Immortality for non-Evil characters

[Extra Anchovies]

What ways are there for a non-evil character to attain immortality in the pre-Epic stage? Preferably ones that aren't reliant on ongoing spell effects; the easiest way to have your day ruined is to get your immortality dispelled. Dry Lich requires only that the character be non-good, but it also requires 10 levels in a prestige class. A Dread Necromancer doesn't have to be evil to gain the Lich template at 20th level, but, well, it requires going single-classed for 20 levels. Are there any immortality-granting templates or otherwise non-AMF/dispelling-vulnerable things for non-evil characters that could be attained without so heavy an investment? Things that can be done via XP/GP expenditure is fine, as are things that have fluff requirements (favor of a deity, doing a super-quest, etc). Class levels are harder to come by, though.

[ThisIsZen]

Archlich from Faerun is one. It's almost functionally identical to the Lich, except that it's good-specific, and also Baelnorn if you're a Faerunian elf. Archlich I'm of the opinion means that there are alternate ways to craft a phylactery that don't require the intense evil the normal method requires, but by a strict reading of what's written, an Archlich still commits the atrocities required to become a normal Lich but is just fiated to not change alignment despite. (It doesn't specify an alternate ritual).

[Extra Anchovies]

Archlich from Faerun is one. It's almost functionally identical to the Lich, except that it's good-specific, and also Baelnorn if you're a Faerunian elf. Archlich I'm of the opinion means that there are alternate ways to craft a phylactery that don't require the intense evil the normal method requires, but by a strict reading of what's written, an Archlich still commits the atrocities required to become a normal Lich but is just fiated to not change alignment despite. (It doesn't specify an alternate ritual).

Thanks for bringing this one to my attention. If there can be good liches, then I guess it wouldn't make too much DM fiat for there to be a Neutral-aligned lich too... :xykon:

[Karmea]

Wedded to History feat from Dragon 354 gets you immortality at level 1.

Handbook. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=jhdo22dbo8bum8d9jupb3evjr5&topic=1179)

[ThisIsZen]

Ah, I was wrong. Archlich is basically just 'any non evil'. So Archliches CAN be neutral.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ah, I was wrong. Archlich is basically just 'any non evil'. So Archliches CAN be neutral.

Oooh, excellent. And looking at the features of the template, it gives some really great stuff, too. Abilities of note:
1. Turn or Rebuke Undead 3/day (I plan on playing an undead-raising LN or TN cleric/bone knight, and more fuel for DMM is always nice)
2. Animate Dead as an SLA (bye-bye having to carry around a bag of 25 gp onyx gems)
3. Immunity to Turning
4. +2 to Wisdom and Charisma (more bonus spells; another turn attempt/day)

The negative energy touch wouldn't hurt either, especially since I plan to take Tomb-Tainted Soul. Better HD (and a loss of Constitution dependency, meaning I don't need to start with it as high as I would otherwise need to), natural armor, paralyzing touch, fear aura, and DR 15/bludgeoning and magic are all just icing on the cake.

...Yeah, I think I'll probably go for this one in the absence of a non-WitW method of becoming a Dry Lich. If only...

[Pan151]

Worth noting that there's absolutely nothing stopping a regular lich from being good or neutral, or an Archlich from being evil...

[Taveena]

Dry Lich from Walker in the Waste 10 (or just slapping the template on for a +5 LA) also grants the benefits of the template, doesn't require Evil (does need nongood though), and gives you charisma to health on every hitdice. Mmmm.

[ShurikVch]

to be a Neutral-aligned lich too... :xykon:
Nijel Turnbottom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a) :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[chainer1216]

Or you could be an Elan from the XPH

(Or a warforged)

[Inevitability]

Becoming a ghost.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dry Lich from Walker in the Waste 10 (or just slapping the template on for a +5 LA) also grants the benefits of the template, doesn't require Evil (does need nongood though), and gives you charisma to health on every hitdice. Mmmm.

