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Pocket lint
2007-03-10, 07:30 PM
One thing every melee-optimised character hates is flying creatures. So the question for this thread is how to bring them down to your level, so to speak. I'm looking more for variety than the "best" method, since circumstances and capabilities will be different in each situation.

The flying things can obviously be either wizards or simply flying beasties who need to flap those wings. Wizards are easily brought down by a dispel magic, assuming you have one available, but you might not. What else? I am not sure if there are even rules for throwing a net over something. Would Evard's spiked black tentacles work, or are they too feeble?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-10, 07:33 PM
Frankly, besides a couple of spells with saving throws, there's no real way to bring flyers down. Throwing a net at them sure won't do it. Black Tentacles would grapple them, but if they're grappled they're still in the air.

Orzel
2007-03-10, 07:38 PM
Really heavy bolas

Everyman
2007-03-10, 07:40 PM
It's sad but true.

Of course, I've found tanglefoot bags work well with the flying beasties. Wizards (and "floaters") require either flying magic on your side or a good ranged weapon (perhaps with some sort of enhancment that can disrupt their flight patterns). I think CW has some weapon enhancements that would prove very disrupt to an airborne creature (explosive or the enhancment that essentially starts a bullrush).

Death_Knight
2007-03-10, 07:50 PM
I actually played a Kobold with the Savage Species 'Winged' Template in a campaign, once (Urds rule).. my DM's most common method of forcing me to the ground was simply to have combat occur in areas with low ceilings, or at least so low that flying wouldn't get me more than five feet off the ground.

Thiel
2007-03-10, 08:08 PM
I usually houserule that if you depend on wings to sustain your flight and you get tangled in something, be it a net or whatever, you drop. Same goes with grappling In both cases I allow for reflex saves to soften the landing.

Saph
2007-03-10, 08:13 PM
One thing every melee-optimised character hates is flying creatures. So the question for this thread is how to bring them down to your level, so to speak. I'm looking more for variety than the "best" method, since circumstances and capabilities will be different in each situation.

The flying things can obviously be either wizards or simply flying beasties who need to flap those wings. Wizards are easily brought down by a dispel magic, assuming you have one available, but you might not. What else? I am not sure if there are even rules for throwing a net over something. Would Evard's spiked black tentacles work, or are they too feeble?

Carry a ranged weapon. Make it a good one.

Not every monster will allow you to fight under favourable conditions. This is why over-specialising your character is a bad idea. A melee fighter who can also fight in several other ways at different ranges is much better than someone who can do melee and nothing else.

- Saph

Pocket lint
2007-03-10, 08:15 PM
One thing that comes to mind is to build a harpoon - a barbed javelin with an attached silk rope. Then you need a strong fighter, a to-hit roll and enough guys pulling on the rope to overpower the spell. 2 guys should do it for the Fly spell, but the Levitate is more troublesome, since you can easily lift a normal-sized party once you get up in caster level. At least it would probably hurt like a SOB...

It seems kind of funny that there's no good way. Dispel for wizards, as mentioned, but the beasties? The wing-dependant ones can be downed by Hold Monster, assuming it doesn't make the save.

Maybe you can apply a Reverse Gravity spell, only upside-down?
ETA: If it works "physically", that ought to triple gravity in the area, with corresponding effects to max load and so forth. Won't help the fighters much, since they'll probably get overloaded, but maybe the rogues can play...

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-10, 08:18 PM
Carry a ranged weapon. Make it a good one.

Not every monster will allow you to fight under favourable conditions. This is why over-specialising your character is a bad idea. A melee fighter who can also fight in several other ways at different ranges is much better than someone who can do melee and nothing else.

- Saph

...being good enough with a ranged weapons to be really dangerous to flying monsters requires over-specializing in archery. A typical fighter type can plink away for, I dunno, 1d8+4 a hit, but his ranged AB is lower and 1d8+4 just isn't much.

Orzel
2007-03-10, 08:32 PM
...being good enough with a ranged weapons to be really dangerous to flying monsters requires over-specializing in archery. A typical fighter type can plink away for, I dunno, 1d8+4 a hit, but his ranged AB is lower and 1d8+4 just isn't much.

