Erfworld 32

[starwoof]

You know, what Stanley is saying makes a lot of sense.

[scwizard]

It seems pretty obvious to me that the pliers are going to be attuned to Parson.

[Sky_Schemer]

I really, really liked #31 and 32 as a set.

[Deuce Obelus]

My question is, what happens after the coming battle is over?

[starwoof]

Then this book is over, and they get started on the new one. Thats what I was led to believe.

[oogabooga]

I really, really liked #31 and 32 as a set.
Me too. It adds to the stuff established in the beginning about how Stanley is searching for the rest of the Tools.

I like the shot of Ansom looking puzzled, as well.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

So, does Stanley think that he's holy?

[Caledonian]

Perhaps the Arkentools only function for someone who believes that they deserve to wield them - they're tools of gods, after all. Perhaps one must have the ego to reach for such power before it can be grasped.

And "Holy" most certainly does not mean "good". The sacred is not inherently altruistic, safe, or comfortable.

[Golem]

I duly beleive that my opinion of Stanley has shifted, with this strip. He may not have tactical intelligence, but Stanley is not stupid. He knows what he believes in, and to my shock he raises cognant points. While he may not make a good military leader, I can now see how he's the leader anyway.

[Euphemism]

Watching Stanley go Lou Ferigno is strangely chilling.

[Mattaeu]

[/waiting for Parson to get told off]

[asqwasqw]

Stanley is scary... especially his facial expression...

[WarriorTribble]

It seems pretty obvious to me that the pliers are going to be attuned to Parson.That would be fun, but I think it'll be more interesting if Wanda got it. Since the object seems to affect the undead it'll make a bit more sense imo. Not to mention I'd love to see Stanley's face when he finds out his long suffering subordinate is now his equal. :smallbiggrin:Ah, Stanley what would be do w/o people who think might makes right?

[Woot Spitum]

The plot thickens...

Now the question remains, is Gobwin Knob truly non-evil, or do they just believe they aren't evil?

[OzymandiasVolt]

Hmmm...yup, Stanley's still evil.
If you actually believe what he says then you're very gullible. :P

[Om]

Religious fervor... is there anything it can't solve? :smallbiggrin:

I like this. There was always the tendency to view Stanley as an impotent short guy. Now we know that while he's no Napoleon on the battlefield, off it is a different matter.

[Fenix]

hmm... pretty sinister...I like it :D

[nadira]

amazingly done. great storytelling!

[blackout]

....Stanley has gone completely bonkers. He's so power-mad that he needs to be replaced.

[Aerysil]

Ah yes, the age old debate. Recent age anyway.

It was easier to believe in the concept of good and evil about, oh, 65 years ago, when the world was dealing with a force that was convinced it needed to perform a cleansing for a glory of its own choosing.

Nowadays the concept is mired in politics and a struggle more basic to the conflicts of what is considered right and good. It will all come to a head again, eventually. Frankly I think some groups just try to tell the other one it's wrong just to incite conflict to validate themselves on something ambiguous.

I'll leave it to everyone else to make sense of that. Many seem to think they have the answers, anyway. Expect more conflict to ensue.

[Rift_Wolf]

Stanley might not believe he's evil, but then he's not gonna admit if he was. The worst atrocities are performed by those who believe they're right.

[Learnedguy]

I agree with him. There is no evil, no good, only politics, and what else did he mention? Anyway, although he might not be evil, he has started a war and probably killed loads of innocents. And that ain't nice in my book. Quite the oppisite, it's mean. Stanley is a mean guy!

That's why he rocks^^

[nothingclever]

I still wouldn't judge Stanley as evil yet because we don't know about Ansom's past. Maybe he was an enemy of Stanley and attacked first or forced him to attack by taking all the land around him. They could both be rivals and Stanley started the official war first. Or maybe he's just a big power hungy jerk but he'd rule people fairly despite that after he won.

[mport2004]

Good and evil depends on an individuals perspective

[factotum]

I actually have quite a bit of respect for Parson in this episode. He looks like a soft-willed sack of blubber, but he must have some genuine courage to stand his ground (and even ARGUE BACK!) when he's facing an angry midget riding a fire-breathing monster. (The alternative is that he still doesn't really believe it's all real and therefore thinks he can't possibly die, of course...:smallconfused: ).

[happyturtle]

I like that Parson was totally not intimidated by the Arkenhammer/Dwagon show. Go Parson!

[KitsuneChan]

Well, Parson does have reason not to be intimidated by the pwnsome fire-breathingness of the red dwagon. He thinks Erfworld is his subconcious still.

[Maerad of Pellinor]

So why was Stanley so mad about being called Evil if Evil doesn't exist?

[Dib]

Good and evil depends on an individuals perspective

...

how did I not see that line coming?

oh well... great page today... I cant believe I've never talked about Erf on the forums before... though the art style occasionally has something odd about it (still better than what I can do though) this one was excellently drawn... great job

[Blood]

For once, some explanations instead of more confusion and loose ends. :smallwink:

[SmartAlec]

So why was Stanley so mad about being called Evil if Evil doesn't exist?

