Swordsage dex based

[m149307]

Is it possible to make a decent Dex based swordsage with a strongheart halfling? And if so, what is a good way to start a build for such a character (like the first couple of levels)?

[BowStreetRunner]

I would say definitely yes, this is workable. Taking Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade you can get DEX to both Attack and Damage with a Shadow Hand weapon like Shortsword.

[m149307]

Ok, so I would be focusing on the shadow hand manuvers?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not necesarilly, but you do have to have at least 1 Shadow Hand Stance (most probably Assassin's stance which is one of the best combat stances any how).

[m149307]

Ok, what are other good ones to take? Also, I heard there is a feat to help the recovery mechanic of this class... anyone know it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The feat would be adaptive style, sadly a feat tax for Swordsages (unless you are simply dipping it)

[m149307]

Eh, the strongheart halfling bonus feat can cover it. Thanks.

[Darrin]

Swordsage 20
Feats:
1st) TWF, Shadow Blade
2nd) Weapon Focus
3rd) Weapon Finesse
6th) Adaptive Style
9th) Improved TWF
12th) Combat Reflexes
15th) Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook)
18th) Greater TWF

[m149307]

And which stats matter, besides dex and con?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Since Shadow Blade doesn't replace str to damage but adds to it I suggest having at least 10 str if possible, though depending on stat generation it might not be possible, an 8 isn't bad though. Other than that some class feature depend on wisdom, but nothing major so you should be fine with a 14. I like skill points so I'm biased and I would tell you to go high int but again a 10 or even an 8 should be fine. You can safely dump charisma, Swordsages don't get anything that benefit from high charisma.

[Val666]

Most of Swordsage abilities are Wisdom based. The extra AC, Saves, Extra damage etc..

Int would also be a good stat, since Swordsages are wonderful skill monkeys

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can also dip a level of Fighter with the Hit&Run ACF (DoTU) to add Dex to damage again (and increased initiative).

[Daishain]

Well, there are basically three favorable routes you can go with Swordsage. Two handed, two weapon, and spiked chain. The class WOULD lend itself well to an archery build if it wasn't for the annoying fact that TOB maneuvers are pretty much all limited to melee.

Your ability priority would likely be Dex=Wis>Con>Int>Str>Cha

Two handed will miss out if you dump strength in favor of Dex, so lets leave that off the table.

Two weapon fighting is a bit feat hungry. But grab some kukris, invest in the Tumble skill and focus on the Tiger Claw Discipline with some Desert Wind mixed in. Make sure to pick up weapon finesse and improved weapon finesse at level 1 and level 6 respectively. You will also need to look into the TWF feats in order to shrink those to-hit penalties down to something more reasonable.

Spiked Chain is a great weapon. The only weapon that is finessable, has reach, AND can strike adjacent foes. Its ability to make free trip and disarm attacks at range just make it ridiculous. Again, pick up the weapon finesse feats. Tack on exotic weapon proficiency for the spiked chain. For disciplines, this time you may wish to snag stuff from Diamond Mind, shadow hand, and/or desert wind depending on preferences. Also make sure to pick up combat expertise for the extra AoOs. This kind of build can very easily dodge his way to a particular location, and make everyone in the area very much regret being there.

Some dip options:

Give up all forms of armor (you're basically limited to light armor anyways), dip 1 level of druid with the deadly hunter ACF, Gain your wisdom bonus to AC, favored enemy, swift tracker, an animal companion, some spells, and track feats. You would also get a bonus to movement and additional AC from the ACF, but would have to keep going in druid for it to begin to take effect

At ECL 7, pick up Crusader for 2 levels. Or 1 level of Crusader at ECL 9. Because of the way TOB classes work when multiclassing, you would count as a level 4 and then 5 crusader for the sake of picking out maneuvers and stances, which along with a boatload of useful maneuvers to keep you alive, will let you get the thicket of blades stance, which is freaking insane for anyone focused on making attacks of opportunity.

Scout dip. When and for how long is up to you, but even a 1 level dip will among other things increase your damage for every round in which you move at least 10', which is likely to be most of them.

[m149307]

Alright, I think I am going to go the spiked chain route. Seems less feat starved.

[Daishain]

Alright, I think I am going to go the spiked chain route. Seems less feat starved.

In that case, your effective role is to be as annoying as possible to the enemy rather than raw damage.

