GiTP Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread VI:

[Techwarrior]

The old (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5965327) chat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142083) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167302) were (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207612) getting crazy big and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285092-GitP-PrC-Contest-Chat-Thread-V) one just kind of died, so we're starting a new one!

Current Contest: Um... What? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412914-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-LI-Um-What&p=19194575)

Past Contests:
Contest L: Size Matters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404923-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-L-Size-Matters&p=18990755#post18990755)
Contest XLVIX: It's Another Race Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393910-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLIX-It-s-Another-Race-Thing&p=18683412)
Contest XLVIII: Fight Fire With Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381196-GiTP-PrC-Contest-XLVIII-Fight-Fire-With-Fire)
Contest XLVII: Rebirth! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371584-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLVII-Rebirth)
Contest XLVI: Kick in the Door! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333077-Giant-in-the-Playground-PrC-Contest-XLVI-Kick-in-the-Door!)
Contest XLV: Hidden Knowledge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328054-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLV-Hidden-Knowledge&p=17027030)
Contest XLIV: It's Cold Outside (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319526)
Contest XLIII: It was destiny! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301729)
Contest XLII: Homebrew Heroes! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291321)
Contest XLI: Hybrid Theory IV! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284580)
Contest XL: Based on a Bestseller! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278589)
Contest XXXIX: Villainy and Evil! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273958)
Contest XXXVIII: Chaos is as Chaos... Oh look, shiny! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268025)
Contest XXXVII: Be Good for Goodness Sake! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263869)
Contest XXXVI: Traditionally Speaking! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260445)
Contest XXXV: The Last Harvest! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256751)
Contest XXXIV: Items of Power! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253310)
Contest XXXIII: Pet Me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249689)
Contest XXXII: Hybrid Theory III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229089)
Contest XXXI: Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey... Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221566)
Contest XXX: Into the Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212998)
Contest XXIX: Guts, Gears, and Glory! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208114)
Contest XXVIII: My Life in Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203247)
Contest XXVII: Epically Destined (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197033)
Contest XXVI: Eastern Exposure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190418)
Contest XXV: It's a Race Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185378)
Contest XXIV: Good Will Towards Men (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179661)
Contest XXIII: Hybrid Theory II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173986)
Contest XXII: Darkness on the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168897)
Contest XXI: It's Only Natural (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163610)
Contest XX: In the Shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157490)
Contest XIX: Power is a Gish best served Bold! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152106)
Contest XVIII: Power Corrupts! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147394)
Contest XVII: Mono e Mono (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142095)
Contest XVI: Live and Die by the Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136489)
Contest XV: Where The Wyld Things Are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131375)
Contest XIV: Hybrid Theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126592)
Contest XIII: Music and Lyrics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121195)
Contest XII: Can we Rebuild it? Yes we can! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116389)
Contest XI: Fallen, yet not Forgotten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111855)
Contest X: Draw, Partner! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108730)
Contest IX: It's Morphin' Time! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105490)
Contest VIII: Bow down to my Fist! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101782)
Contest VII: It's Elementary! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98294)
Contest VI: The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95505)
Contest V: Champion of the Common Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92606)
Contest IV: My Faith is Unswerving (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89760)
Contest III: We Band of Brothers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86443)
Contest II: Soul Power! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84454&highlight=Contest)
Contest I: Test My Sword, Meet Your End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81990&highlight=Contest)

-Techwarrior

[dragonjek]

My soul is soothed by this contest's resurrection. Any plans on when the next one will begin?

[boomwolf]

I do find it questionable that you revived the chat thread without a new contest, it has been months from the last one after all.

[Just to Browse]

I think that's because there was basically not voting on that contest, and Techwarrior wanted some more votes. Perhaps a link to the voting thread in the OP would be merited.

[Techwarrior]

I only got the chance to start the thread way too late, and didn't get to finish the chat thread (hunting down links that weren't on the previous chat thread) until way too late.

I am working on the next contest now, and will post it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371584-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLVII-Rebirth) shortly.

[sirpercival]

You need to change the template to include the new table format...

[Techwarrior]

Oh geez... I hadn't even thought of that.

It'll have to wait until I'm off work, but I'll get to it.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Don't worry Tech. I got the code for ya:







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Well, it's uh, completely empty. But, eh.

[Techwarrior]

This guy. Thank you quite a lot. Just made my day there.

[boomwolf]

I love the theme giving how it comes after a long downtime. plays in really nicely.


I might have an idea, but the current concept makes entry nigh-impossible, so I'd have to think of a nw one (being the target of animate dead while having enough XP for a level up in order to take the first level is incredibly situational unless pre-planned.)

[Network]

Thought I'd stand by to answer to that:
I might have an idea, but the current concept makes entry nigh-impossible, so I'd have to think of a nw one (being the target of animate dead while having enough XP for a level up in order to take the first level is incredibly situational unless pre-planned.)
What about a prestige class that starts at level 0? There is precedence of it.

[Techwarrior]

I know in one of the contests before I took over, I even entered one that started at 0. I'm pretty sure it was Pet Me! but I may be wrong, I can go pull it up if you'd like something to go off of.

[boomwolf]

Thought I'd stand by to answer to that:
What about a prestige class that starts at level 0? There is precedence of it.

That one would be too easy.
And will require the assumption that you are about to die and someone will animate-dead you.
Do not favor it.

Any the whole concept isnt coming togther anyway, so the problem is rendered moot, the concept is scrapped.
Maybe I'll come up with something else.

[ezkajii]

Alright, first submission is in! Please give me your thoughts and opinions if you care to, and any spelling errors/omissions/other mistakes I may have made. I look forward to seeing all of your submissions!

[Just to Browse]

Finally finished my entry. NPC stat blocks are such a pain...

[ezkajii]

Finally finished my entry. NPC stat blocks are such a pain...

Aaaaaaagreed.

[Glimbur]

PrC is up. I may have asked some people for ideas and gotten "paladin who kills people so they can be reincarnated better". So here it is.

I'll start PEACH'ing when I have time, and I would appreciate any PEACHes I can get. The signature ability is pretty wordy, so it can probably be made more clear.

[Milo v3]

Is it okay to use the Warder class from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War as part of my Sample Encounter?

[Techwarrior]

That should be perfectly ok.

Remember everyone, just one more week to get those submissions in and polished.

[dragonjek]

Astonishingly, I've managed to complete my class before the last two hours of a competition.
Opinions would be appreciated.

[Glimbur]

PEACH for Practitioner of the Way of the Butterfly

Interesting theme. I was thinking of a cocoon-rebirth kind of class as well.

Requirements look like a Pathfinder class, so you enter after level 6 but only need +5 BAB. That gives you a chance to spend a little time in a 3/4 class, which is probably good since monk is intended entry. Needs 2 knowledges, which is a little unusual for a monk normally. Ki Throw is at the end of a pretty deep feat chain though, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Ki Throw. Or get it as a bonus feat at Monk 10. So earliest entry looks something like Monk 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 1. You could do it with less Fighter and more Ranger if you want to spend more general feats on qualifying.

Those are all non-standard save progressions. You could give average saves, like the Swashbuckler does, but that's done by giving a bad save and then a bonus to it via class features. Not a huge deal, but it Isn't Done. 3/4 BAB is very Monk.

Gentle Assault is kind of strange; normally you don't ready an attack because that takes a standard action and you only get one. You could combine this with Vital Strike though, and you're adding enough to make that worthwhile. More powerful than I first thought, but also a bit limiting since you have to ready an attack which can lead to trickiness with triggering your readied action. Dex or Wis to CMB and CMD is something Monks should do anyway, so that's fine.

Soft Steps is fine. Maybe a little slow; you could give them twice ground move speed since it is a full round action.

Student of Life and Death is thematic but not super useful.

Rekindle Vitality is also thematic but not super helpful.

Chrysalis Revival should be the meat of the class. It's... interesting. You have some of the same problems Iron Heart Surge does: you can fix panicked with the Pupa stage except you're panicked and so you can't activate the chrysalis. That gets fixed some at the Butterfly stage with the automatic use, but that is only some debuffs. You have level/2 plus wisdom modifier in Ki points each day, so spending 2 or 3 is expensive but not crazy. This ability is thematic, but I'm wondering when you would use it. In combat, giving up actions is a heavy cost. Out of combat, there are 'cheaper' ways to heal (wands of CLW). I could see using this when you expect to die next round otherwise, but I dunno. Fixing ability damage and more difficult conditions with the Pupa and Butterfly stage makes it more useful for after-battle care, but it still hurts to lose actions in combat.

Kiss of Death is thematic and useful. Bonus d6 of damage rarely goes wrong. The 1/day/target limit is probably needed here. Good ability.

Cyclic Enlightenment is ok, but the bonus is pretty small. Players might forget to use it.

Alight Upon the Petal is fine.

Sacrificial Recompense is interesting. It ties in the death/life theme, and your poison butterfly metaphor is ok too.

Metamorphic Resurrection makes the chrysalis more useful. Does the penalty stack if he almost-dies more than once within 8 hours?

Acolyte of Life and Death is thematic and has some uses, but it seems like it's mostly for show. Fits the theme though, and you should keep it.

Butterflight is kind of inevitable with a butterfly class. The added things apart from flight are kind of forgettable but ok.

Metamorphose and Rebirth seems like it encourages mid-combat chrysalis using. The abilities seem reasonably balanced, though maybe Masque Spots does more than you think it did: Alter Self is pretty good. There's a typo in Puparium Raiment: "This armor weighs only five bounds and does not "

Sagacious Vision is useful. Seeing invisible is important and powerful. The other stuff is nice fluff.

Metamorphic Reincarnation is what this class should be about. Good.

Doyen of Life and Death is pretty powerful. Free 1/day True Res is strong. 1/day SoD is not too big a deal at this level, especially as a otuch. You need to set a save DC for this, probably 10+class level+ Wis Mod.

Fluff is alright, though you talk about melee combat and they don't get many abilities related to it.

