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Dyhmas
2014-09-12, 04:54 PM
...because we've all had that spell that we really liked in 3.5, but that just wasn't all that viable by the endgame without a specific build or combo, right?

Anyway, I brewed this feat by request of one of my players who has always loved Magic Missiles and specially loved the fact that it can now be cast as a 9th level spell. We came up with this cause we still feel that it lacks some oomph when cast this way. I've mainly put this up so that you can help me check how brok-, I mean, efficient it is...

Favorite Spell

Pre-requisites: Spellcasting, able to cast 2nd level spells.

You’ve mastered the use of a particular spell, perhaps of which you are fond of, becoming capable of casting it with greater ease and efficiency. Choose one spell that you know and can cast, up to 5th level spells, to permanently gain the following benefits when cast:

+It is always treated as if cast from a slot one level higher, up to 9th level;
i.e a magic missile cast from a 2nd level slot creates five darts, instead of four. However, the same magic missile would gain no benefit if cast from a 9th level slot.

+It is always considered prepared, if applicable to your class, and never counts against the number of spells you may have prepared at any one time;

+Pick one metamagic ability from the sorcerer's list, other than Twinned Spell, that costs no more than 1 sorcery point. Your favorite spell permanently receives the benefit of that metamagic whenever it is cast.
i.e the same magic missile may be Empowered for free, whenever it is cast

Special: The Warlock's Pact Magic ability doesn't work as pre-requisite for this feat.

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I'd be incredibly gratefull for any input in crunch, fluff or even grammar!

Thank you in advance for reading.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

DiBastet
2014-09-12, 11:54 PM
Well, the system is too new to comment on balance but yeah, I guess this is ok. Oh, and the wording could use some polishment.

I think the metamagic part may have some issues, but imagining what my players would do I see nothing gamebreaking.

They would use it like this:
-Careful Fireball or Fear
-Distant Bestow Curse or Cure Wounds or Enhance Ability
-Subtle Dimension Door or Charm Person

Since this would probably be their signature spell fitting their charcter concept, yeah, I don't think you'll break the game with this. I would just add that you can only choose a spell between level 1 to 5 to improve with this feat, since 6+ are considered sacred by lots of rules.

Dyhmas
2014-09-14, 07:30 AM
Well, the system is too new to comment on balance but yeah, I guess this is ok. Oh, and the wording could use some polishment.

I think the metamagic part may have some issues, but imagining what my players would do I see nothing gamebreaking.

They would use it like this:
-Careful Fireball or Fear
-Distant Bestow Curse or Cure Wounds or Enhance Ability
-Subtle Dimension Door or Charm Person

Since this would probably be their signature spell fitting their charcter concept, yeah, I don't think you'll break the game with this. I would just add that you can only choose a spell between level 1 to 5 to improve with this feat, since 6+ are considered sacred by lots of rules.

Well, again, this was a player request and he intends to use this with Magic Missiles, so...nothing gamebreaking indeed.

Still, I see your point about limiting the spell level, wich makes sense, and will add that right now.

Thank you for the feedback.

-Dyhmas

EDIT: Any ideas how this would interact with Warlock spellcasting? As is, I've limited this feat to casters with a spell list, wich is not the case for the Warlock, if I'm not mistaken, but should I allow that class to have access to it, I'd be potentially giving them a way to have another spell ready per short rest, due to the second ability of the feat...or am I overthinking?

DiBastet
2014-09-14, 07:58 AM
Just change the Pre-requisites to this:

Pre-requisites: Spellcasting, able to cast 1st level spells.

If you look closely the warlock doesn't have the Spellcasting ability but the Pact Magic ability. If you phrase it like this then he can't choose this feat. Keeping with the spirit of 5e I would add a Special line.

Special: The Warlock's Pact Magic ability doesn't work as pre-requisite for this feat.

Actually Dyhmas, I don't think this will be a problem for you, but in my games I would raise the pre-requisite to being able to cast 2nd level spells. Why? Because then a variant human couldn't select the feat at 1st level, but also because I believe half and third casters should have a delayed access to this feat. Again, balance reasons.

Dyhmas
2014-09-14, 11:15 AM
Thank you for the brief explanation on Warlock's casting. Changes to the pre-requesites shall be made.

On the point of balance, as you said, it won't be an issue, but perhaps because that is a minor detail. Any DM that uses this can easily switch the pre-requesites to 2nd level spells. After all, this is a feat made by request, for an already DM-vouched idea, so no biggie.

I shall add a note on the bottom of the post, regarding your concerns tho, thank you again.

