How would you un-bork 3.5 skills?

[aleucard]

Second verse, similar to the first. For all intents and purposes, unless if it's Tippyverse-worthy, individual class abilities are not taken into account here. I want to focus on the skill system specifically.

I'm interested in hearing what you think would need to be done to the skill system (or specific skills, whichever works) in order to make it so that if a given character would have equal reason to take any two skills, the only considerations that matter are subjective. In effect, putting all the skills on the same tier, as it were. One painfully obvious thing would be either removing the more insane functions of Diplomacy or bringing basically everything but UMD up to that level (UMD is excluded because it works with magic items, which are notorious for being at most a single step under spellcasting in terms of power, trading such for versatility in use (if you got UMD, you can use all magic items)). Another would be folding some of the more overly-specific skills like Disable Device and Open Lock into each other. Probably the most important modification would be altering how the skills work so that skill points invested counts for more and bonuses from items and such count for less, without gimping the skills in such a way that they lose functionality for a given level. You guys have any ideas?

[Extra Anchovies]

1. Make UMD check DCs variable. DC=15+CL of item. If an alignment is being emulated, add 4 for every step by which the user's alignment differs (e.g. a LN character's check to use a Chaotic-only item would have +8 DC; a CG character's check to use a LE-only item would have +16). If a class feature is being emulated, add the class level at which the class feature is gained by the (non-prestige) class that gains it first; this includes spellcasting ability. Thus, to cast a 3rd-level spell from a staff, add 5 to the DC (above and beyond the 15+CL). To use an item that needs evasion, add 2 (Monk gains it at level 2). Make mishaps occur on 50% of all failed checks. Allow one check per hour per item.

2. Use this fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) for the diplomacy skill.

3. Only allow (non-feinting) bluff checks when the player making the check can actually think up what their lie is going to be (if not how exactly to say it, at least the gist of what they want to lie about). Impose harshly-scaled circumstance penalties for coming up with something dumb (e.g. "surprise inspection! Let us pass, guards!" would net somewhere around a -20).

4. Never play with Item Familiars.

ETA:
5. Combine Open Lock/Disable Device. Combine Forgery/Decipher Script. Combine Knowledge (History)/Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). Combine Balance and Climb. Combine Heal/Survival.

6. Don't allow custom skill-boosting items.

[Telonius]

Combining skills is a great place to start. I also go with Hide/Move Silently together into Stealth; and Spot/Listen together into Perception.

Adding skills to a few classes' class lists (the "guard duty" stuff for Fighter and Paladin) is another obvious fix.

For the "+2/+2" feats, I'd either have the characters choose a bonus one at first level (kind of like the "traits" option from UA) and make them scale (bonus = character level/4 or 5), or junk them entirely. There's no mechanical reason to take them other than as a prerequisite for something.

The "Guidance of the Avatar" spell will produce a random quote from Aang and/or Kora, with no effect on skill checks.

[Extra Anchovies]

The "Guidance of the Avatar" spell will produce a random quote from Aang and/or Kora, with no effect on skill checks.

Seconded hard. Put those clerics in their place.

[Snowbluff]

I'd say combine skills, too. There are WAY too many knowledge skills that do similiar things that could easily be rolled up. History, Nobility, and Local, for example.

[StoneCipher]

*hits dead horse with a club*

CONDENSE ZE SKILLZ ZEHR ARE TOO MANY!

[Baroknik]

One of the problems, I think, is that the system's quanta are too noticeable. Transposing skills to a D% system I think would possibly help this. Give everyone x5 skill points to distribute, and make skill checks a roll-low system. DCs become modifiers to the roll.
Unsure how to balance this with PrC's, though, as there would be no gain for meeting minimum requirements, possibly remove the level skill-cap?
Outside of PrC's, though, you get the ability to fine-tune character interests more.

[aleucard]

I'd say combine skills, too. There are WAY too many knowledge skills that do similiar things that could easily be rolled up. History, Nobility, and Local, for example.

I'd be more inclined towards scrapping History and making PC's roll relevant Knowledge checks to find history related to things those skills cover (History of a given religion or town, for instance). Nobility and Local merging due to them being equally area-specific would make some good sense, too.

A good modification to skill-buff spells would be causing them to scale at least the majority of the buff by the target character's existing ability. For instance, Guidance of the Avatar gives a +2 bonus or 1/4 the character's skill points in the chosen skill as a bonus, whichever's higher. Sounds about right for a level 2 spell to me.

Hide and Move Silently being combined just makes sense (when the Hell is someone going to be trained in one but not the other?), but combining Spot and Listen, not so much. Firstly, they rely on separate senses, both of which have the ability to be disabled independent of each other. Second, with only a little tweaking, they can easily be made worthwhile in their own right (and for most people, they are already, even as cross-class). Third, I'm of the opinion that merging Spot with Search would be a more sensible choice (they're both visual, and they're both about seeing something that may be hard to notice). Listen can be augmented easily.

