Fighters get 3 feats per level, what do you do?

[The Vagabond]

This is another hypothetical question, let's just say the fighter gets 3 fighter bonus feats per level, what could the folks here in the playground do with that?

[sideswipe]

unfortunately toughness cannot be taken.....

[Threadnaught]

Let me just work it out a minute. 1st and every 3rd level.

That's 67 Feats at 20th level.

This would be potentially the greatest Gestalt Class ever.

[J-H]

I'd invest in psionic feats.

[malonkey1]

I'd get the feats I need for an ubercharger build, then use Dark Chaos Shuffle on the rest for much profit. Including Leadership, and then do the same with them, Leadership all the way down. ALL THE FOLLOWERS.

[Hyena]

Pick up a lot of martial studies and pretend to be actually good class from ToB.

[Red Fel]

This is another hypothetical question, let's just say the fighter gets 3 fighter bonus feats per level, what could the folks here in the playground do with that?

Run out of feats. Seriously, I remember somebody compiling a list of Fighter bonus feats, and there just plain aren't all that many. (After a quick database query, I've picked up about 226, but some of those are duplicates, and some are 3.0.) And even with all that, you still couldn't fly, or teleport, or become immune to X, or what-have-you. Your utility remains almost exclusively combat-based. (Which is, admittedly, what you'd expect of a class called Fighter.)

Basically, at best, you could get Fighter somewhere into Tier 3; good at combat, not much else. Even assuming Fighter got every possible Fighter bonus feat, it wouldn't be gamebreaking; he'd simply be rather good at combat, mostly of the melee variety.


Pick up a lot of martial studies and pretend to me actually good class from ToB.

Three. You can pick up three Martial Study feats. The feat language limits you to 3 times.

[Rebel7284]

Pick up a lot of martial studies and pretend to me actually good class from ToB.

Martial Study has this line:

Special
You can take this feat up to three times.

I expect such a character would have a fair amount of tactical feats, being able to get a few charge multipliers, a few AOO enablers, extra attacks from the cleave line, and weapon supremacy line. Of course getting the 3 maneuvers and 3 stances is nice too!

[Stella]

Run out of feats. Seriously, I remember somebody compiling a list of Fighter bonus feats, and there just plain aren't all that many.
Not seriously. It is impossible to run out of unique places to spend your many Feats in this scenario (or any similar one).

Fighter Bonus Feats include a great many feats such as Weapon Focus with text similar to "You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon."

And the number of distinct weapons is far, far greater than 67.

Sure, taking Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization/Exotic Weapon Proficiency on more than 3-4 different weapons might not be terribly exciting, but there is absolutely no validity to any claim that the Fighter will simply run out of places to spend her Feats. And you can end up with a Fighter who is actually good with, say, Unarmed Strike as well as a big two-hander and a missile weapon. And might still find themselves having to make some hard choices for their remaining Feats.

[Threadnaught]

And the number of distinct weapons is far, far greater than 67.

To be fair, the 7 Feats are the Feats everyone gets with HD and an Intelligence Score.

Not that it actually matters all that much, since I'd love to Gestalt this with anything and shuffle them all into something the other half of the Gestalt would really benefit from.
At any given level, it's more likely that you'd run out of Feats to pick from, than it is you'd run out of Feat slots. If you planned it out.

[OldTrees1]

Not seriously. It is impossible to run out of unique places to spend your many Feats in this scenario (or any similar one).


But the number of worthy fighter bonus feats is south of 60.

But what I do is ask the DM to treat all martial combat feats as fighter bonus feats.

[ericgrau]

Normally I'd say you can never have enough feats and you need to consider number of feats at lower levels not level 20... but at 3 per level there are only so many decent fighter bonus feats even by mid level. And the higher up you go in optimization the smaller that number becomes. I think everyone would dip fighter for the first few levels and then stop. If you're serious you may want to make this 1 fighter bonus feat plus 2 any-feats. If you want to require that the any-feats be fighter-ish that's fine.