Not really
All you need is PBS, Rapid and Manyshot. Grabbing a universal damage increasing feat and Greater manyshot also helps.

daggaz
2007-03-10, 10:21 PM
...being good enough with a ranged weapons to be really dangerous to flying monsters requires over-specializing in archery. A typical fighter type can plink away for, I dunno, 1d8+4 a hit, but his ranged AB is lower and 1d8+4 just isn't much.


Heh, unless he has a couple of arrows of ...say... flesh to stone. =) That should bring them down..

Tobrian
2007-03-10, 10:34 PM
The Net spell (like Web but specifically against flyers).
Hold Monster
Dropping a horizontal wall of iron on them? Oh wait, only worked in AD&D, under d20 3.5 it's always vertical. Meh. Ok.

Force Cage?

Sucks that there's no official way short of house rules to just target a creature's wings with spells or weapons.

Ulzgoroth
2007-03-10, 10:42 PM
Not official rules, but All About Movement: Part 5 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) gives directions for tripping fliers. And a whole lot of other flight-intensive scenarios.

Saph
2007-03-11, 06:46 AM
...being good enough with a ranged weapons to be really dangerous to flying monsters requires over-specializing in archery. A typical fighter type can plink away for, I dunno, 1d8+4 a hit, but his ranged AB is lower and 1d8+4 just isn't much.

Better than sitting around on your hands waiting for the monster to land so you can melee it - which it probably won't do unless it's very stupid. Just shoot it and accept that the fight is going to last a while.

- Saph

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-11, 06:50 AM
There's a spell in Warhammer than forces flyers to the ground. Since most Warhammer flyers have appaling non-light movements it basically reverses their maneouvability. That would be useful in dnd.

Were-Sandwich
2007-03-11, 06:59 AM
Bow & Blade by Green Ronin has alchemical arrows that turn into nets in flight. Imagine Tel-Jilad archers, its pretty much like that. They bring them down in one hit.

Thiel
2007-03-11, 08:40 AM
It seems to me that a Ray of Enfeeblement or two should be able to counter a Fly spell, since Fly only lets you carry up to your maximum load.

martyboy74
2007-03-11, 03:40 PM
It seems to me that a Ray of Enfeeblement or two should be able to counter a Fly spell, since Fly only lets you carry up to your maximum load.
Your weight doesn't count against encumberance, and most fliers carry much stuff around on them.

Dr. Weasel
2007-03-11, 03:50 PM
Is a winged mount out of the question? Putting some feats into mounted combat wouldn't hurt most fighters and the other fightingish classes (besides barbarians) get excellent mounts as class abilities.
And I guess harpoons (statted pretty ridiculously in frostburn) would be handy for meleers with the strength and a feat to spare.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-11, 03:59 PM
Sucks that there's no official way short of house rules to just target a creature's wings with spells or weapons.
You're kidding. Sundering wings is a house rule?

magnar
2007-03-11, 08:02 PM
Some things that come to mind:
-Tanglefoot bags. Just love 'em. thrown, catapulted, gnome calculus, mage hand'ed, the list goes on.
-Nets could be used, but flying mounts and magic work best for proper application.
-Wand or other source of Undeniable Gravity (If you want to use Miniatures Handbook)
-As stated above, Net spell, flesh to stone, bolas, or GIANT fishing rod
-There's an entangling bolt or arrow in the huge magic items section of Arms & Equipment
-Forests and artificially erected structures (towers, buildings, long sticks...)
-Long stick with one of the first two mundane items on the end, set against a charge/dive attack

Unfortunately, few of those work against magic fliers.

Alternatively, get yourself up to their level. Fly spells work best, of course, but hang-gliders work as well.
Grapple (or grappling hook/harpoon) them and hang on, tie/glue yourself to them, then swing away.

EDIT: Enlarge person (or monster, if there is such a spell) could work by increasing their weight, either for a fly spell of by the square-cube law... but once they land, you may wish they were still up in the air.
Or, if you have low int/wis, fling yourself at them with a catapult and do the above (preferably with a featherfall caster handy).
With enough handle animal and a good rope/set of reigns, you might even be able to force it to do your will, like you would a wild horse.