Other feats to consider other than those I mentioned (none are necessarily required, but they can help depending on just what you wish to focus on doing)

stand still - instead of taking AoO, can instead force moving enemy to stop in place (good for preventing baddy from running by you at the squishy spellcaster
improved trip - more easily knock people on their arse.
knockdown - free trip attempt against anything you deal 10+ damage to (requires imp trip)
Robilar's gambit - sacrifice some AC, in exchange, anything that attacks you gets an AoO in payback.

Actually, come to think of it, the halfling is at a bit of a disadvantage for this build. Trip attempts mainly use relative size modifiers, and a small size also means that an enlarge person spell or Expansion power won't get your overall reach up to 15' like it does for medium creatures. You should still be able to make it work, but I wouldn't rely on any trip attempts connecting on something relatively strong.

[Seppo87]

Spiked-chain swordsage can deal high damage.
Use Shadow Blade, dip Exotic Weapon Master for the flurry, dip Fighter for sneak attack + Hit-n-run, hell, you can even dip Barbarian to get Ferocity, which is awesome with shadow blade (+2 to hit and +3,5 to damage? sounds awesome, and your AC says: thank you)
Combine Assassin's stance with Craven (sneak attack class feature obtained via fighter) + Staggering Strike

The icing on the cake, Expert Tactician from Sword and Fist is incredible, combine it with diamond mind maneuvers of tiger claw jumps that allow you to treat opponents as flat-footed, and you get a second, entirely free standard action. Feel free to burn a second strike (including a full-round strike if you haven't moved yet)
As soon as you get raging mongoose and dancing mongoose, remember that by raw you can use these maneuvers in many situations, including single hit strikes and charges.

[Greenish]

Spiked Chain is a great weapon. The only weapon that is finessable, has reach, AND can strike adjacent foes.The only weapon aside from kusari-gama (DMG) and spinning sword (SoS) that is finessable, has reach, and can strike adjacent foes. Except probably for some Dragon Mag weapons.

[Seppo87]

But you can 2-hand power attack with Spiked Chain as well, while using Finesse. Elven Courtblade does that, but it doesn't have reach and trip.

Spiked Chain simply has everything

[m149307]

I heard that there is also an unarmed swordsage? Is it possible to make that dex based... or would that take alot of feats?

[Darrin]

I heard that there is also an unarmed swordsage? Is it possible to make that dex based... or would that take alot of feats?

Not at all. It's an adaptation on ToB page 20. The Unarmed variant trades light armor proficiency for the monk's unarmed strike progression. There's still some debate on the exact implications of this adaptation. Not everyone agrees that "unarmed strike progression" means the Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a monk, but many play it that way. There's also the problem that the Swordsage only gets an AC Bonus when wearing light armor, and by RAW they don't get this bonus when wearing no armor. You can either handwave this as "they get their AC Bonus with no armor or light armor", or just wear light armor that has no Armor Check Penalty (if ACP = 0, then the penalty for not being proficient with the armor is zero).

[arclance]

Unarmed Swordsage is good, especially if your DM says no to the spiked chain or you just feel like making an unarmed build.
Here is an example of a Unarmed Swordsage build I played once to give you some ideas.

Unarmed Swordsage 1/Hin Disciple Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage +3/Fist of the Forest 3/Unarmed Swordsage +1/Warblade 1/Unarmed Swordsage +9

Race: Strongheart Halfling

Feats

Lv.1
Hit Die: Combat Reflexes
Stronheart Halfling Bonus: Shadow Blade
Swordsage: Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand Weapons)
Unarmed Swordsage: Improved Unarmed Strike
Flaw 1: Power Attack
Flaw 2: Great Fortitude

Lv.2
Hin Disciple Monk Bonus: Underfoot Combat
Hin Disciple Monk Bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike

Lv.3
Hit Die: Weapon Finesse
Hin Disciple Monk Bonus: Improved Trip

Lv.6
Hit Die: Open | Improved Natural Attack

Lv.9
Hit Die: Open | Snap Kick

Lv.12
Hit Die: Confound the Big Folk

Lv.15
Hit Die: Open | Knock-Down (Your DM may hate this use with caution)

Lv.18
Hit Die: Open | Robilar's Gambit

The build utilizes the feat "Confound the Big Folk" which allows a small or smaller creature to trip any creature two or more size categories larger than them as a opposed DEX or STR check (your choice) and the target is denied their size bonus to the check.
It has hillarious synergy with the throws from the "Setting Sun" school of maneuvers.
The Tarrasque would have a only a +3 (16 Dex) to that opposed DEX check.

The Hin Disciple Monk ACF is from the Champions of Valor Web Enhancement. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)
The level of Warblade can be swapped with anything with Full BAB.