I did take a look at it; it seems much cooler to have than vanilla Lich, what with five phylacteries, Cha*HD to HP (and I'll be playing a DMM cleric, so Cha will be high), and all the other stuff. DR is 5 points lower, but 10 is almost as good as 15 (and they both make me immune to paper cuts :smallbiggrin:). The issue is that it takes 10 levels of Walker in the Waste to get. Unless there's some way to undergo the Sere Rite without spending 10 class levels in that PrC?

[ace rooster]

Binding is a spell effect, but is explicitly immune to dispel effects. Even if it is broken you are still left at the age you were when you first cast it, so it is more of an inconvienience than anything else if you have a clone in reserve and suitable precautions against soul trapping effects (Which are probably always going to be required).

Green star adept does it too, though isn't great.

[Yogibear41]

IMO "good liches" should be deathless not undead, pretty sure that faerun book came out before deathless were a thing. Even though technically undead doesn't mean evil and deathless doesn't mean good, because positive energy isn't always good and negative energy isn't always evil, etc. etc. It seems to fit a little better IMO.

Pre epic immortality:

1. Undead
2. Deathless
3. Construct
4. Elan
5. Certain prestige classes
6. DM fiat/3rd party elixer of life type things

[sleepyphoenixx]

As per Savage Species you can use Wish to change a creature into another, with all abilities if the caster passes a DC40 spellcraft check. Just select something immortal.
Drawback is that you'll get the LA of the creature, but the same is true for Lich or similar templates.

Another option is to True Mind Switch with something immortal. Preferably when you're venerable, because you get to keep the bonus while getting rid of the penalty.
At worst it costs you 10000xp, the money for a power stone of TMS, 2 skill points for a cross-class rank of UPD and the cost of getting a few buffs cast on you so you can make the DC 37 UPD check.
If your morals prevent you from mind switching with something alive just get a construct made, use a Skin of Proteus to get around the immunity to mind-affecting and switch with that.

[ShurikVch]

"Killoren age normally through the old age category, but they never reach the venerable age category and can live indefinitely should they choose to do so." (RotW)

"Kissed by the Ages" may be 9th level necromancy, but technically not [epic] or [evil]

Also, you technically mustn't be Evil to cast [evil] spells, so Steal Life (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/steal-life--220/) and Ensul's Soultheft (http://dndtools.eu/spells/city-of-splendors-waterdeep--16/ensuls-soultheft--349/) is still an option

AFAIK, all non-native outsiders are immortal (please, correct me if I'm wrong)

Oh, and Einherjar (from Deities and Demigods) is immortal by definition

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also, you technically mustn't be Evil to cast [evil] spells, so Steal Life (http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/steal-life--220/) and Ensul's Soultheft (http://dndtools.eu/spells/city-of-splendors-waterdeep--16/ensuls-soultheft--349/) is still an option


Mechanically no, but i can't really see someone justifying casting this spell if they're not already evil. Other evil spells may be used because they're the lesser evil, the ends justify the means or whatever other reason.
You raise those zombies to defend an orphanage. You use Seething Eyebane because that Beholder is killing your friends. You cast Death by Thorns because the evil archwizard HAD TO DIE.
I can't really come up with anything that a neutral or good character could use to justify stealing someones lifeforce to prolong his own life though. If you use this your alignment is Evil, no matter what your character sheet says.

[St Fan]

Among prestige classes, I know of two that grants immortality:

Green Star Adept (Complete Arcane). At 10th level you become a living construct. There are a few drawbacks, though, making this prestige class not very popular.

Beloved of Valarian (Book of Exalted Deed). From 1st level, you have the same longevity as your unicorn companion, and unicorns live thousand of years. You must be female, good-aligned, and make a vow of chastity.

[Jeff the Green]

I did take a look at it; it seems much cooler to have than vanilla Lich, what with five phylacteries, Cha*HD to HP (and I'll be playing a DMM cleric, so Cha will be high), and all the other stuff. DR is 5 points lower, but 10 is almost as good as 15 (and they both make me immune to paper cuts :smallbiggrin:). The issue is that it takes 10 levels of Walker in the Waste to get. Unless there's some way to undergo the Sere Rite without spending 10 class levels in that PrC?

