the PCs, and if the PCs are quick-witted and quick to act then no one will die. Protection from Good and Evil on whomever it stuns and don't let up on the attacks.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 07:40 PM

cobaltstarfire

2014-09-11, 07:42 PM

Sure. You do need a raise dead after you cast wish.

Seriously, it's that disappearing brain that cannot be retrieved without wish that really bothers me the most. The only other problem is that I cannot find any information on how long it takes to recover from being completely drained of intelligence.

If we're going to compare Resurrection to Wish, at least compare the one on the same spell level (true resurrection) which can replace the whole body and such.

Or if it must be the lower level spell Reincarnate should be fine, although it's more expensive than resurrection.

akaddk

2014-09-11, 07:50 PM

{Scrubbed}

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-11, 08:02 PM

The next combat certainly is, and the consequence for the player character and the player are both significantly more severe. If you get koed and taken out of a fight, your character can be healed back up or even healed in the middle of the fight, since negative HP isn't a thing. Dead characters gain no benefit from someone trying to heal them, and certainly don't spring back up and start laying the smack down on your opponents unless you're a necromancer.

The next combat is, but the CR system is not designed to estimate difficulty over multiple encounters. The potential to rejoin the current battle is worth noting, but doesn't by itself account for the disparity in combat ability between the ID and the giant elk.

Pex

2014-09-11, 08:21 PM

{scrubbed}

From another thread:

Re: Biggest Mistakes of a DM?

Dismissing a player's concern as "whining".

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371378-Biggest-Mistakes-of-a-DM

Shadow

2014-09-11, 08:21 PM

And then the permakill you on the next action.

Except that they don't. Because they are intelligent. They are smarter than the hypothetical meat shield that they inhabit. And that measn that they are certainly not going to suddenly decide to commit suicide by leaving the big dumb meat shield's body.
Once again, the sky is not falling.

MeeposFire

2014-09-11, 08:25 PM

Couldn't we just use a Raise Dead? Using a wish sounds like super overkill to me.

Raise dead is useless since I think it specifies that you do not regrow missing body parts and you are missing a brain. When you get raised you just die again because you have no brain. You would need another spell to bring back the brain first and then you can raise dead. Regeneration may work.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 08:26 PM

The next combat is, but the CR system is not designed to estimate difficulty over multiple encounters. The potential to rejoin the current battle is worth noting, but doesn't by itself account for the disparity in combat ability between the ID and the giant elk.

It's not? There's no guidelines anywhere about how many encounters of what difficulty you can probably throw at a party before a long rest? What about a short rest? Is that really not a thing?

Edit: No, instead the Devourer uses the meat shield to beat the other characters to death or near death until it is forcibly expelled from its host body, which then dies anyways due to lack of a brain.

Double Edit: There's the flaw in this thing and the CR system. This thing is either a complete joke or it permakills at least one party member and then attacks the rest of the party with the dead character. The giant Elk doesn't put up an invulnerable shield that can't be dropped until the party fights and KOs one of its own members.

MeeposFire

2014-09-11, 08:26 PM

Mikeavelli

2014-09-11, 08:31 PM

Shadow

2014-09-11, 08:33 PM

I think he is talking about eating the brain which is what happens as they assume direct control. Without a way to replace the brain that character is permanently dead (raise dead will not work because it cannot replace body parts).

Except that this isn't how that works either.

Also on a failure, roll 3d6: If the total equals or exceeds the target’s Intelligence score, that score is reduced to 0. The target is stunned until it regains at least one point of Intelligence.
<snip>
If the host body drops to 0 hit points, the intellect devourer must leave it. A protection from evil and good
spell cast on the body drives the intellect devourer out. The intellect devourer is also forced out if the target egains its devoured brain by means of a wish . By spending 5 feet of its movement, the intellect devourer can voluntarily leave the body, teleporting to the nearest unoccupied space within 5 feet of it. The body then dies, unless its brain is restored within 1 round.

You could easily argue that:
It says nothing of the character dying unless the ID leaves of its own volition.
If you force it out, the character merely has an Int of 0 until you can fix that.
Not dead.
And not going to be dead unless your DM is a d-bag and an idiot by making a perfectly safe, yet fragile, creature leave its safety zone.... which it will almost certainly not do voluntarily because it's intelligent.

DM fiat: The ID eats your memories, but not your actual brain. You only auto-die if it leaves voluntarily.

obryn

2014-09-11, 08:34 PM

Except that they don't. Because they are intelligent. They are smarter than the hypothetical meat shield that they inhabit. And that measn that they are certainly not going to suddenly decide to commit suicide by leaving the big dumb meat shield's body.
Once again, the sky is not falling.
Um. As soon as they eat the brain, the character is dead and the intellect devourer is driving it around like a car.

e:

You could easily argue that:
It says nothing of the character dying unless the ID leaves of its own volition.
If you force it out, the character merely has an Int of 0 until you can fix that.
Not dead.
And not going to be dead unless your DM is a d-bag and an idiot by making a perfectly safe, yet fragile, creature leave its safety zone.... which it will almost certainly not do voluntarily because it's intelligent.
It ate your brain.

That happened on Round 2. It is now pretending to be your brain. If you force it out, the body has no brain. To get your brain back, you need a wish.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 08:36 PM

I see this more as a storyline monster inhabiting NPC's you want to subject to permadeath, rather than PC's, who should not be at risk for permadeath at this level. The entire design concept of 5E has been to avoid allowing this exact sort of circumstance at all but the highest levels, so including it on a monster at CR 2 runs counter to that philosophy.

Maybe their intentions were good, but if that's the case this thing should NOT be in the Monster Manual, it should be in the DMG under "plot devices to use sparingly and not on the party."

Since it's in the MM it's fair game for any DM to use, especially one that doesn't know what he's doing, and hence the sentiment that the designers are either incompetent or worse, and that the system is going to have more holes in it than a swiss-cheese target on a firing range.

Anubis Dread

2014-09-11, 08:37 PM

By spending 5 feet of its movement, the intellect devourer can voluntarily leave the body, teleporting to the nearest unoccupied space within 5 feet of it. The body then dies, unless its brain is restored within 1 round.

Oh my god that is hilarous! :smallbiggrin: Not because the PC dies, it's just that... well think about it. "Teleporting", "Brain is restore". The Intellect Devourer eats Int, but it doesn't eat the actual brain itself. It sort of wraps itself around it, but when it teleports out if teleports the brain with it! I just have this mental image of this little monster porting out of someone's skull still holding onto their brain and it is incredible.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 08:39 PM

Oh my god that is hilarous! :smallbiggrin: Not because the PC dies, it's just that... well think about it. "Teleporting", "Brain is restore". The Intellect Devourer eats Int, but it doesn't eat the actual brain itself. It sort of wraps itself around it, but when it teleports out if teleports the brain with it! I just have this mental image of this little monster porting out of someone's skull still holding onto their brain and it is incredible.

Nope, he's leaving out this bit of text:

If it wins the contest, the intellect devourer magically consumes
the target’s brain, teleports into the target’s skull, and takes
control of the target’s body.

The character is dead as soon as the devourer gets in.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 08:40 PM

Hence the words DM fiat: and the line that follows.

Icewraith

2014-09-11, 08:42 PM

Hence the words DM fiat: and the line that follows.

What about the four lines BEFORE DM fiat that similarly ignore the text?

You can't argue any of that, it's just houserules. If the devourer is riding a character, the brain is gone. If you force it out, the brain is already eaten. It is gone. Digested. It has ceased to be! (rest of quote).... THIS... IS AN EX-BRAIN!!!!!

Anubis Dread

2014-09-11, 08:42 PM

Shadow

2014-09-11, 08:45 PM

What about the four lines BEFORE DM fiat that similarly ignore the text?

You mean the ones that start with "you could easily argue that:"
Meaning that this would be acceptable using the DM fiat mentioned?
Context is your friend.

obryn

2014-09-11, 08:47 PM

Huh, that is strange. It does say it consumes the brain, but it also blatantly states that the PC only dies if the the Devourer leaves voluntarily. This either means:

-'Consume' doesn't necesarily mean 'destroy'
-The PC does die no matter what, but there's some bad editting there if that's the case.
-PCs can survive without a brain. Knowing some PCs, this might actually be the most likely option.
No, it says the body dies. The PC is already dead (see: brain, living without), but his body lives on as a flesh-mecha for a brain monster.