Even then it would break low optimization games while still being insufficient to keep up with high optimization. But as long as your group has some beyond-casual optimization and you don't mind every single non-caster in your group taking some fighter levels, it should work out fine. You may see dips or fighter 20 or anything in between.

[Stella]

But the number of worthy fighter bonus feats is south of 60.
Sure, but that problem wasn't caused by this house rule/hypothetical scenario nor does it in any way make things worse than they are in the Fighter rules as they stand. It is also a matter of opinion on which there will probably never be any agreement on a list of "worthy" or "unworthy" Fighter bonus Feats.

I simply refuted the inaccurate claim that a Fighter would run out of places to park their Feats in this scenario. That false claim doesn't become any more accurate just because some people might believe that a Fighter who takes more than one chain of Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization (for example) isn't getting any real value. Others might disagree, and see that the Fighter has eliminated a limitation by removing the dependence upon one specific weapon type in order to deal effective damage.

[OldTrees1]

Sure, but that problem wasn't caused by this house rule/hypothetical scenario nor does it in any way make things worse than they are in the Fighter rules as they stand. It is also a matter of opinion on which there will probably never be any agreement on a list of "worthy" or "unworthy" Fighter bonus Feats.

I simply refuted the inaccurate claim that a Fighter would run out of places to park their Feats in this scenario. That false claim doesn't become any more accurate just because some people might believe that a Fighter who takes more than one chain of Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization (for example) isn't getting any real value. Others might disagree, and see that the Fighter has eliminated a limitation by removing the dependence upon one specific weapon type in order to deal effective damage.
You misread what Red Fel said. He said they would run out of feats and that the number of Fighter Feats is north of 60. Obviously "run out of feats" was not intended as "be unable to select feats" but rather meant "run out of worthy feats"/

[dextercorvia]

I would build something that uses Stunning Fist, Rapid Stunning, and Extra Stunning, and Pharaoh's Fist. If playing at low levels, I'd dip one level of Monk at 1st level to grab Stunning Fist without waiting until level 8.

I'd use my regular feats on Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach, Starspawn, and things like Pain touch.

Would it be optimal? No, but it would be fun. I'd have plenty of feats left over for Chain Tripping, and Ubercharging when my schtick doesn't work.

[ericgrau]

It is true that more feats would never be a bad thing and even the measliest of feats on top of 50 others would still be worth something. Whether by small added power or by adding options. That still only means all non-caster builds would auto-dip fighter for X levels and then switch. It's extremely front-loaded so that's why I suggested expanding the selection so that it's not as front-loaded. Power keeps increasing no matter how many feats you give out. But the number of dip levels doesn't necessarily increase as much because the more feats you get the less the leftover ones are worth. It's not negative return nor ever worthless, but it is diminishing return. Increasing the feats per level only makes the dip more essential.

If you can make it work I agree it would be fine. But like I said be careful about breaking low op games, and be careful about losing options in higher op games where there are a more limited number of "good" feats. As long as non-fighterish-PCs aren't over-optimizing you may even ban the cheesiest ones to make the rest of the feats more similar in power.

[Flickerdart]

There are more than just feat slot limits that restrict fighter usefulness. Ability score prerequisites and non-feat investment in fighting styles (good luck tripping without size increases, or shooting without an expensive bow and arrows) heavily restrict what an individual character is capable of doing.

[ericgrau]

Even without any feat investment you can trip or disarm a kobold pretty easily. There are less opportunities for each feat without it being the focus but there are still opportunities. Just like you don't need greater spell focus in every school to want to use every school. Or some higher optimized casting boosting feats if you build better than that. Those with fell drain won't only use fell drain applicable spells, etc.

[Flickerdart]

Even without any feat investment you can trip or disarm a kobold pretty easily.
Oh, sure - this will be a fairly powerful character in the early game. But it will become less and less useful at exactly the same pace as normal fighters, because all of its tricks will more or less start to fail at once.