RandomNPC
2007-03-11, 10:34 PM
Some things that come to mind:

-Long stick with one of the first two mundane items on the end, set against a charge/dive attack

Grapple (or grappling hook/harpoon) them and hang on, tie/glue yourself to them, then swing away.

with winged critters like an imp that like getting close to hit with the tail and whatnot, that stick idea is the best thing i've ever heard. with non-poisonous things, the grapling hook, when your done you can use it as a gargantuan fish hook.

BCOVertigo
2007-03-11, 10:59 PM
It seems to me that a Ray of Enfeeblement or two should be able to counter a Fly spell, since Fly only lets you carry up to your maximum load.

It's a penalty, not damage. And penalties that come from the same source don't stack they overlap.

Golem
2007-03-11, 11:10 PM
This is, more than likely, going to bug the crud out of people who know what they're talking about, but all the talk of 'Giant Fishing Rods' gave me a bit of a madcap idea for those reliant on wings--Is it possible to use a grappling hook against a distracted target? I know they're ordinarily only used on walls, and the like... perhaps combined with some form of intelligent or sentient rope?

Edit: Didn't see Grappling Hooks were already suggested, sorry...

kpenguin
2007-03-11, 11:17 PM
Well, with the beasties, you can ready an action to attack when they swoop in to attack you (unless they have reach or ranged). You could also try trip it while it swoop down to attack you to knock it down. Tanglefoot bags/nets/bolas might work fine too. Grappling as well. Ready action is a very useful tool.

Draz74
2007-03-11, 11:24 PM
Is a winged mount out of the question? Putting some feats into mounted combat wouldn't hurt most fighters and the other fightingish classes (besides barbarians) get excellent mounts as class abilities.
And I guess harpoons (statted pretty ridiculously in frostburn) would be handy for meleers with the strength and a feat to spare.

If a fighter buys, say, an out-of-the-book Gryphon to ride, at mid/high levels it will be rediculously easy for the opponent to simply kill the mount, dropping the Fighter violently from the sky and hurting his pocketbook too.

Ranger mounts would be better, but still fairly vulnerable.

Paladin mounts are much better than either a Fighter or Ranger can get. A flying mount for a Paladin isn't a bad idea, though it hurts to have a wimpier mount just because of the LA that the wings incur.

kpenguin
2007-03-11, 11:43 PM
Also, wouldn't the fighter get AoAs against a monster that swoops in and attacks? An AoA and a readied attack could be a pretty decent amount of damage.

Geneticist
2007-03-12, 01:36 AM
Does anyone have a good idea of how to describe someone tripping a flying monster? It seems like it would look really cool, but I just can't figure out how...

kpenguin
2007-03-12, 02:27 AM
Hitting the wings would be tripping a flying monster, I believe.

"Your swift leg swipes the wings of the gargoyle, sending it plummeting to the ground"

Ranis
2007-03-13, 09:23 AM
The Rod of Ropes in the Complete Scoundrel is a great way to grab the fliers out of the air.

elliott20
2007-03-13, 09:28 AM
isn't there a rule that states a creature with wings needs to have a certain portion of hitpoints in order to have the strength to maintain flight?

Fixer
2007-03-13, 09:40 AM
I once played a straight melee fighter but he only encountered one instance where he had to fight a flyer and it was a beholder hovering 20 feet in the air. (Cool story about it.)

Readying an action to grapple would work for those flyby attackers. Ranged attack flyers pretty much screw a melee fighter over. For a melee fighter a MUST BUY for magical gear would be something that would allow magical flight. Even a Potion of Fly would help greatly.

