Improved Crit and Keen?

[Black Mage]

I'm curious what everyones' opinion on Improved Critical and Keen is. Do you think they should stack? Improved Crit is supposed to be your skill and knowledge with your blade, knowing how and where to hit someone so it hurts more. Keen is magically making your sharper and more dangerous, making it more likely to damage that vital spot on an enemy.

I personally think it should stack, and in all of my games I let it stack. What about everyone else here?

[Dhavaer]

I do think they should stack. Now that Vorpal doesn't trigger on a crit, it doesn't seem to be a balance issue.

[jlousivy]

12-20(did i get that right?) flashion--- sure it seems really good, but as dhavaer said, vorpral doesn't happen on anything but a natural 20. Besides, you're giving the fighter types a little bit of a bump... any problems with that?

Besides, you still have to hit in order for it to possibly critical

[ishi]

Our group has always houseruled that the two stack. It's not unbalancing or even overpowered, and it makes sense, as you mentioned.

[Krellen]

3.0 Fighter/Weapon Master with a Falchion crits on a 10. While there's supposed to be a measure of "balance" in weapons with relative crit ranges, base damage and damage multipliers, high-level fighters break this badly, due to the large amount of bonus damage available to them. The fighter's +25 to damage doesn't seem too bad until it's +50 to damage half the time - and most of those being the times he actually hits.

I don't think it's a balance for vorpal, but for that. The 20th-level Weapon Master in my 3.0 campaign regularly outdamaged energy admixtured - 20d6 - acid/fireballs in a single round.

[Douglas]

Are you seriously saying that its a bad thing for fighters to outdamage wizards? That's the one thing fighters have a decent chance of doing better than an equally optimized mage. Don't take it away from them.

[ZekeArgo]

3.0 Fighter/Weapon Master with a Falchion crits on a 10. While there's supposed to be a measure of "balance" in weapons with relative crit ranges, base damage and damage multipliers, high-level fighters break this badly, due to the large amount of bonus damage available to them. The fighter's +25 to damage doesn't seem too bad until it's +50 to damage half the time - and most of those being the times he actually hits.

I don't think it's a balance for vorpal, but for that. The 20th-level Weapon Master in my 3.0 campaign regularly outdamaged energy admixtured - 20d6 - acid/fireballs in a single round.

Well yeah your going to outdamage crappy blasting... its blasting (crap) which is being done *poorly*(even crappier)

Nevermind that it runs into the same problems that rogues face with crit-immune opponents.

Let fighters at least have some fun, it isn't like they're hurting game balance.

[Zincorium]

3.0 disciple of dispater, imp. critical, and bladed gauntlets. Technically, it still works, since DoD and bladed gauntlets weren't updated and DoD lists what it does (imp critical) and doesn't stack with (keen) specifically, but I have enough respect for DMs to not, ever, try this. Plus the book of vile darkness should never be let into players hands in the first place, the only reason I have a copy is because I DM a lot too.

Here's a rundown, keeping in mind the multiplier stacking rules, i.e. a x3 and a x2 is only a x4 total, not x6

17-20 = 4 numbers

x3 from iron power at 8th = 12 numbers

x4 from imp critical = 16 numbers

16 numbers = 5-20 crit range. You score a threat if you hit, pretty much.

[ZekeArgo]

3.0 disciple of dispater, imp. critical, and bladed gauntlets. Technically, it still works, since DoD and bladed gauntlets weren't updated and DoD lists what it does (imp critical) and doesn't stack with (keen) specifically, but I have enough respect for DMs to not, ever, try this. Plus the book of vile darkness should never be let into players hands in the first place, the only reason I have a copy is because I DM a lot too.

Bladed gauntlets were errataed a while ago, either 18 or 19-20. Though my guess is on 19

[Spiryt]

I think that maybe good time to ask few questions. Maybe im searching poorly but i cannot find one aswer:

- Are threat throws ( ex. 16, 18,19) with keen falchion automatic hits?
Or only natural 20 is automatic hit?
- How doubling the threat works? I assume that it doubles range.
So if he have mentioned falchion (18,19,20 - 3 numbers) we count it x 2 (to 15,16,17,18,19,20- 6 numbers). Although in Neverwinter nights I keen just add two numbers ( from 19-20 to 17-20, then improved crit to 15-20). However, NN I ws on 3.0

Lot depends on this qeustion. If this bonuses will stack, we can create falchion which autohit half attacks. With some high power attack...