Making the +2/+2 feats give both heavier bonuses and allow someone to treat the skills in question as permanent class skills should be good enough.

EDIT: Baroknik swordsage'd me. To clarify, you're talking about multiplying the skill points given by ~5 or so, doing the same to ALL the DC's (or otherwise modifying them so they're roughly the same difficulty, other modifications taken into account), and calling done for that segment? That would definitely help with granularizing (I think that's the word) the level of training involved, and give a player the opportunity to spread their points a bit further if they want, without penalizing the ones who want to focus. Doing CC skill investment may need some tweaking, but I'm one to say that it'd be best to make it so that if something is gained as a class skill later, all points put into that skill previously count for full, like a more requirements-heavy Able Learner being given to everyone.

[Snowbluff]

Well, search is an int score. Presumably you have to know what to look for... combine with knowledges and/or appraise?

[Segev]

Perhaps feats which make new and interesting uses - uses far beyond usual power levels for skills - for the skills currently considered underpowered? It would mean you need more investment to make them "on par," but they skip to "above par" that way.

[aleucard]

Well, search is an int score. Presumably you have to know what to look for... combine with knowledges and/or appraise?

Knowledges are distinct enough from Search in function that combining them doesn't feel right, but mixing in Appraise to it (or just mixing Appraise into relevant Craft skills, or somewhere in between so that people who invest in both get added benefit) would be perfectly fine by me.

[Snowbluff]

Perhaps feats which make new and interesting uses - uses far beyond usual power levels for skills - for the skills currently considered underpowered? It would mean you need more investment to make them "on par," but they skip to "above par" that way. Purrhaps they should be rolled into the skill tricks system? >:3


Knowledges are distinct enough from Search in function that combining them doesn't feel right, but mixing in Appraise to it (or just mixing Appraise into relevant Craft skills, or somewhere in between so that people who invest in both get added benefit) would be perfectly fine by me.

Sounds about right. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

On the one hand, I like the concept of spending skill points on discrete packages of cool stuff. On the other, something about how skill tricks are implemented always leaves me a bit...blah. I'm not entirely sure why; possibly the "once per encounter" bit, but I think it's more than that.

[Alent]

I'd start by splitting the existing feats into three groups:

Class Skills
Adventuring Skills
Background Skills


Everything under Class Skills becomes a class feature and it's rules more universalized. If you'll forgive the borderline grognard statement: UMD is a rogue-thief/bard class feature masquerading as a skill, and probably should be removed as a bad idea in the first place. (One second, I can find the fora quotes for that in my enveloping pit, just let me convince it I'm a LE Kobold and not a CG human) Concentration should be a class specific mechanic or maybe even draw from 5e and make it a will save. Survival can be argued to be a Ranger class feature that got given to everyone by mistake.

Background skills are things like Knowledge, Profession, Craft, etc.

Adventuring skills are more active things like spot/listen, ride, hide, sneak, bluff.

From there I'd sit and consider which skills are appropriate, see if there's a better way to categorize things, and in general try to keep the customizability of the system without making it into a convoluted mess.

Then I'd split the skill points/level into two pools, so you you could grow your knowledges without cutting into your tumble, spot, or ride checks.

That seems like a start to me. Definitely not a whole fix by itself, but a start.

[Snowbluff]

I'd alter the limitations on how you would use them. EDIT: For skill tricks.

As an aside, I would have CC system changed. If you have something as a class skill, your ranks count as full points, and class skills work retroactively and remain class skills in a MC.

If that's not okay, the sheets should have CC and regular ranks listed to make it easier to calculate.

[StoneCipher]

I would just get rid of skill tricks in the process. They're neat features but completely unnecessary.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd alter the limitations on how you would use them. EDIT: For skill tricks.

As an aside, I would have CC system changed. If you have something as a class skill, your ranks count as full points, and class skills work retroactively and remain class skills in a MC.

If that's not okay, the sheets should have CC and regular ranks listed to make it easier to calculate.

I agree that there's not enough freedom regarding skill allocation. What if you want a wizard who's a good swimmer (because of background, I guess)? The rules currently say "screw you". I think if UMD is removed/nerfed hard, Diplomacy is replaced by Rich's fix (which I linked earlier), and Bluff is severely nerfed, it would be pretty fair to let all Int-derived skill points work on a 1-to-1 basis regardless of class skill lists. Thus, a Barbarian with an int of 12 would, at each level, gain 4 skill points that can be placed in class skills at 1-to-1 or in cross-class skills at half rate, and 1 skill point that could be placed into any skill as a 1-to-1. The skill points from human count as Int-derived for this purpose.

If that feels too freeing, maybe make the 1-to-1 ratio apply to class skills and (if using Int-derived skill points) non-"Trained Only" skills; thus, skills that can be used untrained can always be bought at 1-to-1 using Int-derived skills (and are 1-to-1 for class-derived skills if they're on the class skill list), but skills requiring training are only 1-to-1 if they're on the class skill list.