All in all it sticks to the theme and is rebirth-y. I don't think I would play it since the chrysalis kind of bugs me, but it's a fine class.

[dragonjek]

Requirements look like a Pathfinder class, so you enter after level 6 but only need +5 BAB. That gives you a chance to spend a little time in a 3/4 class, which is probably good since monk is intended entry. Needs 2 knowledges, which is a little unusual for a monk normally. Ki Throw is at the end of a pretty deep feat chain though, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip -> Ki Throw. Or get it as a bonus feat at Monk 10. So earliest entry looks something like Monk 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 1. You could do it with less Fighter and more Ranger if you want to spend more general feats on qualifying.
Those are all non-standard save progressions. You could give average saves, like the Swashbuckler does, but that's done by giving a bad save and then a bonus to it via class features. Not a huge deal, but it Isn't Done. 3/4 BAB is very Monk.
They're standard for Pathfinder PrC's, though. Your good saves start lower, although they progress at the same rate. And although you would still need to take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip is available as a 6th level monk bonus feat.


Rekindle Vitality is also thematic but not super helpful.

Kiss of Death is thematic and useful. Bonus d6 of damage rarely goes wrong. The 1/day/target limit is probably needed here. Good ability.

Cyclic Enlightenment is ok, but the bonus is pretty small. Players might forget to use it.
What if I were to increase Cyclic Enlightenment to d8, and doubled its bonus when applied to Rekindle Vitality or Kiss of Death? And since granting the temporary hit points via Rekindle Vitality is at the cost of using the ability for the rest of the day, would it be better if I doubled the damaged healed (and accompanying temp. hp) for that one use?


Chrysalis Revival should be the meat of the class. It's... interesting. You have some of the same problems Iron Heart Surge does: you can fix panicked with the Pupa stage except you're panicked and so you can't activate the chrysalis. That gets fixed some at the Butterfly stage with the automatic use, but that is only some debuffs. You have level/2 plus wisdom modifier in Ki points each day, so spending 2 or 3 is expensive but not crazy. This ability is thematic, but I'm wondering when you would use it. In combat, giving up actions is a heavy cost. Out of combat, there are 'cheaper' ways to heal (wands of CLW). I could see using this when you expect to die next round otherwise, but I dunno. Fixing ability damage and more difficult conditions with the Pupa and Butterfly stage makes it more useful for after-battle care, but it still hurts to lose actions in combat.
And here I thought the problem with Iron Heart Surge was that you could stop gravity... clarified "conditions" as "status conditions".
I had intended to move panic up from Pupa... I had originally just listed every status effect the game had, then slapped myself when I realized how stupid that was and started switching those that prevented you from acting to the Butterfly stage (which I'll expand to include panic and stunning).
Giving up a turn (or three)is a pretty big loss... I had thought the use for the initial version to be equivalent to taking the time to cast a healing spell or use an item, but this doesn't permit AoO and the medium hit dice means that 1/2 hp isn't actually all that much. If you aren't already dead, a decent healing spell could get you to about the same point.
Would the ability to use Kiss of Death and Rekindle Vitality with ranged touch while in the chrysalis improve it? I was also considering adding a bonus to attack for 1 round when you emerge.


Metamorphic Resurrection makes the chrysalis more useful. Does the penalty stack if he almost-dies more than once within 8 hours?

Butterflight is kind of inevitable with a butterfly class. The added things apart from flight are kind of forgettable but ok.
Yeah, the penalty stacks.
I'm making Butterflight's scale-dust-penalty a swift action to use rather than a move--considering how important actions are, it is just too minor to spend a move action on. However, if you spend a ki point and use it as a standard action, you'll be able to inflict unarmed strike damage on everyone adjacent to you.


Metamorphose and Rebirth seems like it encourages mid-combat chrysalis using. The abilities seem reasonably balanced, though maybe Masque Spots does more than you think it did: Alter Self is pretty good. There's a typo in Puparium Raiment: "This armor weighs only five bounds and does not "

Doyen of Life and Death is pretty powerful. Free 1/day True Res is strong. 1/day SoD is not too big a deal at this level, especially as a otuch. You need to set a save DC for this, probably 10+class level+ Wis Mod.

Fluff is alright, though you talk about melee combat and they don't get many abilities related to it.
I missed that on Masque Spots... I forgot what all Alter Self could do. Spending a ki point to make it last longer now only gives it the normal duration of the spell.

I'll make the resurrection ability cause the Practitioner Con damage for 24 hours. I'm not sure whether it should be 2 or 4 points, though.

You're right about the melee combat bit. I'll give them the ability to make trip attacks instead of normal AoO (largely as an excuse to use Ki Throw on someone who charges them). And another, upper-level ability to add the Strength bonus of a target to their unarmed strike damage against that target. I'm also considering letting them make a trip attempt on an opponent who tries to grapple them, but that might be too much.

Pardon me if I don't post the changes immediately--I'd like to get feedback beforehand.

[dragonjek]

With the contest's end coming up, I felt it was better to just make my changes and hope for the best.

So... any ideas on a theme for the next contest?

"Just Here for the Flumph" - theme of one single monster--not a type, subtype, or even a category like true dragons. Just one monster.
"This is Why We Evolved Legs" - theme of the ocean, or maybe just its terrifying, terrifying depths.

[Just to Browse]

Did that voting thread ever get put up?

[Techwarrior]

No, but I'm working on it now. New tables and all that.

[Temotei]

No, but I'm working on it now. New tables and all that.

If you don't feel like learning the new tables, you could always just copy-paste a table from a voting thread in the Base Class Contest and just change all the class names/authors to the right stuff.

[Techwarrior]

I'm already about halfway done with it, it's the chasing down post numbers that takes so long. (As you of all people should know :smallamused: )

[Temotei]

I'm already about halfway done with it, it's the chasing down post numbers that takes so long. (As you of all people should know :smallamused: )

Really? I just right click on the number at the top right of each post and open a new tab, copy-paste, type up name of class and author, done. Are you manually quoting and copying each post number? :smalleek:

[Techwarrior]

Um... no... and that's definitely not why I gave up last night before finishing the task... :smallfrown:

Thank you sooooooooo much!!!

[Temotei]

Um... no... and that's definitely not why I gave up last night before finishing the task... :smallfrown:

I am so sorry you had to go through that. That would be a nightmare to remember (but one you'd probably like to forget). I'm simultaneously amused and very sad for you. :smallamused::smallfrown:

Glad to hear I could help, though.

[Techwarrior]

I'll have to contemplate the tiebreaker for a bit longer, but meanwhile I'll post a new contest! Yay! or something. Tiebreakers are hard.

[Glimbur]

I have an idea for this contest. As you might expect, it's a little strange. Details to follow... eventually.

[Vaynor]

You should edit the links in your sig and the first post of this thread to clear up any confusion.

I also have an idea but I'm not sure if I'll be able to pull it off well. I'll give it some more thought.

[Techwarrior]

Yup, just hadn't gotten around to it yet. Been quite busy with Real LifeTM

[Felyndiira]

Random question: does the "no previously submitted entries" rule count towards previous entries that were mostly incomplete (and thus disqualified)? Namely, the witch hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13953099&postcount=5)? I wanted to finish that class and enter it for the current competition, though I wanted to check if that's breaking the rules.

[Jormengand]

Whew. Finally finished, barring edits.

[Zaydos]

I've got to brainstorm 1 more class feature and then fluff the class.

[Babale]

My new class is well on its way to being done -- the Defiler, a druid-focused prestige class that allows druids fighting against the unnatural forces of the world to turn those forces back against themselves. Still need to come up with a few more options for Way of the Vile and a few more class features, plus I still need to fluff... But the concept's there!

[Prehysterical]

Is anyone else having problems editing their entries? It shows in the edit box that the info is there, but the new text does not update to the page.

[Glimbur]

Class posted. I'd like to trade PEACHes, and if no-one has a better idea I'll start with the first class posted and go from there.

[Babale]

I'll trade PEACH next time I'm on if ya want

[Glimbur]

PEACH for Defiler.

It certainly fits the theme, at least in the intro fluff.

Entry after level 7 is non-standard but ok. Unless this is a Pathfinder PrC, in which case you enter after level 10, which is more standard but also fine. I'll assume level 7 entry.

Class skills make sense: a lot like druid, but with Know (Arcane). You might want to add Know (Dungeoneering) since that handles aberrations.

Corrupted Wildshape is probably ok; you don't get the Su abilities of your new form so, for example, no taking double turns by turning into a Choker.

Favored enemy is fitting and gives some variety in characters with this class, which is nice.

Way of the Vile is a cool idea, but I worry that most of the choices aren't powerful enough.
Choker is ok as-is. Decent grappling buff, occasional extra actions but not as crazy as extra standard actions.
Chuul passive is ok, but the active has kind of a terrible save DC. Maybe 10+class level+Con mod, or 10+half character level+Con mod? 6 round paralysis is pretty brutal, maybe make that 1d6 at the same time you make it harder to resist. Or 2d3 rounds.
Gibbering Mouther spit is pretty awful: 1d4 acid is very little damage at these levels, the save DC to avoid blinding isn't very dangerous, and it's hard to crit on this attack. Maybe make it limited times per day, class level d6 acid damage, and fort save 10+level+con or be blinded. Gibbering is ok, but the DC should scale with class level also. It's pretty powerful but will also hit allies.
Undead wildshape is pretty good; vampires especially have a lot of powers but also many vulnerabilities. I'd expect a lot of ghost wildshaping, but that is ok.
Slaad passive is just plain nice. The active is ok, but how much fast healing? 5 hit points per round might be about right, or have it scale with class level.

Devil passive is alright, 5 DR is not a bad amount. The active is not very good, unless you mean a number of HD equal to character level and not class level. 10 HD of devils at level 17 is not very helpful. A pit fiend at level 18 might be a bit much though; outsiders have a pretty high CR for their HD due to lots of SLA's and such. I'd have to think some more on how to balance this ability. Maybe you have to summon at least two devils and split the HD between them. That pushes the Pit Fiend back a level or two, which might be enough.