-Dyhmas

xyianth
2014-09-15, 10:05 AM
I'm a little confused about the wording of this feat. In this edition, preparing a spell is a completely different thing from being able to cast it. Sorcerers, Bards, and Warlocks don't prepare spells at all. (That is replaced by the known spells limit.) This feat doesn't grant an extra slot, so it wouldn't overpower Warlocks casting mechanic in the way you seem to think it would. This feat doesn't even grant an extra spell known for Sorcerers, Bards, and Warlocks. It would allow a single spell they already know to gain 1 metamagic effect and be cast at +1 level, I don't think that is unbalanced. Also, if any class has the potential to abuse this feat, it's the Wizard since (s)he could use this feat to power up one of the spells that are at-will thanks to the Spell Mastery feature at 18th level.

I do like the idea, and I think that adding a metamagic effect like that is worth a feat. Nice work.

Dyhmas
2014-09-15, 11:15 AM
I'm a little confused about the wording of this feat. In this edition, preparing a spell is a completely different thing from being able to cast it. Sorcerers, Bards, and Warlocks don't prepare spells at all. (That is replaced by the known spells limit.) This feat doesn't grant an extra slot, so it wouldn't overpower Warlocks casting mechanic in the way you seem to think it would. This feat doesn't even grant an extra spell known for Sorcerers, Bards, and Warlocks. It would allow a single spell they already know to gain 1 metamagic effect and be cast at +1 level, I don't think that is unbalanced. Also, if any class has the potential to abuse this feat, it's the Wizard since (s)he could use this feat to power up one of the spells that are at-will thanks to the Spell Mastery feature at 18th level.

I do like the idea, and I think that adding a metamagic effect like that is worth a feat. Nice work.

Thank you for your comments.

Firstly, regarding prepared spellcasting, altough different, it still exist, both for the Wizard and the Cleric, for example, who have a limited number os spells they may have prepared per day/long rest (level + spellcasting ability modifier). so that second line is basically meant to allow those casters to always have that spell ready.

Secondly, indeed, the feat doesn't interact at all with the Warlock, wicch is fine, since I think they don't fit together well. Still, adding that a Warlock can't use this feat is just a way to make things clear.

Thirdly, being able to cast a 1st level spell (for example) at-will may be broken. Now, making said spell slightly stronger, isn't broken at all. What I mean to say is that I don't think that this feat is responsible for abuses of that class ability. You're right in the respect that is worsens any possible abuse of that feature...but then again, I think that may be OK, since it still costs you a feat to do so. I may have to change that in the future, we'll see...

Again, thank you for your comments!

Now, about the feat itself: yesterday I had the chance to see it in play, since my player leveled up and took the feat to improve his beloved Magic Missiles. If looking only at that specific spell the feat seem ok. I'd need to see it's interaction with other spells that can vastly benefit from a specific metamagic to check wether it is unbalanced or not.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

rlc
2014-09-15, 11:16 AM
this is great. mostly because i had the exact same idea and it came out basically the same. in my version, i also mentioned that you would expend the spell slot or points of one level less than you'd actually be casting the spell (so casting it at say 6th level from a 5th level spell slot, or whatever's appropriate).

Dyhmas
2014-09-15, 11:26 AM
this is great. mostly because i had the exact same idea and it came out basically the same. in my version, i also mentioned that you would expend the spell slot or points of one level less than you'd actually be casting the spell (so casting it at say 6th level from a 5th level spell slot, or whatever's appropriate).

Heh, great minds think alike! :smalltongue:

Anyway, my version does just that, only a bit different, should you cast your Favorite Spell as an 8th level spell, it'll have the effect as if casted from a 9th level spell slot. It's the same, only your version changes the spell slot expended while mine just increases the power to the next spell level.

I avoided your version mainly to avoid the question: would this turn a 1st level spell into a cantrip when casting?
I know, that question might never have appeared...still, I wanted to avoid it.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

SaintRidley
2014-09-15, 12:54 PM
Although your version raises the question of "What happens if you cast it from a 9th level slot?"

rlc
2014-09-15, 02:15 PM
I avoided your version mainly to avoid the question: would this turn a 1st level spell into a cantrip when casting?
I know, that question might never have appeared...still, I wanted to avoid it.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

nah, i just left some stuff out of the thread for simplicity. the original wording was "you can cast a spell that scales with spell level at one spell level higher than you normally would, using the spell slot or spell points that you would have originally used to cast it," so casting a spell that uses a slot as one that doesn't is disqualified (as are scaling cantrips, but i would probably still allow doing 5d8 damage with ray of frost at level 17 instead of 4d8, because that's really not that big of a deal). i also made it a once per short rest racial thing instead of a feat so it even makes sense to do things like cast inflict wounds as a 10th level spell in a 9th level slot without it being too powerful, but that's all just my own taste.