Accusing Stanley of being a Force of Evil is likely the political justification behind Ansom's alliance. I'd bet Stanley's sick of hearing himself referred to as 'the bad guy' - either because he thinks it's untrue and unjustified, or because deep down he knows it's true and the accusation undermines his self-justifications.

[innovan]

The cut aways in panels 3, 7 and 8 were a great save from what was otherwise going to be just a series of static panels with talk balloons in them. This could have all too easily been stuck in "static dialog land", but the illustrator avoided that. At the expense of visual continuity.

Remove the dialog balloons, and the images in 32 just seem random and unjoined in any story.

Think about what kind of plot points or even just simple actions could have been shown wordlessly while all this dialog was going on. 31 was a great example: Stanley used the Arkenhammer to control the dragons, revealing how the artifact works.

Could have 31 and 32 been combined into one single, more powerful strip? Yes. 31 had almost no dialog and lots of movement. 32 had lots of dialog and no movement.

Good work on the dialog, which is compelling. But the writer needs to add additional plot points that the illustrator can reveal wordlessly, through action, while the dialog is going on in front.

Also, there's been an extreme lack of props to interact with lately. Stanley and Hampster are just on an empty stage with empty hands, facing to addressing eachother, without a prop in sight. Compare this to the pigeons and nuts gag in 3-4.

I suggest keeping dialog punchlines at the end box of each page, but experimenting with visual gags and action resolutions that resolve over multi-page sequences to a different rhythm, especially when there's a multi-page sequence devoted to the same setting and characters like 31-32. The suspension of a visual sequence to another page while offering the punchline for a dialog cycle can be an interesting mix. Particularly when starting on an even page and resolving on an odd page --the traditional two page open book spread.

Some illustrators go really nuts for parallelisms in two page spreads --upper left corner even page has object, upper right corner odd page has same. Good guy punched center left even page, Villain punched center right odd page. Don't go that crazy, but be aware how it will publish.

[dobby86]

What i was confused about is Stanley saying "Because he is bringing it to me."
Can someone shed some light on that?

[Caledonian]

Stanley is convinced that the battle is actually a way for the Arkenpliers to be brought to him - that he will defeat Ansom and take the Tool from him.

[Daedrous Avari]

@dobby86
Stanley believes that Ansom will be defeated at the upcoming battle because the gods want him to have the artifact. So Stanley thinks Ansom will be defeated when he reaches there, and he will get his hands on the artifact.

That's gotta be one of the coolest speeches from an antagonist ever.

[dobby86]

Stanley is convinced that the battle is actually a way for the Arkenpliers to be brought to him - that he will defeat Ansom and take the Tool from him.

Oh, I get it, thank you, :smallbiggrin:

[Skydancer]

'You don't "know" anything.'

Ha, planescape torment reference :smallbiggrin:

[KillerCardinal]

My VERY first thought while reading this was "Well, yeah, holy and unholy exist." However, it can easily be argued that a priest of, say, Takhisis is holy. Granted, that is generally seen as unholy, but the def of holy mainly refers to religousness, and not whether or not the deity is "good".

Anywho, loved that comic!

[TheOtherMC]

Am I crazy tired or do the Arkentools look "real", or at least "real-er" than everything else. Like photorealistic compared to his toolship. That might support the ol' "the tools are objects from Parson's room" theories.

[Maratanos]

Am I crazy tired or do the Arkentools look "real", or at least "real-er" than everything else. Like photorealistic compared to his toolship. That might support the ol' "the tools are objects from Parson's room" theories.

No, you're right.

[Ave]

The tools were used to create Erfworld, they MUST be real :)
Stanley is definitely evil (typical egomaniacal self righteous evil), but this doesn't mean Ansom is any better. Or that the sides are different.
The only special about Stanley is that he reacts to the Arkentools.
Just imagine what would happen if Parsons puts his fat hand on one of them :P
Surely he is more attuned to a RL tool used to create a gameworld.

[kirbsys]

Psychopath much?

[Chibi Vampire]

@dobby86
That's gotta be one of the coolest speeches from an antagonist ever.

I haven't thought Stanley was evil from the beginning (although I could be wrong). Even if he is evil though, he wouldn't be an antagonist because the antagonist is the character that fights against the main character (the protagonist). At best, Stanley is a foil, a character placed in the story for comparison with the protagonist.


Am I crazy tired or do the Arkentools look "real", or at least "real-er" than everything else.

Perhaps it's simply an effect to emphasize their holiness.

[Yogi]

The "Zorndike Awards" are awards I give to people who attempt to justify their evil actions. This is named after Zorndike from "Blue Sub Six" who decided to wage a genocidal war against the human race using his own genetically engineered creatures, then justified it by saying "Look, the humans really want to kill me [this is after he wiped out over half the human population]. This proves they're barbarous and that I'm correct."