It may or may not be a bad idea, but if you can control an existing dry lich you can force it to assist you with creating the canonic jars (since multiple people can contribute prerequisite and the creator is the one contributing XP) and performing the Sere Rite.

Of course, the Dusty Enclave will be out for your blood sand. It's probably best to force your pet dry lich to tell you where his canonic jars are, destroy them, and then destroy him so he can't go tell them about you.

[ShurikVch]

I can't really come up with anything that a neutral or good character could use to justify stealing someones lifeforce to prolong his own life though. If you use this your alignment is Evil, no matter what your character sheet says. Ensul's Soultheft indeed looks too Evil - I can't just brush it off
Steal Life, however, may be still redeemable.
Say, there is a Mage, very very important for the storyline, but also really really old. How to do so he doesn't die from old age too early?
Various transformations may be risky (And the Mage himself against it. If he wished to become undead, he can did it himself, and about half-century ago. Maybe, he just doesn't want to live forever, or anxious for afterlife.)
Since we need just a little bit of time, Steal Life looks like completely suitable solution. For the single cast (on party's Barbarian) our Mage can get up to 72 weeks of life (and even more). Barbarian later will be fixed via, say, Restoration, or something like that

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ensul's Soultheft indeed looks too Evil - I can't just brush it off
Steal Life, however, may be still redeemable.
Say, there is a Mage, very very important for the storyline, but also really really old. How to do so he doesn't die from old age too early?
Various transformations may be risky (And the Mage himself against it. If he wished to become undead, he can did it himself, and about half-century ago. Maybe, he just doesn't want to live forever, or anxious for afterlife.)
Since we need just a little bit of time, Steal Life looks like completely suitable solution. For the single cast (on party's Barbarian) our Mage can get up to 72 weeks of life (and even more). Barbarian later will be fixed via, say, Restoration, or something like that

That reasoning may work (if you squint a little) but it doesn't really help when the topic is gaining immortality. Even for the situation here there's other ways to keep the guy alive a little longer that aren't evil, but i can see a party going for that if they have no other option. And a DM allowing them to not slide into evil alignment, as long as it's an exception.

The question remains though why the (allegedly non-evil) Mage knows this spell. It's not exactly something you pick up "just in case". Sure, he could be a collector. I'd be very suspicious as a player regardless. I'd also ask if he has a goatee. :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

"Kissed by the Ages" may be 9th level necromancy, but technically not [epic] or [evil]

Oooh, that's a good one! And I can just pay for a casting of it, because the spell's target is "any living creature other than yourself". It would cost about 30,000 GP, but that's not even 20% of WBL by level 15, which is around when immortality would start being worth going for (and also when I'd start encountering casters of 17th level or higher).


It may or may not be a bad idea, but if you can control an existing dry lich you can force it to assist you with creating the canopic jars (since multiple people can contribute prerequisite and the creator is the one contributing XP) and performing the Sere Rite.

Of course, the Dusty Enclave will be out for your blood sand. It's probably best to force your pet dry lich to tell you where his canonic jars are, destroy them, and then destroy him so he can't go tell them about you.

Hm. This is an interesting one, and Dry Lich has the advantage of Cha to HP, which I really like. I'll have to ask the DM about this one, though; it might need some fiat.

[Alleran]

Ensul's Soultheft indeed looks too Evil - I can't just brush it off
It should be noted that the only known person to currently make use of it limits his killing to evil spellcasters and psionicists, especially illithids.

[The Ravensong]

No one's mentioned Elementals yet, which can be acquired through Elemental Savant10, Bonded Summoner10, Winterhaunt10 and Elemental Archon10 to name a few.
Green Star Adept turns you into a construct with 5/10 spellcasting progression and 10/10 caster level progression.
Though, I see those are all in the guide that was posted.
Though, I do still love the Elan race as a path towards immortality. What do you have to do to qualify? Nothing really... but the high council has a thing for gingers.

[Forrestfire]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Necropolitan yet. One level cost, no LA, undead type and immortality.

Reincarnating yourself every 80 years or so is another fun one, too.