[Fax Celestis]

One of the things I'm doing with d20r is making skills rankless. You are trained or untrained in a given skill, and different tiers of training give you new uses of the skill (as seen here on the Acrobatics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9382244&postcount=2) skill). Your roll varies depending upon your training.


To make an untrained skill check, roll 1d20 + your relevant ability modifier + your Wisdom modifier, plus any other modifiers from items, feats, or class features.

To make an apprentice skill check, roll 1d20 + your hero value + your relevant ability modifier + your Wisdom modifier, plus any other modifiers from items, feats, or class features.

To make a journeyman or master skill check, roll 1d20 + your hero value + twice your relevant ability modifier + your Wisdom modifier, plus any other modifiers from items, feats, or class features.
...which narrows the range between being focused in a skill and not focused in it, but also makes your character sheet easier to manage: you've got three numbers (untrained, apprentice, and journeyman/master) that apply to all your skills, plus your relevant ability modifier. And it makes the upper bounds of a skill's range not quite so ludicrous.

Sticking with Acrobatics for the example, at 20th level, and assuming 34 Dex and 27 Wis (trust me, I have a calculator with presumptions based on level (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dFd0X1NQQmFNMWUxQUcwOExteUpPb Xc&usp=sharing&authkey=CNPl-7AB)), these are the following rolls:
Untrained: 1d20+20
Apprentice: 1d20+30
Journeyman/Master: 1d20+42

I've also played around with using a composite ability modifier (that is, adding all your ability modifiers together) to determine skill ranks, which gives you something that looks like this:

Skill Modifier Progressions
18/16/14/12/10/8 Array
Primary Mod + Composite 13 13 13 13 15 16 17 20 21 21 23 24 27 27 29 33 36 36 38 40
Secondary Mod + Composite 12 12 12 12 13 15 16 19 20 20 21 23 26 26 27 32 34 34 35 36
Tertiary Mod + Composite 11 11 11 11 12 13 15 17 18 18 19 20 24 24 25 28 31 31 32 33
Quaternary Mod + Composite 10 10 10 10 11 12 13 15 17 17 18 19 22 22 23 26 28 28 29 30
Quinary Mod + Composite 9 9 9 9 10 11 12 14 15 15 16 17 21 21 22 25 27 27 28 29
Sectary Mod + Composite 8 8 8 8 9 10 11 13 14 14 15 16 20 20 21 24 26 26 27 28
Distributed Stats to Optimize Composite Ability Modifier (15/14/14/14/14/14)
Primary Mod + Composite 14 14 14 16 19 20 20 24 24 27 28 30 33 33 36 40 43 45 45 47
Secondary Mod + Composite 14 14 14 15 18 19 19 24 24 27 28 29 32 32 35 39 42 43 43 44
Tertiary Mod + Composite 14 14 14 15 17 19 19 23 23 25 27 28 31 31 33 37 40 41 41 42
Quaternary Mod + Composite 14 14 14 15 17 18 18 23 23 25 26 27 31 31 33 36 40 41 41 42
Quinary Mod + Composite 14 14 14 15 17 18 18 23 23 25 26 27 31 31 33 36 40 41 41 42
Sectary Mod + Composite 14 14 14 15 17 18 18 23 23 25 26 27 31 31 33 36 40 41 41 42

Obviously, combining skills is also a necessity, but I wouldn't pare it down as far as 4e did.

[aleucard]

On Extra Anchovies' link to a Diplomacy fix, it looks like that could also easily supplant Bluff as well, which should remove one more vector for people to break the game. Just make it so that there's a moderate penalty if you don't believe what you're saying or are otherwise actively deceiving someone (since such things do have semi-universal tells that people can actively pick up on even by instinct, just make it so bonuses to anti-Bluff checks only work when such penalties are in play). It's also good for a direct way to barter, since the only thing different from bartering and debating is what the point of contention is between the participants (namely, an item's/service's price rather than a given topic).

[Curmudgeon]

The "Guidance of the Avatar" spell will produce a random quote from Aang and/or Kora, with no effect on skill checks.
If you're not nerfing spells like Glibness at the same time, this would just seem to be mean-spirited.

[Thiyr]

If you're not nerfing spells like Glibness at the same time, this would just seem to be mean-spirited.

Only if the DM only gives advice by way of Kyoshi. She was the only one of those spirits I felt was really mean.

Seriously tho, I think there's never gonna be straight parity between skills. Its gonna take a lot of effort to make swim an enticing choice, for instance. I mean, shy of gutting the skill system entirely, that is. Combining skills can help, but that only goes so far. And you can't really take it too far out of context of the rest of everything as well. Rolling jump/climb/swim together works, but I'd still not care about that skill on its own given how many ways there are of ignoring said checks all together. Heal is pretty much rendered moot by spells, etc, etc.

On top of that, there are skills like survival or forgery that are extra-situatoinal, and there are skills like appraise that ime just get handwaved 'cause we don't want to waste our time with that level of minutae that often.

