What is the best Gish

[TheMADMonk]

In 3.5 and PF what class is the best non-prc class that is the best Gish. The best and most versatile spellcasting as well as being able to deal some good damage with his martial side.

[heavyfuel]

The Duskblade and the Magus (3.5 and PF respectively). They are your gish-in-a-can, and besides the "Wizard 20" answer or "DMM Persisted Divine Power Clerizilla" (which aren't really gishes so much as T1 full-caster) they are the best options

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are using psionics the Psychic Warrior (in both PF and 3.5) is also a pretty powerful gish in a can.

[gorfnab]

Mystic Ranger (Drg# 336) with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV) can gish nicely for the first 10 levels.

[TheMADMonk]

Wizard don't deal martial damage though, they summon creatures to do that. Not quite the same.

[heavyfuel]

Wizard don't deal martial damage though, they summon creatures to do that. Not quite the same.

Sure they do. Shapechanging into a Dragon or Polymorphing into a Firbolg and beating everyone is still martial damage

I just mentioned both the Wizard and Clerizilla because they are sometimes suggested as "proper" answers to questions like yours. So I mentioned them in the same fashion someone might say "inb4", only I didn't use the term.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A wizard with polymorph... or worse Draconic polymorph is pretty deadly, heck there was a thread sometime back that pitted a single melee focused wizard against other martial characters and it did surprisingly well. I'll see if I can find that thread.

[ManicOppressive]

As far as level 20 builds go, I'd personally vote for Sublime Chord builds. They get full level 9 casting and, depending on your priorities, can have up to 17 BAB. They also get 3 levels of whatever you want without losing 9th level spells.

Something like

Bard 7/Randombull 3/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Whatever PRC you want 4

would be the standard. If you throw Eldritch Knight 1 into the Randombull 3 section you can use it for the four at the end and wind up with 9th level spells and 17 BAB.

EDIT: So I missed the "Non-PRC bit, I'm dumb.

As far as non-PRCs, I'd be inclined to just go with a Bard. Decent casting, 15 BAB, tons of fun options in Pathfinder.

[nedz]

In before eggyneck: Druid, at least for the levels 1-10 ish — Animal Companion, Wildshape and T1 casting

[dextercorvia]

Ardent can make a nice gish.

[Amphetryon]

Wilder makes an excellent 'Psi-Gish in a can,' so much so that Tlaxia Ghoula (however that name is spelled) made a very comprehensive thread about it on 339 back in the day.

[eggynack]

In before eggyneck: Druid, at least for the levels 1-10 ish — Animal Companion, Wildshape and T1 casting
It did seem an odd omission from the listing of wizard and clericzilla. Also, gots a vague desire to go by eggyneck now.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a no-PrCs Gish, you definitely want to go with a 3.5 Cleric or Druid. It's not even a contest, nothing else mentioned can hold a candle to either of these.

[dextercorvia]

It did seem an odd omission from the listing of wizard and clericzilla. Also, gots a vague desire to go by eggyneck now.

eggyneck seems like something that just happens shortly after eggyface.

[eggynack]

eggyneck seems like something that just happens shortly after eggyface.
My head had it as just a particularly odd consistency of neck material. It could also, theoretically, taste like eggs. Your way probably makes more sense though.

[Feint's End]

3.5 is kind of weak when it comes to out of the box gyshes. There is the duskblade which is decent and psywar is good of course.

Nothing compared to pf though. We have:

Magus
Inquisitor
Warpriest?
Hunter?
Alchemist
Summoner

Psychic warrior
Cryptic
Dread


Note that some of these classes don't look like a gish at first but are quite easily becoming one (Inquisitor and cryptic come to mind). Also different classes have different foci. Psywar is a buffmonster while Magus utilises offensive spells.

Edit: it's kind of hard to tell which one is the best since there are a lot of factors to consider.