If combat maneuvers worked like spells and didn't basically all target Strength, there would be even some use in having available styles later in the game, in the same way that a wizard with low spell DCs can focus on a weak save. But unlike fighter feats, wizard spells scale properly without needing spell-dedicated investment. The wizard can still learn gate and time stop and shapechange without needing to divide his WBL between a staff of summoning and a wand of time control and a pointy hat of morphing.

[Coidzor]

Well, by the time it was time to multiclass/PrC out of Fighter between level 5 and 10, you'd have the ability to have invested in 2 or 3 different combat styles, I suppose. So you could be a lock-down build and an ubercharger and maybe even manage in ranged situations where charging wasn't effective. So there's that.

Basically makes there be almost no trade-off to going Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher Thug Fighter, I think.

Makes dipping 3 levels of Fighter potentially viable due to Fighter 3 no longer being a dead level, but 1 or 2 levels should shore up most of the Fighter Bonus Feats one would want in a build anyway anyway.

[Stella]

Even without any feat investment you can trip or disarm a kobold pretty easily.
Oh, sure - this will be a fairly powerful character in the early game. But it will become less and less useful at exactly the same pace as normal fighters, because all of its tricks will more or less start to fail at once.

The difference being that with more Feats the Fighter can specialize in tripping or disarming while still being able to take Combat Reflexes, Power Attack and Weapon Focus. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack and Weapon Focus never "fail at once", and that leaves using the Feats invested in Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Exotic Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain) still viable against all the opponents where this Feat chain also never fails, which is essentially every M sized opponent without some extraordinary stability ability (say the last three words five times fast...). Tripping only loses a lot of its functionality when you're fighting creatures who are both very strong and also very large, or which are strong and large and have stability bonuses (4 legs, for example). Your typical M sized opponent may be very strong or dexterous, but the Feats give you bonuses against this eventuality, and you're supposed to be strong yourself as a Fighter.


It is true that more feats would never be a bad thing and even the measliest of feats on top of 50 others would still be worth something. Whether by small added power or by adding options. That still only means all non-caster builds would auto-dip fighter for X levels and then switch. It's extremely front-loaded so that's why I suggested expanding the selection so that it's not as front-loaded.

Agreed, front loading the Fighter class even more than it is already is not a good design idea. I made an attempt at bringing up the tier level of the non-casting classes by giving them all more Feats and Skill points, and also expanding the class skill lists for most of them. Oh, and giving the Monk a D10 Hit Die. But my Fighter changes only added Feats for levels past 2nd, which would still allow people to take the standard sub-standard "2 level dip" in Fighter for those character concepts which needed the extra Feats, while still leaving the single classed Fighter something to call their own. But I also pulled options away from the casting classes in order to make an attempt to "flatten the curve" between the casting and non-casting classes. I'd be pretty happy with a system in which all classes were judged to be Tier2/3.

The problem I see with most attempts to fix/balance the classes in D&D 3.5 is that most people seem to take the approach of adding things to the lower Tier classes, while what is really needed is to severely curtail the power of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes. And reducing the power of the T1/2 classes seems to be some kind of religious issue which not many people are willing to even consider entertaining. Which means that they will always fail to obtain class balance, even if they manage to tweak the T4 and T5 classes up to somewhere around T3 or 4. There is simply too great a power gap between Tier 1 and Tier 3, and it only grows by leaps and bounds as the comparison becomes T1 vs. T4 or T1 vs. T5.

[Flickerdart]

The difference being that with more Feats the Fighter can specialize in tripping or disarming while still being able to take Combat Reflexes, Power Attack and Weapon Focus. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack and Weapon Focus never "fail at once", and that leaves using the Feats invested in Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Exotic Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain) still viable against all the opponents where this Feat chain also never fails, which is essentially every M sized opponent without some extraordinary stability ability (say the last three words five times fast...). Tripping only loses a lot of its functionality when you're fighting creatures who are both very strong and also very large, or which are strong and large and have stability bonuses (4 legs, for example). Your typical M sized opponent may be very strong or dexterous, but the Feats give you bonuses against this eventuality, and you're supposed to be strong yourself as a Fighter.
You might be surprised to find out that creatures that are big also tend to be strong, and the fact that size increases directly add to Strength doesn't really change that.