Considering all of that, I'd say step one to any plan for unborking is to look over the skills and find acceptable ways to axe all the dead weight, be it making things into ability checks, combining skills, or finding more use for things even in a game as steeped in magic as this one.


Also, as is often the case, I think Fax is onto something good there. *holds up his Vote Fax 2016 sign*

[Fax Celestis]

I am more and more leaning on doing composite ability mod + relevant ability score, btw. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Unfortunately this means I need to go back and re-DC the skills again.

[Jeff the Green]

I really don't understand why some people are suggesting nerfs to skills or restrictions on who can use them. What needs to happen is the DCs need to scale properly (as in Rich's Diplomacy fix) and the lesser skills need to be combined and brought up to Diplomacy and UMD's level. The fact that skills are so much worse than spells at almost everything is part of what makes mundanes so much worse than casters.

Off the top of my head, Heal should be as good at restoring HP between encounters as wands, Acrobatics should be able to get you some movement modes normally available only through magic, Perception should be able to give you Blindsight etc., and Hide in Plain Sight should be the default.

[aleucard]

How's about giving the skills that need a leg up (or the ones that best fit) certain always-on benefits like blindsense/sight for certain ranks in Listen or mandatory-minimum things that always happen for people with a certain amount, like after a certain point any check that could be completed with a no-crit fail roll of 1 is automatically made (any bonus subject to Disjunctioning and similar doesn't count for either, obviously). Preferably, every skill has at least one of these that scales with each point put into it, giving some reward for the people who focus.

[Telonius]

Glibness is one of the things a mid- to high-level Bard ought to be able to do. It's just one particular use of the Bluff skill - to lie your pants off and have people believe you - and is in line with a lot of the Bard's social shtick. It's not necessarily broadly applicable to all classes, in potion or custom item form. I've considered making it a 1/day class feature or Bardic Music ability instead of a spell (and possibly adding it as a Rogue's Special Ability).

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, sure, but it has no business being a first level spell. +30? Wtf were they smoking?

[Theomniadept]

Might be beating a dead horse but in the game I plan on running it will essentially be 3.5 but with Pathfinder's skills. Also, I would add a clause about skill synergies and allow Craft and Profession to be used interchangeably and have arguable synergies there. I mean wizards can just use a 4th level spell to make a chunk of adamantine into full plate armor in a standard action I would think having 5 ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing), Craft (armorsmithing), and Profession (blacksmith) all synergizing with one another wouldn't break the game at all.

I'd make Diplomacy not about changing an NPCs attitude but rather making them accept a deal. Make a DC set based on their initial attitude, and make that attitude change depending on factors like whether they share the same alignment with the player making the Diplomacy roll (obviously only if they've demonstrated said alignment so it's not an auto-alignment detection and allows for sneakier liar characters to bluff their alignment), depending on whether the NPC is related in some way (not just family but like a blacksmith and a knight of the court), etc, and make the DCs also variable depending on how detrimental the deal is to the NPC. A blacksmith giving a player a 10% discount on a sword during a time of war when his home is very visibly threatened is something that wouldn't even be rolled because of how reasonable it is, but a blacksmith of another country giving the same deal to an unknown player during a time of peace would be a deal requiring a roll.

[Alent]

I really don't understand why some people are suggesting nerfs to skills or restrictions on who can use them. What needs to happen is the DCs need to scale properly (as in Rich's Diplomacy fix) and the lesser skills need to be combined and brought up to Diplomacy and UMD's level. The fact that skills are so much worse than spells at almost everything is part of what makes mundanes so much worse than casters.

Off the top of my head, Heal should be as good at restoring HP between encounters as wands, Acrobatics should be able to get you some movement modes normally available only through magic, Perception should be able to give you Blindsight etc., and Hide in Plain Sight should be the default.

I can't speak for others, but I'm generally opposed to things that are objectively right/obvious choices in game design. (and I probably should have waited to post until after I got back, since I wanted to say more but had to rush or be late to something.) The fact that UMD is such a powerfully obvious skill that people can decide [monks] taking cross-class ranks in it over "intended" choices is a good idea means something is massively out of balance and needs to be adjusted.

Philosophically, I also think UMD is so overloaded that its functionality should be split up and folded into other skills like the knowledge skills to make them more functional. (I like them as is, but I'm the usually only person at the table that even uses them.) Mix the knowledge enhancement with something like a two skill pools fix, where the average characters get 4+int points for adventuring skills and 2+int points for background skills and you get characters who have reason and ability to take things like "Kn(Religion)" as a fighter and thus know how to use CLW wands on even a trained only DC 5 check. Once UMD is broken up amongst the knowledges and more evenly spread, then to capture the old grognard spirit you give Rogues a class feature called UMD that lets them use Kn(Dungeoneering) to apply to all such devices.