[ishi]

- Are threat throws ( ex. 16, 18,19) with keen falchion automatic hits?
Or only natural 20 is automatic hit?
- How doubling the threat works? I assume that it doubles range.
So if he have mentioned falchion (18,19,20 - 3 numbers) we count it x 2 (to 15,16,17,18,19,20- 6 numbers). Although in Neverwinter nights I keen just add two numbers ( from 19-20 to 17-20, then improved crit to 15-20). However, NN I ws on 3.0


Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

You get to double the threat range but remember that in D&D, when you double and then double, you add the multipliers, don't multiply them: Improved Crit + Keen + Falchion is 12-20, not 9-20.

[Borogove]

I think that maybe good time to ask few questions. Maybe im searching poorly but i cannot find one aswer:

- Are threat throws ( ex. 16, 18,19) with keen falchion automatic hits?
Or only natural 20 is automatic hit?
- How doubling the threat works? I assume that it doubles range.
So if he have mentioned falchion (18,19,20 - 3 numbers) we count it x 2 (to 15,16,17,18,19,20- 6 numbers). Although in Neverwinter nights I keen just add two numbers ( from 19-20 to 17-20, then improved crit to 15-20). However, NN I ws on 3.0

Lot depends on this qeustion. If this bonuses will stack, we can create falchion which autohit half attacks. With some high power attack...

only natural 20s auto-hit.
doubling applies to the base range, so 19-20 doubled once is 17-20, and twice is 15-20.

[Tellah]

Critical threats are not automatic hits. Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. You've got the numbers on doubling crit range right, though; it would indeed threaten a critical on a 15 or higher. You still need to confirm it, though, which is why a weapon with a larger critical multiplier and smaller critical range is preferable when fighting opponents whose ACs are significantly higher than your attack bonus.

[Zincorium]

Bladed gauntlets were errataed a while ago, either 18 or 19-20. Though my guess is on 19

Okay, that's good, although I have no idea where the errata is. There is a reason 18-20 is the maximum crit range, and x4 the maximum multiplier.

[Spiryt]

Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit.

You get to double the threat range but remember that in D&D, when you double and then double, you add the multipliers, don't multiply them: Improved Crit + Keen + Falchion is 12-20, not 9-20.

Thanks. This way it not look too powerful. And indeed, the fact that very sharp weapon somehow cannot be combined with very skillful wielder, is... strange.

[Pocket lint]

On the topic of keen, I've found that a Scabbard of Keen Edges is a lot more cost-effective than having keen on the weapon itself. I buy them first chance I get if the DM will allow them.

[Bears With Lasers]

3.0 Fighter/Weapon Master with a Falchion crits on a 10. While there's supposed to be a measure of "balance" in weapons with relative crit ranges, base damage and damage multipliers, high-level fighters break this badly, due to the large amount of bonus damage available to them. The fighter's +25 to damage doesn't seem too bad until it's +50 to damage half the time - and most of those being the times he actually hits.

I don't think it's a balance for vorpal, but for that. The 20th-level Weapon Master in my 3.0 campaign regularly outdamaged energy admixtured - 20d6 - acid/fireballs in a single round.


That's because throwing 20d6 at 20th level isn't very good. Your fighter should outdamage your wizard, if both are trying equally hard.
Damage is one of the few things melee types can do. Why would you want to reduce their capabilities in that area? Critmasters have a solid damage output, at non-insignificant investment. It's no good against crit-immune creatures or heavy-fortification-armor-wearing NPCs, unlike various charging damage multipliers, which work on everything. So, what's the problem here again?

Keen and Imp. Crit should stack. It wouldn't be overpowered.

[Krellen]

Are you seriously saying that its a bad thing for fighters to outdamage wizards?
I'm talking about a burst spell doing 20d6 damage to multiple targets - usually around three. So, yes, I think it's bad a fighter can manage more than 60d6 damage in a single round. It tends to make them do silly things like go toe-to-toe with a dragon. And win.


Well yeah your going to outdamage crappy blasting... its blasting (crap) which is being done *poorly*(even crappier)
Uh, what blasting option for a 7th-level slot outdamages 20d6 in a 20' radius? We're talking pure damage, not battlefield control here. So, please, educate me: what 7th level spell outperforms 20d6 damage?

[Everyman]

Mathematically and realistically, there is no reason why Keen and Imp. Crit. should not stack. They are neither the same type of modifier, nor do they come from the same source.

However, I do believe that there should be a point at which a weapon can not be made more "effective". A weapon that will critically hit 50% of the time seems far too efficient for a game.
...
Choices.