As for the listed feats, the fighter can already take all of those. Anyone else could, too - that's only six feats.

[OldTrees1]

Now I feel compelled to start listing the maximum number of Fighter Bonus feats I would use. (list not created in order, each feat is only listed once)

Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Backstab, Robilar's Gambit, Dodge, Karmic Strike

Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain), Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Awl Pike)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Dire Flail), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting(item preferably), Double Hit, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus Dire Flail, Dire Flail Smash

Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Shock Trooper

Improved Unarmed Strike(to be used with Snap Kick), Stunning Fist, Extra Stunning, Pharaoh's Fist

Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Awareness

Blindfight, Hear the Unseen

Improved Initiative

So 32 feats

[Stella]

You might be surprised to find out that creatures that are big also tend to be strong, and the fact that size increases directly add to Strength doesn't really change that.
And you might be surprised to find out that no, I really wouldn't be surprised at all. I've played a Fighter who took the Feat chains for Disarm and Tripping, and while the opponent types I already specifically mentioned did make the special attacks much more difficult to succeed with, I never lost my capability to simply Power Attack for damage.

And, as I also said, there were always plenty of opportunities to Trip or Disarm all those size S or M opponents who generally had a disadvantage against my special maneuvers due to my higher Strength over their Strength/Dex, plus the Feat bonus I received, plus with Disarm a weapon bonus as well.

I suppose that the fact that I never found my Trip and Disarm Feats to be completely useless might be considered to be campaign dependent, but the flip side is also true: A campaign in which these Feat chains are completely marginalized is also quite campaign dependent. If I were playing in a campaign called "Against the Fire Giants" I might think twice about those feats, but in any game I've played in those Feat chains were solid choices for any player who wanted to take them. Not in every encounter, because you do fight Fire Giants on occasion, but a Feat doesn't have to be "always on" in order to be a valuable addition to the character.

[Theomniadept]

The Fighter might actually be viable in this way. With essentially free feats he can take all the generic stuff (Improved Initiative, Improved Tougness, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip/Disarm/Sunder, Dash), all the ranged combat feats (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.), all the melee feats (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper), exotic proficiency in the Greatbow and a melee weapon (spiked chain is the favorite but I prefer Dwarven Warpike but that's gotten for free if you play a dwarf and toss out the useless urgrosh proficiency), and that's not counting Martial Study feats (if limited to three then it's still three well worth taking). It would make him a jack-of-all trades instead of a one-trick pony who can't do his one trick as well as other one-trick ponies.

[Coidzor]

Does Thug lose 1 feat from the first level or does it lose all 3 first level feats?

Similarly does Dungeoncrasher give up 1 feat for each level of the Dungeoncrashing or does it give up all of the feats for the two levels it covers?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Come on, if you want to fix the fighter, allow him to take any and all feats, not just fighter bonus feats. Once you do that, he becomes an actually decent class at high levels for that number of feats. Otherwise, he still sucks beyond 10th level or so.

[Aquillion]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain), Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Awl Pike), Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Dire Flail)If you're going to take multiple Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, you'd be better off just taking a level in Master of Masks to get the Gladiator Mask, which gives you proficiency with all Exotic Weapons in just one level. While every other part of that class sucks, there's enough situationally-useful exotic weapons out there to make it well worth your time.

[Karnith]

Now I feel compelled to start listing the maximum number of Fighter Bonus feats I would use. (list not created in order, each feat is only listed once)
Note that several of the feats you have listed are not actually Fighter bonus feats (even though they probably ought to be - always a problem with combat-focused feats) - namely Evasive Reflexes, Extra Stunning, Hear the Unseen, and Karmic Strike.

[The Vagabond]

Does Thug lose 1 feat from the first level or does it lose all 3 first level feats?

Similarly does Dungeoncrasher give up 1 feat for each level of the Dungeoncrashing or does it give up all of the feats for the two levels it covers?