The part about getting your brain back with a Wish spell is telling.

Hence the words DM fiat: and the line that follows.
You can houserule anything, man. If you think it's more fair if the PC gets right back up after their brain gets eaten, or decide that its brain consumption is a temporary condition, then more power to you. I happen to agree with you - that would be a much better monster. It's not the monster in the book, but it would certainly make for a fairer fight, and it's how I would probably modify it if I ever ran a game with one.

Anubis Dread

2014-09-11, 08:53 PM

Yeah that entry is kind of badly written. The wish spell entry is literally the only thing that convinces me that 'consume' just refers to 'swallowing', and that it kind of spits the brain back out if forced to leave. Unless 'restore' refers to 'restore to its prior state' and... bah, why couldn't they just put 'it eats the brain and the PC dies. It uses it as a meat puppet unless you wish it's brain uneaten, and protection from evil forces it out. The end' without all the run on sentences and seperating phrases? :smallsigh:

rlc

2014-09-11, 08:55 PM

Heh. Yeah....

It's basic because we, as people, use our sight for everything. Nothing about the way an ID is described implies that it can sense clothing. Nothing about the way it's described would imply that it needs to be able to sense clothing.
i know a blind guy. or, well, i haven't seen him for a few years, but that's not the point. i can confirm that he pretty much knew that everybody wore clothes, but he didn't know if you were wearing clothes at that moment. as a teenager i streaked out of my bathroom to my bedroom after a shower at least once when he was at my house when he was there and i didn't know it.. he definitely perceived his surroundings by hearing me, but he had no idea that i was naked at that point in time.

so, uh, yea, i guess what i'm saying is that i agree with this post.

Mikeavelli

2014-09-11, 08:56 PM

Maybe their intentions were good, but if that's the case this thing should NOT be in the Monster Manual, it should be in the DMG under "plot devices to use sparingly and not on the party."

Since it's in the MM it's fair game for any DM to use, especially one that doesn't know what he's doing, and hence the sentiment that the designers are either incompetent or worse, and that the system is going to have more holes in it than a swiss-cheese target on a firing range.

Agreed.

I'm under the impression that a memo went out to the guys designing monsters that "PC's should actually be challenged, and be in danger of dying, during an equal-CR fight." - and the MM guys just ran with it.

It's not just this, equal-CR fights are consistently pretty lethal for PC's. They don't normally *die*, but they do go down often enough that we're all familiar with the "PC-in-the-process-of-dying" rules.

obryn

2014-09-11, 08:57 PM

Yeah that entry is kind of badly written.
Welcome to D&D 5e and unclear natural language! Enjoy your stay! :smallbiggrin:

Personally, though, I still think it's clear with how it's written that the monster has eaten your brain, and the designers figured everyone knows you're dead once your brain gets eaten. :smallwink: Little did they realize that this is D&D.

MeeposFire

2014-09-11, 09:00 PM

Huh, that is strange. It does say it consumes the brain, but it also blatantly states that the PC only dies if the the Devourer leaves voluntarily. This either means:

-'Consume' doesn't necesarily mean 'destroy'
-The PC does die no matter what, but there's some bad editting there if that's the case.
-PCs can survive without a brain. Knowing some PCs, this might actually be the most likely option.

If the host body drops to 0 hit points, the intellect devourer
must leave it. A protection from evil and good spell cast on the
body drives the intellect devourer out. The intellect devourer
is also forced out if the target regains its devoured brain by
means of a wish. By spending 5 feet of its movement, the
intellect devourer can voluntarily leave the body, teleporting to
the nearest unoccupied space within 5 feet of it. The body then
dies, unless its brain is restored within 1 round.

That line implies that the brain is already devoured and that a wish spell brings it back which also forces that devourer out. The brain has been eaten as the creature enters which means that the body will die without it apparently in a round. Now the ID can forestall the death of the body by controlling it but it is only not dying due to the ID allowing to live. Without the ID the body dies because without it or a brain the body cannot live.

Anubis Dread

2014-09-11, 09:00 PM

I die when my brain is eaten? But I got eaten by that T-Rex like ten times that last fight and I was fine!

Broken Twin

2014-09-11, 09:00 PM

I'm just going to hope that there's a page 2 for this thing that actually gives it a weakness. Because something that always knows where you are long before you see it, is resistant to mundane weapons, and can incapacitate you in one round by attacking a save very few people are any good at is bull for a CR2.

As it stands, I'm REALLY hoping that the CR 2 is a typo. I don't mind if you're going to have monsters that can two-shot anyone with a low Int, I do mind having a CR system that apparently serves no point. Given that most of the countermeasures against it are not even close to being available at the Challenge Rating it's supposedly balanced for... something's screwy. Even knowing exactly what this thing is gives you no way to defend against it, considering it can hide from you while keeping exact track of where you are, no matter how good your stealth is. The one spell that would actually be available to the party that it's supposedly balanced for doesn't actually do anything to defend you against it. It just forces it to 2-step munch on another PC. Unless you're a team of Wizards. Then everything is a-okay!

Also, the shear amount of Resistance vs Anything Nonmagical I'm seeing everywhere is making me very cranky at an edition that was supposedly reducing the game's dependency on magic items. We shouldn't be seeing that type of DR until, like, CR 4 at the earliest.

(Speaking of Protection from Evil and Good, why does it not grant advantage on saves you make? It just grants disadvantage on attacks they make. Which gives a lot of spells they can cast free reign on you.)

Shadow

2014-09-11, 09:05 PM

I do mind having a CR system that apparently serves no point. Given that most of the countermeasures against it are not even close to being available at the Challenge Rating it's supposedly balanced for... something's screwy.

You're thinking of it in 3.x and 4e terms.
In 5e, mobs can be used and are indeed useful for a much wider spectrum of the game.
Just because it says CR2 doesn't mean that you need to be level 2 to encounter it. Think of a big boss fight. You kill the boss.... and out pops an ID onto the ground next to you. And here you were, thinking the encounter was over.

obryn

2014-09-11, 09:06 PM

As it stands, I'm REALLY hoping that the CR 2 is a typo.
It's not. CR is very mechanistic in 5e, and it relates to the monster's HP and proficiency modifier. And probably stats, too, and maybe damage. It doesn't seem to take special abilities into account at all or make any judgment calls. (See: Pixie)

obryn

2014-09-11, 09:10 PM

Shadow

2014-09-11, 09:11 PM

At 10th level, 6 of these guys are a Medium encounter for a party of 4.

Round 1: Brainy 1 stuns Fighter. Brainy 2 eats his brain. Brainy 3 stuns Cleric. Brainy 4 eats his brain. Brainy 5 and 6 are for clean-up.

It's now 8 on 2! What a fun fight! :smallbiggrin:

Obviously from my example I'm not talking about six of them at once.
Obviously from my example I'm talking about one of them, unknown to the party, tacked onto an already existing encounter.
Once again, context is your friend.

Broken Twin

2014-09-11, 09:19 PM

I would have zero problem with the ID if it didn't instagib the brain of it's meat mech. It's denying the player literally any chance to do anything after they get hit with one attack that bothers me. They don't get a save to avoid being possessed. They don't get a save to avoid having their brain eaten when they get possessed. They don't even get one last "heroic spirit" roll to force the ID out of their brainless corpse. They get taken out by a single easy to fail roll. The player may as well go watch a movie at that point, because even if their character survives the fight, they're out of commission for the rest of the session. Unless everyone can drop whatever's happening in game until however long it takes for ability scores to recover in this edition. The entire purpose of it seems to be "Go grab your backup character."

And yes, I realise "go watch a movie" is being hyperbolic. I got really hopeful for 5E from the PHB, and a lot of what I'm seeing from the MM seems to be stomping on those hopes.

hachface

2014-09-11, 09:19 PM

You're thinking of it in 3.x and 4e terms.
In 5e, mobs can be used and are indeed useful for a much wider spectrum of the game.
Just because it says CR2 doesn't mean that you need to be level 2 to encounter it. Think of a big boss fight. You kill the boss.... and out pops an ID onto the ground next to you. And here you were, thinking the encounter was over.