Sheer dmg?
Psywar and summoner and potentially cryptic

Utility out of combat?
Inquisitor, Alchemist and cryptic are all very good

Spell-/powerlist?
Honestly they all have decent ones

[Snowbluff]

If you count 3rd party stuff for PF, you should probably be using the same for 3.5.

Like Lightning Warrior! It would be the best gish, except it doesn't have a familiar!

[Feint's End]

If you count 3rd party stuff for PF, you should probably be using the same for 3.5.

Like Lightning Warrior! It would be the best gish, except it doesn't have a familiar!

To be fair I don't count pf psionics as 3rd party simply because it existed in 3.5 and dsp did a damn good job converting it (also they are much better balanced than paizo though I do have to admit they get better too).

[kellbyb]

Factotums make pretty cool gishes.

[geekintheground]

If you count 3rd party stuff for PF, you should probably be using the same for 3.5.

Like Lightning Warrior! It would be the best gish, except it doesn't have a familiar!

no familiar? they must really suck then, why would you even bring it up?

[Thanatosia]

THis is my favorite gish build, but I want to disclaimer that this is a Gish that is essentially a melee with some magic support. If you are one of those who want lv9 spellcasting on their 'gish' then this build is not for you.

Paladin 2 + Monk 2 + Sorceror 2 + Abjurant Champion 4 + Swiftblade 10
Key feats: Ascetic Mage, Arcane Strike, Somatic Weaponry, Power attack.

Pump Charisma, since you'll be able to add it to your AC, initiative, all saves, and even attack roles when using your smite (opposing alignment) paladin ability.

Somatic weaponry lets ya cast spells with somatic components while still wielding a greatsword. Arcane strike makes your attacks devastating - drop one of your lv4 spell slots and you get +4 to hit and +4d4 damage on each attack till your next turn.

You'll be able to cast shield and haste as swift actions, your haste will be undispellable, you'll have 50% miss chance vs all attacks and targeted spells while your haste is active, and your shield will grant an extra 4 ac - can really hit silly AC totals with this build.

Because you're primarily a melee fighter and not a spell caster, focus your spells-known on long term buffs (Mage armor/greater mage armor, The elemental heart line is great), swift action spells (Stand, Wings of Cover, Improved Mirror Image, Ruin Delvers fortune are all great ones), and out of combat utilities. Outside of that, your spell slots are basically fuel for your arcnae strike feat.

[nedz]

It did seem an odd omission from the listing of wizard and clericzilla. Also, gots a vague desire to go by eggyneck now.

Oops, sorry :smallredface:

It seems the eggs on my face now. :smallbiggrin:

[Alent]

It seems like almost every half BAB class with a casting table in pathfinder is basically a gish.

Actually, build question on this subject. I've never played an ubercharger, so I don't know how they work besides pounce: Could you take Arcanist, take the archetype that gives you a Magus' Black Blade, take the feat that give you a Sylvanblooded Sorcerer's Bloodline skill (the Animal Companion), take Boon companion, get the robe that lets you boost the bloodline power's level, have an equal level druid animal companion with share spell, take the various beast form/elemental form/form of the dragon line along with the usual gishy buffs, then optimize into an ubercharger with 9ths that delivers spellstrikes?

[Feint's End]

Well the half bab classes in pf (with 2/3 casting) are done really well and they all can be gishes in their own right. I only don't really like the warpriest because it feels kind of redundant (inquisitor is already very strong and can fill the exact same niche + skillmonkeying).

Edit: ubercharger need pounce. Do you get that?

[*.*.*.*]

3.5 is kind of weak when it comes to out of the box gyshes. There is the duskblade which is decent and psywar is good of course.

Nothing compared to pf though. We have:


3.5 Has:
Wilder
Ardent
Psywar
Cleric
Druid
Duskblade
Mystic Ranger


And if PF gets to include DSP stuff, why not 3.5?
Morphean
Formbound Surger
Halo Knight


This is also not counting the Binder(which is very Gishy) and the MoI classes.