DiBastet
2014-09-16, 11:24 AM
What happens if you cast it from a 9th level slot?

You get a 10th level Magic Missile. That actually sounds awesome.

Steel Mirror
2014-09-16, 12:10 PM
Just wanted to chip in that this looks like a cool option for your caster who just wants to find one spell he likes and stick to it. Good man, magic missile was good enough for a wizard in OD&D, by Rory it should be good enough for mages these days!

I don't have any thoughts on the mechanics really, but maybe you could also allow the person who buys the feat to "customize" the spell's visual appearance? Something like: "-The spell's visual appearance (if any) is tailored to the caster's personal preference. The caster can customize the color, shape, and other superficial qualities to his specification, for instance changing magic missiles into a barrage of flaming dragon shapes, or altering a lightning bolt into a crackling black column of anti-light. This has no mechanical effect on damage types or other effects of the spell, nor may it be used to obscure the source of the spell or make it harder to detect when it is being cast. The caster chooses how the spell manifests when this feat is chosen, rather than each time it is cast."

Might be more trouble than it's worth, and in many groups a spellcaster can do this with pretty much any spell he casts anyways, but I thought adding it to the feat might make the person who chose it feel like their Favorite Spell is even more 'theirs'.

Surrealistik
2014-09-16, 12:16 PM
Looks good to me, though I think it should indeed work with Warlock casting, and should require second level casting as a prerequisite.

Probably the most imbal thing about the feat overall is its synergy with Counterspell.

Dyhmas
2014-09-16, 04:44 PM
@SaintRidley & Dibastet

Hehe, indeed, that could be awesome, yet broken...as in "not in the rules" broken. I'll probably add a line to prevent that. Gimme a few minutes to work something up.

@SteelMirror

Thanks for the input!
I thought of something pretty similar, that'd make any creature have more difficulty to indetify wich spell you're casting, since it would look so unusual, but I ended up scrapping the idea, as that seemed to bloat the feat a lot. Perhaps that'd fit another feat, altho applying to all your spells, then. "Themed Casting"? Don't know...

@Surrealistik

As I mentioned before, I merely don't think the feat fits well with Warlock. That might be just me, of course, so go ahead and use it with your Warlock, if you'd like! Having said that, I've been working on a different feat that'd apply special effects to your spells whenever you cast one of the specific spells given by your Patron. How about that?

Regarding Counterspell, I must admit I haven't checked every spell in the book, yet...so I'll go there now and see what the fuss is all about. However, I do think it seems fair to let that spell be a little unbalanced with this feat, so long as the player is doing that due to roleplay and not powergaming...as in, if he's a hunter of evil mages, for example, Counterspell sure is usefull, right? I'll look into it, anyway!

EDIT: After reading Counterspell I must agree with you that picking it as a Favorite Spell is unbalanced, but I gotta say it has notihn to do with the feat, really, as the spell is already vastly superior to many (if not all) 3rd level spells. It really is just too good, IMO. Having said that, I don't know how to approach this. I'd rather not make a list of allowed spells so I think this would be a case of "sit with the player and discuss it calmly"...I know, terrifying, right?

-----------------------------------------------------

Now, onto the feat itself!
An unexpected effect to this feat is that my player wants to make a new spell, something not necessarily more powerfull, but more versatile than Magic Missiles, in order to have his character know for that specific spell and not for being "that guy that can cast magic missile pretty well". I'm all for it and hopefully he'll come up with something good. If he does, I'll be sure to post it here, if anyone would prefer to use his spell with this feat.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

Dyhmas
2014-09-17, 07:44 AM
Made a few minor edits:

-increased the pre-requisite to 2nd level casting, as per Dibastet and Surrealistik's suggestions.

-added a line to prevent 10th level magic missiles. While that indeed sounds awesome, I'd rather not be the guy who created 10th level spells...too much responsability.

-changed the wording a bit, in order to make the effects clearer. No entirely happy with the result. I'll probably work on it a bit more later.

Currently checking my player's homebrewed spell. Once I'm done with it, I'll post here, cause it really seems to be a cool concept with a lot of versatility, wich may interest some.

Brew on!

-Dyhmas

Groggen
2015-09-27, 07:07 PM
Hi. Hope you don't mind, but I made an item to use as treasure in my campaign from this.

My first spellbook

A small leatherbound book the size of a post-it, containing only empty pages.
Requires attunement

To attune to this item you must cast your favourite spell from your class list (excludes domain spells and similar) 3 times while holding this small book in your hand. Only spells cast during the daytime counts.