Let’s see of Stanley deserves it or not, shall we?

“When everyone is out to get you, you must be doing something right.” I see. So Time Cube guy is correct, since everyone thinks he’s utterly crazy? So if people agree with him, would that make him wrong then? If so, why is he trying to convince Parson?

“He’s bringing it to me.” Oh, so he PLANNED to lose all of his cities. It was all part of his brilliant plot! Of course, if Ansom was destined to lose them to Stanley in a battle, Stanley could have gone out to meet Anson and thereby NOT lose all his cities.


Stanley has never been too bright, and this doesn’t improve matters. He’s a whiney spoiled idiot throwing a temper tantrum whenever he’s called upon it.

[Glarx]

A whiny brat with a hammer that can make nuts into pigeons and call the ferocious fighting force of the flying reptiles we call Dwagons...

That's one spicy tantrum!

[Assassinfox]

And here I was thinking Stanley would explain that he's actually the good guy and that he's gathering the arkentools for something more altruistic than his own ego. :smallannoyed:

[Caractacus]

A whiny brat with a hammer that can make nuts into pigeons and call the ferocious fighting force of the flying reptiles we call Dwagons...

That's one spicy tantrum!

And a recipe for roasted pigeon pie! :smallsmile:

[Estelindis]

Very nice strip. Stanley certainly has confidence to burn - even if he's a poor military strategist, his self-belief seems to be quite a strength. I liked the fact that Parson stood up to him, and the shot of Ansom looking at the pliers in a bemused fashion was cool. Also, the distinction between good and holy was quite a clever one - essentially, the holy is characterised by its loftiness, its otherness, its removal from the ordinary and the mundane. Stanley certainly seems to regard himself in that fashion, and accordingly he accepts that idea (while rejecting the good/evil continuum because it doesn't fit in with his self-image).

[agentx42]

Very nice strip. Stanley certainly has confidence to burn - even if he's a poor military strategist, his self-belief seems to be quite a strength. I liked the fact that Parson stood up to him, and the shot of Ansom looking at the pliers in a bemused fashion was cool... [snip]

Stanley certainly seems to regard himself in that fashion, and accordingly he accepts that idea (while rejecting the good/evil continuum because it doesn't fit in with his self-image).

After re-reading the story as a whole, it occurs to me that in real time, Parson's only been in Erfworld, what, a few hours? I'm glad he stood up to Stanley as well, but after this display of power he'll certainly wonder just what in the Nine Circles he's really dealing with.

As for Stanley rejecting the whole good/evil thing: excellent point. A friend of mine who's a huge Dr Who fan pointed out a great quote from the show: "Your evil is my good." I doubt Stanley thinks of himself as 'evil' in any regard, and naturally took umbrage.

Where did the pliers and croquet mallet come from? Were those transported to Erfworld by accident while Wanda was trying to bring The Big Hamster over?

[DCR]

And how long will Parson last sans speech?

That's a question, now... He hasn't shut up once as long as there was someone else to talk to.

[TaxiMan]

Stanley ordered Parson not to speak any more. That ought to be good for a "gag" or two.

[I eat Jawas]

I quote - "war doesn't decide who's right. Only who's left."

[eilandesq]

Parson's certainly got a spine--let's hope that Stanley doesn't decide to rip it out and use it for a coatrack. :eek:

[Mr Teufel]

Wow! How does a little muppetman who accepts the title "Tool" get to make a shiver run down my spine? That last line is magnificent!

Stan's the Man!

[Querzis]

Wow, stanley is evil, totally insane, self-rigthous and he seems to believe he is some kind of god...I like him! Now thats a great villian (but its still not as good as Nale, go Linear Guild!)

[Scientivore]

I haven't thought Stanley was evil from the beginning (although I could be wrong). Even if he is evil though, he wouldn't be an antagonist because the antagonist is the character that fights against the main character (the protagonist). At best, Stanley is a foil, a character placed in the story for comparison with the protagonist.

That was my first instinct. However, it didn't quite feel right. There seemed to be some more ambiguity there and I'm cool with that. (Back in the day, I argued on my English AP exam that the narrator, protagonist and antagonist in Wuthering Heights were one and the same. I got a perfect V.) The way that I learned it, an antagonist is anything that the protagonist struggles against.

If you can describe the story as "person vs. X" then X is an antagonist whether it be a classically deliberate adversary, an obliviously frustrating person, the weather, one's own bad habits or abstracted death. When I pondered the ambiguity in Stanley's role, I realized that we're already on the third contest of wills between Stanley and Parson by my count. Given that Stanley is Parson's boss, I think that it's quite natural to classify him as an antagonist, an ally, a mentor and a foil, all at once.

[Vonriel]

Where did the pliers and croquet mallet come from? Were those transported to Erfworld by accident while Wanda was trying to bring The Big Hamster over?