Demons: about the same as Devil. Any reason the demons stay twice as long as the devils?

Ooze is amusing, and probably ok on balance. Living Spells are a thing but technically they're templates so you can't wildshape into them. I think.

Corrupted Empathy is flavorful and fine.

Enhanced Summoning: make sure to specify the Pseudonatural template from Complete Arcane, not from the Epic Level Handbook. Per errata rules the more recent one wipes out the other, but the ELH is still on the SRD so it might confuse folks.

Corrupt the Wild is amusing. I'm seeing an entire ecosystem of skeletal wolves chasing skeletal deer. I like it.

Augment monsters is fine.

So, we have a druid that turns into aberrations, gains some abilities from the invaders, gets bonuses to kill the invaders, gets 8/10 casting progression, and can try to rebuild shattered ecosystems. Sort of. You might need a little more to actually let them restore animals and plant life to wasted areas, but the class seems reasonably balanced. I like it :smallsmile:

[Babale]

Dang, that's some good feedback! I'll go through the feedback you gave me and ask you any questions I have, then I'll give you feedback on yours! :)
Class skills make sense: a lot like druid, but with Know (Arcane). You might want to add Know (Dungeoneering) since that handles aberrations. Doh, I was thinking Arcane covered aberrations and oozes and didn't look it up. I'll just add that right now... :P


Way of the Vile is a cool idea, but I worry that most of the choices aren't powerful enough.
Choker is ok as-is. Decent grappling buff, occasional extra actions but not as crazy as extra standard actions.
Chuul passive is ok, but the active has kind of a terrible save DC. Maybe 10+class level+Con mod, or 10+half character level+Con mod? 6 round paralysis is pretty brutal, maybe make that 1d6 at the same time you make it harder to resist. Or 2d3 rounds. The actual Chuul ability paralyzes for 6 rounds but you're right, as a PC ability 1d6 is better. I'd rather scale it with the class than with character level to reward druids who take the full PRC; my worry is that you can get a DC 20+Con paralyze for 1d6 rounds at will at 17. But... I guess that's not that bad, all in all.


Gibbering Mouther spit is pretty awful: 1d4 acid is very little damage at these levels, the save DC to avoid blinding isn't very dangerous, and it's hard to crit on this attack. Maybe make it limited times per day, class level d6 acid damage, and fort save 10+level+con or be blinded. Gibbering is ok, but the DC should scale with class level also. It's pretty powerful but will also hit allies. I wanted to give the druid an ability that wasn't limited by uses per day but you're right, doing that makes it pretty dang crappy. OK, I'll take your suggestion; 3/day, 1d6/class level acid damage, fort save is 10+ level+con. It's still a free action though, which is nice. Gibbering is still super awesome, but it does use Charisma so it shouldn't be too bad to make it scale with level too.



Undead wildshape is pretty good; vampires especially have a lot of powers but also many vulnerabilities. I'd expect a lot of ghost wildshaping, but that is ok. Yeah, that was the idea; but that's why it only lasts for an hour and takes up a whole use of corrupted wildshape.


Slaad passive is just plain nice. The active is ok, but how much fast healing? 5 hit points per round might be about right, or have it scale with class level. Yeah, 5; just forgot to put that down.


Devil passive is alright, 5 DR is not a bad amount. The active is not very good, unless you mean a number of HD equal to character level and not class level. 10 HD of devils at level 17 is not very helpful. A pit fiend at level 18 might be a bit much though; outsiders have a pretty high CR for their HD due to lots of SLA's and such. I'd have to think some more on how to balance this ability. Maybe you have to summon at least two devils and split the HD between them. That pushes the Pit Fiend back a level or two, which might be enough.

Demons: about the same as Devil. Any reason the demons stay twice as long as the devils? Yeah, I meant HD equal to character level; I thought if I didn't specify defiler level it would be assumed to be character level, but I made that more clear. I also capped the HD used for any one summon at half the total HD summoned, so no pit fiends!

As for why demons last longer, the two entries are not exactly the same; the devils will attack anything in sight unless specifically instructed otherwise while the demons will attack anything and everything except the defiler.


Enhanced Summoning: make sure to specify the Pseudonatural template from Complete Arcane, not from the Epic Level Handbook. Per errata rules the more recent one wipes out the other, but the ELH is still on the SRD so it might confuse folks. Good idea



So, we have a druid that turns into aberrations, gains some abilities from the invaders, gets bonuses to kill the invaders, gets 8/10 casting progression, and can try to rebuild shattered ecosystems. Sort of. You might need a little more to actually let them restore animals and plant life to wasted areas, but the class seems reasonably balanced. I like it :smallsmile:

Thanks for your feedback man! I really appreciate it. One question; when you say the class might need more abilities to rebuild, do you mean aside from the abilities other druids get? I figured the rebuilding of ACTUAL nature (as opposed to demented nature) can be handled by the druid spell list.




OK! Now for reviewing your class!


I like that it's an artificer and spellthief, both classes that can use more PrC support. It certainly fits the contest theme!

So, First Principles just advances the major class features of both classes; good enough. Artificers are powerful enough either way, but have you considered advancing their XP crafting pool? Taking that XP away from them doesn't make them much less powerful, but does make them less likely to craft items for their allies. Aside from that, I like it; I think the class is absolutely strong enough to make an artificer seriously consider giving up the last 5 levels of infusion progress.

Now, Magical Misfire; the cornerstone of this class. Allow me to address each one in turn:

Wondrous Mirror -- I love it, but maybe you should cap the spell level it can duplicate? The way it works right now I can take a 1 level dip in this class and double any Rings of Three Wishes. All you have to do is give an ally the ring, punch them so that you roll initiative and they count as an opponent, and then have them cast Wish which you duplicate. The fact that it is a wondrous item only does help limit some abuse; you can't double wand charges, for example. But while I have no problem with piggybacking on the wizard's three per day blur item, getting free Wishes seems a bit... abusable.

Enhancement Enhancement -- also love it. I'm a bit iffy about the fact that this scales by character level; it seems to encourage people to take just a level or two of the class. Maybe say something like, "at character level 14 if you have at least 3 levels in the dwemer defiler class" or something? Making the bonus untyped is dangerous again -- I could see a scenario where the party gathers up, say, 20 +6 items; the dwemer defiler can steal their essence, convert them to one stat, and half the bonus to get them all to stack, gaining +60 to a stat. Maybe only allow him to steal one enhancement, or at least just one enhancement per stat?

Flight of Fancy -- love it! No complaints :) Maybe just say what happens if you make your flying opponent shoot off 100 feet to the left and there's a column 10 feet away :P

I love displaced accuracy. I do have a question though -- if the item activates displacement for, say, 5 rounds, and you use Displaced Accuracy on round 3, does the hit chance continue until the end of the fight, or does it end with the item's effect?

Rod Reversal -- Hilarious! Very biblical too :P I love it, especially since casters have poor fort saves. Maybe explicitly state that the viper is hostile towards the caster and give it a free grapple attempt (not that a tiny viper can hold down the caster, but so that he can't just be thrown away right away?) Other than that, my favorite ability so far.

Neck-less Necklace -- I love it! The mental image is simply hilarious.

Armor Acquisition -- also a very nice ability, but seems a bit... lackluster. Maybe make it so that at higher levels you can steal more of the armor's abilities? Or better yet, make it so that you can choose to steal 1d6 extra armor bonus, which allows you up to +11 to armor if you steal a +5 suit of armor but gives the enemy up to a -6 penalty?

Warp Weapons -- also nice, but the same idea as Armor Acquisition -- seems lackluster at later levels. Maybe let the dwemer defiler steal weapon abilities too? Or convert stolen numeric bonuses into abilities like flaming, etc?


Overall there are a bunch of nice abilities here. A couple extra ideas -- teleportation items? Maybe a way to stop the BBEG from teleporting away or to mess with that annoying PC with an anklet of translocation (and yes, I wanna use the dwemer defiler as a bad guy in my games :P). Finally -- maybe a way of healing using stolen magical force?


Enchanter's Eye -- seems pretty powerful, but so what? It's a prestige class; effectively gaining a 1st level spell at will is totally awesome. Only idea is to make "being used" more specific -- is just wearing a suit of armor enough, or perhaps someone has to actually strike it before you realize how powerful it is?

Drain Staff -- there's that healing ability I was asking for :P maybe instead of just healing 5 per charge make it 1d6 per charge? Not sure if that would actually improve things.

Continuing Education -- also a good ability. A nice reason to actually reach the capstone.

Overall, I love the class. It fits the theme great and is very creating, utilizing under...well, underutilized mechanics. Love it!

[Glimbur]

I put a cap the spell level you can duplicate with Wondrous Mirror, though it's a pretty generous one. I also limited Enhancement Enchantment to only boost the same stat once.

Armor and weapon copying are only swift actions, which is why they are a bit lack-luster compared to the other options. Also, magic full plate is a pretty big armor bonus to be able to steal, which is why it targets a strong save of someone who is likely to be wearing heavy armor.

I actually had the Anklet of Translocation in mind for Wondrous Mirror. I guess I don't have a good feel for how common teleport items are; Drain Staff is a class feature and not a Misfire because I worried that staves were too rare to make the misfire worth taking. A Misfire to delay the teleport for Int or Cha mod rounds might be ok... not sure.

[Temotei]

Hey, Tech, could we extend the contest another day or two? I'm nearly finished, but I don't think I can finish tonight, unfortunately.

[Techwarrior]

Sure thing. I'll update the contest thread and set a new date. It'll be a bit late, due to my current online difficulties.

[Zaydos]

I added some new Aberration Blood options and Aberrant Feats just because a PrC about them needs there to be a few more options. Also made it so the penalty to skills from Aberrant Feats is halved for Blooded Hunters and they can't suffer more than -3 to Diplomacy and Gather Information that way.