[Feint's End]

3.5 Has:
Wilder
Ardent
Psywar
Cleric
Druid
Duskblade
Mystic Ranger


And if PF gets to include DSP stuff, why not 3.5?
Morphean
Formbound Surger
Halo Knight


This is also not counting the Binder(which is very Gishy) and the MoI classes.

I don't count ardent, druid, cleric because I feel they are just fullcaster who can melee. Same reason I didn't count the psion or wizards. I count mainly classes which way of fighting is gishing or at least one of their best options is. For the classes above its not.

You are right about the wilder though. They are definitely much better suited to gish than to go full manifester. So wilder is in. Mystic ranger is kind of ... its weird. I'm not sure it qualifies as a gish since you essentially just get 4 spelllevels really fast and then stay there. I wouldn't say that makes them gishes but rather a 1/2 casting class with sped up progression. Not counting them in but they probably qualify.

I'm not aware of things dsp has done before pf but if you feel those mentioned are well balanced then nobody stops you from adding them.

I use dsp psionics because it belongs to pf like every other class for me and I know it does for a lot of other people . If you are not one of those then feel free to ignore my input for those classes.

[Gwendol]

Paladins make decent gishes, if selecting the "right" ACF's.

[Taveena]

Honestly, I enjoy gishes most when they /are/ full casters in addition to being wonderful melee. I mean a Wu Jen 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage +8 has devoted enough build resources to being melee that I don't think they can reasonably be brushed aside as another caster.

[sideswipe]

level 1 kobold paladin?

[Threadnaught]

I'm partial to Wizard20.


Edit:
Also, gots a vague desire to go by eggyneck now.

I don't think you have the.. Knack, for it. :smallsigh:

[eggynack]

I don't count ardent, druid, cleric because I feel they are just fullcaster who can melee. Same reason I didn't count the psion or wizards. I count mainly classes which way of fighting is gishing or at least one of their best options is. For the classes above its not.

I'm not really sure what this means. I don't think that a gish has a variety of combat that's all that set in stone, and for clerics and druids, hitting opponents in the face often is one of the better options available (though on a druid, said face hitting will often come at the hands of a summons or companion).

[Feint's End]

I'm not really sure what this means. I don't think that a gish has a variety of combat that's all that set in stone, and for clerics and druids, hitting opponents in the face often is one of the better options available (though on a druid, said face hitting will often come at the hands of a summons or companion).

You are right. I was probably somewhat too vague.

I meant that for me out of the can gishes are classes that are built for combining magical with melee (or even ranged combat). Probably you can make a point for saying wizards, etc fall into that category but then you might as well say that wizards are great tanks if somebody asks for it (because technically they are).

Maybe I was a little harsh. Cleric could indeed be counted as a gish in it's own way (maybe not es elegant as many others but definitely buff+smack). Druids I wouldn't count. I mean they are ... how .... They are druids. They don't go gish. They summon, have an animal companion + wildshape and then wreck the battlefield.

[Rebel7284]

Maybe I was a little harsh. Cleric could indeed be counted as a gish in it's own way (maybe not es elegant as many others but definitely buff+smack). Druids I wouldn't count. I mean they are ... how .... They are druids. They don't go gish. They summon, have an animal companion + wildshape and then wreck the battlefield.

So what I am reading from this is:
- You want Sword and Sorcery
- Morning Star and Sorcery is close enough
- Claw/Claw/Bite and Sorcery is right out

[Feint's End]

So what I am reading from this is:
- You want Sword and Sorcery
- Morning Star and Sorcery is close enough
- Claw/Claw/Bite and Sorcery is right out

No you misunderstand. I mentioned summoner and psywar after all.
I just meant druids are another league when it comes to "gishing".

Look ... For me it is just that full caster don't fall into the elegant gish niche. That's just my way of perceiving them. What clerics, druides etc. Do is that they buff up to animalistic levels and then smash things through raw strength. They could also solve the fight in a dozen other ways.