This is an absurd interpretation of the rules.

From the Basic DM Rules (p. 5):

"A monster’s challenge rating tells you how great a
threat the monster is. An appropriately equipped and
well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to
defeat a monster that has a challenge rating equal to its
level without suffering any deaths. For example, a party
of four 3rd-level characters should find a monster with
a challenge rating of 3 to be a worthy challenge, but not
a deadly one."

Emphasis mine.

The intellect devourer has a superb chance of killing a 2nd-level character.

Steel Mirror

2014-09-11, 09:22 PM

Wow, that is brutal. I think in my game, I would alter them so that Body Thief is a 1 minute or so long action. That way, they could still be the focus of a paranoia-based horror session, and the PCs would be suspicious about any NPC that leaves their sight for more than a minute over the course of the adventure. Plus a lone PC separated from his comrades would just be asking for a brain eating. But they wouldn't be such ridiculously swingy TPK fodder.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 09:22 PM

This is an absurd interpretation of the rules.
The intellect devourer has a superb chance of killing a 2nd-level character.

First of all, it isn't an interpretation, it's how Bounded Accuracy works.
Secondly, it does not have a superb chance of killing a 2nd level character. It has a moderate chance.

hachface

2014-09-11, 09:26 PM

First of all, it isn't an interpretation, it's how Bounded Accuracy works.
Secondly, it does not have a superb chance of killing a 2nd level character. It has a moderate chance.

Per the designers' stated intentions, it should have very little chance.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 09:28 PM

There need to be exceptions to that general design, or the PCs would never be in any danger.

hachface

2014-09-11, 09:30 PM

There need to be exceptions to that general design, or the PCs would never be in any danger.

Untrue. Successive level-appropriate encounters become increasingly more difficult due to resource attrition. Encounters that are meant to be difficult even at full resources should be designed with a CR higher than the party's level; those are your boss fights and big set piece battles and such.

Broken Twin

2014-09-11, 09:33 PM

You should be putting PCs in danger by putting them up against higher CRs...

An equivalent CR encounter, by their own rules, should have a small chance of removing a PC from the game. Not a +50% chance. If the GM wants to seriously threaten the party, they should use a higher CR encounter. Not try to guess which monsters are and aren't actually balanced for the level they're supposed to be balanced for.

Shadow

2014-09-11, 09:33 PM

Untrue. Successive level-appropriate encounters become increasingly more difficult due to resource attrition. Encounters that are meant to be difficult even at full resources should be designed with a CR higher than the party's level; those are your boss fights and big set piece battles and such.

Read your quoted text again. This time, notice the words well rested.
You guys are seriously overestimating the chaces of a death. +50%? Really? It has AC 12 and 21 HP. In most 2nd level parties, this thing is dead before it teleports into someone's head.

captpike

2014-09-11, 09:36 PM

There need to be exceptions to that general design, or the PCs would never be in any danger.

and here I thought it was the DM's job to decide how hard fights should be, not for the system to just decide randomly. that is the entire purpose of the CR system after all.

hachface

2014-09-11, 09:36 PM

It's not. CR is very mechanistic in 5e, and it relates to the monster's HP and proficiency modifier. And probably stats, too, and maybe damage. It doesn't seem to take special abilities into account at all or make any judgment calls. (See: Pixie)

This has always been a problem with attempts to express monster threat levels numerically. 4e has had the most mathematically rigorous monster creation to date -- which was both a virtue and flaw -- and even its monster levels often failed to capture the impact of some monster powers, and was totally powerless to anticipate unexpected interactions between different kinds of monsters put in the same encounter.

This particular example, however, is a particularly egregious case of designer oversight.

obryn

2014-09-11, 09:37 PM

Obviously from my example I'm not talking about six of them at once.
Obviously from my example I'm talking about one of them, unknown to the party, tacked onto an already existing encounter.
Once again, context is your friend.
Okay. Let's talk about six of them at once. Tell me why my scenario is impossible.

First of all, it isn't an interpretation, it's how Bounded Accuracy works.
Secondly, it does not have a superb chance of killing a 2nd level character. It has a moderate chance.
44% is not a moderate chance of character death in D&D. You don't go into encounters with a 44% chance of actually killing a character each and every time.

hachface

2014-09-11, 09:43 PM

Read your quoted text again. This time, notice the words well rested.
You guys are seriously overestimating the chaces of a death. +50%? Really? It has AC 12 and 21 HP. In most 2nd level parties, this thing is dead before it teleports into someone's head.

If played intelligently, it is very likely to ambush a party. If it rolls well on initiative, it could easily attack twice before the party gets a chance to react.

Also, even if it only manages to successfully attack once, it is likely to incapacitate a character through Intelligence reduction. Currently no rules in 5e exist for recovering ability score damage. Who knows how long the Intelligence reduction will last? Maybe the Intelligence damage takes the character out of commission for the rest of the adventure; maybe it renders her permanently unsuitable for adventuring. That would amount to the same thing as character death.

This is bad design for a CR 2 monster. This is the kind of thing that can spoil a new player on D&D forever.

rlc

2014-09-11, 09:48 PM

I die when my brain is eaten? But I got eaten by that T-Rex like ten times that last fight and I was fine!

yeah, pretty much. in all fairness, though, if the t-rex had bothered chewing you, you'd probably be dead, too.

Broken Twin

2014-09-11, 09:53 PM

It doesn't need to kill you to take you out of the game. If it succeeds with it's int-drain attack, then the character is unplayable for however long it takes to regain ability damage in this edition. It is entirely designed around having the element of surprise (fast speed, stealth bonus, guaranteed to know you're there before you know it's there, impossible to hide from...), so it's safe to assume it's getting at least one attack off. The entire monster is immediate win or suck. Which makes for much unfun for all involved. It either goes down instantly and provides no challenge, or it meat-mechs your brute and is likely to inflict severe game-changing damage to your party. There's nothing in that stat-block that prevents it from wearing your tank like a shield of hit points while brain-draining one party member after another. If its current meat shield gets too damaged, it hops to the next meat shield that's laying stunned on the floor.

And it has 21 hp and resistance to physical damage. Okay, mundane physical damage, but how many level 2 mundanes are going to have magic weapons? Besides the one it's now wearing, anyway?

I wouldn't even mind so much if it forced a save on say, Wisdom, with the Devour Intellect attack, then rolled to damage Int. At least then it's not penalizing everyone who's not a wizard.

Pex

2014-09-11, 09:55 PM

Except that this isn't how that works either.

You could easily argue that:
It says nothing of the character dying unless the ID leaves of its own volition.
If you force it out, the character merely has an Int of 0 until you can fix that.
Not dead.
And not going to be dead unless your DM is a d-bag and an idiot by making a perfectly safe, yet fragile, creature leave its safety zone.... which it will almost certainly not do voluntarily because it's intelligent.

DM fiat: The ID eats your memories, but not your actual brain. You only auto-die if it leaves voluntarily.

And this is exactly the kind of garbage that doesn't pass at my table, which is exactly why I love 5e's return to DM empowerment.
That's semantic garbage, and it has no place at the table.

Any DM that wants to overrule it is welcome to, but the rules don't support it.

Will the real Shadow please stand up?

Malifice

2014-09-11, 10:01 PM

obryn

2014-09-11, 10:10 PM

Bob the Fighter 20 also gets a reoll vs DC 12. And even then its 3d6 vs his Intelligence. Also, Bob can drop a fair few of these things a round.

Moral of the story? Dont dump stats in 5th edition.
Every character built with an array has an 8 in a stat. Rolled stats also generally have a low stat.

This is not a "moral of the story" monster. "Dump" stats are an inevitable part of character building, and it's simply going to be INT or CHA for most characters.