[Zaydos]

I have some ideas for new aberrant feats but they aren't particularly important for the class (one is for bards, one is for casters, and one is a divine feat; the class is full BAB non-casting) and the contest is supposed to be closed but isn't yet, so what I guess I'm saying is, has it been extended again, should I just post them, or should it be closed already?

[Techwarrior]

Alright everyone, Fight Fire With Fire is now closed. Voting can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386226-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Voting-Thread-XLVIII-Fight-Fire-With-Fire!&p=18471386#post18471386)

If I could get some opinions on the themes for the next contest, I'll make sure to get it posted near the end of the week.

[JoshuaZ]

Alright everyone, Fight Fire With Fire is now closed. Voting can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386226-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Voting-Thread-XLVIII-Fight-Fire-With-Fire!&p=18471386#post18471386)

If I could get some opinions on the themes for the next contest, I'll make sure to get it posted near the end of the week.

Is this going to happen soon?

Also possible themes:

PrCs inspired by specific songs.

Another Hybrid contest (always fun).

PrCs that focus on using a specific school of magic in a way that isn't expected for that school.

Elemental focused Prcs.

Redone PrCs- the idea here is to take a PrC that is in some official splatbook but isn't well done and redo it from the ground up so the crunch and fluff meet.

PrCs that focus on a specific spell.

Psionic PrCs.

PrCs that interact specifically with a Pathfinder base class.

[Temotei]

PrCs that focus on using a specific school of magic in a way that isn't expected for that school.

I'll vote for this, if we're doing it that way.

Or a particular subset of spells, like Healing/Teleportation/etc. That would be pretty cool.

[Techwarrior]

It's Alive!!!!

That is to say, I'm back from my unexpected and very lengthy hiatus. I will attempt to get the contest rolling as soon as is possible.

Keep the ideas rolling, and thank you for what little life there has been here. Let's try and get this thread back up and rolling along at a steady clip.

[asnys]

So, this might be kind of tough, but I'll throw it out there: non-combat prestige classes. Prestige classes for cat-burglars, merchant princes, diplomancers - anything focused exclusively on doing stuff other then killing things.

[asnys]

Another idea: PrC's for mundanes. No magic, no psionics, no spell-like abilities, just sword, skills, and/or grit.

[dragonjek]

PrC's based on using just one or two spells in amazing and creative ways.
A theme of the Tarrasque.
Oozes.
Robot theme.
Prestige class based upon a philosophical school of thought.
Art.
Take a concept that is normally spellcaster exclusive and make a PrC that can use that ability without spells.
Choose a broad theme, but then forbid the most obvious ideas the participants would head towards (priest-type classes for a religion theme, spellcasters for a language theme, having a good base attack bonus progression for a swords theme, psionics for a mental/mind/insanity theme, barbarian-based PrC's for a theme of tribal conflict, etc.)
Classes that use made-up words that were created in fantasy/sci-fi stories ("libram", for instance, comes from either fantasy novels of the mid-20th century or gaming, while "mithril" was invented by Tolkien. And then there's... just about everything involving the Jabberwock).
Tarot theme.
A theme of sacrifice.
A class based upon clever wordplay (or puns, the opposite of clever anything).

Incidentally--Techwarrior, did you ever get around to breaking the tie for the Rebirth! contest?

[Zaydos]

PrCs that are (primarily) entered using base class(es) someone else designed.

Detectives.

Music PrC which is not made to be entered via Bard.

Divine Ascension.

Racial PrCs (or maybe Dwarf or Gnome PrCs).

[Techwarrior]

As whoever was capable of counting already knew, the winner for the last contest (Fight Fire With Fire) was Zaydos' Blooded Hunter with a resounding 3 first place votes.

In regards to the tiebreaker from the Rebirth! contest, after much deliberation and review, I have decided that Glimbur's Karmic Accelerator takes the cake. From a mechanical standpoint, this class felt the most capable of performing it's party 'role' as well as it's narrative one. I also felt like the fluff was a very original take on the contest's theme.

Edit: Contest XLIX: It's Another Race Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393910-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLIX-It-s-Another-Race-Thing&p=18683412) has been posted.

[JoshuaZ]

Edit: Contest XLIX: It's Another Race Thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393910-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLIX-It-s-Another-Race-Thing&p=18683412) has been posted.

Ooh. I don't believe there are any Reth Dekala specific PrCs. My entry will fix that unfortunate oversight.

[Amechra]

I've got the first draft of the Ametsezko (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393910-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLIX-It-s-Another-Race-Thing&p=18687967#post18687967), a meldshaping/invocation hybrid based off the Ilazki, a homebrew race I wrote up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388748-quot-Made-From-Dreamstuff-and-Moonbeams-quot-Race-Incarnum-PEACH&p=18547154#post18547154).

If someone wouldn't mind giving me a PEACH, I'd be gratetful.

[Zaydos]

As whoever was capable of counting already knew, the winner for the last contest (Fight Fire With Fire) was Zaydos' Blooded Hunter with a resounding 3 first place votes.

Umm... I thought Defiler won. 2 First x3 and 3 Second x2 = 12, where mine just got 3 First x 3 and 1 Third x 1 = 10.

[Zaydos]

I've got the first draft of the Ametsezko (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393910-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-XLIX-It-s-Another-Race-Thing&p=18687967#post18687967), a meldshaping/invocation hybrid based off the Ilazki, a homebrew race I wrote up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388748-quot-Made-From-Dreamstuff-and-Moonbeams-quot-Race-Incarnum-PEACH&p=18547154#post18547154).

If someone wouldn't mind giving me a PEACH, I'd be gratetful.

Since you asked for a PEACH

I'm going to do this the relatively simple way. I am going to do a brief comparison to what they get compared to a straight Incarnate, a straight Warlock, and a gestalt warlock|incarnate (20 class levels for first 2, because I missed racial LA till I was done, and 15 for the third).

Incarnate 8/Warlock 2/Ametsezko 10 v Incarnate 20
Pros: +20 skill points, +4 to Will saves, +2 BAB, up to +4 necrocarnum soulmelds (in form of Pact of the Moonchild), +4 necrocarnum chakra binds (in form of Pact of the Moonchild), +5d6 damage with necrocarnum soulmelds/chakra binds (in the form of moonblast), ability to use necrocarnum soulmelds/chakra binds for damage when gaseous (in form of moon claws), constant +1 to essentia capacity, save DC, and meldshaper level with necrocarnum; 12 levels of invocation (with 11d6 eldritch blast), continuous 20% concealment
Cons: -3 Fort, -1 Reflex, 1 less non-necrocarnum soulmeld, +4 essentia, loses 4/day 1 encounter +2 to essentia capacity and save DC of necrocarnum, -1 essentia capacity, loses 2/day rapid meldshaping (retains 1/day), loses Soul Chakra, loses Perfect Meldshaper/True Incarnation.

Overall: Ignoring their Eldritch Blast/Invocations they are arguably a better meldshaper than Incarnate due to Pact of the Moonchild, although I would say that they probably come out slightly behind, that is however ignoring their eldritch blast and 7 invocations which put them substantially ahead and then continuous concealment (which as concealment as opposed to a miss chance allows them to hide) just for icing.

Warlock 7/Incarnate 3/Ametsezko 10 v Warlock 20
Pros: +20 skill points, +1 Fort, +3 to Will saves, +4d6 eldritch blast damage (Monblast), ability to use invocations in gaseous form, DR 10/magic and silver (i.e. +5 DR); Incarnate stuff, 20% concealment.
Cons: -2 BAB, 2 less Dark Invocations, no energy resistance, no Fiendish Resilience, no Imbue Item.

Overall: Probably a better warlock than a warlock, but again close; +4d6 damage vs 2 Dark Invocations is something that could be argued either way (and I will note you can still fit Hellfire Warlock and a Naberius dip in this… compared to Warlock 16/Hellfire 3/Binder 1 you’re actually only 1 dark invocation behind but you lose deceive item). With the incarnate stuff you are way ahead and again the concealment is icing on the cake.

Warlock 2/Incarnate 3/Ametsezko 10 vs Gestalt Warlock|Incarnate 15
Pros: +20 Skill Points, +4 to Will saves, +4d6 eldritch blast damage, ability to use invocations in gaseous form, DR 10/magic and silver (i.e. +6 DR), up to +5 necrocarnum soulmelds, +5 necrocarnum chakra binds, constant +1 to essentia capacity, save DC, and meldshaper level with necrocarnum, 20% concealment.
Cons: -2 BAB, -1 Ref, -3 Fort, Deceive Item, Imbue Item, Fiendish Resilience 1, Energy Resistance (5 to 2 types), -2 Greater Invocations, no non-necrocarnum Throat/Waist binds, 1 less non-necrocarnum chakra bind, 4 less essentia, 1 less essentia capacity, loses 3/day +2 to essentia capacity +1 to save DC and meldshaper level with necrocarnum, loses rapid meldshaping (2/day).

Overall: It’s close to being more powerful than Gestalting the two classes. Again we see 4d6 damage/2 invocations, and they have a lot more raw soulmelds/chakra binds than the gestalt character. It also gains concealment which makes up for some of its failings (2 least invocations can give it with awkwardness, it’d be valued around a lesser).

Final Summation: Unless it is your belief that Warlock and Incarnate are both in need of a power buff to fix them then I’d suggest doing something to curb the power of Moonblast and Pact of the Moonchild as these are the big offenders for power level. As is, if you made it only advance one of the two it’d still be arguably better than straight either class with the requirement of dipping out. I don't really know why they get Moonblast; if you wanted to do something to show their mastery of incarnum making them better at eldritch blast let them invest essentia into eldritch blast or some such, as is it's almost as much extra damage as hellfire warlock with less cost. Perhaps instead of gaining damage they gain the ability to invest essentia into their eldritch blast to get a bonus to the save DC of their Eldritch Blast (maybe +1/2 essentia or +1/essentia but with a capacity based off of purely their class level), it would be thematic for combining Incarnum and EB, and if it made the blast default to Cold damage could keep the moon theme as well.Pact of the Moonchild is flavorful and I like it, but it also grants as many chakra binds as 20 levels in Incarnate and potentially 5 free soulmelds when 20 levels in incarnate get you 9 so it needs to be toned down. Unless you intended it to still count against their soulmelds shaped in which case it is more reasonable as it trades vulnerability to dispel and versatility in your soulmeld choices for more chakra binds but it feels like either way they probably need to get it less than 5 times. As it is you could take away Moonblast and Pact of the Moonchild from each level and they'd still get abilities, often meaningful ones, at most levels in addition to progression in both classes. Come to think of it is Pact of the Moonchild supposed to occupy chakra binds? It doesn't read like it, but that in itself is actually really powerful.

Also with No Truth But Whimsy does that mean they automatically pass Bluff checks to tell lies? And where can the Void subtype be found?

Now this has been about the crunch because well I suck at critiquing fluff, but the class definitely has a cool feel to it which makes me want to play it. That's a good thing. The mechanics show a certain feel and theme without written fluff which is another strength. As a whole I like the class, but as a DM I couldn't with good conscience allow it in a game unless I felt that the party was playing at a power level where incarnate and warlock would be underpowered and that is a problem unless the PrC is intended as a class fix which I do not see any indicators to believe (it seems more likely that warlock's eldritch blast damage being increased by +1 level of existing class stuff was forgotten).

I've seen your stuff before and tend to like it so I'm guessing there's some assumption I'm making about Pact of Moonchild/Moonblast that I shouldn't be, or something meant to limit them not written in (I know I've left out stuff like that before).

[Amechra]

Oh, shoot - I forgot that Eldritch Blast being raised by Caster Level progression is an automatic thing. I think I'll nerf Moon-Mad Meldshaper and change Moonblast altogether.

As for No Truth But Whimsy... I should rephrase it; it's essentially an Extraordinary Glibness effect that doesn't give you a bonus to Bluff checks.

The reason Pact of the Moonchild works the way it does is because entering their Natural Form suppresses any Supernatural abilities they have - and Soulmelds are Supernatural abilities.

Does that sound like it would fix the issues you have?

EDIT: It's been fixed up. I... kinda scrapped Moonblast and replaced it with Drawing on Mother Ilazki, a feature that lets them trade in dice of Eldritch Blast for more Essentia (plus some minor bonuses) - the Invocations from Pact of the Moonchild no longer count as Necrocarnum Soulmelds automatically, they are no longer uniquely Incarnate based (heck, Incarnate isn't even one of their Favored Classes!)

Oh, and the [Void] subtype was in a few Wizards web articles - it basically gives you Ex Invisibility. That you can toggle on and off, as well as immunity to Negative levels.

(Oh, and thanks for your kind words about liking my stuff.)



Oh, and I'm a bit sad that I can't enter two PrCs - it was a toss up between the Ametsezko and the Painter o (http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/269/7/c/7c55a7c7d7ee50c780586055aa2af505-d3jsaql.jpg)f Angels (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/071/7/d/friends_set_you_free_by_destinyblue-d5xt145.jpg) for Aasimar or Savesties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386641-quot-Angels-Aren-t-Real-quot-Race-Incarnum-PEACH).

[Amechra]

Oh, and to return the favor...

The Elan Exemplar is totally the kind of thing I'd play - I love psionic bioenhancement as a theme, and hate having to pick out powers. Easy to get into, too.

I do think you have to specify a universal limit for power point spending on class features, though - it's kinda annoying to have to check to see if it's class level or class level + 1 for a particular class feature. I suggest sticking with the Class Level + 1 for their class features - it's simple but powerful.

What do they base their bonus PP off of? Class level? Twice class level? Character level? I do think they get an awful lot of Power Points, but then again, that's probably just so they have enough to get them through the day.

I rather like the different features; though my favorite has to be the line that enhances Elan Retainment, because I love that feat. It does make the prereqs feel weird; you need to have 6HD before you can take Elan Retainment, after all, and you'd be hardpressed to have lower than a +4 base Save unless you were an Elan Commoner.

Part of me would like to see Absolute Resilience based more on Class level; maybe only apply the benefits to the first [Class Level + 1] points you spend?

[Zaydos]

Oh, and to return the favor...

The Elan Exemplar is totally the kind of thing I'd play - I love psionic bioenhancement as a theme, and hate having to pick out powers. Easy to get into, too.

I do think you have to specify a universal limit for power point spending on class features, though - it's kinda annoying to have to check to see if it's class level or class level + 1 for a particular class feature. I suggest sticking with the Class Level + 1 for their class features - it's simple but powerful.

I didn't do a universal limit because the limits built into most of the numbers and into increasing them in the game already were so different. I mean with a single fixed number they could get BAB 28 for a round, or +11... well 22 to a skill, and +20 to a save (which is already the limit and fairly crazy but it's so defensive). I'll think about it, but it'd really change how Psionic Aptitude works, for example, as it goes from being able to give you +1 (+6 with greater) on a skill you are good at but make you good at a skill you are bad at to a version of Factotum's skill boosting ability which can be used with power points instead of 1/day per skill. Would encourage them to enter via full BAB classes... decisions.


What do they base their bonus PP off of? Class level? Twice class level? Character level? I do think they get an awful lot of Power Points, but then again, that's probably just so they have enough to get them through the day.

I looked at the psion table and gave them the amount a psion has at Lv 20 - the amount at Lv 10 so that if you went 10/10 they'd have the same as if they went pure Psion. It might be too much and I might should lower it to say the what a psion gets when going from 8th to 18th level or 7th to 17th or even from 5th to 15th. The more I think about it the more I think they might get too many PP (255 means that with an average of let's say 18 rounds of combat a day they could spend 14 PP a round and still be able to get +36 cumulative to skill checks throughout the day. And that's before the 15 bonus PP for Int 16 (assuming they aren't heavily investing Int but are willing to put the money into a headband of Int).


I rather like the different features; though my favorite has to be the line that enhances Elan Retainment, because I love that feat. It does make the prereqs feel weird; you need to have 6HD before you can take Elan Retainment, after all, and you'd be hardpressed to have lower than a +4 base Save unless you were an Elan Commoner.

Did Elan Retainment get errata'd my copy of Complete Psionic just listed 3 HD as its prereqs. I might swap it for any Elan Racial feat and make Elan Retainment a fixed bonus feat at 1st level. Actually either way I'm going to do that because the PP cost of Elan Retainment is so high as to discourage characters without a psionic class from taking it for 3 levels just to get into this class.


Part of me would like to see Absolute Resilience based more on Class level; maybe only apply the benefits to the first [Class Level + 1] points you spend?

I like this suggestion and will be implementing it.

Edit Missed the edit on the post above


EDIT: It's been fixed up. I... kinda scrapped Moonblast and replaced it with Drawing on Mother Ilazki, a feature that lets them trade in dice of Eldritch Blast for more Essentia (plus some minor bonuses) - the Invocations from Pact of the Moonchild no longer count as Necrocarnum Soulmelds automatically, they are no longer uniquely Incarnate based (heck, Incarnate isn't even one of their Favored Classes!)

Oh, and the [Void] subtype was in a few Wizards web articles - it basically gives you Ex Invisibility. That you can toggle on and off, as well as immunity to Negative levels.

(Oh, and thanks for your kind words about liking my stuff.)



Oh, and I'm a bit sad that I can't enter two PrCs - it was a toss up between the Ametsezko and the Painter o (http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/269/7/c/7c55a7c7d7ee50c780586055aa2af505-d3jsaql.jpg)f Angels (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/071/7/d/friends_set_you_free_by_destinyblue-d5xt145.jpg) for Aasimar or Savesties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?386641-quot-Angels-Aren-t-Real-quot-Race-Incarnum-PEACH).

I'll have to read over it again sometime (right now I need a break). You probably ought to link the Wizards web article with the void subtype so that people will know what it means.

And I know what you mean about limits I had a list of concepts:
Druidforged (mechanical concept first and foremost, druidic warforged that got Construct Wild Shape and a Construct Companion... just couldn't think of fluff), Soul Forger (Dwarven meldshapers dedicated to Moradin who sought to emulate his ultimate act of creation... the creation of souls as an act of ultimate worship), Dwarven Exemplar (dwarf only tall tale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326799-Tall-Tale-%283-5-Base-Class-Contest-Winner-PEACH%29) PrC which would have gotten exaggerated dwarf traits on the scale of Storied Skills), Elven Exemplar (see Dwarven Exemplar but Elven). Finally I decided that this one was the most fun even if I couldn't think of a good name for it.

[Amechra]

Oops, I misremembered on Elan Retainment.

As for the universal limit, I meant that you'd keep the same maximums (HD+1 for BAB, HD+[4 or 9] for the skills), but that you just standardize the amount you can spend in the general sense. Sorry if I was misunderstood. (I also think the bonus from Superior Resistance is a bit... much. +1 for each PP past the first would still be pretty good.)

I'd suggest giving them 5 pp per class level and letting them get bonus PP based off their class level + 1/2 HD. That way, someone who just decided to dip Elan Exemplar without any other Psionic levels would get some benefit out of high Intelligence.

[Zaydos]

Oops, I misremembered on Elan Retainment.

As for the universal limit, I meant that you'd keep the same maximums (HD+1 for BAB, HD+[4 or 9] for the skills), but that you just standardize the amount you can spend in the general sense. Sorry if I was misunderstood. (I also think the bonus from Superior Resistance is a bit... much. +1 for each PP past the first would still be pretty good.)

I'm still undecided on Superior Resistance's bonus myself. I got the original number basing it off of Diamond Defense which as a martial maneuver can theoretically be done a lot (~2/encounter) where this drains your other daily use abilities and will eventually whittle you dry. The problems with that comparison however are many. Firstly I apparently misremembered Diamond Defense as +20 instead of +IL, and as level 7 instead of level 8. These two are relatively minor to the third. It is dependent of course upon DM but with most DMs not every enemy will spam save effects and you will need DD/Superior Resistance in say half your encounters (this does increase at higher levels) but when you do need it you may need it every round which a warblade or swordsage cannot do. That is a critical advantage to the effect and while I kind of like thematically the ability to make the die almost irrelevant (if it was possible for you to succeed barring automatic success Superior Resistance could make you succeed barring automatic failure) the price I set was definitely too low. My options are either halve the bonus and leave you capped at +6-+10 (with another +4-+6 from the racial feature you're improving so really +10-+16) or halve the bonus and make it uncapped which loses the progression in the ability's power. So halved and capped it is.


I'd suggest giving them 5 pp per class level and letting them get bonus PP based off their class level + 1/2 HD. That way, someone who just decided to dip Elan Exemplar without any other Psionic levels would get some benefit out of high Intelligence.

Don't want to make them that dependent upon an additional ability score, it's a class meant to be entered in a wide variety of ways and ultimately playing in combat like a martial character to make 50% or more of their PPs come from Int (20 Int would grant 50 PP at character level 20 with that method). I changed their PP to be 175 over 10 levels (a little less than the average between PsyWar 11-20 and Psion 11-20), might end up dropping it further to equal PsyWars gain but since they lack the multiple encounter buffs of a psywar and for the most part lack multi-round buffs I expect they need more PP than PsyWars although less than Psions. Assuming 18 (after items) for Wisdom they would have 215 PP at 20th. That'd give them 10 PP per round assuming 4 encounters with 4.5 rounds each and leaves 35 for skills (or 11/round and 17 for skills). This leaves them unable to use defensive abilities and pseudo-sneak attack every round of combat, which I believe is a good thing.

[Amechra]

I had a brainfart where I thought they were a 20-level class - hence my suggesting 5pp per level (How I got that impression I will never know).

Maybe a progression like...

6
13
21
30
40
51
63
76
90
105

Would work, if you went with basing your bonus PP off 1/2 HD + Class Level (But I'm just rambling on at this point; I like where you're headed.)

Though I do have to wonder... did you look at other Psionic PrCs that have their own progressions, like the Warmind? The Warmind caps at 70pp and the Psionic Fist caps at 71. Glancing over at DSP's stuff, the Yuda of Thought caps at 70 and the Sighted Seeker caps at 86.

None of those classes have an innate, non-cheesy way to regenerate PP like the Elan Exemplar does - the Elan Exemplar needs to use their PP more often, though, so I'd say that capping at 105 might be enough, with any other PP you get from Psion levels or whatever being gravy. Remember, you aren't going to be spending more than 10~11 pp on any of your features (very often, at least), whereas a high-level Psion needs that many PP because they have to spend 17+ pp on their highest level powers.

[Zaydos]

In semirelated news to this whole thing I made the dwarf incarnum class that I thought about making for this contest. I named it Soulcrafter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394437-Soulcrafter-%283-5-PrC-Dwarf-Incarnum%29).


I had a brainfart where I thought they were a 20-level class - hence my suggesting 5pp per level (How I got that impression I will never know).

Maybe a progression like...

6
13
21
30
40
51
63
76
90
105

Would work, if you went with basing your bonus PP off 1/2 HD + Class Level (But I'm just rambling on at this point; I like where you're headed.)

Though I do have to wonder... did you look at other Psionic PrCs that have their own progressions, like the Warmind? The Warmind caps at 70pp and the Psionic Fist caps at 71. Glancing over at DSP's stuff, the Yuda of Thought caps at 70 and the Sighted Seeker caps at 86.

I didn't partially because I forgot Psionic Fist existed and because I always found Warmind's progression problematic in actual play (never messed with DSP's PrCs so can't say). I am still thinking about lowering it but...


None of those classes have an innate, non-cheesy way to regenerate PP like the Elan Exemplar does - the Elan Exemplar needs to use their PP more often, though, so I'd say that capping at 105 might be enough, with any other PP you get from Psion levels or whatever being gravy. Remember, you aren't going to be spending more than 10~11 pp on any of your features (very often, at least), whereas a high-level Psion needs that many PP because they have to spend 17+ pp on their highest level powers.

13 PP allows them to match a Sneak Attack Fighter for base line combat capabilities for 1 round, 10 gives them their sneak attack equivalent which is why I've been thinking about 10/round. That said it's an incorrect assumption on my part because it assumes a full attack each round and that won't be happening. I'll probably end up cutting back on the PP, I'm just worried that if I do that enough it will simply be better to progress Psion... but that really only applies if you entered via psion.

[Amechra]

Dudeness, it will pretty much always be better to just progress Psion. They don't get any more powers out of levels in Elan Exemplar, so if they want to do Psion things, they really should stay Psions.

[Zaydos]

Dudeness, it will pretty much always be better to just progress Psion. They don't get any more powers out of levels in Elan Exemplar, so if they want to do Psion things, they really should stay Psions.

I meant to use the class features from the class. I am fine with Psion being better, I am worried if Psion 16/EE 4 is better at being an EE. That said they'd lose a lot (2 pp/attack, ability to use resilience as a free action, ability to buff saves further, speed, ability scores, the sneak attack substitute). It is probably a groundless fear and why I'm thinking about lowering it still it just requires...

I need to build one and run it through sample encounters.

[Amechra]

And that's why you cap PP expenditures on class features at Class Level + 1, while retaining any other limits on the bonus.

[asnys]

Regarding "specific race or culture of people from published materials": what are the boundaries of "published materials"? I've been thinking about doing a prestige class based on something from Magic: The Gathering; is that too far afield?

[Zaydos]

Regarding "specific race or culture of people from published materials": what are the boundaries of "published materials"? I've been thinking about doing a prestige class based on something from Magic: The Gathering; is that too far afield?

I know that I hope that's within the boundaries. Sounds like it might be interesting. Though you might need to find a place where 3.5 stats for the race was posted. Vedalkens?

[ezkajii]

Aaaand I'm in!

[JoshuaZ]

Class done. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to finish formatting the vilefire spells. I'll have to post them afterwords, which means people should just imagine that whatever they are, they are really cool but balanced.

[Zaydos]

This still going on? Not really sure how long after the contest is supposed to end before someone should poke it and ask if everything is alright.

[Techwarrior]

Yes, sorry about that. My car broke down while I was on a road trip that I was supposed to get back from three days ago. The voting thread is going up now, and I'm going to get the new contest thread up tonight.

[ezkajii]

Do we have a voting thread yet? I noticed the expiration is coming up and I don't want to miss my chance to vote but I haven't seen it.

[Techwarrior]

So...life.

Anyway, voting thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404920-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Voting-Thread-XLIX-It-s-Another-Race-Thing&p=18990731#post18990731)

I really do apologize for the wait, and I'm working on getting the next contest up right now.

Edit: And here it is, in all it's naked glory Size Matters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404923-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-L-Size-Matters&p=18990755#post18990755).

[LordotTrinkets]

I'm fairly new to the art of prestige class making, but I'm trying this out anyway.

[Jormengand]

I'll probably do something for this. Why not?

EDIT: Not doing a sample character right now. But have an otherwise-done class. What'cha think?

[LordotTrinkets]

I'll probably do something for this. Why not?

EDIT: Not doing a sample character right now. But have an otherwise-done class. What'cha think?

Same here.

My opinion? I sort of have the feeling this might be overpowered. Sure you get to make a spell bigger only if it's within X level, but even then it's a bit much. Widen spell increases the effective spell level for a reason you know, and anybody who's willing to pass up that much power is a chump (I can cast all my 1st level evocations like they were level four but still use a 1st level spell slot? Yes please!). And then on top of that, this allows you to put this on meteor swarm, again, epic levels put a cap on spell levels at 10 for a reason you know. You might want to look at the 'sudden-(metamagic)' feats in Complete Arcane for ideas on how to better balance this (it might be Complete Mage, I have trouble telling them apart in my head).

My advice? Make this into an epic prestige class, put a limits on times per day, add some difficult to obtain prerequisites, or a combination of the three. Don't get me wrong, the PrC is awesome, just needs some retooling to keep the other classes at pace with it. :smallsmile:

So after that long winded rant, how did I do? I'm pretty sure that I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum to you, which would make rebalancing considerably harder.

[DeAnno]

@ Monster Rider: A pretty interesting and unique idea overall. Entry reqs are reasonably steep (Rogue 5 + some feats rogue 5 usually does not get), so it has room to be good. Generally, I think it probably is at least reasonably useful, but there are some weird mechanics that could use ironing out.

First, the Piggy Back ability is a bit strange. Most grappling requires a melee touch attack to start, which is probably fair. After all, if the thing you're trying to ride is too dodgy for you to touch, you should probably fail at riding it. Second, you're not able to establish holds with normal grapples against things two or more sizes larger than you, and its unclear if this ability supersedes that with current text. Third, the definition of "shoulder height" for the purposes of the bonus is pretty vague.

You might also want to clear up what sort of action using a Ride check to move a creature is, both on the initial turn of the grapple and on subsequent turns. Clarifying that Trigger Ability lets you choose the targets is probably also wise.

I think the idea of the class is pretty good though, and it scales well for different games because its value depends on how good the opposition is.

@ Spellsizer: Despite the seeming strength of this thing you are losing 3 caster levels, which I think should give it a lot of slack. Most of the widening and DPS mechanics seem fine; for the price of three caster levels you should be able to buy a lot of that, and at the end of the day widening and multi-targeting are only going to be really good in so many situations.

More concerning is the size increases on summons; you should define how the summons' stats change when their size increases (is it according to the table in the monster manual?) If they are getting full-on monster manual stat increases, three sizes for free with every summon seems pretty excessive (that could be +24 str plus reach plus a bunch of other stuff). I would maybe rethink this whole mechanic a little if its intended to increase stats. If its just intended to be a naked size category change, probably state directly that it doesn't increase stats.

If anyone has thoughts on the half-mad late night idea that was the Bumblebee, feel free to share them.

[Jormengand]

More concerning is the size increases on summons; you should define how the summons' stats change when their size increases (is it according to the table in the monster manual?) If they are getting full-on monster manual stat increases, three sizes for free with every summon seems pretty excessive (that could be +24 str plus reach plus a bunch of other stuff).

If anyone has thoughts on the half-mad late night idea that was the Bumblebee, feel free to share them.

Hmm. What I could do is give it the same level limits as the widened/huge/massive spells. Would that work?

Hey, "Half-mad late night idea" won me the base class contest before last. Let's have a look at this critter.

Entry reqs... possible by level 3: intentional? Most PrCs require 5 to move in on 6 or 13 to move in on 14. Some odd ones have slightly harder requirements (EK and AbC can be level 5'd, but not by anything that would actually want to do so, for example) but not many have easier requirements without early entry tricks.

Either Underfoot Combat will be useless when you get it because you'll be small, or the last size decrease won't actually decrease your size because you'll be fine already. Which is odd.

Flight forever is a really strong ability, especially at good maneuverability - compare DD 9 (Min 14th) and bumblebee 4 (Min 7th). Or if you like, compare Sor 6 (Min 6th) which allows maybe 24 minutes of flight if you milk it for all it's worth.

Monks have to be lawful, but fey are either always TN, always NG, another always NG, or usually CG. A fey-based class that anyway has no real reason to benefit from monk levels shouldn't really get a special multiclass bonus with them.

[DeAnno]

Entry reqs... possible by level 3: intentional? Most PrCs require 5 to move in on 6 or 13 to move in on 14. Some odd ones have slightly harder requirements (EK and AbC can be level 5'd, but not by anything that would actually want to do so, for example) but not many have easier requirements without early entry tricks.

It is the intent for now, though I've been waffling. The only class that does that alone is PsyRogue, everything else would need to dip around. I may space it back to 5, though I'm unsure how I want to do it especially elegantly.


Either Underfoot Combat will be useless when you get it because you'll be small, or the last size decrease won't actually decrease your size because you'll be fine already. Which is odd.

If you were Small, then you are now Tiny, and I would rather not penalize Small races entering this class. If the last Size Decrease doesn't do anything they *do* get 4 dex instead of 2, so that's something.


Flight forever is a really strong ability, especially at good maneuverability - compare DD 9 (Min 14th) and bumblebee 4 (Min 7th). Or if you like, compare Sor 6 (Min 6th) which allows maybe 24 minutes of flight if you milk it for all it's worth.

I think this will be fixed if I push it back to 9th with 5th level entry again, or perhaps even 10th. I didn't want the ability at Bumblebee 6 because that level can pick up Sneak Attack and Improved Evasion is weaker, so makes the progression more balanced. HIPS is better, so still should be at 8.


Monks have to be lawful, but fey are either always TN, always NG, another always NG, or usually CG. A fey-based class that anyway has no real reason to benefit from monk levels shouldn't really get a special multiclass bonus with them.

They sort of slid into prominence on the strength of early Evasion, but this is a good point. I'll probably slide the entry req around and let Strength and weapon damage go down as usual.

---

With regards to level limits, either way you should clarify if they get the stats from the size increases or not. I personally think with the Widen limits it would still be too strong; maybe it needs its own (spells of level 1-2 for your most size increases, 3-4 for second most, 5-6 for third most or something)?

[Jormengand]

With regards to level limits, either way you should clarify if they get the stats from the size increases or not. I personally think with the Widen limits it would still be too strong; maybe it needs its own (spells of level 1-2 for your most size increases, 3-4 for second most, 5-6 for third most or something)?

It now clarifies just that.

Well, a single increase in size category won't make your eigth-level summons (You're using The Flame on your ninth-level spell, let's be honest) particularly horrific; the second most is already 2-4 by level, and the last is 2-3 by level.

Speaking of The Flame that Burns Worlds, just how horrifically powerful is it? I notice neither of you mentioned it. Is Blast Ablaze clear enough in its concept and what it does? What about Irresistible Force, which - I heard you liked free metamagic - basically slaps down searing spell++ on everything; is that too strong?

[DeAnno]

On Irresistible Force, it really is only Searing++. At the end of the day, and the defenses in this game that are reliable and should be counted on are Saves and Touch AC, neither of which it gets by. The Summons seem fixed enough.

The Flame that Burns Worlds is hard to judge. I think the first use is not overpowered, as spells for destroying vast amounts of stuff already exist, and armies and cities are not really the currency that has power in D&D anyway. The second use could maybe get out of control, but the fundamental problem of the summons all popping eventually and them needing to be fit into the area could reign it back. The third thing could maybe get out of control (Unto the Masses is in general, good), since it can really wreck a tactical-scale encounter and the usual defense of spreading out doesn't work. All and all, being a 1/day makes it sort of hard to understand in its impact, since those kinds of things are very swingy.

[LordotTrinkets]

Ok, just finished the fluffy-stuff, edited the wording, and added a new ability. 'Defensive Riding', which should help deal with those pesky archers. On a different note, can anyone tell me WHY balance doesn't provide a synergy bonus to ride checks... What do they expect the average cavalier to use when riding his horse, some kind of animal affinity:smalltongue:

Anyway: Here's more critique

Bumblebee: Concept seems pretty good, prerequisites logical (I can see a case being made for Autohypnosis), fairly well balanced by my admittedly untrained eye. My only problem is that at least one of the skills quickly obsolete. Combat is balanced by giving out a sneak attack, but why would something that learns to fly at level four (when a pencil is NOT an insurmountable barrier) need to have skills in climb? It's nit-picky, perhaps, but it seems best to leave out any such redundant skills.

The Fire that Burns Worlds: At first it seemed unbelievably powerful, but then as I thought it over, it seems to be balanced. As DeAnno pointed out, armies aren't much of a currency in the long run and many of the powers tend to throttle themselves when assuming fairly cramped quarters. Even then the summoning one balances itself out. It only increases size, not strength or hit points, so though a colossal celestial hound could theoretically dish out a lot of damage, it would likely be wiped out in one hit, since it's retained its original HP. The part that affects single-person spells seems problematic, but applying the same reasoning as with the x100 widener, it's still on par.

Just one quick question. As the picture suggests, spellsizers like to use this on fireballs to make them go nuclear, but whats to stop the thing from swallowing the caster up in the inferno? Max range of the spell is 1,200ft, but the radius of the spell would be 2,000! Spellsizers might want to think VERY carefully what spells they supercharge, lest they backfire epically. :smallbiggrin:

[ezkajii]

Alright, just put up the Multiplier! Somewhat of an oblique take on the size-focus, but I really like it. If anyone would PEACH it that would be greatly appreciated! It took me a little out of my comfort zone to make. :smallsmile:

[Jormengand]

Guys... guys...

The Explosive Twin Thunder Energy Substitution (Electricity) Flash Frost Snowcast locate city That Burns Worlds.

For reference, using practiced spellcaster the range is about twice the diameter of the earth the moment you get The Flame that Burns Worlds, meaning that if you cast it from where you're sitting, you cannot fail to hit absolutely everything ever, causing NI damage to it as it is literally flung off the earth's surface.

This is the kind of stuff that you get when you combine TO and homebrew. :smalltongue:

[ezkajii]

Guys... guys...

The Explosive Twin Thunder Energy Substitution (Electricity) Flash Frost Snowcast locate city That Burns Worlds.

For reference, using practiced spellcaster the range is about twice the diameter of the earth the moment you get The Flame that Burns Worlds, meaning that if you cast it from where you're sitting, you cannot fail to hit absolutely everything ever, causing NI damage to it as it is literally flung off the earth's surface.

This is the kind of stuff that you get when you combine TO and homebrew. :smalltongue:

Oh God!

Hey, I actually had a question about the spellsizer's Automatic Widen... it states that it applies to spells whose level is equal to the spellsizer's caster level or below; I'm wondering if you meant the spellsizer class level, so that an 8th-level spellsizer would only be able to auto-widen 8th level spells, or if it is meant to scale directly off caster level?

[Jormengand]

Oh God!

Hey, I actually had a question about the spellsizer's Automatic Widen... it states that it applies to spells whose level is equal to the spellsizer's caster level or below; I'm wondering if you meant the spellsizer class level, so that an 8th-level spellsizer would only be able to auto-widen 8th level spells, or if it is meant to scale directly off caster level?

Don't combine TO and brew, people. :smalltongue:

It's supposed to read class level. Nice catch.

[Zaydos]

Don't combine TO and brew, people. :smalltongue:

It's supposed to read class level. Nice catch.

Eh? Why not? I mean TO doesn't work for actual play anyway, it's main use is the humor of what things allow so why not combine it with brew for the lols? :smalltongue:

[Jormengand]

Eh? Why not? I mean TO doesn't work for actual play anyway, it's main use is the humor of what things allow so why not combine it with brew for the lols? :smalltongue:

*Throws Zaydos off the earth with the LCB that burns worlds.*

Oops.

[Zaydos]

*Throws Zaydos off the earth with the LCB that burns worlds.*

Oops.

Technically I don't collide into anything so I don't take damage, and I might have levels in a class that lets me live in space (or simply have Cold Immunity and a pair of Ioun Stones), so I will fly back to the world soon enough.

[Jormengand]

Technically I don't collide into anything so I don't take damage, and I might have levels in a class that lets me live in space (or simply have Cold Immunity and a pair of Ioun Stones), so I will fly back to the world soon enough.

You take damage from explosive spell regardless of whether or not you collide with anything.

[Zaydos]

You take damage from explosive spell regardless of whether or not you collide with anything.

Ah yes, being hit into things actually reduces it for some weird reason :smallconfused:

[Jormengand]

Ah yes, being hit into things actually reduces it for some weird reason :smallconfused:

Well, it's clear how it came about and also clear that it wasn't intended to come about.

[LordotTrinkets]

So we're past the deadline, when does the voting thread come out?

[Techwarrior]

It usually comes out whenever I get to it the next day.

Edit: Oh look, a voting thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410973-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Voting-Thread-L-Size-Matters&p=19144006)

I'll get the next contest up in a day or two. Any suggestions as to theme before I get it up will be looked at, if not blatantly stolen.

[boomwolf]

"wrong way", a class that specialises in doing something that is usually a bad thing, and making it into an advantage.

[Jormengand]

"wrong way", a class that specialises in doing something that is usually a bad thing, and making it into an advantage.

Yes! I love this idea... and I have a good idea for it.

[ezkajii]

"wrong way", a class that specialises in doing something that is usually a bad thing, and making it into an advantage.

That would certainly be interesting! Unlike Jormengand I can't say I have an idea on hand but I'm definitely intrigued by the concept.

[Yasahiro]

What, there are no size-shifting classes for those who want to be big or small? Damn... That contest could have gotten more classes.

Either way, I like how Bumblebee says most people don't take all the levels... Though I like to imagine what adventures a fine sized humanoid or someone could have. Or reasons for becoming so small....

[Techwarrior]

Current contest Um... What? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412914-GiTP-Prestige-Class-Contest-LI-Um-What&p=19194575) is up.

[Amechra]

Dare I presume that the deadline is May 20th, and is not, in fact, in the past?

(Also, you might want to update the link to the chat thread in the contest description/rules block.)

[boomwolf]

He also needs to write what's it actually about. I assume it's my idea,but maybe not.
Anyway it's probably an edit in progress.

[Jormengand]

He also needs to write what's it actually about. I assume it's my idea,but maybe not.
Anyway it's probably an edit in progress.

You mean like:


This class must do something that would be bad in any other fashion, but this class makes it good. Whether it be a Mystic Theurge revamp, a class based around setting yourself on fire, or a class requiring the Diligent feat.

[boomwolf]

...
Seriously, I missed it. Amusing.

[Temotei]

...
Seriously, I missed it. Amusing.

There's an idea! A class about failing Spot checks. We get those a lot. :smalltongue:

[boomwolf]

I can see already that this contest is going to end up as comedy gold XD

[Zaydos]

I am contemplating a legendary fool who gets immunity to charm, transmutation, and illusion just by not realizing he's supposed to be affected by it.

[Amechra]

May I introduce you fine folks to il Bravazzo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19198004&postcount=4)?

She's a Dex-based Tank who draws aggro to herself and is entirely based around one-weapon fighting. I just need to write up the sample encounter and she'll be done.

[Amechra]

I am willing to begin the cycle of fruit-giving:

Jormengand's Cursebearer
Prerequisites: Simple and to the point; that "5 curses" requirement is pretty harsh, but this isn't the "good ideas" competition, so...
Skill List: Looks really small to me; I think they should at least get Profession, and maybe Appraise.
Chassis: Obvious warrior class is obvious; no problems here.
Ignore Curse: I guess this is necessary (and probably welcome at this point); when you say that Cursed items they wear are "obviously" cursed, do you mean the Cursebearer is automatically aware that the item's cursed, or that everyone who can see the item knows that it's cursed?
Project Curse: I think the different powers need to be written out explicitly; plus, some of them are heads and shoulders above the other choices of their level (Berserk is much stronger than Bloodlust, for example). I suggest you rejigger these a bit.
Invert Curse: Interesting; it takes some adjudication on the part of the DM, but then again what did you expect?
Master Curse: Wonderful. I mean wonderful. I like it.
Cursed Existence: This is effectively just making all cursed items slotless and slapping a 50% discount on top of the discount for making a cursed item. This is really, really strong; depending on the campaign, this could be borderline broken (in the sense that you'll be walking about with twice as much stuff for the same cost as everyone else).
Fluff: It's rather light and generic, but this isn't the Cursebearer of the Overly Occult Pretentiousness Society (O.O.P.S.), so that's fine.
Verdict: It feels unfinished; I think replacing the Project Curse with Master Curse might be the way to go, with a new 4th level ability that expands on Master Curse (more range, better DC, whatever).

I'll do The Legendary Fool when I have time.

[Network]

For once I think I'll actually try the contest. My plan is to create a prestige class with ridiculously atrocious prerequisites, yet so worthwhile and flavorful that having a wracked character build suddenly isn't a problem anymore.

[Techwarrior]

The deadline is in fact May 20th, not April 20th. My apologies.

Let's try and get some more entries in folks, I'm hoping for at least two more before the deadline is up, for maximum competitiveness.

[boomwolf]

The fact I have yet to post means not I am not working. Hope I just finish on time.

Might as well write my concept - restless mage, a full caster PrC who gains power by NOT resting (yet still casting) . The longer, the better. Effectively gaining from doing the reverse of "five minutes workday", the more he strains his spell plots and let me hem dry, the more powerful he becomes.


Well, posted a WiP.

Still missing few abilities, and quite some fluff. but its coming together.

[The Vagabond]

I'm actually working on a Mystic Theurge revamp... And am not ENTIRELY sure whether to make it so that it loses 4, or whether it should lose only the regular 3, and whether to make it a 10 level one, 13 level, or a 15 level prestige class.

The primary power I have is the ability to combine multiple spells into one single spell, shattering the action economy, while still remaining flavorful by having the Arcane and Divine slowly merge together as you progress into Mystic Theurge, until they are combined into one spellcasting method. Combine this with a minor boon based on your class adding to a Theurgy feel, you end up with an entertaining class.

[Glimbur]

PEACH for il Bravazzo

Intended entry is a little unclear. Probably Swashbuckler 2/Scout 2/Something 2 to get the BAB required. 3 feats to enter is painful. They're all classy and useful feats (I'm not sold on Combat Reflexes but it's probably here for Il Duello, Ala Mazza, and Passato Sotto) so it may be ok but you invest a lot in qualifying for this PrC.

Skill list looks a lot like scout, and this class feels like it should be 6+ skill points. d8 hit die is very swashbuckler and is also good.

Full BAB and good Ref only is fine; I wondered if Battle Fortitude might find its way in here but it's ok that it didn't.

Il Duello is pretty effective tanking for fighting one opponent. It punishes them for attacking elsewhere, but also is not implausible.

Savvy Duelist is pretty necessary to keep the scout-age going.

Spada Solo is nice, though maybe the Dex to damage should also only work with single weapon one handed fighting.

Desvio is a good incremental improvement to AC for a dex-based character. Eventually they will always fight defensively, which is fine.

Fancy Footwork is flavorful and fine for balance; not terribly strong but nice.

Scandiaglio is a handy enabler for all this riposte damage we have been working on.

Gaining the Measure is a nice tanking ability. I'm not sure if there should be a limit on the number of bonus 5' steps allowed, especially in light of Ala Mazza.

Ala Mazza is quite good. Now you can really start tanking multiple opponents, and since so many other features trigger of Sneering Glower this is quite good.

I was almost worried about Passato Sotto except that Offhand Balance is triggered by you hitting them and lasts until the end of your turn. That keeps this ability in check; useful but not crazy.

Balleta allows for more mobility and zaniness, but fits the theme. I like it.

Mindless rage is a fun spell and it's quite thematic. It's ok by me that this doesn't also offer a Will save since it does offer the standard Feint check with a bonus for the opponent.

Stocatta is pretty strong. This also encourages duelists to use light picks for the sweet x4 Dex damage, which I don't think is what you want. Maybe just auto-confirm crits and add another ability this level also. That makes the 18-20 range of the rapier still useful.

Esecuzione is a fort save or die 1/encounter, but we're at about 16th level or so and it's probably ok balance-wise. I'm a little bit less sold on this fitting the flavor; I imagine duelists using lots of smaller stabs and bleeding rather than one overwhelming strike. But it's fine.

Infinite Braggadoccio is fitting and useful; otherwise Mind Blank ruins your day too much.

Dodge bonuses are kind of hard to get around, actually. Touch attacks don't help, you need to flat-foot the character or something similar.

All in all, the class does what it sets out to do in flavor and is balanced mechanically. There are a few sour notes that I think could do with a second look, but I would allow it at my table as-is.

[Amechra]

The fact I have yet to post means not I am not working. Hope I just finish on time.

Might as well write my concept - restless mage, a full caster PrC who gains power by NOT resting (yet still casting) . The longer, the better. Effectively gaining from doing the reverse of "five minutes workday", the more he strains his spell plots and let me hem dry, the more powerful he becomes.


Well, posted a WiP.

Still missing few abilities, and quite some fluff. but its coming together.

Ooh, I like.

Wanna trade PEACHes?

[Glimbur]

Also I put in a class and it could do with PEACHes. I'm not sold on all of the Greater Provocations, it feels like there should be more options but I was just thinking of lesser provocations. Could probably do with another Master Provocation too, then I could justify letting them learn two and not just one.

[boomwolf]

Ooh, I like.

Wanna trade PEACHes?
Gladly. I'll take a deeper look at yours after work

[Network]

So I achieved the mechanical aspect of my class and... well, I don't know what you guys will think of it, given that it makes extensive use of the Truenaming subsystem and its primary thing involves learning the personal truename of the target; you guess on whether I made these two mechanics workable, for the class at least. I'll see how I can make Toughness and Vow of Poverty decent choices on their own.

[Network]

So, I assume the contest just closed, or is it next midnight? I'd have liked to write some epic content for the class, but I'm already proud to have finished on time. Should take a closer look at the other entries now...

[Amechra]

I believe it's still open until midnight Forum Time. But I'm unsure.

[boomwolf]

Seeing how I'm also totally with no free time right now, will it be too much to ask a few days extension?

[Network]

That wouldn't be bad. I have two exams tomorrow and another on Friday, but if the contest is extended I could spare the time to write decent stuff for epic levels.

[Techwarrior]

That's fine. I'll extend the contest until the end of Sunday.