I think I'll keep the modifiers non-stackable. I don't think it adds enough to the game to go through and consider the ramifications to how this could effective EVERY source material printed (and soon to be printed). This could probably raise a few CRs for some encounters. However, feel free to house rule it yourself, though.

[Orzel]

Imp Crit and Keen should stack. The real problem is when you get those crazy on cit hit effects. When all you hits provoke a crit, standard and full attack becomes unlimited stun, 5d6 damage, frozen, frightened, turned into a monkey.

[Falrin]

Telling blow. (PHB II?)


Lets rogues add sneak damage on a critical hit.

Improved crit + keep rapier is a lot of sneaking damage.

[Bears With Lasers]

I'm talking about a burst spell doing 20d6 damage to multiple targets - usually around three. So, yes, I think it's bad a fighter can manage more than 60d6 damage in a single round. It tends to make them do silly things like go toe-to-toe with a dragon. And win.
Fighters can do more damage to a single creature. A fighter should be doing more than 20d6; it's unlikely that they'll be doing 60d6--crit or no crit. At level 20, before crits, 2d6+, oh, let's say 40 is about right. 47 on average. Call it 50. Multiple attacks mean that it's *3 to *5, depending on rolls and AC, so 150 to 250 damage.
20d6 to three creatures, assuming they all fail their saves and have no resistances, is 60d6, which is... 180 total.
And then you get to the fact that adding up an area-of-effect spell's damage is pointless and misleading (there are 40 kobolds in the area of effect! 400d6! Wooooooo!). More single-target damage is more valuable than less multi-target damage.
In other words, the fighter can already do more damage than a wizard.... and he still can't go toe-to-toe with a dragon. Adding 12-20 x2 crits to that won't change anything.
Incidentally, why would fighters being able to ACTUALLY FIGHT a dragon be a bad thing?


Uh, what blasting option for a 7th-level slot outdamages 20d6 in a 20' radius? We're talking pure damage, not battlefield control here. So, please, educate me: what 7th level spell outperforms 20d6 damage?The 20' radius thing is misleading. First of all, a simple energy-subbed Delayed Blast Fireball wouldn't be affected by multiple resistances (some high-level critters resist both fire and acid). Take something like, oh, a Split Ray, Twinned Scorching Ray. Three rays, add a fourth with Split, becomes 8. 8 rays of 4d6 each. 32d6 to a single target, which is much better than 20d6 to two or three, because dropping one target at a time is a lot better than trying to drop several.
Or try a Split Ray disintegrate for a level 8 slot. 40d6 on each failed save.

Basically, "60d6" is totally misleading, because it's 20d6 to each creature... which is a lot worse than hitting a creature for 2d6+40 three to five times a round as the fighter can do, or hitting a single creature for 32d6.


Mathematically and realistically, there is no reason why Keen and Imp. Crit. should not stack. They are neither the same type of modifier, nor do they come from the same source.

However, I do believe that there should be a point at which a weapon can not be made more "effective". A weapon that will critically hit 50% of the time seems far too efficient for a game.
Far too efficient? How? It won't make the falchion fighter more efficient than a mounted charger, or a battlefield controller.


...
Choices.

I think I'll keep the modifiers non-stackable. I don't think it adds enough to the game to go through and consider the ramifications to how this could effective EVERY source material printed (and soon to be printed). This could probably raise a few CRs for some encounters. However, feel free to house rule it yourself, though.There really isn't anything that could have the kinds of repercussions you're talking about.


Imp Crit and Keen should stack. The real problem is when you get those crazy on cit hit effects. When all you hits provoke a crit, standard and full attack becomes unlimited stun, 5d6 damage, frozen, frightened, turned into a monkey.
Those "on-crit effects" all have low-DC saves. By the time you've got your crit range pumped up, they're not an issue.


Telling blow. (PHB II?)
Lets rogues add sneak damage on a critical hit.

Improved crit + keep rapier is a lot of sneaking damage.
Rogues can already get that damage just by flanking. I liked Telling Blow a lot when I first saw it, but it's really pretty useless in a party.

[jlousivy]

what's so bad with a fighter being able to go toe-to-toe with a dragon and win if the dragon is stupid enough to be within range of the fighter?

[Krellen]

A fighter should be doing more than 20d6; it's unlikely that they'll be doing 60d6--crit or no crit.
Oh, he was. 4d4 - he was critting half the time, remember, and with a 10-20 crit range, you're critting nearly every time you hit - +50 or so, with an additional +1d6 and +1d10 for the burst effect on the weapon. So 4d4+1d6+1d10+50, for an average of 69. Even if he misses once a round, he's still doing over 200 damage - and that's assuming he didn't use his Improved Multiplier ability or Maximum Damage ability in that round.

