Bard: Why?

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Can someone, anyone, explain to me why the Bard is finally given 9th level spells but his list has a total of 4 which is fine I guess but... why can he only ever learn 22 spells?

[Fwiffo86]

Can someone, anyone, explain to me why the Bard is finally given 9th level spells but his list has a total of 4 which is fine I guess but... why can he only ever learn 22 spells?

Because he isn't a wizard. Really. It is that simple.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

He has almost the same spell slots as the Wizard and he knows more spells then the Sorcerer.

[Fwiffo86]

The amount of magic channeling (slots available) is less important that the breadth of knowledge. The Wizard, who focuses on magic primarily, has a larger pool of spells to select from, thus the larger list.

The bard conversely is knowledgeable about skills, armor, weapons, and providing inspiration to others. This cuts into his default breadth of knowledge (smaller list), but he does get to poach spells from other lists the wizard does not.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Bard has 4 known Cantrips and 22 Spells Known (26) 3.5 is 35
Sorcerer has 6 known Cantrips and 15 spells known (21) 3.5 is 43

I am confused why. Also why such a small number of spells known? I mean I get it that 5e is suppose to be streamlined and less of a hassle but that shouldn't mean removing so much from them. Bards in 3.5 had 35 spells known by level 20. This seems like an odd drop off.

[randomodo]

I think the general consensus is that the net level of power and coolness for 5e bards is notably above that of 3.5 bards. I realize that opinions about classes are a very personal matter based on expectations and desire, but I truly don't see much to complain about regarding either a bard's spell selection or overall power level.

A great deal of magic design was, I think, influenced by cantrip changes between 3.5 and today. With cantrips being permanent at-will abilities rather than one-shot spells, that provided justification to reduce the number of spell slots for casters across the board (while increasing other caster abilities).

[Nerdtothe3rd]

I like the bard, this is an improvement for sure. But I was just confused with such a drastic spell known cut, as well as their skills.

[CyberThread]

Am sure some sort of math was involved.

The bard has a very focused spell list. An class abilities that help others instead of him.

The bard gets the resources of a sorcer without the boosting power of meta magic. An while some abuse can be had picking spells from the half caster list it doesn't gain the wizards abuse.


Also to consider. .almost none of the spells do damage. A sorcerer or wizard could kill folks with a fireball. You have crowd contRol making you need another to actually do the stabbing.

[Person_Man]

Bards can cherry pick the very best spells from any list. This includes getting 5th level Paladin or Ranger spells (which they cast at level 17) at 10th level. They'll also get the best options from all spells printed in any splat book. And they get Expertise (presumably for Stealth and Perception or a social Skill), weapons (including a second attack if they prefer it over more spells), and large floating bonuses to almost anything for their allies. For these reasons the general consensus is that Bards are probably the most powerful class in the game.

[Beige]

the wizard is the focused magic scholar - he knows the most spells, because thats what he does, and what he has dedicated his life to. he has the most choice because he can learn pretty much anything

the sorceror gets the least number of non-free spells but the most free ones, but his spells are the most powerful, because unlike everyone else his magic is natural and a part of him - it's not something he learnt, it's something he is. so less flexibile but more potent

the bard's magic is learnt like the wizards, but less focused, and it's nature comes from the song - it comes from symphony and harmony, the tune to inspire and manipulate, and thus his magic follows the same nature; it inspires, or confuses, it creatures emotions, and it by it's very nature, harmonizes and supports others

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Its gets the Power Word Kill and the like on its list, as well as True Polymorph

[DrLemniscate]

Its gets the Power Word Kill and the like on its list, as well as True Polymorph

As well as any other spell. They can learn two spells from any class at some select levels. This gives them access to 2 more 9th level spells. It also gives them the half-caster classes' 5th level spells much much earlier, which can represent a big power jump.

I feel like Wish should be on their list anyway, but they can just learn it at 18.

[Nerdtothe3rd]

Ok well I was just going off what in the back of the book is listed as the Bard's spell list. The ability to garbage dive for better spells earlier just makes me more confused. I mean it just came off as a reaction of "wtf, the bard has more spells then the Sorcerer." which is what this was a reaction thread. I was just confused why it came off as so strong when normally the Bard is well... inferior to virtually every other spellcaster, as the jack of all trades he is inferior to all those who specialize.