No. We see both arkentools before Parson ever even makes an appearance in the comic, and before Wanda even makes mention of the spell to summon a perfect warlord, so they were already in existence long before Parson was *Plot!*ed into Erfworld.

Edit: And as for how Parson will work around not being able to speak, eventually Stanley will realize that his master strategist needs to be able to speak to direct his troops, and will order him to be allowed to speak again.

[Furin]

Great strip! But in reality, isn't holy and unholy the biggest propaganda of em all? Religion as a way of distinguishing one group of men to another so that they can kill each other mercilessly without remorse? Like putting a new rat into a cage with an established group and they bite it to death because it smells differently?

[Krytha]

yeeeeee... scary midget rant...

[EntilZha]

Thanks for the exposition, Lord Dramatic, lol!!

[innovan]

Well, I do hope Stanley avoids a "Poisonous Spidews, Fire Breathing Dwagons, and armies of undead zombies who crave brains aren't really evil ...they're just misunderstood" speech in the future.

And Marbits are hardly "good". Look at 'em. You can read it in their eyes: "Ugly bags of mostly water." every time they look at something non-mineral.

(And of course there's Vinny and his Bats working for Ansom in 22...)

If Stanley is doing this all just to get the Arkenpliers to come to him, why wasn't he at any of the first 10 battles where his cities fell before Ansom? Weren't the pliers there also? Wouldn't that have saved 250,000 smuckers?

I do hope Parson, some day in the future, explains the big gaping holes in Stanley's logic in an extended verbal smack down. That could be very satisfying.

Hopefully he does it in a way that Stanley learns from it (For a while, at least.) and it actually effect the plot.

[Glarx]

The war isn't because of the Arkenpliers, the fact that Ansom isn't attuned to them is. The war is because Ansom is (possibly) someone who disagrees with the way Stanley does what he does. Further, it could be something to do with the morally-corrupt usage of uncroaked troops, dwagons, and the like. I dunno.

Anyways, yes, the war isn't because of the Pliers. The lack of attunement is, the way I read it.

[Maurog]

I like how Ansom looks clueless with the Arkenpliers.

[Naltyrr]

Stanley ordered Parson not to speak any more. That ought to be good for a "gag" or two.

thats awful. :smallamused:

[Iry]

Perhaps the Arkentools, which are nothing more than children's toys, will only work their magick for the truly immature (ie, a child). Ansom is a mental adult, and most of his troops are the same. Even the majority of Stanleys troops are mature if only stupid. Stanly sincerely has the mind and actions of a child.

The titans are, effectively, adults building a playground. The Arkentools are far too small for an adult titan. Maybe they were just right for a child-sized titan.

[Aliquid]

Perhaps the Arkentools, which are nothing more than children's toys, will only work their magick for the truly immature (ie, a child). Ansom is a mental adult, and most of his troops are the same. Even the majority of Stanleys troops are mature if only stupid. Stanly sincerely has the mind and actions of a child.

The titans are, effectively, adults building a playground. The Arkentools are far too small for an adult titan. Maybe they were just right for a child-sized titan.
wait a second... Parson is about the proper scale to the Arkentools, so is he a "titan", in this "playground" of which you speak? Or in other words, is Parson a "Giant in the playground"? ;)

[BabbageCliolog]

I still wouldn't judge Stanley as evil yet because we don't know about Ansom's past. Maybe he was an enemy of Stanley and attacked first or forced him to attack by taking all the land around him. They could both be rivals and Stanley started the official war first. Or maybe he's just a big power hungy jerk but he'd rule people fairly despite that after he won.

This could be a Black Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Company)kind of situation. In the Books of the North, the Black Company are hired by the Lady to fight against the forces of the White Rose. But it turns out that both sides are equally "evil." The Lady is the wife of the Dominator, who's been trapped in the Barrowland. The Lady has some pretty heavy-hitting followers, the Ten-Who-Were-Taken (kinda like the Nazgul but with better variation among them). The White Rose is controlled by a number of wizards called The Circle of Eighteen who are equally nasty. There are no good guys at all and the "heroes" that are the Black Company are in between them, fighting for one and fighting against the other (well, for a short time at least). It's quite the series of books if you are interested.

I'm getting the impression that this may be a similar situation. Bad guy to the left of me, bad guy to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you.

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

I still wouldn't judge Stanley as evil yet because we don't know about Ansom's past. Maybe he was an enemy of Stanley and attacked first or forced him to attack by taking all the land around him. They could both be rivals and Stanley started the official war first. Or maybe he's just a big power hungy jerk but he'd rule people fairly despite that after he won.

This could be a Black Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Company) kind of situation. In the Books of the North, the Black Company are hired by the Lady to fight against the forces of the White Rose. But it turns out that both sides are equally "evil." The Lady is the wife of the Dominator, who's been trapped in the Barrowland. The Lady has some pretty heavy-hitting followers, the Ten-Who-Were-Taken (kinda like the Nazgul but with better variation among them). The White Rose is controlled by a number of wizards called The Circle of Eighteen who are equally nasty. There are no good guys at all and the "heroes" that are the Black Company are in between them, fighting for one and fighting against the other (well, for a short time at least). It's quite the series of books if you are interested.

I'm getting the impression that this may be a similar situation. Bad guy to the left of me, bad guy to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you.

/BC

[Shadow of the Sun]

Stanley, while not an antagonist, is much more the main villain than Ansom could ever be. Stanley is very powerful- even if that power is only due to his usage of the Arkenhammer- and he is egomaniacal enough to justify his actions merely because he did it.

He and Miko should hook up.

[Maurog]

I don't get how people can call Stanley evil. He's the chosen one, after all. You don't call a Messiah that happens to fight the existing order (however ordered and civilized it may seem) evil. Fanatical maybe, or zealous. He's just fulfilling his destiny to gather all the Arkentools and kick ass. Who wouldn't?

[Luvlein]

I don't get how people can call Stanley evil. He's the chosen one, after all.
Like, say, Darth Vader?

[happyturtle]

The art on this page was particularly satisfying. Parson's 'You are so full of boop' expression in panel 4, Stanley's rage in panel 5, and the Red Dwagon's glare in 6 and 9 are brilliant.


That was my first instinct. However, it didn't quite feel right. There seemed to be some more ambiguity there and I'm cool with that. (Back in the day, I argued on my English AP exam that the narrator, protagonist and antagonist in Wuthering Heights were one and the same. I got a perfect V.) The way that I learned it, an antagonist is anything that the protagonist struggles against.


I did Wuthering Heights in my English AP exam as well, and also got a 5. Unlike you, I have absolutely no memory of what I wrote about, as it was mumble, mumble years ago. (I'm an American expat, if anyone is wondering why someone in England was taking AP exams instead of A levels.)

[Marller]

Yup, Stanley is evil. :smallbiggrin:

[Mr Teufel]

Stanley... ...and Miko should hook up.

No. NO. NO!

Dont say stuff like that! Tillian will only draw something, then we'll all be sorry! :eek:



:smallwink:

[Mr Wizard]

I imagine reading this thread is like reading something Zarathustra might have wrote... :D

This and all the alignment threads in the OotS forum. :P

[Illiander]

Good and evil depends on an individuals perspective

yup, it depends on whether they're standing with to you, or pointing something lethal at you (or you want an excuse to point something lethal at them)

holy and unholy are the same, non-terrorists and terrorists, right and wrong, us and them, and any other way you might think of to split humanity into two groups

labeling people and putting them into groups (which you then steriotype) has never solved any problems in the long term, you just have to ignore the labels and treat everyone as who they are, not what someone's labeled them as

[SITB]

/\ The problem rises when groups of people try to treat other people "as they are". Since most people have differing versions of thought and morality confusion and chaos ensues. Which is why stereotypes evolved, to make it easier to convince fellow people to think the same why by generalizing.

Though I would argue that "Holy" is not subjective as such, since by definition it means it's important to a god. Therefore if a god decrees something is sacred it is sacred.


I imagine reading this thread is like reading something Zarathustra might have wrote... :D

This and all the alignment threads in the OotS forum. :P

Zarathustra tried to make other people see that saying: "That act is good/evil by the force of some abstract idea" is is by it's very structure flawed, since every person has different values. Thus, every individual has to understand the concept beyond morality as to not been ensnared by the crass argument I mentioned above warpped in pretty words.

[DiscountNinja]

Who's to say that Dwagons are an unethical choice of creature to feild in battle? The Arkenhammer gives Stanley control over the Dwagons, therefore isn't it what he commands them to do that makes then nasty or nice, rather than any sort of natural compunction to do one thing or the other?

The undead, I suppose, are a little more morally ambiguous - considering the issue of what happens to the persons conciousness and personality after they die.

Spidews - what makes them nasty? I mean, sure, they're giant, spit acid look like spiders, but what of those things is any worse than the creatures that Ansom feilded against them?

[innovan]

you just have to ignore the labels and treat everyone as who they are

The problem is, most people change this to "and treat everyone the same" ignoring all evidence of differences.

Are there murderers and thieves, little boy? Yes there are. You don't treat them the same as your friends, and you don't have the luxury of waiting until they murder or steal before you treat them differently.

[Illsbane]

-_- Stanley seems evil enough to me. Animating the dead? That's just evil. Plus, his rant is too self-justifying for my tastes and makes it clear that, even if his enemies don't, he does rule through fear and violence.

[Querzis]

-_- Stanley seems evil enough to me. Animating the dead? That's just evil. Plus, his rant is too self-justifying for my tastes and makes it clear that, even if his enemies don't, he does rule through fear and violence.

True that. For me 32 and 31 just proved that he is evil and I cant believe that some people agree with his rant. Holy and unholy is the biggest propaganda of them all! About half of the war were not started because of Good/evil but of Holy/unholy. Just look at the crusade: «We need to take Jerusalem back from those unholy musulmans and we are ready to kill thousand of people in the name of Jesus Christ». Stanley basically just said: «I need the arkenpliers from that unholy Ansom and I'm ready to kill thousand of people to get them because I'm holy». How can you think hes not evil?

[Harr]

Some excellent observations/advice from Innovan in this thread. The authors would do well to take it.

As for rest of it... meh... yeap indeedy, good and evil are relative, and it all depends on your point of view, and black and white and shades of grey and blablabla... it's all been said before. Doubtless the authors anticipated all these discussions with glee when writing these elements into the strip. Similarly with the sexual overtones of Wanda's interrogation strips... interesting, but in the end boils down to good old simple manipulation of the reader, just stuff meant from the beginning to pull out a reaction such as these above.

[slayerx]

Though I would argue that "Holy" is not subjective as such, since by definition it means it's important to a god. Therefore if a god decrees something is sacred it is sacred.

Not exactly,
While "Holy" does have such a definition, poeple tend to interpret what is important to god... The crusades, the inquisition, terrorist attacks, the cruel reign of various kings were all done "in the name of god"... the poeple in those cases all believed that what they were doing was the will of god and that their actions are holy. However, their are many poeple who disagree with that view saying that they were not actually doing the will of god and that their actions were not Holy. If the concept of "Holy" was not subjective, then this disagreement of views could not exist.

Stanley is in the same position, the Titians never once openly declared what the purpose of the arkentools was... all that is certain is that the tools were left by titians and nothing more. Stanley chooses to interpret tools as meant to help those chosen by the Titians, that only those favored by the Titians can wield them.

However, this is Stanley's uneducated view and thus it could be wrong. For instance, the tools may have a will of their own, a will that is unbiased for the Titians... they choose who THEY favor not who the Titians favor. One thing you can make notice of is the ArkenHammer on the cast page, whose discrition reads that it has a poor 'personal' taste in friends... if the tools really were acting on the will of the Titians, then it's taste in Stanley could NOT be a 'personal' taste.

Another possibility is that the Arkentools are tools shuned by the Titians... They could be tools that were flawed/cursed and thus unworthy of the Titians, and so they were left behind on Erfworld... Titians leave behind the flawed tools, but take the true divinve tools back with them

The thing is, when the actions of the gods is too vague, what is "Holy" becomes subject to one's interpretation of it.

[Himeo]

Are there murderers and thieves, little boy? Yes there are. You don't treat them the same as your friends, and you don't have the luxury of waiting until they murder or steal before you treat them differently.

That train of thought created the holocaust.

[Wolfman42666]

Stanley's unstable is what this episode establishes now we just need to know why

[Yogi]

That train of thought created the holocaust.No it didn't.

Now normally, this is where I would give evidence to counter your argument, but since you donn't even attempt to back up your claim, it's really not necessary.

[Rocheforte]

That train of thought created the holocaust.
That kind of comment invoke's Godwin's Law.

[Maratanos]

That kind of comment invoke's Godwin's Law.

Godwin's law is never meant to be invoked, however. :smallwink:

[Himeo]

That kind of comment invoke's Godwin's Law.

Only a Nazi could like Godwin's Law.

[The Hammer of Thor]

Wow, when I started reading this comic, I thought it would be rubbish.
How wrong I was.
Some great plot stuff and all building up.

[Maratanos]

Only a Nazi could like Godwin's Law.

Regardless of the truth or falsehood of this statement about Godwin's law, you are nevertheless committing a classic textbook example of Ad Hominem, Abusive. An argument attacking the person who made it.

Calling someone a Nazi is nothing more, and nothing less.

[Tolkien_Freak]

Specifically, it's Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Wierd comic. I'm amazed Stanley think's he's good. Is someone who enjoys ordering tortures good?

And the chances of the Arkenpliers being attuned to Stanley are exactly the same as those of being attuned to Ansom. Or anyone else. Unless there's a sort of I-already-have-an-Arkentool modifier for better chances.

[Imrix.]

I don't see why he can't be at least not-evil. Sure, he uses questionable forms of troops- to us. In that world, who's to say what kinds of creatures are inherently "evil" or inherently "good"? So beyond that, the only thing I can think of that he's done is sanction torture. Now, call me crazy, but in a situation of desperate war where you need every advantage you can get, the information gained via torture could be invaluable to victory in said war, which may gain as-yet unknown benefits for untold numbers of people.

His rant is, I agree, rather unhinged. However, consider that in this world he IS, literally, holy. He possesses an artifact which is apparently known to be a relic of the creaters of the world, which actively responds to him and him alone. That marks him as undeniably above normal people. Now, I certainly don't believe he's good but I don't believe he's evil either- like everybody, he has bits of both.

As yet, I just haven't seen enough backstory about the factions involved and the history of this saga to judge any side comprehensively.

[Xartyve]

Stanley is a little cranky

[Hoorex]

I don't know if this hasn't already been said, but I think Stanely believes he is serving a higher power. Kinda like the annoying Paladin, if I do it, it must be good/holy. That's why he thinks the pliers will be attuned to him. Because the Gods will it so.

[slayerx]

I don't see why he can't be at least not-evil
Lets see...
1) Condones torture not out of nessesity but for pleasure (wanda's pleasure)
2) Threaten's to wipe poeple from existance for minor things (comments he doesn't like)
3) Views himself as above everyone else (massive ego)
4) Comes off as quite the selfish little tyrant (doesn't matter if Gobwinknob falls as long as he's still has some of his power)

A not-evil yet not-good person (netrual) would not really do these things... a neutral person would only condone torture out of nessesity, not pleasure... they would be more tolerant of actions that displease them... and they while still caring for their own personal pleasure, be able to take knowlegde of others.


His rant is, I agree, rather unhinged. However, consider that in this world he IS, literally, holy. He possesses an artifact which is apparently known to be a relic of the creaters of the world, which actively responds to him and him alone. That marks him as undeniably above normal people.
Read my previous post on this page...
It's not that Stanely IS Holy, but that he BELIEVES he is Holy. His views are rather unproven ones, merely assumptions. the only thing that is known about the Arkentools is that they were left by the Titians, however their purpose, nature, and the reasons they were left behind are unknown. Stanley thinks that the tools respond to those the god's favor, but for all we actually know, the tools themselves may choose any master they wish, not ones the god's favor... hell it could even be the case that they are acutally cursed items, rejected by the titians... His beliefs in the Arkentools may be flase

furtharmore the things is, these types of things only show the reasons behind the way Stanley is (why he believes he's right, holy and such), NOT whether he is good or Evil... His actions and nature are what shows him as good or evil.


I don't know if this hasn't already been said, but I think Stanely believes he is serving a higher power.
Not quite from the way i see it...
It's not that Stanley believes he's serving a higher power, it's the case that Stanley believes that the higher power agrees with what he's doing; it's much like how countless rulers in history ruled by "Divine right"... they didn't go out to please the gods they only sought to please themselves and believed that the gods where on their side. Stanely does not see himself as a servent of the Titian's, but as someone who the Titians favor.

[Hoorex]

He says that he's a tool of the titans... that means that he is helping, serving even, a greater power. Hence why he was so pleased to be call "tool".

[Einar]

Stanley is a little cranky

I think you mean Lawful Cranky.

[Rocheforte]

Lets see...
1) Condones torture not out of nessesity but for pleasure (wanda's pleasure)
2) Threaten's to wipe poeple from existance for minor things (comments he doesn't like)
3) Views himself as above everyone else (massive ego)
4) Comes off as quite the selfish little tyrant (doesn't matter if Gobwinknob falls as long as he's still has some of his power)

1) Just about the only accusation made against him that is a valid point, even though I think too much is made of it for the amount of such behaviour that has been seen so far.

2) He has thus far not actually carried through with any such threat, and frankly doesn't seem inclined to do so. You might as well accuse Ralph Kramden of domestic abuse for constantly threatening to send Alice to the moon. Of course, in this decade, the courts would agree with you.

3 and 4) Had some trouble making a convincing argument? These traits are not evil. Also, they're pretty much the same thing. You mean he's both selfish AND thinks he's better than everyone else? You don't often see those traits together - he must be eeeeevil.

[slayerx]

2) Y'know another thing we haven't seen thus far? someone pushing Stanley after the threats. So far after the threats, poeple shut up about whatever they were saying that was pissing Stanley off... only reason we haven't seen Stanley carry out the threats is because no one has given him reason to.

3) You seem to underestimate how selfish Stanely is... When told that 500,000 Shmuckers was the only save his city, without giving it ANY thought, immediatly chose to abandon the city when they loose allowing it to be destoryed. And the only reason Stanley didn't take that course of action was because he found out he was gonna loose the money anyway... in otherwords, the money is much more important than the city itself. Seriously, someone non-evil would have atleast thought about it issue.

Stanley definatly seems like the type to make plenty of sacrifices for his own gain, that's pretty pushing the evil side imo... compared to Ansom who has so far been keeping his sacrifices at a bare minimum (Not-good, but not-evil)

And since it's true that points 3 and 4 were the same...
4) he has a whole alliance coming to get him... One nation coming after him, and we can question the intentions of that one nation... but when you got several nations all putting their differences aside to come kill you, then you MUST have done something to piss them all off... and considering how it seems that gobwinknob's downfail started with the quest for the tools, it seems clear that Stanely started the war... a war to get the tools


He says that he's a tool of the titans... that means that he is helping, serving even, a greater power. Hence why he was so pleased to be call "tool".
true, though i think this means it's a little bit of both...
He only serves so long as it's within what it's already what he wants to do, if the Titians were to start talling him things he did not want to hear, such as simple things like being a little less selfish, he'd more then likely start changing his tune.... a servent who is only around so long as it he can keep his pleasure isn't a true servent... a true servent would atleast be willing to make some sacrifices. This definatly seems true in the nature Stanley has shown thus far

[Rocheforte]

2) Speculation. The reason we haven't seen Stanley carry out his threats is purely that in the time we have been watching him, he has not carried out any of his threats. There is no justification for anybody who is not an author of this strip to claim knowledge of any intention which is not manifested by action.

3) I don't care if he makes pre-Dickens Scrooge look like Santa Claus. Selfishness by itself is not evil. Not in the fantasy Good vs. Evil sense that is being discussed here. It is simply not Good. His initial reaction to the price tag was that "it would literally empty the treasury". There are any number of non-evil reasons that's a dangerous thing for a person in his position to do. A purely speculative example: in the turn-based setting of Erfworld, it's possible that losing his hoard of shmuckers would cause his troops to disband due to lack of upkeep. After all, with no other cities, he must not have much income. As for his ability to escape the city in the worst case, I have two answers. First, if he believes it's his divine quest to gather the tools, than his survival and the security of the Arkenhammer are paramount. He'll defend his city as long as there is hope, and when there is not that hope, he will cut losses. Second, without such lofty aims, it's possible he's just a coward. Despicable in a head of state, yes. Evil, no.

And there is no person in this world or any other who will not make sacrifices for his own gain. Some are much more eager to do so, and require a less favourable exchange rate, but everybody has a price.

4) <tone="sarcasm">You're asolutely correct, of course. It's impossible to conceive of a case where multiple nations have all gone to war against a single nation without having the best interests of the world in general in mind.</tone> The war had already begun when Stanley started getting the Tools. Wanda said "Since you began questing for the other Arkentools, we have not won a battle." That makes it clear that there were battles before that point, at least some of which were won.

[Roderick_BR]

The better part is that, deep down, "Tool" agrees with him. Look how angry he is when he says "shut up". The typical denying reaction when the dry truth is rubbed on your face. :smallwink:

[Bilgore]

Perhaps the Arkentools, which are nothing more than children's toys, will only work their magick for the truly immature (ie, a child). Ansom is a mental adult, and most of his troops are the same. Even the majority of Stanleys troops are mature if only stupid. Stanly sincerely has the mind and actions of a child.

The titans are, effectively, adults building a playground. The Arkentools are far too small for an adult titan. Maybe they were just right for a child-sized titan.

Well, someone has already suggested the Arkenpliers are attuned to Wanda, because they affect the uncroaked.

However, your theory suggests something I find far more amusing.
The Arkenpliers (or some other arkentool) will be attuned to Bogroll. He's a lot like everyone's younger brother, if you think about it.

[benthehater]

Holy is nothing more than a damage type.

[Cancermage]

Everyone's being amazingly verbose about the topic of good vs. evil while completely forgetting the fact that it doesn't really matter to anyone but Stanley and Ansom whether or not Stanley's evil. Parson seemed to be just fine with the idea, Wanda likes what Wanda likes, the congniscant henchmen of Stanley's only care that they may very well lose their lives, and all of Ansom's troupe of creatures as yet haven't made one mention of morality, just that they have their job to do.
So when nobody really cares, what place does morality take? I mean, if any of Ansom's troops were really concerned about that, wouldn't they object to crushing anybody at 10-1 odds? Especially assuming that just because Stanley's evil, it doesn't mean his ranks have to be.

[Querzis]

Everyone's being amazingly verbose about the topic of good vs. evil while completely forgetting the fact that it doesn't really matter to anyone but Stanley and Ansom whether or not Stanley's evil. Parson seemed to be just fine with the idea, Wanda likes what Wanda likes, the congniscant henchmen of Stanley's only care that they may very well lose their lives, and all of Ansom's troupe of creatures as yet haven't made one mention of morality, just that they have their job to do.
So when nobody really cares, what place does morality take? I mean, if any of Ansom's troops were really concerned about that, wouldn't they object to crushing anybody at 10-1 odds? Especially assuming that just because Stanley's evil, it doesn't mean his ranks have to be.

So...good guys should stop a war when they are winning????? Stanley and his troop are still a threat, even if Ansom alliance is stronger right now. Stanley dont want to surrender (obviously) and his troop are still loyal to him. Letting them be because of 10-1 odds woudnt be good, just stupid.

[Innis Cabal]

i think stanely is right, honestly...good and evil are only hard and fast rules in D&D...not in the real world or in Erfworld. Neither is Holy or Unholy anything but words in the real world...though it seems in Erfworld this is not the case. Ya Stanley isnt the brightest, nicest person in the Erfworld but i don't think he is evil...just not "good"