Mind you, this is an example, and I haven't thought about all the ramifications because I'm trying to suggest a possible starting point. I absolutely agree with making Heal relevant so people can stop abusing CLW wands. It would be great to have Hide in Plain Sight be baseline to hide, granted as a feature of an existing sneaky-type feat, or as a skill trick rather than diluting classes like shadowdancer by taking a dip in them for a single class feature then never looking back. That just seems like step two to me, after you've gone through and decided how to address overloaded skills and to achieve that you have to define what constitutes an overloaded skill. Nerfing may not be the answer, but my objective isn't to make skills weaker.

I also didn't really want to touch the subject of spells interacting with skills, because I'd like to see skill checks giving bonuses to magic casting; rather than magic casting giving bonuses to skill checks. That's something that needs strong examples that I'm not sure I can come up with right now since I haven't played in a while.

[Telonius]

Use Magic Device is a particularly thorny problem, because it bleeds into what's arguably the biggest problem with 3.x's design: dominance of magic. The skill is too powerful because magic (in item form or otherwise) is too powerful. I don't think the skill system is really the root problem there.

[aleucard]

On the subject of making Heal relevant, how about adding a function that allows the healing of a certain amount of HP per minute (or the granting of a larger amount of temporary HP that lasts until natural healing overtakes that amount) based on someone's Heal check? Make this either not use heal-kit charges or modulate it so that it ends up being cheaper than wands of vigor for the healing they get. Making poisons more relevant (with some needing Heal checks or high level spells and lesser Heal checks to remove in a short amount of time) would also help, and in multiple ways as well. The better poisons should need some VERY odd circumstances or a massively-overpowered target in order for someone to be immune, or at least resistant enough that they won't need medical attention to deal with permanent consequences. Making that medical attention be defined by the Heal skill (both on its own and with magical assistance, all healing should scale at least a little off of the skill) would make it MUCH more relevant. Even God-Wizards sometimes need a Medic.

[Thiyr]

I can't speak for others, but I'm generally opposed to things that are objectively right/obvious choices in game design. (and I probably should have waited to post until after I got back, since I wanted to say more but had to rush or be late to something.) The fact that UMD is such a powerfully obvious skill that people can decide [monks] taking cross-class ranks in it over "intended" choices is a good idea means something is massively out of balance and needs to be adjusted.

Philosophically, I also think UMD is so overloaded that its functionality should be split up and folded into other skills like the knowledge skills to make them more functional. (I like them as is, but I'm the usually only person at the table that even uses them.) Mix the knowledge enhancement with something like a two skill pools fix, where the average characters get 4+int points for adventuring skills and 2+int points for background skills and you get characters who have reason and ability to take things like "Kn(Religion)" as a fighter and thus know how to use CLW wands on even a trained only DC 5 check. Once UMD is broken up amongst the knowledges and more evenly spread, then to capture the old grognard spirit you give Rogues a class feature called UMD that lets them use Kn(Dungeoneering) to apply to all such devices.

Mind you, this is an example, and I haven't thought about all the ramifications because I'm trying to suggest a possible starting point. I absolutely agree with making Heal relevant so people can stop abusing CLW wands. It would be great to have Hide in Plain Sight be baseline to hide, granted as a feature of an existing sneaky-type feat, or as a skill trick rather than diluting classes like shadowdancer by taking a dip in them for a single class feature then never looking back. That just seems like step two to me, after you've gone through and decided how to address overloaded skills and to achieve that you have to define what constitutes an overloaded skill. Nerfing may not be the answer, but my objective isn't to make skills weaker.

I also didn't really want to touch the subject of spells interacting with skills, because I'd like to see skill checks giving bonuses to magic casting; rather than magic casting giving bonuses to skill checks. That's something that needs strong examples that I'm not sure I can come up with right now since I haven't played in a while.

Honestly, I don't think splitting up UMD would help with that problem quite as much as I'd like. Especially if you're putting it into the knowledge skills. Obviously it's group dependent, but we have a lot of people that prioritize knowledge, even if just to help identify what we're encountering. At that point, it'd be taking it away from being "the rogue's deal", and letting people like your friendly neighborhood wizard and cleric use whatever they find -without- doing cross class stuff. Which can kinda make sense but seems counterproductive to what seems to be the goal.

I will say that I agree with the "Skills should be giving boosts to spells" bit, but that's more on the revamping spells end of things, I'd say. Add your heal modifier to the result of cure spells you cast, or the like. Given how pervasive magic is in the system, it seems kinda silly to try and keep those two spots segregated. It makes sense to let the master surgeon be better at making the healing energy go where its needed. Too lazy to think up other examples offhand (appraise to reduce cost of expensive components? Idunno), but its a start.

[Glimbur]

Spells scale with level. A third level wizard has access to better spells than a first level wizard, and so they can do stronger things.

Skills are 1d20+ranks+attribute mod+misc. A third level rogue might only be +2 better at a skill than a first level rogue. That's a little bit better, but the d20 is pretty swingy.