(For each casting this way more and more of a «connect the dots-picture» is revealed. When finished, the picture shows, in color, what the spell looks like (player chooses & describes).

Then the bullet points from your feat, although I've limited it to up to 3rd level spells and included Empowered spell in the "restricted" list.

I have a cleric, druid and paladin in my campaign; currently level 6, any ideas on how to rate this versus other magic items? Not really sure when to give it...

Anyway, thanks for the great material :smallsmile:

Flashy
2015-09-29, 04:21 PM
I'm really fond of this feat in theory but there are actually quite a number of cases that are pretty broken, mostly because of the free metamagic.

Shield + Extend: Shield is now a +5 to AC for 2 rounds.
Dissonant Whispers + Heightened: 4d6 psychic damage, feared for one round, disadvantage on the saving throw.
Inflict Wounds + Distant: Inflict Wounds is now 4d10 necrotic damage with a 30' range.
Hold Person + Heightened: Hold Person now affects minimum 2 people, one of whom will have disadvantage on the saving throw.
Animate Dead: The metamagic is actually unimportant for this one but Animate Dead now raises 3 skeletons or zombies from a 3rd level slot. Four if the character is a Necromancer Wizard.
Vampiric Touch + Distant: Vampiric Touch is now 4d6 necrotic damage in 30' every round for 1 minute, healing the caster for half the damage dealt.

manny2510
2015-09-29, 05:42 PM
I'm really fond of this feat in theory but there are actually quite a number of cases that are pretty broken, mostly because of the free metamagic.

Shield + Extend: Shield is now a +5 to AC for 2 rounds.
Dissonant Whispers + Heightened: 4d6 psychic damage, feared for one round, disadvantage on the saving throw.
Inflict Wounds + Distant: Inflict Wounds is now 4d10 necrotic damage with a 30' range.
Hold Person + Heightened: Hold Person now affects minimum 2 people, one of whom will have disadvantage on the saving throw.
Animate Dead: The metamagic is actually unimportant for this one but Animate Dead now raises 3 skeletons or zombies from a 3rd level slot. Four if the character is a Necromancer Wizard.
Vampiric Touch + Distant: Vampiric Touch is now 4d6 necrotic damage in 30' every round for 1 minute, healing the caster for half the damage dealt.

Many of these things can be done by the sorcerer/favored soul already and still draw from a limited resource. Honestly since they can drain spell slots to use these on different meta-magics they can really go crazy with them, whereas this feat is only as flexible as the spell. Still balanced.

Flashy
2015-09-29, 09:21 PM
Many of these things can be done by the sorcerer/favored soul already and still draw from a limited resource. Honestly since they can drain spell slots to use these on different meta-magics they can really go crazy with them, whereas this feat is only as flexible as the spell. Still balanced.

They do still draw from a limited resource, but spell slots are substantially less limited than sorcery points. Giving out heightened for free is equivalent to 3 sorcery points per casting. A sorcerer could use all their sorcery points to cast Heightened Dissonant Whispers four times, but they'd have to be 12th level to do it. With this feat in play a character could do it as soon as 4th level and the castings would still have an extra d6 damage over the 12th level sorcerer.

My point is not that this premise isn't solid (I like the idea of a character who relies on a signature spell), but that the feat was built considering about as low optimization a combination as is possible. An extra Magic Missile + Empowered isn't anything to write home about, but there are a lot of combinations that start to mess with the way the spell system works. Two extra undead per slot level of Animate Dead is nuts. Always on disadvantage on a spell's saving throw is nuts. The ability to do 4d10 necrotic damage in 30' with a first level spell is nuts.


A single classed sorcerer could indeed do some of the things I mentioned but they're paying so much more for them that it's not a reasonable comparison.

Hold Person for two targets with heightened costs a 3rd level slot and 3 sorcery points. A character with this feat needs only a 2nd level slot.
Vampiric Touch at range with 4d6 damage costs a 4th level slot and 1 sorcery point. A character with this feat needs only a 3rd level slot, and doesn't have to be a death domain Favored Soul to pull it off.
Inflict Wounds at range with 4d10 damage costs a 2nd level slot and 1 sorcery point. A character with this feat needs only a 1st level slot, and doesn't require a one level dip in some other class.
Two round Shield is pretty freely available, that was a bad example.


EDIT: I also only just realized how old this thread is. My bad!

Max Caysey
2015-10-04, 10:28 AM
What edition is this?

JNAProductions
2015-10-04, 10:41 AM
5E. It has the 5E tag, so I'm assuming you're on mobile?

Max Caysey
2015-10-04, 12:23 PM
5E. It has the 5E tag, so I'm assuming you're on mobile?

Oh... wow... did not see that. How odd. My bad! :smallredface: