5e E6...or E_?

[mephnick]

So now that people have had a chance to look it over, what are your thoughts on epic 6 for the fifth edition?

Is 6 still the level to cut off for 'gritty, heroic' campaigns?

Is it more balanced to allow a higher cut-off point?

Interested in your thoughts.

[Demonic Spoon]

Numbers don't shoot up like they did in 3.5 via bounded accuracy...Even ancient dragons only have ACs in the mid-20s. High level magic does most of the same stuff it did in 3.5, but it's far more limited so it's not thrown around as much.

Lastly, magic items are not assumed (there's no concept of wealth by level).


The vast majority of what E6 does is standard in 5e, with the exception of high level magic still being high level magic. If you don't want the party to even have the ability to do things that are provided by high level magic, I'd just ban full casters rather than limit levels.

[Edge of Dreams]

6 is actually still a solid cut-off point. It's the highest level where no one can access better than 3rd level spells, and it's also the highest level IIRC at which any class gains the Extra Attacks feature, which is pretty important. It also allows for plenty of different 3/3 and 4/2 multiclass combinations.

[Stan]

To hit rolls don't shoot up but hit points and spell levels still do.

6 is still ok. 8 would be ok too to have 2 ability boosts/feats. I'm thinking about 7.

[Person_Man]

I would say that 5E works fine as is for all 20 levels if you just remove about a 10-20ish spells; all the Conjure Animals/Elemental/Fey/etc, Animate Dead, Clone, Polymorph, an so on. No one I know really cares if a Wizard casts Meteor Storm once per day, or is willing to blow 1,500 gp each time they want to cast Forcecage, and Legendary abilities mean that the most powerful monsters aren't going to go down in the first round because of some random Save or Lose spell.

Also, because 5E plays in the theater of the mind, where combat is resolved fairly quickly, parties are a lot more likely to blow through a dozen or more combats before getting a Long Rest. So the daily limits on spells are a meaningful limitation.

But yeah, E6-8ish is still the cutoff for players who want gritty low fantasy roleplaying experiences.

[Stan]

I would say that 5E works fine as is for all 20 levels if you just remove about a 10-20ish spells;

If spells are someone's main concern, an alternative is that no more than half (round down) of your levels can be in full casting classes.

[Theodoxus]

If spells are someone's main concern, an alternative is that no more than half (round down) of your levels can be in full casting classes.

Or just don't have 6th+ level spells, but keep the slots. More casting (than 1/2 full caster), fewer OP spells.

[mephnick]

Also, because 5E plays in the theater of the mind

Is that the intent? I'm still seeing a lot of math references positioning, cover and movement.

[Envyus]

They don't mention Theater of the mind in the rules. But they mention grids as a rule you can use at your choice.

[Shadow]

Is that the intent? I'm still seeing a lot of math references positioning, cover and movement.

That is indeed the intent.
Look at Opportunity Attacks for an example.
In 3.x, AoOs were provoked whenever an enemy left a threatened square.
In 5e, OAs are provoked when, and only when an enemy leaves your reach. Because in a gridless/hexless Theater of the Mind style game, squares do not exist.

Combat in TotM is fast paced and grids slow it down, but the more tactically minded players/groups will almost certainly prefer to continue to use a grid.
Our group uses TotM for most stuff (with a quick map drawn for reference), and grid for boss fights.

[hymer]

blow 1,500 gp each time they want to cast Forcecage

That component isn't consumed on casting.

[Person_Man]

Is that the intent? I'm still seeing a lot of math references positioning, cover and movement.

Although its scattered throughout a bunch of different blog posts and tweets, Mearls has made it quite clear that the default for 5E is intentionally the theater of the mind, because he prefers that play style, it makes the game move much faster, the designers did a lot of the play testing in Google Hangouts and so the rules naturally evolved in that direction, 4E/Essentials were highly refined tactical tabletop combat games and 5E explicitly avoids rules from those editions that might offend 1E/2E/3.X/PF players that they're trying to regain as customers for 5E, having to buy miniatures is a barrier to new players, and including miniatures and maps in the boxed Starter set would have increased its cost.

The Dungeon Master's Guide will include a module for "4E style" tactical combat using a grid, and precise simulationist measurement and positioning rules are a tradition from previous editions (even though they're not needed in theater of the mind games), which is why you see some of them in the 5E PHB.