Elegant gishes are (and this is just personal feeling) those classes which are designed with gishing in mind and have a spelllist as well as class features which support that very idea. Look at the magus and spellcombat + the class features. Those make an elegant gish.
The psywar has a powerlist and class features built around the idea of buffing up and meleeing. That's the very concept.
Inquisitors have their judgements and again spells that can make them into gishes because that's they way they are designed to contribute to combat.
Summoners are essentially the ultimate gish because they have actions to buff and full attack in the same round.

I hope you see where I'm going with this. Maybe it's just personal preference but I don't feel like the 9th grade/ 16 bab gishes are elegant. They are just casters who invested somewhat into melee and decided to play a little fairer (though they could still whip out that miracle/wish/reality revision).

[Talionis]

Dread Necromancer really is a decent Gish.

[Dusk Eclipse]

How? 1/2 BAB, almost no buffs on their spell list... I guess the charnell touch and the DR does help a little but as gishes they suck.

[eggynack]

@Feint's End: I kinda take the opposite view, actually. If you're just going to beat face all the time, then by my reckoning, you'd be better off just playing something out of ToB, or some other standard melee build. Sure, the buff and beat style of combat is somewhat different from that, but not by all that much. Thus, I think that what defines a gish is that their primary mode of enemy engagement, their default mode, is that they beat face, but that they have crazy magic powers as backup in case that doesn't work. Alternatively, you could always do the whole aberration wild shape for thoon elder brain thing, letting you cast and full attack every round, personally. That seems like nigh on perfect gishery to me.

[emeraldstreak]

At level 1, with Pun Pun and a few other major exploits banned, I've had an undefeated Duskblade champion of many arenas, and not just against gishes but everything from barbarians to wizards. But that was pre DM material becoming so popular.


At level 20, I'd expect couple of levels of unarmed swordsage to get the damage dice rolling, and then focus either psionics or arcane.

[heavyfuel]

Your lv1 Duskblade has beaten a lv1 Wizard? The class that focuses on beating people with a magical stick won against the guy with Abrupt Jaunt 4 times per day, Nerveskitter and Fell Drain Sonic Snap? Call me skeptic.

[emeraldstreak]

Your lv1 Duskblade has beaten a lv1 Wizard? The class that focuses on beating people with a magical stick won against the guy with Abrupt Jaunt 4 times per day, Nerveskitter and Fell Drain Sonic Snap? Call me skeptic.

It had beaten everything from wizards to water orc chargers to stealth snipers. Mind you though, some of these victories were due to its race or even the bit of gold 1st lvl arenas offer. Also, none were "start at 10 ft with nothing inbetween".

[heavyfuel]

It had beaten everything from wizards to water orc chargers to stealth snipers. Mind you though, some of these victories were due to its race or even the bit of gold 1st lvl arenas offer. Also, none were "start at 10 ft with nothing inbetween".

Sure, you can win against a wizard that wastes his round throwing Magic Missiles at you, but there's just no way you can win against Wizards in general, especially if they have Abrupt Jaunt. I also highly doubt you can win against a Rogue if he has places to hide.

[emeraldstreak]

Sure, you can win against a wizard that wastes his round throwing Magic Missiles at you, but there's just no way you can win against Wizards in general, especially if they have Abrupt Jaunt. I also highly doubt you can win against a Rogue if he has places to hide.

It has killed many many hiding rogues. Also, it could defeat my own Magic Missile wizard who himself was able to one-shot any build I've seen (except my own max hp build). Any other questions?

[sleepyphoenixx]

I have yet to see a gish that can keep up on the melee side with a druid who takes the proper form. Like the Ironmaw with its 60ft reach, or some of the aberration forms with 10-12 attacks (that don't take the same penalties as iteratives). And that doesn't count their animal companion or the unmatched versatility of Dragon Wild Shape with its myriad abilities, immunities and special effect breath weapons.
Sure, their spell list is slightly inferior to the wizard one for utility purposes, but for raw combat it's at least as good, if not better. Some of those druid only spells are brutal.