[Speaker]

Why is a brd even a spellcaster? Can anyone explain this too me?

[CyberThread]

Why is a brd even a spellcaster? Can anyone explain this too me?

Because it has been since atleast 2nd edition. Bards are magical.

[Lokiare]

Am sure some sort of math was involved...

Really? Because I got the impression almost no math was involved and they just kind of threw ideas at the wall and whatever they thought sounded cool got in. That's my impression.


Why is a brd even a spellcaster? Can anyone explain this too me?

Because in early D&D you had two kinds of effects: Mundane effects and magical effects. In early D&D mundane effects were always represented as a dice roll for an attack or a bonus to a check. Magical effects were always represented as spells unless they were on monsters, and even then a lot of them were spells.

So we have "because tradition" rearing its ugly head.

Instead of progressing the design forward and doing a guitar hero style bard where they keep up the tempo of their songs by taking specific actions to grant effects, they instead said, screw it, give it spells.

I mean they could have had different performance types like a Battle Dancer that has to follow these actions for this dance:

Dance of the Blade
Round 1: If you shift you and all allies that can see you gain advantage on their next save.
Round 2: If you attack an adjacent enemy you and all allies that can see you gain advantage to their next attack roll.
Round 3: If you move and don't shift you and all allies that can see you gain an additional 10 feet of movement on their next turn.
Repeat.

Even better might be something like this:
Dance of the Raging Bull
Each round of combat you can choose these sets of actions and gain the bonuses described. You can perform the actions even if they require more actions than you are normally allowed unless you are somehow prevented, for instance if you have a condition that prevents attacking or moving. If you don't take the actions in the exact order or are prevented from finishing all actions you lose all the bonuses.

Shift 5 feet, make an attack against an adjacent enemy with no bonuses for ability scores, shift 5 feet in the opposite direction from your last shift, then make another attack against an adjacent enemy with no bonuses for ability scores. Your next attack gains +1d6 damage for each target you hit.
Move 10 feet in a straight line, make a bull rush against an adjacent enemy, Move 10 feet parallel in a straight line, make an attack against an adjacent enemy with advantage.
Charge one enemy making an attack, deal 1d6 damage with the attack, shift 5 feet, charge another enemy in the opposite direction making an attack, deal 1d6 damage with the attack or 2d6 damage if you hit with the previous charge attack.


A singer might have this kind of song:

Song of the Weeping Widow
While you are singing this song you are considered to be concentrating. If your concentration is interrupted all effects of the song end. Each round you can choose to use one of the following effects as a bonus action:

grant advantage on attack to one ally that can hear you or yourself
grant an ally that can hear you advantage on their next saving throw
grant an enemy that can hear you disadvantage on a saving throw
grant an enemy that can hear you disadvantage on their next attack roll.

Round 1: If you grant advantage on an attack to an ally that is not adjacent to you, then you can grant advantage to one more ally that can hear you.
Round 2: If you grant an enemy adjacent to one of your allies disadvantage on their next attack roll, you can grant the adjacent ally advantage on their next attack against the enemy if they can hear you.
Round 3: If you grant an ally adjacent to you advantage on their next saving throw, you can also grant an enemy that can hear you and is adjacent to you disadvantage on their next saving throw.
Round 4: If you grant advantage to an allies next saving throw and they are adjacent to you, you can grant advantage to another ally that can hear you on their next saving throw.
Repeat.

Of course they missed out on this by just saying "don't think about it, tradition remember, just give them spells."

[Beige]

Why is a brd even a spellcaster? Can anyone explain this too me?

because music is magic :smallbiggrin:

[CyberThread]

Also remember this edition is about simplicity. Easier to slap it to a spell system then create an entire new system for one class.

[Lokiare]

Also remember this edition is about simplicity. Easier to slap it to a spell system then create an entire new system for one class.

Except they already broke that for the Cleric (channel divinity), Warlock (invocations), and Sorcerer (sorcery points). So uh why again?

[cobaltstarfire]

Bard has 4 known Cantrips and 22 Spells Known (26) 3.5 is 35
Sorcerer has 6 known Cantrips and 15 spells known (21) 3.5 is 43

I am confused why. Also why such a small number of spells known? I mean I get it that 5e is suppose to be streamlined and less of a hassle but that shouldn't mean removing so much from them. Bards in 3.5 had 35 spells known by level 20. This seems like an odd drop off.