So, maybe you need to scrap skill points and instead let people buy 'ranks' or 'tiers' or 'secrets' in a skill. Some video games have 'lockpicking' as a binary skill, some have it as 'your investment must be this tall to pick this kind of lock' and some have you gradually get better as you get more points into it. Let's consider the middle option for D&D: clear levels of skill which allow different interactions with the environment. For example, have a sliding scale of lockpicking difficulties for locks: trivial, simple, easy, moderate, difficult, complex, very hard, fiendish. Then a character who has put enough resources into lockpicking can pick harder locks which a lucky but less skilled person cannot. Heal checks to stabilize, restore hp, cure diseases, fix damaging effects (blindness, nausea, slow, petrification, etc) can also be graded similarly. Many skills can be broken into more mundane and more heroic pieces, I offer a rough example later.

If you have different tiers of skill, then what do we need the dice for? You could use a similar idea to a dFudge, which has +, -, and 0 on it. You'd need a pretty good spread of skill ranks to have this variation not be too great. This also means you could include a penalty for rushing, or allow people to roll more dice for a heroic effort, or other things.

Jump, swim, and climb are kind of boring in this new system. Maybe they get rolled into acrobatics, maybe they just get dropped and everyone can climb or swim or jump.

If you want to get really fancy, you could have tiers of ability with different perks within each one. For example, take Knowledge (Arcana)


Skill Ranking
Perk 1
Perk 2
Perk 3
Perk 4
Perk 5


Basic: Identify 1st and 2nd level spells
+1 to CL versus SR of Magic Beasts, Dragons, and constructs
+1 cantrip slot per day
Extend Spell, as the feat
Identify (name, 1 strength and 1 weakness) CR 1-3 Magic Beasts, Dragons, and constructs
Able to read ancient languages about magic


Intermediate: Identify 3rd and 4th level spells
+1 to one save (Ref Will or Fort) versus spells
Determine aura of an area (ancient magic circle, ruined wizard tower, etc)
+1 CL for one spell descriptor ([fire], [acid], etc)
Identify (name, 1 strength and 1 weakness) CR 4-8 Magic Beasts, Dragons, and constructs
Able to turn one N level spell slot into two N-1 level spell slots 1/day


Advanced: Identify 5th and 6th level spells
Enlarge spell, as the feat
Can ready a counterspell as a move action (casting stat mod) times/day
-1 damage per die taken from hostile spells
Identify (name, 1 strength and 1 weakness) CR 9-14 Magic Beasts, Dragons, and constructs
Able to create permanent magic traps


Master: Identify any non-epic spell
Quicken Spell, as the feat
Globe of Invulnerability on self only 1/day CL = character level
Able to channel environment to improve spells
Identify (name, 1 strength and 1 weakness) CR 15-21 Magic Beasts, Dragons, and constructs
Able to create constructs



I may have chosen a bad example, and this is a power boost to anyone who takes Knowledge (Arcana) and casts spells. But it also gives characters another way to be different from each other.

Maybe the table of 'choose your own powers' is too much work or too open to abuse, and so everyone with certain levels in skills gets certain abilities. Then you just have to regulate how quickly people can gain levels in abilities. That will be another tricky part. This idea isn't even half-baked yet, but it is another way to add level-appropriate powers to characters who should be able to do things.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This skill system isn't borked, and remains the best one written for any D&D edition. While it surely isn't perfect and like anything, could probably be slightly improved, it in no way is in need of some big make-over.

Asking for every skill to be the same "tier" is an impossible standard, and a standard that even threads on fixing other game aspects, like classes, feats, or spells, don't even bother to request. Finally, the power of some skills vs. others is itself part of class balance. The skill monkey classes are supposed to get more of the uber skills than the other classes do; combined with the pain of raising a skill cross class, this is part of the niche protection that is fundamental to what little class balance there is in the game.

/public service announcement

[Extra Anchovies]

This skill system isn't borked, and remains the best one written for any D&D edition. While it surely isn't perfect and like anything, could probably be slightly improved, it in no way is in need of some big make-over.

Asking for every skill to be the same "tier" is an impossible standard, and a standard that even threads on fixing other game aspects, like classes, feats, or spells, don't even bother to request. Finally, the power of some skills vs. others is itself part of class balance. The skill monkey classes are supposed to get more of the uber skills than the other classes do; combined with the pain of raising a skill cross class, this is part of the niche protection that is fundamental to what little class balance there is in the game.

/public service announcement

You know, I hadn't thought about it this way before. That's actually a really good point. Thanks for sharing!

However, I do still think that Diplomacy needs massive reworking (I'm a fan of Rich's suggested fix, changing it to more of a bargaining skill than a "making people like me" skill), that UMD should scale rather than have flat DCs, and that custom skill-boosting items shouldn't be allowed. Beyond that, one or two skill combinations (forgery/decipher script and open lock/disable device spring to mind) is really all that's worth doing. Anything else might upset game balance the other way.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You know, I hadn't thought about it this way before. That's actually a really good point. Thanks for sharing!