All the feats, would be my estimate as how it was meant to be made.

[OldTrees1]

If you're going to take multiple Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, you'd be better off just taking a level in Master of Masks to get the Gladiator Mask, which gives you proficiency with Exotic Weapons. While every other part of that class sucks, there's enough situationally-useful exotic weapons out there to make it well worth your time.


Note that several of the feats you have listed are not actually Fighter bonus feats (even though they probably ought to be - always a problem with combat-focused feats) - namely Evasive Reflexes, Extra Stunning, Hear the Unseen, and Karmic Strike.

Oops. Those were mislabeled in the document I was going through. To be fair I also Forgot Martial Study x3 and Martial Stance

[ericgrau]

Oh, sure - this will be a fairly powerful character in the early game. But it will become less and less useful at exactly the same pace as normal fighters, because all of its tricks will more or less start to fail at once.
Small and medium creatures continue to exist at high levels. May not be all of them, but the point is that the option is there when they are. Disarming in particular has massive situational bonuses and penalties. It is the epitome of being useless when it can't be used and therefore often not taken, yet incredibly easy to succeed on when it can be used and so wonderful to take when you have a bajillion feats. And when you face something else, you have a different ability.

Plus potions of enlarge person are cheap and all you need are those, the feat, and the strength you have anyway to take on huge creatures. I've checked over the numbers before. The only difference is that a high level specialist might get permanent enlargement. But large size is useful for so many things for high level melee, you might get permanent enlargement that even on a generalist.



The problem I see with most attempts to fix/balance the classes in D&D 3.5 is that most people seem to take the approach of adding things to the lower Tier classes, while what is really needed is to severely curtail the power of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes. And reducing the power of the T1/2 classes seems to be some kind of religious issue which not many people are willing to even consider entertaining. Which means that they will always fail to obtain class balance, even if they manage to tweak the T4 and T5 classes up to somewhere around T3 or 4. There is simply too great a power gap between Tier 1 and Tier 3, and it only grows by leaps and bounds as the comparison becomes T1 vs. T4 or T1 vs. T5.
The main issue I have with that is that often options = fun, and the caster classes tend to have more options. So you're often taking away the fun of the game in an attempt at balance. My prefered method is simple casual play and there the power tends not to get out of hand. Then the only issue is that melee tends to be boring. There are special attacks they can use to add options, but they tend to be complicated. I think I might take a middle ground of making existing options easier to understand for melee, giving out a variety of magic items up to full WBL, and/or adding some additional options. Rather than stripping options from casters I'd give a minor power hit if they became too popular; a level or two lost. It won't fix broken high optimization caster tricks at all, but I don't expect to play with those at all. In fact with most casual players, especially rookies, I wouldn't even do anything to casters.

So if done right adding more feats could be nice for a very experienced group, as its not too much power for them and you force the player to diversify. Just watch out for all the stackable +X feats and front-loading as discussed.

[ben-zayb]

Am I the only one who thought of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335680-The-Bonus-Feat-PEACH-BASE)?

[The Insanity]

I'm more interested in how powerful would a Fighter be if he'd get the effects of every combat/fighter bonus feat as soon as he'd meet its requirements.

[OldTrees1]

I'm more interested in how powerful would a Fighter be if he'd get the effects of every combat/fighter bonus feat as soon as he'd meet its requirements.

A quite powerful Tier 4 character. A Thug Fighter with a decent Int would be Tier 3.

[Lord Haart]

Dip it.


…You mean, in a pure Fighter build? Ah, can you take Improved Toughness many times? If so, it could be somewhat fun to play a normal fighter with dozens of hit points per level.

[Lans]

A quite powerful Tier 4 character. A Thug Fighter with a decent Int would be Tier 3.

It would probably be T3 due to ToB and being free to spend his level based resources on other utility.

If the other martial characters have to spend 3 feats on Shock trooper, and you don't, then you can pick up something like the binding feats, or devotion or something


What Fighter bonus feats are useful out of combat? I can think of Martial Study/Stance, Pole Vaulter and I think Specteral Skirmisher. I think there was another one.