And they don't really give up anything beyond 1-3 feats at most. Arcane gishes have to tailor their build to their combat style. All of them give up something.
A druid can do it just because he feels like it one day and do something different the next day. Investing a few more feats to specialize in it just makes them even more terrifying.

[heavyfuel]

It has killed many many hiding rogues. Also, it could defeat my own Magic Missile wizard who himself was able to one-shot any build I've seen (except my own max hp build). Any other questions?

Mind posting or PMing the build? I honestly don't see how you could possibly beat a Fell Drain Sonic Snap at lv1. Or a Spot Check against a Rogue's Hide, but maybe I'm wrong, and maybe your build really is all that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have yet to see a gish that can keep up on the melee side with a druid who takes the proper form. Like the Ironmaw with its 60ft reach, or some of the aberration forms with 10-12 attacks (that don't take the same penalties as iteratives). And that doesn't count their animal companion or the unmatched versatility of Dragon Wild Shape with its myriad abilities, immunities and special effect breath weapons.
Sure, their spell list is slightly inferior to the wizard one for utility purposes, but for raw combat it's at least as good, if not better. Some of those druid only spells are brutal.

And they don't really give up anything beyond 1-3 feats at most. Arcane gishes have to tailor their build to their combat style. All of them give up something.
A druid can do it just because he feels like it one day and do something different the next day. Investing a few more feats to specialize in it just makes them even more terrifying.

And that is one of the main problem with Tiers 1 and 2, having that kind of freedom/versatility can be detrimental to the enjoyment of other players; I know that I would be really upset if I brought my Duskblade 12 and have someone who brought a druid 12 completely decimate combats in Ironmaw form when he has so many other things going for him.

[heavyfuel]

I have yet to see a gish that can keep up on the melee side with a druid who takes the proper form. Like the Ironmaw with its 60ft reach, or some of the aberration forms with 10-12 attacks (that don't take the same penalties as iteratives). And that doesn't count their animal companion or the unmatched versatility of Dragon Wild Shape with its myriad abilities, immunities and special effect breath weapons.
Sure, their spell list is slightly inferior to the wizard one for utility purposes, but for raw combat it's at least as good, if not better. Some of those druid only spells are brutal.

And they don't really give up anything beyond 1-3 feats at most. Arcane gishes have to tailor their build to their combat style. All of them give up something.
A druid can do it just because he feels like it one day and do something different the next day. Investing a few more feats to specialize in it just makes them even more terrifying.

That may be just me, but when someone says "Gish" I imagine a humanoid with weapons (or Unarmed Strike) that uses spells to fight better. While what you said isn't untrue, it is a dumb argument because Druid is well known to be a Tier 1. This is the same thing as saying that while the Duskblade is powerful, it's not as a level 20 wizard. Well of course he isn't! Very few things in the game are stronger or as strong as a properly played Tier 1.

That's a dumb suggestion. If someone wants to play a Gish, or a Monk-like character, or a Tripper, your answer shouldn't be "play a Druid because they can do everything". If you do answer that, then my answer is that your Druid can't beat my lv1 Kobold Paladin.

[emeraldstreak]

Mind posting or PMing the build? I honestly don't see how you could possibly beat a Fell Drain Sonic Snap at lv1. Or a Spot Check against a Rogue's Hide, but maybe I'm wrong, and maybe your build really is all that.

I can tell you it had Silence. And enough Hide to hide from Rogues while detecting them. And insane AC. And decent melee/ranged damage and hp.

You may ask why Duskblade and not something else. Because the Duskblade offered the spells, proficiencies, and hit die I was looking for.

Basically in arenas there are three tiers of participants. "The chaff" that are just random regular characters that always lose to optimized builds. Far more dangerous are the "daggers", those are deadly builds that have as little as one trick, but that one trick is enough to defeat any regular character. Sonic Snap Fell Drain is exactly that.