However, I do still think that Diplomacy needs massive reworking (I'm a fan of Rich's suggested fix, changing it to more of a bargaining skill than a "making people like me" skill), that UMD should scale rather than have flat DCs, and that custom skill-boosting items shouldn't be allowed. Beyond that, one or two skill combinations (forgery/decipher script and open lock/disable device spring to mind) is really all that's worth doing. Anything else might upset game balance the other way.

I'd agree with fixing Diplomacy, sure. I think UMD is pretty fine as is, the main problem is it's useless at low levels since the lowest DC is 20, and failing can be very bad, at least a lot more bad than trying and failing with most other skill checks. The DCs already scale up to 40 for using a CL 20 scroll, which is pretty high. The fixed DC 20 for wands means rogue can play pretend-mage without too much trouble, and the cross-class rules make it take at least some investment for other classes to exploit it. If someone's willing to spend a feat or dip a class to get it as a class skill, that's fine by me...

[Arbane]

This skill system isn't borked, and remains the best one written for any D&D edition. While it surely isn't perfect and like anything, could probably be slightly improved, it in no way is in need of some big make-over.

Asking for every skill to be the same "tier" is an impossible standard, and a standard that even threads on fixing other game aspects, like classes, feats, or spells, don't even bother to request. Finally, the power of some skills vs. others is itself part of class balance. The skill monkey classes are supposed to get more of the uber skills than the other classes do; combined with the pain of raising a skill cross class, this is part of the niche protection that is fundamental to what little class balance there is in the game.

/public service announcement

I'd argue it does need fixing, for the exact same reason the caster classes do - the game seems to have been made with the idea that a +10 in, say, Diplomacy is as valuable and useful +10 in Profession (Hod-Carrier).

And for a specific example, Jump needs a realismectomy. With the wizards able to FLY from level 5 onward, allowing the snivelling peasants non-casters to leap small buildings in a single bound does not seem unreasonable to me.

[Snowbluff]

This skill system isn't borked, and remains the best one written for any D&D edition. While it surely isn't perfect and like anything, could probably be slightly improved, it in no way is in need of some big make-over.

Asking for every skill to be the same "tier" is an impossible standard, and a standard that even threads on fixing other game aspects, like classes, feats, or spells, don't even bother to request. Finally, the power of some skills vs. others is itself part of class balance. The skill monkey classes are supposed to get more of the uber skills than the other classes do; combined with the pain of raising a skill cross class, this is part of the niche protection that is fundamental to what little class balance there is in the game.

/public service announcementGenerally, I'd agree. That's why my changes are to make it simpler to use without compromising the core components.

[Talionis]

I really don't understand why some people are suggesting nerfs to skills or restrictions on who can use them. What needs to happen is the DCs need to scale properly (as in Rich's Diplomacy fix) and the lesser skills need to be combined and brought up to Diplomacy and UMD's level. The fact that skills are so much worse than spells at almost everything is part of what makes mundanes so much worse than casters.

Off the top of my head, Heal should be as good at restoring HP between encounters as wands, Acrobatics should be able to get you some movement modes normally available only through magic, Perception should be able to give you Blindsight etc., and Hide in Plain Sight should be the default.

I agree with this. Skills across the board need their DC examined.

Something else I would think about is why are the skills tied to Intelligence? For most skills it makes sense, but there are a lot of athletic skills and it always bothered be that Barbarians don't have the skill points to keep things like Jump, Swim, and Ride maxed out.

There are some skills that are designed for non smart characters to be better at learning than the smart characters.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd argue it does need fixing, for the exact same reason the caster classes do - the game seems to have been made with the idea that a +10 in, say, Diplomacy is as valuable and useful +10 in Profession (Hod-Carrier).

Well, the way it works is that some skills are better than others, so you'd max out diplomacy and such and only go down to Prof. (Hod-Carrier) once you've stacked your points in all the better class skills first, and possibly some good cross-class ones. Unless the campaign makes being a Hod-Carrier really important, then things would change. I really don't even know how you'd begin to "equalize" two such skills. The power imbalance is as massive as it is subjective, there is no solution that would really be fair.

I am in favor of giving PCs free skill points to invest in a craft, profession, perform or (one of the non-monster-IDing) knowledges to represent their career training or education, if you think that would help.


And for a specific example, Jump needs a realismectomy. With the wizards able to FLY from level 5 onward, allowing the snivelling peasants non-casters to leap small buildings in a single bound does not seem unreasonable to me.

Eh...with Tiger Claw, Battle Jump feat, and so forth, Jump has its uses even if it won't let you leap over buildings. I wouldn't mind unlocking the ability to pseudo-fly with it, but I'd rather have that be a class feature or feat than in the base skill itself. If monks, barbarians, and rogues got to jump vertically a number of feet equal to the check result instead of 1/4 the check result as some sort of ~5th level class feature, that'd be cool, for example. I'd rather just have more means of flight besides spells than to divorce jump completely from realism for everyone, though.