PnP Fan
2007-03-13, 10:07 AM
tripping flying monsters: The beautiful thing about creatures that fly with wings is that they require natural forces to stay aloft (even if the amount of wing area is unrealistic). Assuming straight and level flight (or even better, a dive), all you really need is a sharp sudden push down on the nose, or a push up on the tail end, and you've got a monster tumbling head over hooves on the ground. Similarly, animal wings aren't stiff like airplane wings, grabbing one and binding it, even momentarily will create an uneven lift force (normal wing on one side, no lift on the opposite side), and put the creature into a roll maneuver, which at low altitudes could easily put it on the ground.
Conversely, if you have some kind of wind control spell you could put that gust of air underneath on one side of the creature (don't know if any of them allow for that kind of control), you ought to be able to, at least, force a rider to make a ride check, and maybe a natural flier to make some kind of control check.
Not sure about spellborn fliers. Seems like nets could still work, if they can be anchored to something/someone. Also, if your fliers are flying amongst buildings/trees or something similar, it doesn't seem ridiculous to attach them to the side of a building/tree with a tangle foot bag, if they are within 5 ft of the structure.
Just some thoughts. Like the arrow ideas, though they are likely to be a bit expensive, it could be worth it.

cupkeyk
2007-03-13, 02:51 PM
It's a penalty, not damage. And penalties that come from the same source don't stack they overlap.

By that he meant the STR penalty family, I suppose: Rays of Enfeeblement, Escalating Enfeeblement and Exhaustion.

*****

For Low Level, if they are in melee. Readied actions to trip or grapple. Nets, harpoons, bolas, whips, spiked chains, tanglefoot bags. Incapaciatiting spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, the STR penalty rays, Sleep.

For Midlevels, Alter Self or fly. You should yourself be flying. At level 3, the wizard already has access to Alter Self and should have one as a scroll so that the rogue or bard can cast it on himself using UMD, they are not the best fighters but they will do for now. At level five he should send the tank off flying. By level five, the druid can now turn into a dire hawk(races of stone, medium sized flyer) or a desmodu hunting bat(MM2). At 5, the bard now has alter self on his list as well. If grounding the creature is the issue, same tactics as lowlevel but you do not need to ready the actions as you can now take the action up there.

It is vastly at higher levels.

Dark_Wind
2007-03-13, 03:01 PM
I can't believe no one has said this yet:

Have the Wizard cast wingbind. Problem solved. Earthbind works too, though it doesn't entangle to target or cause it to suffer falling damage.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-13, 03:06 PM
Those have fort saves, many fliers' (i.e. dragons') strongest.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-03-13, 03:10 PM
Quall's Feather Tokens.

Seriously.

Ready an action to use the token the next time the dragon tries to perform a fly-by attack on you. Dragon goes to perform the attack, and instead flies snout-first into a sixty-foot tall Oak tree. If this doesn't stop anything but the biggest and baddest (and even then, it should still work) you've got a pretty terrible DM.


Tree

A token that causes a great oak to spring into being (5-foot diameter trunk, 60-foot height, 40-foot top diameter). This is an instantaneous effect.

Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWondrousItem), major creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm); Price 400 gp (tree)

And if I can point something out without killing TOO many catgirls, the tree outlined above would weigh in at roughly 50,000 pounds. Just in case it matters for those who've gone to check the monster weight entries for the various flying critters.

(Actually, I don't like catgirls too much. The exact number I got was 51692.25 pounds, rounding down and to two decimal places, using the information that a Red Oak's mass is 705kg/meter cubed as the base.)

Dark_Wind
2007-03-13, 03:27 PM
Those have fort saves, many fliers' (i.e. dragons') strongest.

Earthbind is a Fort save, yes. Wingbind, however, is a Ref save. Dragons aren't quite as strong in that department, IIRC.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-13, 06:14 PM
isn't there a rule that states a creature with wings needs to have a certain portion of hitpoints in order to have the strength to maintain flight?
Houserule. RAW, losing HP has basically no effect until you hit 0.

magnar
2007-03-15, 06:01 PM
Also try attaching yourself to summoned flying beasts.
And now for the (arguably) most fun idea yet: Miser's Envy, from the Draconomicon. Make them covet your armour, flying in close to grab it or attack you in melee. Better yet, get them to lust over that rock sticking out if the ground, never getting more that 5 feet away from it.

Beleriphon
2007-03-15, 06:06 PM
Really heavy bolas

Actually, this isn't a terribly idea given the rules for flight and what a creature can carry while flying.