Added to the Wizard's blast damage, he then typically got to Cleave too, pushing his damage near - or over - 300 in a single round.

Because of the ridiculously high amount of critical hits he scored, the Weapon Master was effectively artillery. Balance-wise, it made challenging the group difficult. Flavour-wise, it was wonderful; Akbar earned his title of "One Man Army".


32d6 to a single target, which is much better than 20d6 to two or three, because dropping one target at a time is a lot better than trying to drop several.
Damage to a single target isn't an effective use of a wizard's spell, because he has a fighter that benefits from dropping foes. The wizard's blast damage should soften targets, allowing the fighter to finish it off and get a bonus attack (or two) from Cleave/Great Cleave that round. However, this isn't a thread for that discussion.

[jlousivy]

challenging the group difficult?
slow. now he's doing one attack.
fly. now he can't reach them without some magical aid.
forcecage. ---scratch that it's just mean.

basicly-- a fighter SHOULD be able to wreak havoc on people if he is fighting them toe-to-toe. The answer to survive such: mobility or counter-mobility.

edit: as for single target damage not being an effective use of a wizard's spell-- you are right. However it expands further, damaging spells aren't effective uses of a wizard's spell. Let the fighter deal the direct damage, the wizard can do other things.

back onto the topic-- yes, if a DM lets a fighter consistantly go toe-to-toe with monsters without enfeebling or some defensive measures, imp crit and keen can become slightly 'unbalancing' but no more than many core abilities granted to other classes namely : wildshape, shapechange, CoDzilla, polymorph, etc

[Bears With Lasers]

Oh, he was. 4d4 - he was critting half the time, remember, and with a 10-20 crit range, you're critting nearly every time you hit - +50 or so, with an additional +1d6 and +1d10 for the burst effect on the weapon. So 4d4+1d6+1d10+50, for an average of 69. Even if he misses once a round, he's still doing over 200 damage - and that's assuming he didn't use his Improved Multiplier ability or Maximum Damage ability in that round.
By bad on the 60d6--it looks like a lot, but it's not that much.
At high levels, the energy damage from weapons will rarely bypass ER, but let's count it. Okay, he's doing over 200 damage.
Why's this a problem? As we've said--the fighter should be able to outdamage the wizard.


Added to the Wizard's blast damage, he then typically got to Cleave too, pushing his damage near - or over - 300 in a single round.Um, Cleave? Why were high-CR monsters or NPCs in cleavin' range of each other on a regular basis?


Because of the ridiculously high amount of critical hits he scored, the Weapon Master was effectively artillery. Balance-wise, it made challenging the group difficult. Flavour-wise, it was wonderful; Akbar earned his title of "One Man Army".Are you seriously telling me that your fighter (who was doing less damage than a better fighter build could do without the Keen/Imp. Crit falchion) was making challenging the group difficult?
What exactly were they fighting? Warrior NPCs and nothing but?
How about flying creatures? Things with SLAs? Teleporting demons? Flyby-attacking dragons and other monsters? Spellcasting NPCs? There's fifty bajillion ways to make life really, really hard for a fighter. Normally, high-level fighters have a hard enough time getting a full attack in at all.
And you were having trouble challenging him? Maybe you should've had fights consist of something other than "lots of weak melee enemies all within fifteen feet of each other", then.


Damage to a single target isn't an effective use of a wizard's spell, because he has a fighter that benefits from dropping foes. The wizard's blast damage should soften targets, allowing the fighter to finish it off and get a bonus attack (or two) from Cleave/Great Cleave that round. However, this isn't a thread for that discussion.Great Cleave?
Great Cleave stops coming into play after level, what, two or three? Enemies just plain won't be in reach, if they are, you won't hit every time, if they are, you won't drop them every time. 20d6 won't wear them down enough for a single hit to kill them, unless you have a lot of weak opponents... in which case, yeah, they'll go down easily. That's what they're supposed to do--they're weak opponents.
When you're dealing with strong opponents, that's when you want to be at your most effective. And then, single-target damage becomes more important, because there's only one of'em (or two, out of multi-target damage range).

[Krellen]

What exactly were they fighting?
In a dungeon, as the game is designed.