I don't really begrudge wizards using the fly spell, it's very limited duration. Getting all day flight is much more unforgivable, when "fighting all day" is supposed to be the martial thing. With casters getting all the best long-duration combat buffs, it utterly destroys that supposed spot light balance. Ideally, martials would get crappy all day / unlimited use flight, and casters would have limited use/duration uber flight.

[Jeff the Green]

I agree with this. Skills across the board need their DC examined.

Something else I would think about is why are the skills tied to Intelligence? For most skills it makes sense, but there are a lot of athletic skills and it always bothered be that Barbarians don't have the skill points to keep things like Jump, Swim, and Ride maxed out.

There are some skills that are designed for non smart characters to be better at learning than the smart characters.

This can partly be fixed by increasing the skill points of most classes (Wizards are the only ones I can think of that are just right) and condensing skills. If one were to use Athletics instead of Climb, Jump, Tumble, and Swim, for example, it'd be pretty easy for a Barbarian to be good at all the things he should.

[Curmudgeon]

This can partly be fixed by increasing the skill points of most classes ...
That really doesn't fix anything. The problem is that, even for those with plenty of skill points, what you can accomplish with skills is much less significant than what you can accomplish with magic 10, 20, or even 40 levels earlier. You can use Appraise to determine that something is a magical object — except the DC is 50. You can Balance on something like the edge of a board — except the DC is 40. You can disguise your surface thoughts with Bluff — except the DC is 100. You can Climb like a spider on smooth surfaces — except the minimum DC is 70.

More skill points won't let you accomplish what low level spells (Detect Magic is level 0, Spider Climb is level 2) can do, unless you're either well into Epic levels or using magic yourself to make those skill checks. You already pointed out that skills need to be brought up to where they're at least in the same league as simple spells. The only way to do that is to re-examine the DCs, just as Talionis said.

[Jeff the Green]

That really doesn't fix anything. The problem is that, even for those with plenty of skill points, what you can accomplish with skills is much less significant than what you can accomplish with magic 10, 20, or even 40 levels earlier. You can use Appraise to determine that something is a magical object — except the DC is 50. You can Balance on something like the edge of a board — except the DC is 40. You can disguise your surface thoughts with Bluff — except the DC is 100. You can Climb like a spider on smooth surfaces — except the minimum DC is 70.

More skill points won't let you accomplish what low level spells (Detect Magic is level 0, Spider Climb is level 2) can do, unless you're either well into Epic levels or using magic yourself to make those skill checks. You already pointed out that skills need to be brought up to where they're at least in the same league as simple spells. The only way to do that is to re-examine the DCs, just as Talionis said.

I didn't say that it would fix skills. I said it would fix the problem of Barbarians not having enough to do all the things they should be able to do. Note my post that Talionis quoted in the post I quoted, where I said what's needed is to bring other skills up to the power level of Diplomacy and UMD—Heal should be on par with healing spells, the acrobatic skills or Acrobatics condensed should open up new modes of movement, etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I didn't say that it would fix skills. I said it would fix the problem of Barbarians not having enough to do all the things they should be able to do. Note my post that Talionis quoted in the post I quoted, where I said what's needed is to bring other skills up to the power level of Diplomacy and UMD—Heal should be on par with healing spells, the acrobatic skills or Acrobatics condensed should open up new modes of movement, etc.

I think the way it is set up is to reward someone who invests heavily in a high Int or other means of more skill points, to be able to max out all the "thematic" or expected skill roles of their class, rather than let anyone who enters the class do it automatically.

Also, it is a team game that is largely (attempted, at least) to be balanced by spotlight balance. If you can't train in every skill you'd like to...as long as someone else in the party can, it's not a big deal. Having multiple people good at a key skill is a luxury, not a necessity.

Finally...I often see people looking to "fix" skills that complain about how many of the ones that use DCs instead of opposed rolls cap out "too early," as if it's a bad thing. It is entirely intended design! You're not supposed to be indentured to your original skills for the entire game. Being able to hit a cap, see the light at the end of the tunnel, means you have the freedom to split off and start training in a new skill. Of course, they might add in epic skill DCs to entice you to plunk more ranks in, and that's fine.

But the way it is set up now is that: 1) barring a significant investment, you just plain can't "do it all" right away; 2) the party works together to cover each others deficiencies; 3) later-game, you get to actually master a skill and reach its pinnacle, freeing you up to diversify into others.

[Talionis]

I'm all for rewarding high Intelligence, but sometimes in more MAD characters it's hard to put too many points in Intelligence. But some skills don't naturally analog to Intelligence being the ability that makes you good at them. Climb is a good example of a skill that you learn through practice and not reading a book. You don't need to strengthen your mind, so much as little tiny finger muscles that are a part of strength, but not ordinary strength, think about how little the guys and girls are that are ninja warriors. Intelligence is no part of the training they do.

I'm all for characters playing roles, but my already MAD monk might not have much intelligence, but should be good at many of these athletic skills.