But the number of worthy fighter bonus feats is south of 60.

But what I do is ask the DM to treat all martial combat feats as fighter bonus feats.




Now I feel compelled to start listing the maximum number of Fighter Bonus feats I would use. (list not created in order, each feat is only listed once)

Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Backstab, Robilar's Gambit, Dodge, Karmic Strike

Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain), Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Awl Pike)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Dire Flail), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting(item preferably), Double Hit, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus Dire Flail, Dire Flail Smash

Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Shock Trooper

Improved Unarmed Strike(to be used with Snap Kick), Stunning Fist, Extra Stunning, Pharaoh's Fist

Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Awareness

Blindfight, Hear the Unseen

Improved Initiative

So 32 feats
The number is higher than that

Off of my head exotic weapon proficiency boomerang, if your a halfling or drow you can add Boomerang Daze, and Ricochet to that.

From there you can add weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, specialization, far shot, quick draw, rapid shot, pbs, ranged weapon mastery, and supremacy in the boomerang, and Brutal Throw. Maybe Power Throw, and Hurling Charge. Shock Trooper

Close Quarters Fighting

Hammer and Piton for a touch attack

Combat Intuition

Aquatic Shot, aquatic longbow proficiency

Shield Ward
Driving Attack
Grenadier, Mad Alchemist

You chose dire flail smash, so would shield slam be worthy to you? Thats another 3 feats to get that.
There isn't a cap on how many times you can take the stance feat

So, thats 61, add in ACFs and you should be able to hit 60. Or just taking martial stance an extra 5 or 6 times.

[OldTrees1]

You chose dire flail smash, so would shield slam be worthy to you? Thats another 3 feats to get that.
There isn't a cap on how many times you can take the stance feat

So, thats 61, add in ACFs and you should be able to hit 60. Or just taking martial stance an extra 5 or 6 times.

Yes but you only need to take "Daze on attack" once since they don't stack. Although the Boomerang one would save some gold/prestige class levels

[Lans]

Yes but you only need to take "Daze on attack" once since they don't stack. Although the Boomerang one would save some gold/prestige class levels

There are different uses on them though

Dire Flail Smash can be used on a standard action attack

Boomerang Daze on ranged

Shield Slam on a charge, though the DFS could be done on a charge with with TW Pounce.

I would take the boomerang and one of the others. I was going towards Shield Slam due to it being less feat intensive, but on second thought I don't like being so devoted towards charging.

As for Martial Stance there is no limit on how many times you can do it, but the most you can get access to is 3 disciplines.

Desert Wind
Devoted Spirit-Martial Spirit, Iron Guards Glare, Thicket of Blades
Diamond Mind-Hearing the Air
Iron Heart- Punishing Stance, Abolute Steel
Setting Sun-Step of the Wind, Shifting Defense
Shadow Hand-Island of Blades, Child of Shadow, Assassins, Dance of Spider, Step of the Dancing Moth
Stone Dragon-
Tiger Claw-Hunters Sense, Blood Water, Leaping Dragon
White Raven-Bolstering Voice, Press the Advantage

Looks like you could use it for about 10 stances,

[OldTrees1]

There are different uses on them though

Dire Flail Smash can be used on a standard action attack

Boomerang Daze on ranged

Shield Slam on a charge, though the DFS could be done on a charge with with TW Pounce.

I would take the boomerang and one of the others. I was going towards Shield Slam due to it being less feat intensive, but on second thought I don't like being so devoted towards charging.


DFS does require some form of a pounce(Barbarian 1, Sudden Leap, the Pounce Manuever or TW Pounce?) to be used on a charge, but can be used on an AoO without expending an additional AoO.

However a Boomerang and a Shield can be equipped simultaneously.

[Lans]

Another thing about boomerang daze is that its DC is 10+damage, which can get crazy, fast.


But the main point is that there is enough feats for a fighter that are decent, but it is a stretch, and a lot of people will wind up taking the weapon focus line for something other than boomerangs or standstill