Part of that is might be because some spells got folded into each other. Some of the 3.5 spells are just improved versions of lower level spells, now instead you get to cast certain spells in higher level slots to improve them.

[CyberThread]

Except they already broke that for the Cleric (channel divinity), Warlock (invocations), and Sorcerer (sorcery points). So uh why again?

Those manipulate an already established spell system. How much unique options would you need. To give that would replicate the value of all those spells without ever using spells?

[Lokiare]

Those manipulate an already established spell system. How much unique options would you need. To give that would replicate the value of all those spells without ever using spells?

Potentially you wouldn't need to replicate spells with the bard. Look at my examples. You could do wild and interesting things that have nothing to do with magic.

[CyberThread]

Potentially you wouldn't need to replicate spells with the bard. Look at my examples. You could do wild and interesting things that have nothing to do with magic.

Dont they essentially already do that by forcing a bard to use an instrument as a magical focus?

Just as someone who has been focused on fluff lately. It seems you want to go about it the hard way , when rp wise they are directly the same.


I play an instrument and something happens.

[randomodo]

As an aside, I remember playing an old 2nd Edition campaign back a million years ago, and due to the variances in XP required to level between classes, at (I think) 3,000 XP, a bard was hitting level 3 and a wizard was hitting level 2. They would thus have the same amount of spells per day.

Our party wizard was a bit displeased to realize that.

[Lokiare]

Dont they essentially already do that by forcing a bard to use an instrument as a magical focus?

Just as someone who has been focused on fluff lately. It seems you want to go about it the hard way , when rp wise they are directly the same.


I play an instrument and something happens.

Nope. The underlying theme of what I posted was that the bard has to do something specific to gain a bonus each round. If they don't do that thing they don't get that bonus and since bardic music in my examples is not magic it can't be countered by things that counter magic.

[eastmabl]

Why is a brd even a spellcaster? Can anyone explain this too me?

I believe the original bard was a multi classed druid, rogue and (maybe) fighter. He's always had spells.

[Fwiffo86]

I believe the original bard was a multi classed druid, rogue and (maybe) fighter. He's always had spells.

Original bard went something like this: (1e)

Human. (must meet all class change requirements)
Start as fighter. At level 5 - 7 change class to rogue.
Level as rogue till 7-9, change class to druid
You are technically now a "bard"

Benefits:
All fighter combat options and multiple attacks
All rogue skills, backstab
Magic User spells up to 2nd tier
Druid shapechange
Druid spells up to 3rd tier
Charm person - unlimited use by had % chance of success
Additional languages basically 2/3 levels
1.5x effect from any magical musical instrument (pipes of the sewers summoned 150 rats instead of 100)

I think cancelling music based effects was also in there but I don't remember clearly.

[12owlbears]

stuff

Wow that sounds waaaaaay to complex and un-intuitive. I don't even like to whole bards are now full spell-casters thing but compared to that I'll take it. How would doing random actions improve you tempo that makes no sense. Also I don't like guitar hero -1 for mentioning it

[Shadow]

Original bard went something like this: (1e)

Human. (must meet all class change requirements)
Start as fighter. At level 5 - 7 change class to rogue.
Level as rogue till 7-9, change class to druid
You are technically now a "bard"

Benefits:
All fighter combat options and multiple attacks
All rogue skills, backstab
Magic User spells up to 2nd tier
Druid shapechange
Druid spells up to 3rd tier
Charm person - unlimited use by had % chance of success
Additional languages basically 2/3 levels
1.5x effect from any magical musical instrument (pipes of the sewers summoned 150 rats instead of 100)

I think cancelling music based effects was also in there but I don't remember clearly.
When you started again as a rogue, you leveled rogue again from 1st level (on the xp chart) You couldn't use any abilities or proficiencies you gained as a fighter at all until you gained an equivalent level in rogue. If you did, no xp for the encounter. At all.
You basically became a 1st level rogue with a bunch more HP.
Same goes for druid, but now with respect to both fighter and rogue.
Then, when you finally reached an equivalent level in druid, you actually became a bard and could use anyhting from any class that you'd attained.

If I remember correctly.