[jlousivy]

... in a dungon as the game is designed?--- in the monster manual there are plenty of different envirionments in which you fight a monster, and in a dungeon--- that's very unclear, it is possible to have enormous rooms in a dungeon that work as effectively on the outside (think the great hall in the mines of moria from lord of the rings) or possibly in really close quarters. That being said: yes, a fighter will be more useful in close-quarters combat.

As for the game being designed to fight in dungeons... i can't even remotely agree to that except to say that it happens

[MeklorIlavator]

Hmm.. I vote on Keen and Improved Crit stacking, but it would defiantly make burst weapons a bit more viable.

And why is taking on a dragon and wining a bad thing. Isn't that one of the standard archetypes of fantasy? You know, that one that doesn't work in DnD, the dragon slaying knight.

[Foolosophy]

. So, please, educate me: what 7th level spell outperforms 20d6 damage?

Probably no blasting spell (except for twinned etc. rays maybe).
But why blast when you have (core only!) Prismatic Spray (insane,petrified,sent do a random plane or killed on a roll of 4-7 unless the save is made) , Finger of Death (save vs. die, there are better spell but used cleverly this is still way better than 20d6 fire/acid damage), Insanity etc.

And if you insist on the "mage weakens, fighter kills"-thingy...ok Mass Hold Person + Coup de Grace > 20d6+Cleave...

And we have excluded costly spells like Limited Wish and Forcecage and ignored any non-srd wiz/sorc material here...hell i'd prefer some plane-shift trickery, 1d3 summoned chain devils and some 6th level spells lover a pimped fireball

[Bears With Lasers]

In a dungeon, as the game is designed.

Funny, and here I thought given the variety of "find them in this kind of terrain" entries for monsters, D&D was designed to happen in lots of different places.

And that D&D dungeons could have giant rooms, chasms, magic, et cetera.
How about some incorporeal undead popping in and out of the walls? How about enemies with the sense to get out of the 10' by 10' by 10' room and into the 60 by 60 by 60 one? And teleporting demons and spellcasters who can duck behind cover? Yeah. Even more trouble in a dungeon. Seriously, what happens when a monster with an SLA or a caster throws up a Wall of X and blocks off all but the top half-foot of a corridor? He can still cast spells over it, the fighter's screwed. What happens when there's a room big enough to let monsters fly? A monster with lots of reach and Awesome Blow? SLAs or (Su) abilities that require will saves?

Even if every fight in your game happened in a dungeon, there's still tons of ways to challenge a fighter, using nothing but core enemies. And, of course, just toss a flying monster at him next time he goes outdoors...

[Krellen]

Even if every fight in your game happened in a dungeon, there's still tons of ways to challenge a fighter, using nothing but core enemies. And, of course, just toss a flying monster at him next time he goes outdoors...
Yeah, we had some of that, too. Of course, the flying monster outside was what led me to banning irresisitible dance from my game, seeing as how that single spell took down a CR 20 dragon without a save.

But the bulk of the game took place indoors, even if some of the indoors were fairly large rooms. Tight spaces and multiple enemies still happened often enough to show why, at least in regards to the Weapon Master PrC - which has been removed, I'll note - stacking critical ranges were bad.

Critting on a 12 is almost as bad as critting on a 10, too.

[Bears With Lasers]

Ah, yes. Irresistible Dance. Much better use of a spell slot than Horrid Wilting or whatever.
Even with tight spaces and multiple enemies, there should've been plenty of ways to frustrate the fighter.

Weapon Master was more problematic than Keen+Imp. Crit, but your problem seems to boil down to the fighter does too much damage. Without the WM, that's lessened, but seriously--doing damage is about the only thing the Melee Guy can do. Shouldn't he be able to do it well?
(And he's got other, better ways of doing it now, too.)

[Draz74]

Yeah, we had some of that, too. Of course, the flying monster outside was what led me to banning irresisitible dance from my game, seeing as how that single spell took down a CR 20 dragon without a save.


No save, but it does require overcoming spell resistance, and getting a caster into Touch range of a dragon.

Arcane Reach + Irresistable Dance + Assay Resistance: Yes, this is overpowered. But I think Assay Resistance is a bigger problem than either of the other two. Even here, though, there are at least a few defenses, like Mind Blank or Spell Turning, that can save a potential victim, so it's still not the most broken combo in the game.

[Bears With Lasers]

Dragon SR is... really not that terribly dangerous. An Old red dragon has an SR of... 24. Which is a joke to a level 20 spellcasters, who likely can't fail to beat it (+1 CL from an ioun stone, +2 from Spell Penetration).