SaintRidley

2014-09-11, 10:47 PM

EvilAnagram

2014-09-11, 11:11 PM

It's not like a swarm of these things is considered appropriate for level 2. One of them is worth a party of four level 2 adventurers. Most of the time when you see one of these, it will be part of a bigger encounter for a much higher level party that's dealing with mindflayers because that's how you build a sensible encounter! Its CR will ad to other CRs to create a level-appropriate encounter. Christ, people, at the levels you'll be dealing with these things they'll be one-hit kills.

But fine, let's take a look at what happens if it attacks a party of second level adventurers:

If three out of four of your party members get an attack off, you're looking at a 78% chance of hitting at least twice and a one-in-three shot of all of you hitting. There's a good chance that'll kill it outright.

The chance of no one hitting a 12 AC is 2.7%.

As a DM, far from doing my best to kill the dumb fighter, I would have it go after the smartest member of the group because it's an Intellect Devourer. Jesus Christ. Do you all have killer DMs? Because I try not to do what I can to immediately ruin everyone's day. Intellect Devourers love juicy brains, so it should go after whoever has the juiciest rains.

And keep in mind that while it's easy to die to, there are plenty of shenanigans you can use to get that brain back inside your buddies head. Cleric casts Protection from Good and Evil, someone kills it (it should be pretty badly wounded by the time it managed to do that), Wizard teleports the brain back into your buddy's head. There! He's not dead, just horrifically maimed and suffering extreme brain damage. Cure Wounds, baby!

Hell, just cast Protection from Good and Evil on whoever gets stunned.

Soras Teva Gee

2014-09-11, 11:31 PM

As a DM, far from doing my best to kill the dumb fighter, I would have it go after the smartest member of the group because it's an Intellect Devourer. Jesus Christ. Do you all have killer DMs? Because I try not to do what I can to immediately ruin everyone's day. Intellect Devourers love juicy brains, so it should go after whoever has the juiciest rains.

And keep in mind that while it's easy to die to, there are plenty of shenanigans you can use to get that brain back inside your buddies head. Cleric casts Protection from Good and Evil, someone kills it (it should be pretty badly wounded by the time it managed to do that), Wizard teleports the brain back into your buddy's head. There! He's not dead, just horrifically maimed and suffering extreme brain damage. Cure Wounds, baby!

Hell, just cast Protection from Good and Evil on whoever gets stunned.

While I agree with your general point those counters don't actually work because the ID eats the brain (its not out somewhere, its gone) and implants itself inside not possessing anything.

Honestly I think it depends more on how DMs feel about death in general. Those that want death to not be cheap might tow the line, well roll up a new character that's hardly the worst thing ever. Those that like to keep the party alive to finish the tale probably don't care if the rules keep you alive or not.

Like make it possession. Or just not care about those particular lines in Revivify and Raise Dead.

Giant2005

2014-09-11, 11:55 PM

Every character built with an array has an 8 in a stat. Rolled stats also generally have a low stat.

This is not a "moral of the story" monster. "Dump" stats are an inevitable part of character building, and it's simply going to be INT or CHA for most characters.

I'd be more inclined to believe that the dump stat would usually be either Str or Dex for pretty much everyone that isn't a Barbarian. Barbarians are the only ones that need to use both.

Psyren

2014-09-12, 12:03 AM

One thing to possibly consider- the only time I've ever fought an intellect devourer was in Baldur's Gate and I seem to remember it being an extremely difficult fight there. Might it be intentionally murderous for old time's sake?

It is the first boss of NWN as well.

Or you could wear a helmet. True it doesn't say helmets protect from brain eating but it also doesn't say anywhere that body thief burrows through helmets(as far as I know) so if I was GMing I would rule that helmets protect your brain.

"Magically" seems to suggest your headgear isn't relevant (unless it too is magical in some way, unlikely at level 2.)

obryn

2014-09-12, 12:08 AM

I'd be more inclined to believe that the dump stat would usually be either Str or Dex for pretty much everyone that isn't a Barbarian. Barbarians are the only ones that need to use both.
Strength gives you melee attacks (even with a bad weapon) and carrying capacity. Dex gives you AC (outside heavy armor), initiative, a common save, missile weapons, and finesse weapons.

Intelligence gives you bonuses to some skills, but nothing else.

Given a choice, I'm dumping Int if I have to dump something. If I need Int, then yeah, strength works.

Mikeavelli

2014-09-12, 12:13 AM

2nd edition Intellect Devourers had a weird thing going on where they would only take damage equal to the plus of the magic weapon attacking it. So a +3 weapon would deal 3 damage / hit. They were immune to anything below +3 too. Fortunately, they didn't have all that many hit points.

The ability to eat brains was still there, but was explained as it using the reduction psionic power in order to shrink small enough to actually fit inside.

They were pretty nasty beasties. A good encounter for even mid-high level parties.

As for video games, they were also in Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager. Which has the dubious honor of being one of the best (albeit bug-ridden) D&D video games that no-one has ever played.

MeeposFire

2014-09-12, 12:15 AM

It is the first boss of NWN as well.

"Magically" seems to suggest your headgear isn't relevant (unless it too is magical in some way, unlikely at level 2.)

Actually it was only in NWN. BG lacked intellect devourers though BG2 did have mind flayers.

Malifice

2014-09-12, 12:23 AM

The intellect devourer has a superb chance of killing a 2nd-level character.

Roughly 25 percent chance of killing an Int 10 character.

Dracothius

2014-09-12, 12:26 AM

captpike

2014-09-12, 12:54 AM

Falka

2014-09-12, 12:57 AM

Sure. You do need a raise dead after you cast wish.

Seriously, it's that disappearing brain that cannot be retrieved without wish that really bothers me the most. The only other problem is that I cannot find any information on how long it takes to recover from being completely drained of intelligence.

Yes, it's not literal sight but the name suggests it is pretty clear "vision" i.e. perception of the world. The thing already senses the positions of all creatures within 300 feet without regard for obstacles so clearly blindsight is supposed to give it something more than that.

Oh yeah, lack of brain. Well, Resurrection could already do the trick - you can resurrect people that lack organs (since you can just use a finger or a skeleton). No need for a wish.

Malifice

2014-09-12, 12:57 AM

not if the system tells him its a good idea via the CR system.

How many HP does it have?

What are the chances a party could take it down before it got the chance to act?

That reduces its approx 25 percent chance to kill a PC.

To be fair, a CR2 Ogre targetting a Wizard 2 has about the same chance to insta kill him as well. Will certainly put him on his ass more often than not.

Now Fighters have something to be scared of at CR2.

Falka

2014-09-12, 12:59 AM

I gotta agree that after reading the entry it seems to be meant in addition to mind flayers and not a stand alone encounter.( at least in an area where you could deal with a mind flayer, which would be a lot higher level I assume.) I bet that it's never used earlier then that with an "officially" released adventure. Now if your DM makes up an adventure and throws the ID early at you then that's on your DM.

I however think that a single Intellect Devourer could make for a nice quest. Just like in NwN 1, just one of these things could be responsible for a murder series and the PCs can investigate it. It's pretty nice as a 'boss' monster, or simply, a noticeable threat.

captpike

2014-09-12, 01:01 AM

How many HP does it have?

What are the chances a party could take it down before it got the chance to act?

That reduces its approx 25 percent chance to kill a PC.

To be fair, a CR2 Ogre targetting a Wizard 2 has about the same chance to insta kill him as well. Will certainly put him on his ass more often than not.

Now Fighters have something to be scared of at CR2.

if your new to the system you will not be able to judge that, all you can do is use the CR system and hope for the best.

Malifice

2014-09-12, 01:10 AM

if your new to the system you will not be able to judge that, all you can do is use the CR system and hope for the best.

Whats its AC and HP? Low enough that a Fighter 2 (or Paladin 2) could smash it down in one action? Or A Wizard 2 could put it to sleep? And so forth?

That kind of reduces its potency somewhat.

Assuming it gets a go, and targets the Fighter (instead of the Wizard), with an Int of 10 gets a 45 percent chance to make the save, followed by a 60 percent chance to have his Int reduced to 0 and killed.

Its roughly a 25 percent chance of death. Again, assuming the Fighter is targetted, and the ID gets an action off.

Which is about the same chance of death a Wizard 2 would cop from a hit to the noggin from an Ogre.

captpike

2014-09-12, 01:15 AM

Whats its AC and HP? Low enough that a Fighter 2 (or Paladin 2) could smash it down in one action? Or A Wizard 2 could put it to sleep? And so forth?

That kind of reduces its potency somewhat.

Assuming it gets a go, and targets the Fighter (instead of the Wizard), with an Int of 10 gets a 45 percent chance to make the save, followed by a 60 percent chance to have his Int reduced to 0 and killed.

Its roughly a 25 percent chance of death. Again, assuming the Fighter is targetted, and the ID gets an action off.

Which is about the same chance of death a Wizard 2 would cop from a hit to the noggin from an Ogre.

except there are ways to deal with hp damage, and a wizard who is in front has screwed up, a fighter who is in front is doing his job.

a CR 2 fight is suppose to have very little chance of killing a party of 4 level 2s, would you call 25% chance "very little"?

Malifice

2014-09-12, 01:19 AM

A wizard who is in front has screwed up, a fighter who is in front is doing his job.

Agree. But it happens.

a CR 2 fight is suppose to have very little chance of killing a party of 4 level 2s, would you call 25% chance "very little"?

Youre looking at the 25 percent in isolation. Its actually a lot lower due to initative. On average at least 2 PC's out of 4 will act before it, possibly killing it before it gets a chance to act.

Also, maybe the ID wants to eat the Wizards brain. It looks a lot fatter and juicier.

captpike

2014-09-12, 01:22 AM

Agree. But it happens.

Youre looking at the 25 percent in isolation. Its actually a lot lower due to initative. On average at least 2 PC's out of 4 will act before it, possibly killing it before it gets a chance to act.

Also, maybe the ID wants to eat the Wizards brain. It looks a lot fatter and juicier.

this is a creature made to hide, the most likely scenario is being jumped by it by far.

Shadow

2014-09-12, 01:22 AM

Youre looking at the 25 percent in isolation. Its actually a lot lower due to initative. On average at least 2 PC's out of 4 will act before it, possibly killing it before it gets a chance to act.

Also, maybe the ID wants to eat the Wizards brain. It looks a lot fatter and juicier.

See, this is what they don't understand. We've already explained to them how low the chances are and all the variables that need to fall perfectly in place for that 25% chance to even come into play, but they still think the sky is falling.

captpike

2014-09-12, 01:24 AM

See, this is what they don't understand. We've already explained to them how low the chances are and all the variables that need to fall perfectly in place for that 25% chance to even come into play, but they still think the sky is falling.

did you miss the part about how good it is at knowing when your coming and hiding? also even if its only 10% its too big for a even CR fight.

Shadow

2014-09-12, 01:26 AM

did you miss the part about how good it is at knowing when your coming and hiding? also even if its only 10% its too big for a even CR fight.

Thank you for proving my point so well.

Malifice

2014-09-12, 01:30 AM

did you miss the part about how good it is at knowing when your coming and hiding?

Whats the odds of the ID dying then? If its smart, maybe it wont try and take on a Party given the odds.

also even if its only 10% its too big for a even CR fight.

An Ogre has a 5 percent chance with every swing to Crit. Thats auto death for anyone barring a Moon Duid.

The Ogre lasts more than 2 rounds on average as well due to its high HP.

Its a deadly encounter for sure, but 2nd level PC's in DnD are squishy.

Cambrian

2014-09-12, 01:31 AM

The good news is that you can either have these guys in your campaign or you can have druids.

If you have these guys, every animal is probably being ridden around by a brain devouring horror. If you have druids, they've hunted these guys to extinction because they can take a forest and turn it into a horrorfest in short order (I doubt animals are any good at int saves).

If your campaign takes place in the middle of the war between the druids and the intellect devourers, hopefully your characters are at least fourth level or have good int saves.I believe intellect devourers according to lore crave intelligence and so low int animals would be safe. It actually might mean that the Int Devourer might not want to consume the Int 8-9 brain and instead go after the more intelligent characters (within reason).

Also I'm not sure how often the PCs will encounter these guys out running around-- they might at times lurk and attempt to ambush them, but I don't foresee an intellect devourer just running headlong at the party. Instead a creature is often inhabited by the devourer and it pops out after the PCs engage the host. So keeping melee fighters away is sometimes difficult.

This seems like one of those situations where having inspiration will be essential. Roleplay or die ;)

captpike

2014-09-12, 01:35 AM

Whats the odds of the ID dying then? If its smart, maybe it wont try and take on a Party given the odds.

An Ogre has a 5 percent chance with every swing to Crit. Thats auto death for anyone barring a Moon Duid.

The Ogre lasts more than 2 rounds on average as well due to its high HP.

Its a deadly encounter for sure, but 2nd level PC's in DnD are squishy.

it only has to live long enough to get two attacks in, after that it gets to use the PC it killed as a suit, if that one gets low he hops to another. if it get surprise then that means only one round (with one PC not acting) it has enough hp for that.

just because other creatures are broken does not mean this one is not.

Shadow

2014-09-12, 01:37 AM

Also I'm not sure how often the PCs will encounter these guys out running around-- they might at times lurk and attempt to ambush them, but I don't foresee an intellect devourer just running headlong at the party. Instead a creature is often inhabited by the devourer and it pops out after the PCs engage the host. So keeping melee fighters away is sometimes difficult.

This seems like one of those situations where having inspiration will be essential. Roleplay or die ;)

And they're also created from the brains of mind flayers' thralls. So it's not like they're just out wandering around for a random encounter. They are still thralls, just in a different form.

Mr.Moron

2014-09-12, 01:37 AM

Meh. It's super-deadly that's for sure or at minimum a very frustrating stat loss. On the other hand it's super easy to kill, even with weapon DR 21 hit points isn't much at all. It seems swingy if manageable. I probably wouldn't use it in most cases since it's not the type of encounter I like to run but it doesn't seem all that degenerate.

akaddk

2014-09-12, 01:40 AM

I don't know about you, but most PC's I've seen are already basically brain-dead.

archaeo

2014-09-12, 02:19 AM

Man, y'all are getting awfully worked up over one monster out of literally hundreds of options.

But no, I get it, it's really all about that dastardly CR. You sort of have to skip over the fluff, which discussed how they're the guard dogs of the Underdark, to get to that CR, which is presumably all you're supposed to care about. I mean, obviously, your level 2 PCs are going to be taking trips to the Underdark right away, or maybe an Intellect Devourer just happened to traipse out one day in order to enjoy the sunshine.

captpike

2014-09-12, 02:25 AM

Triclinium

2014-09-12, 02:27 AM

I can understand being a little upset about the brain-eating thing. Wish isn't really a reasonable suggestion against a CR 2 monster. Then again mummy rot is still a thing, so it's hardly the only thing that circumvents raise dead.

On the other hand, a monster having a 25% chance of killing an on-level character isn't really that surprising or unique. Nobody would even blink at a monster dealing 3d6 damage at CR 2. And yet that stands about the same chance of outright killing any character with a d6 hit die as the ID does against a lower int character. And since 21 hp and 12 ac aren't particularly good, what we have here is actually pretty in-line with other CR 2 monsters, if not a little worse.

Just because it stands a better chance of killing the party fighter than the party wizard does not make it some kind of imbalanced combat powerhouse.

Shadow

2014-09-12, 02:28 AM

why do you assume everyone uses the default fluff? maybe I want to use them as a psionic construct.

So you're willing to change the fluff, but you're freaking out about a +4 stealth and are unwilling to change that, or any other aspect of the stat block?
But the fluff, that's perfectly fair game. Not only is it fair game, but we should assume that you'll change it, and nothing else.
Right.

TheDeadlyShoe

2014-09-12, 02:31 AM

Proper DM use of an Intellect Devourer would probably be munching on a valued NPC's brains when your attention is elsewhere. See if they even notice that she talks a little creepily now and keeps trying to get people alone. Bonus points if the PCs take it as romantic interest.

IDs also seem appropriate challenges to throw at a Great Old One Warlock, just so he can show off psychic resistance and telepathy and such.

I agree that people are overestimating the ID's chances. It's not even about the damage a party can dish out - it's that if a party member gets incapacitated by this little sucker every goes Holy ****! and busts out their entangles and thunderous smites and such.

P.S. What happens if an ID eats a wildshaped druid's brains?

Triclinium

2014-09-12, 02:34 AM

P.S. What happens if an ID eats a wildshaped druid's brains?

I believe dead is dead. Even for druids. Especially since this isn't damage being dealt, it just removes a critical body part.

captpike

2014-09-12, 02:39 AM

So you're willing to change the fluff, but you're freaking out about a +4 stealth and are unwilling to change that, or any other aspect of the stat block?
But the fluff, that's perfectly fair game. Not only is it fair game, but we should assume that you'll change it, and nothing else.
Right.

because the game rules and math are not effected when I change the fluff, that is what you really pay for when you buy the game after all.

also every setting changes the fluff, so unless they only ever support one setting, yes they have to assume the fluff changes from one table to another.

Malifice

2014-09-12, 02:39 AM

I believe dead is dead. Even for druids. Especially since this isn't damage being dealt, it just removes a critical body part.

Does the body part come back when the Druid assumes his natural form.

What about druids losing... tails?

DeAnno

2014-09-12, 02:41 AM

Does anyone know how you recover from 0 Int if you don't get brainsucked? Do you basically need Greater Restoration cast on you (a 5th level spell), or does it heal naturally? I think the more annoying thing about this creature is that in one turn (during a surprise round, Alertness feat tax hello!) it can effectively KO you for the day, not that it can kill you in two.

Shadow

2014-09-12, 02:42 AM

Does the body part come back when the Druid assumes his natural form.

What about druids losing... tails?

The druid keeps its own mental stats when in wild shape. That means it has its own mind, and that mind was just eaten.
The druid does not keep its own physical stats when in wild shape. That means it has the animal's body, and this is represented by teh fact that the animal's HP and the druid's HP are separate values, independant of one another. So if it loses an appendage in wild shape, it would keep that appendage in humainoid form unless the DM decides otherwise.

Mr.Moron

2014-09-12, 02:45 AM

DeAnno

2014-09-12, 02:48 AM

How in the world does one monster translate into a "feat tax", when feats are just an non-standard variant rule in the first place?

It isn't the one monster, it's what the one monster implies. Clearly 5e is a place where combat is very often decided in the surprise round or the first round.

Triclinium

2014-09-12, 02:48 AM

Does the body part come back when the Druid assumes his natural form.

What about druids losing... tails?

Bizarrely enough, there is no mention of dismemberment in the Wild Shape rules. Or, you know, anywhere else. But it's probably pretty safe to assume that since the brain is an organ that is shared by both the druid and whatever animal the druid may choose to be, either form will die without it.

As for tails, now I am imagining druids with phantom limb pain for the tail that they don't have.

It isn't the one monster, it's what the one monster implies. Clearly 5e is a place where combat is very often decided in the surprise round or the first round.

As clearly demonstrated by this single monster. Also very often is a strong term for "sometimes, if all the rolls work out well".

Mr.Moron

2014-09-12, 02:49 AM

It isn't the one monster, it's what the one monster implies. Clearly 5e is a place where combat is very often decided in the surprise round or the first round.

Not sure I follow. Could you lay out the logic of that implication?

archaeo

2014-09-12, 02:53 AM

why do you assume everyone uses the default fluff? maybe I want to use them as a psionic construct.

It's not so much the individual fluff as the ecology fluff, which sets the Intellect Devourer in a pretty specific setting (the Underdark) and gives it very specific friends (Mind Flayers). I'm inclined to give the designers the benefit of the doubt and assume that they wrote this monster with the intention that players run into it relatively later in the game, when it's reasonable for them to be someplace called "the Underdark."

But heck, captpike, in the alternate dimension where you're running 5e, I would tell you to go for it. Throw one at a level 2 party, even. Said party has the numbers on its side, after all. I think it would work great in a gritty campaign where the players are expecting to die, perhaps by having a creature literally teleport inside their skull to devour their brain. If your players were expecting a light fantasy romp, however, they might be a little miffed.

Malifice

2014-09-12, 02:56 AM

The druid keeps its own mental stats when in wild shape. That means it has its own mind, and that mind was just eaten.

Brains are not minds. Google dualism.

Shadow

2014-09-12, 03:01 AM

Brains are not minds. Google dualism.

In this case, the words brain and mind should be synonymous.
The body cannot function without the mind.
Unless you'd rather just let druids have a free pass on this creature....

http://larkable.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/morpheus.png

Malifice

2014-09-12, 03:05 AM

In this case, the words brain and mind should be synonymous.

They have different meanings totally.

The body cannot function without the mind.

Yet in DnD I can shunt my mind to other people (even inanimate objects) via magic and psionics. I can also create a mind (sentient construct or intelligent sword) without a brain at all. One doesnt need a brain to have a mind in DnD 'reality'.

Unless you'd rather just let druids have a free pass on this creature....

Probably not. Just an intresting thought.

akaddk

2014-09-12, 04:19 AM

How in the world does one monster translate into a "feat tax", when feats are just an non-standard variant rule in the first place?

Because people here like to exaggerate to the point of absurdity and use ridiculous claims to support their arguments that 5e is "teh suxxor".

DeAnno

2014-09-12, 04:55 AM

Not sure I follow. Could you lay out the logic of that implication?

If the designers think it's ok for combat to be rocket tag at level 2 in the first place, I expect to see more rocket tag than that one monster in the MM. Rocket tag style combats are often disproportionately more dangerous than extended combats for PCs. Resources are best used to ensure that you survive the bad day, instead of have an even easier time for the good day. I suppose it doesn't quite amount to Alertness being a tax, but I personally like my character to survive the hard encounters rather than die in them. Pixies are another (even more extreme) example of Rocket Tag combat emphasizing surprise and stealth (if you go first a single Magic Missile puts paid to all the Pixies, if they go first they unleash all their nasty SLAs and the party might wipe)

It's not particularly a bad thing that stuff is set up this way, just like having certain classes being good and bad in earlier editions was just the way things were. The thrust of my comment is that feats like Alertness and Lucky will be very strong in this system due to how the monsters are built.

Mr.Moron

2014-09-12, 05:04 AM

If the designers think it's ok for combat to be rocket tag at level 2 in the first place, I expect to see more rocket tag than that one monster in the MM.
This is an assumption though. I'm not seeing where the ID entry implies anything here. You're just seeing one entry and claiming it as representative with no basis.

Ellington

2014-09-12, 06:20 AM

It's a good take on the Intellect Devourer, but the CR is too low (as seems to be the case with a lot of monsters shown so far). I know CR is handled differently this edition but I'm probably going to have to go by ear as to what creatures to sic on my players.

Glarnog

2014-09-12, 07:21 AM

Could an ID nest inside another ID. Or could an ID nest inside an ID that is already nesting in side another creature?

Broken Twin

2014-09-12, 07:23 AM

After a healthy debate with a friend over this monster IRL, I've come to the conclusion that my only real issue with it is that its CR is non-indicative of the idea that it seems to be designed to be run as a smaller mob next to higher CR monsters. There's plenty in the text to suggest it, but nothing that's going to be immediately obvious to new GMs. I'll reserve my judgement on whether its save-or-suck effects is indicative of the 5E design philosophy or not after I can look at the MM as a whole.

ambartanen

2014-09-12, 07:57 AM

Could an ID nest inside another ID. Or could an ID nest inside an ID that is already nesting in side another creature?

They can only take over the bodies of humanoids :smallwink:

EvilAnagram

2014-09-12, 07:57 AM

While I agree with your general point those counters don't actually work because the ID eats the brain (its not out somewhere, its gone) and implants itself inside not possessing anything.
Yes, but it consumes the brain by teleporting in there and magically consuming it. I'm willing to interpret that as not actually chewing into and tearing apart the brain.

And really, it's not that terrible. You can use it as a smaller mob who gets lobbed into a higher level mindflayer encounter, or you could make it the terrifying beast who's skulking around corners and attacking people in a horror encounter. It'll be fun.

Fwiffo86

2014-09-12, 08:30 AM

I just skimmed this thread because it exploded in size in less than 24 hours. So what I'm seeing is people freaking out that a couple of bad rolls can get your brain eaten and your body taken. This is fair. I understand this. It's scary.

Is it bad design? I don't think so. I think this monster does to players what players do to just about everything else. Scares them ****less. I think its designed to be a horrifying encounter at 2, and progressively less scary as you increase in level.

Lets also take into consideration that it is dangerous to low INT characters, but significantly less so for high INT characters. This is really no different that a magically resistant lizard attacking your wizard. He is not equipped to deal with it by himself (by the default wizard setting), he will need the assistance of his party. Just as the low INT members will need the high INT members to deal with this thing.

I think we as a whole need to stop thinking in "a one character vs X" mentality. The game isn't designed that way. It's default condition is a party of 4, not 1. While the fighter will have a problem with Monster A, the wizard may be especially equipped for it, or the cleric, or the rogue. My point is that taking things on a 1 v 1 comparison is counter intuitive when we know the game was not designed that way.

When compared to a party of (core 4), this monster seems perfectly fair, and accurately built to me. Granted, we don't have the full stats for it, but I'm not seeing anything here that suggests a standard party can't take this thing out in a couple of rounds. Certainly before it does anymore than stun someone.

The_Ditto

2014-09-12, 08:45 AM

Unfortunately, 5e didn't pay attention to:
"Stupidity breeds character creation, not bad luck."

It just sucks that an unlucky situation can just outright nuke some character with very few options of prevention/recovery.
Even if the party can handle it, the fact it pretty much insta-nukes 1 character is bad design. :smallmad:

of course, just re-read my post and realized the irony in that :)
hah ... referring to stupidity in player, not character, of course ... but ahh, the irony.

Fwiffo86

2014-09-12, 08:46 AM

I counter with the party insta-nuking encounters all the time. How is it different now that the roles are reversed?

ambartanen

2014-09-12, 08:47 AM

I counter with the party insta-nuking encounters all the time. How is it different now that the roles are reversed?

You usually don't have the whole table invested in the story being told about the other side of the encounter.

Fwiffo86

2014-09-12, 08:55 AM

You usually don't have the whole table invested in the story being told about the other side of the encounter.

True. But I'm not considering that aspect at the moment. Simply analyzing the equivalency of threat. Party vs. Monster.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-12, 09:10 AM

You usually don't have the whole table invested in the story being told about the other side of the encounter.

is this an argument for PCs never dying?

obryn

2014-09-12, 09:12 AM

I counter with the party insta-nuking encounters all the time. How is it different now that the roles are reversed?

True. But I'm not considering that aspect at the moment. Simply analyzing the equivalency of threat. Party vs. Monster.
There's never an equivalent threat in party vs. monster. You do not expect 50%, 25%, or even 10% attrition in a party for a single encounter.

hachface

2014-09-12, 09:18 AM

Is it bad design? I don't think so. I think this monster does to players what players do to just about everything else. Scares them ****less. I think its designed to be a horrifying encounter at 2, and progressively less scary as you increase in level.

The bolded part is the essence of the controversy.

My problem with the intellect devourer is not that it's a nasty monster. Nasty monsters are part of D&D! My problem with the intellect devourer is that it is an inappropriate creature for its stated CR.

A CR 2 is not meant to signify a "horrifying encounter" for a level 2 party. A CR 2 encounter is explicitly meant to challenge a level 2 party with a minimal risk of killing a character.

I am by no means arguing that a level 2 party should never face a horrifying challenge. However, a horrifying challenge for a level 2 party should be something like a CR 5.

As written, this monster is a trap for novice DMs.

Fwiffo86

2014-09-12, 09:19 AM

There's never an equivalent threat in party vs. monster. You do not expect 50%, 25%, or even 10% attrition in a party for a single encounter.

:smallsmile:

Then its not WAR!!!

Actually, I expect resource expenditure to substitute for player characters. Since monsters in 5e have limited options, but those options tend to be unlimited use, their only quantifiable resource is their hit points. So basically its...

Monster HP total vs. Player Character abilities (spell slots, second wind)

So a loss of 10-50% resources per encounter is entirely feasible.

hachface

2014-09-12, 09:23 AM

Thank you for proving my point so well.

Also, please cut out this snark.
No one is saying that the whole game is a catastrophe because one creature in the Monster Manual is broken for its CR. However, in the absence of complete monster rules, we are trying to glean as much information as we can about what kind of game 5e is actually going to be, from its stated design philosophy to its implementation of that philosophy to its quality control. We have a right to express concern if a preview monster breaks the CR system right out of the gate.

Z3ro

2014-09-12, 09:24 AM

The bolded part is the essence of the controversy.

My problem with the intellect devourer is not that it's a nasty monster. Nasty monsters are part of D&D! My problem with the intellect devourer is that it is an inappropriate creature for its stated CR.

A CR 2 is not meant to signify a "horrifying encounter" for a level 2 party. A CR 2 encounter is explicitly meant to challenge a level 2 party with a minimal risk of killing a character.

I am by no means arguing that a level 2 party should never face a horrifying challenge. However, a horrifying challenge for a level 2 party should be something like a CR 5.

Disagree with the idea of horrifying having anything to do with CR. An over-CR encounter can be trivially ended (and certainly not terrifying), while an under-CR encounter can cause significant dread (think rust monster).

As written, this monster is a trap for novice DMs.

This I think could be a real problem.

INDYSTAR188

2014-09-12, 09:31 AM

At my table this monster would almost certainly approach the party while it's already 'housed' inside an NPC. It would spring out at whatever time it felt was most appropriate, like say when the party was taking a rest, or involved in some brutal combat. I'm of the opinion that this monster would prefer to eat the most intelligent brain first but would not hesitate to strike at the earliest opportunity. Also, I would let a player cast restoration to allow another player to 'regrow' the brain in 1d4 hours/days.

hachface

2014-09-12, 09:33 AM

Disagree with the idea of horrifying having anything to do with CR. An over-CR encounter can be trivially ended (and certainly not terrifying), while an under-CR encounter can cause significant dread (think rust monster).

If this is true -- and often has been in prior editions, and may very well be so in this one -- then it means the the CR system is broken. Broken as in not working as intended. If an over-CR encounter can be trivially ended, then its CR was inappropriate. This is true by definition.

I recognize that there are intrinsic difficulties in expressing monster challenge numerically. However, if WotC is going to tell DMs that they should consider CRs when designing encounters, they should give DMs a system that actually provides the DM with sound information. As a DM who has been running D&D games since 2e, I know that I'm going to have to eyeball everything and regard the stated challenge ratings with radical skepticism. If I were a novice DM, I would be in trouble.

Z3ro

2014-09-12, 09:39 AM

If this is true -- and often has been in prior editions, and may very well be so in this one -- then it means the the CR system is broken. Broken as in not working as intended. If an over-CR encounter can be trivially ended, then its CR was inappropriate. This is true by definition.

I recognize that there are intrinsic difficulties in expressing monster challenge numerically. However, if WotC is going to tell DMs that they should consider CRs when designing encounters, they should give DMs a system that actually provides the DM with sound information. As a DM who has been running D&D games since 2e, I know that I'm going to have to eyeball everything and regard the stated challenge ratings with radical skepticism. If I were a novice DM, I would be in trouble.

But there's two factors you're not considering:

The first is the make-up of the party. In our ID example, a party of four wizards obviously has an easier time killing and avoiding being killed than four fighters. Since character creation is up to the player, no CR system will ever be perfect, or even very good. They're guidelines that the DM has to adjucate because of the human element of the game.

The second is that player's fear almost always has nothing to do with the actual difficulty of the encounter, but the perception around the encounter. As a simple example, a surprise encounter, even if easier, is often viewed with more fear than an encounter the party can plan for.

obryn

2014-09-12, 09:42 AM

I'm still not sure what a 10th-level party could do against a group of 6 of these attacking from ambush.

They don't need to stun their own potential meat-borg, you know?

EvilAnagram

2014-09-12, 09:45 AM

The bolded part is the essence of the controversy.

My problem with the intellect devourer is not that it's a nasty monster. Nasty monsters are part of D&D! My problem with the intellect devourer is that it is an inappropriate creature for its stated CR.

A CR 2 is not meant to signify a "horrifying encounter" for a level 2 party. A CR 2 encounter is explicitly meant to challenge a level 2 party with a minimal risk of killing a character.

I am by no means arguing that a level 2 party should never face a horrifying challenge. However, a horrifying challenge for a level 2 party should be something like a CR 5.

As written, this monster is a trap for novice DMs.
The CR of different monsters is added together to create a level-appropriate encounter. This is meant to be part of a higher level encounter, and it adds CR 2 by itself.

You can put it against a level 2 party, and they can spank it in a fight if they have any warning at all. If they don't, it can get scary, so a DM should only use it when he wants to terrify his party and force them to face real danger. There is nothing wrong with this.

Demonic Spoon

2014-09-12, 09:48 AM

That's not strictly true.

A monster’s challenge rating tells you how great a
threat the monster is. An appropriately equipped and
well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to
defeat a monster that has a challenge rating equal to its
level without suffering any deaths. For example, a party
of four 3rd-level characters should find a monster with
a challenge rating of 3 to be a worthy challenge, but not
a deadly one.

I don't know - maybe it would be better to rule that a Restoration can revive a character that has had its brain consumed.

TheDeadlyShoe

2014-09-12, 09:48 AM

If this is true -- and often has been in prior editions, and may very well be so in this one -- then it means the the CR system is broken. Broken as in not working as intended. If an over-CR encounter can be trivially ended, then its CR was inappropriate. This is true by definition.

it's more like the CR system has been and will always be a rough guide whose applicability can vary enormously. ANYTHING with a save or die can cause party casualties it really doesnt matter what CR they slap onto it.

i would guess the ID is CR2 on the basis of its psychic damage which is a little high for level 1s even if they beat off the mind-suck.

fundamentally though if someone want to argue that a ID is too strong for a level 2 party of 4 then we need to see a scrimmaged out fight where the party can't deal with it, not just 'oh the **** for brains guy dies in a vacuum :('

sure, it'd be hard for a level 2 party to deal with an ambush assault by an ID but that's because ambushing is enormously powerful! It HAS to be taken into account when the DM is setting up an encounter.

hachface

2014-09-12, 09:51 AM

But there's two factors you're not considering:

The first is the make-up of the party. In our ID example, a party of four wizards obviously has an easier time killing and avoiding being killed than four fighters. Since character creation is up to the player, no CR system will ever be perfect, or even very good. They're guidelines that the DM has to adjucate because of the human element of the game.

The second is that player's fear almost always has nothing to do with the actual difficulty of the encounter, but the perception around the encounter. As a simple example, a surprise encounter, even if easier, is often viewed with more fear than an encounter the party can plan for.

Neither of these are really directly relevant to my point. Here is my point: CR does not tell the DM what it is supposed to tell the DM.

According to the rules, a monster's CR tells that DM that a monster will be a moderate but not lethal challenge for a four-person party of that level.

But that's not what CR actually tells you. CR is instead a simple formula (of which the details are still unknown) that either determines or is derived from (again, don't know) the numerical aspects of the creature's combat effectiveness: hit points, number of attacks, damage per round, that kind of thing. It is powerless to capture or define any aspect of the creature that is not reducible to numbers.

This would be fine if the published rules were up front about this! If, instead of telling the DM that they can use a CR 2 monster on a well-rested party and be comfortable that no one will die, the rules said something like "the challenge rating is an estimate of a monster's combat effectiveness based on numerical factors; DMs should read monster descriptions carefully before determining if a monster is an appropriate challenge for the party" then I would be much happier.

Also, if a monster has special abilities that allow it to punch above its CR -- as this little bugger certainly does -- that should be called out in the stat blocks. If you want to create an edition that relies on the judgment of DMs, you should be giving DMs sensible advice at every turn. Do not turn them out into the ambiguous wilderness without at least a compass and roughly sketched map.

Fwiffo86

2014-09-12, 09:55 AM

Neither of these are really directly relevant to my point. Here is my point: CR does not tell the DM what it is supposed to tell the DM.

According to the rules, a monster's CR tells that DM that a monster will be a moderate but not lethal challenge for a four-person party of that level.

But that's not what CR actually tells you. CR is instead a simple formula (of which the details are still unknown) that either determines or is derived from (again, don't know) the numerical aspects of the creature's combat effectiveness: hit points, number of attacks, damage per round, that kind of thing. It is powerless to capture or define any aspect of the creature that is not reducible to numbers.

This would be fine if the published rules were up front about this! If, instead of telling the DM that they can use a CR 2 monster on a well-rested party and be comfortable that no one will die, the rules said something like "the challenge rating is an estimate of a monster's combat effectiveness based on numerical factors; DMs should read monster descriptions carefully before determining if a monster is an appropriate challenge for the party" then I would be much happier.

Also, if a monster has special abilities that allow it to punch above its CR -- as this little bugger certainly does -- that should be called out in the stat blocks. If you want to create an edition that relies on the judgment of DMs, you should be giving DMs sensible advice at every turn. Do not turn them out into the ambiguous wilderness without at least a compass and roughly sketched map.

I agree with this except for one thing. We haven't seen the actual XP budget cost for this thing. What if its CR 2 but has a budget cost of 600? or 1200? I think CR + Budget cost is what you have to look at. Not just one or the other.

Kaww

2014-09-12, 09:57 AM

EvilAnagram

2014-09-12, 10:02 AM

I'm still not sure what a 10th-level party could do against a group of 6 of these attacking from ambush.

They don't need to stun their own potential meat-borg, you know?

Don't Paladins have a class feature that confers protection from good and evil? I'm away from book right now, so I can't be sure.

hachface

2014-09-12, 10:04 AM

I believe you are all missing a point here. Intellect devourer is on page 191. More importantly letter I is on page 191. There is still a lot of alphabet after I...

As for ID being scary the answer is - it depends. If you ask me it's fine; bad luck on die rolls should kill characters. PCs aren't immortal. I started a lvl 1 adventure (5th ED, 7 PCs) two weeks ago and brought 30 blank character sheets to the session. We have 13 left after the party fought immortal zombies for two sessions and I kept rolling avg 15 on d20 rolls (at the end of session 2 they read in the PHB that radiant damage kills zombies without a save and things have taken a turn for the better).

High lethality in a gaming system can be good design, but only if character generation is speedy.

Character generation in 5e is less time-consuming than 3.x or 4e but not nearly as fast as the early dungeon crawlers that were 1e and BECMI. Furthermore, 5e puts emphasis on crafting a personality and backstory for your characters -- an emphasis notably lacking in the earliest days of D&D, when player characters were assumed to be fairly anonymous and expendable. So 5e demands a greater investment in your characters: a greater investment of time, a greater investment of creativity, and even a greater investment in emotion, since you're encouraged to make them into real personalities. This means that character death is much more consequential in 5e than in truly old-schools systems.

Does this mean that player characters should never die in 5e? Of course not. But it does mean that character death should be rarer than in the old-school systems.

Having to create 13 new characters over the course of a single session sounds really, really unfun to me, and I am far from the only one who feels this way. If that suits your playing group, then more power to you. But I would prefer to spend less time making characters and more time playing characters.

obryn

2014-09-12, 10:06 AM

I agree with this except for one thing. We haven't seen the actual XP budget cost for this thing. What if its CR 2 but has a budget cost of 600? or 1200? I think CR + Budget cost is what you have to look at. Not just one or the other.
Yeah we have; it's in the article.

SaintRidley

2014-09-12, 10:08 AM

I'm still not sure what a 10th-level party could do against a group of 6 of these attacking from ambush.

They don't need to stun their own potential meat-borg, you know?

Fireball. Or a 5th level AoE blast. Fried Intellect Devourers for dinner. Fireball out of a 5th level slot will do on average 35 damage on a failed save, 17 damage on a passed save. Some are going to die, the rest are going to die from literally the first stiff wind to hit them. This doesn't account for, for instance, any bonuses that a 10th level Wiz/Sorc might have from class features to boost that damage, or the existence of the rest of the party.