Finally, you have the true champion builds. They are, well, most of all controllers, managers of risk. Such builds have to be able to counter wildly different "dagger" builds, because you'll be encountering many of them. That's why you look for a wide range of features and the Duskblade offers quite a lot.

Keep in mind that champions aren't undefeatable per se. It's not rocket science to make a character tailored to beat exactly that one champion. But that won't get you anywhere, as such a character will have problems advancing even through the chaff ranks and will never pass through the dagger ranks.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And that is one of the main problem with Tiers 1 and 2, having that kind of freedom/versatility can be detrimental to the enjoyment of other players; I know that I would be really upset if I brought my Duskblade 12 and have someone who brought a druid 12 completely decimate combats in Ironmaw form when he has so many other things going for him.
Bringing a high tier character to a low tier game (and playing him as such) is pretty bad form. The OP asked about the best gish, not the one that fits best into a certain power level.
And while a Duskblade can certainly be a lot of fun it isn't all that high on the power scale, even for gishes.


That may be just me, but when someone says "Gish" I imagine a humanoid with weapons (or Unarmed Strike) that uses spells to fight better. While what you said isn't untrue, it is a dumb argument because Druid is well known to be a Tier 1. This is the same thing as saying that while the Duskblade is powerful, it's not as a level 20 wizard. Well of course he isn't! Very few things in the game are stronger or as strong as a properly played Tier 1.

That's a dumb suggestion. If someone wants to play a Gish, or a Monk-like character, or a Tripper, your answer shouldn't be "play a Druid because they can do everything". If you do answer that, then my answer is that your Druid can't beat my lv1 Kobold Paladin.

A gish is someone that combines magic with melee combat. The term is pretty well defined.
Duskblade isn't the only arcane gish. Wizard/Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion is probably one of the most popular arcane gish builds around, and still a T1 character. The difference is that they need to build for gishing.
As for it being a dumb suggestion, refer to the above. What's appropiate for a gish depends on the power level of the campaign.
Bringing a Duskblade into a party that already has a Wizard, Druid and Cleric and a DM that likes to optimize his monsters is just as inappropiate as bringing a high tier character into a low tier party.



See also the OP. "The best non-prc class that is the best Gish. The best and most versatile spellcasting as well as being able to deal some good damage with his martial side."
That's not a Duskblade. You need T1 casting and the best melee ability you can get alongside that to fit all the requested features.

Wizard based gishing is out because you pretty much need a PrC for that to really be effective. It can still be done but not to the level of the other T1 casters.
Clerics make pretty good gishes natively, with minimal optimization. But while their spell list is more versatile than the druids (for non-combat aspects, at least) they fall far behind a Druid in melee ability.
Psions suffer from a much more limited spell/power list and the fact that most melee-useful powers aren't on their list. Psychic Warriors are out because their manifesting is too limited to qualify.

[emeraldstreak]

You need T1 casting and the best melee ability you can get alongside that to fit all the requested features.

Still, it'd be nice to go full 2d10 optimization as your best melee ability, unless the casting loss is too great.

[Yael]

Merry Gishmas! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286800-Merry-Gishmas!-19-BAB-9th-level-spells-and-full-attack-channeling)

[Warlocknthewind]

Warlocks.

Combining melee with magic? Eldrtitch glaive does it. Also, touch attach, so you hardly ever miss. It has DR, self buffs ('round the clock), self healing, flying, teleportation and cannot be disarmed of it's primary weapon.

Or, eldritch claws, improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike, snap kick and beast claws will suit a bit better, but with a much higher cost of optimization.

[Thanatosia]

THe problem with Warlock Gishes is that Eldritch GLaive comes from what seems to be in my experience a rather obscure and unpopular book (Dragon Magic), and Eldritch Claw comes from Dragon Magazine, which even if you have access to - a lot of tables don't recognize as official material at all.

But I agree, both make fine choices provided you can access the invocations in your game.