Best Blaster?

[Kirion]

I want to play a character that kills people via damaging spells. I don't care so much about long range, short range, melee, I just want to do lots of damage with specifically magic. I assume Sorcerers, with their metamagic, fit the bill very well. However, are there any superior options that I haven't considered? Warlock? Cleric? Druid?

EDIT: I should mention that it's level 3. I can expect to reach around level 8, but level 20 builds don't help my decision any.

[CyberThread]

Best low level consistant damage ? Warlock


I think the best boom boom , still is the sorcerer, especially with metamagic on the table.

[Totema]

I'd actually go Wizard for this role, specifically the Evocation arcane tradition. They get more spells (blasting and otherwise) and more damage out of their blasts. Plus the Spell Mastery ability is a real peach for any dedicated caster. Though there is the issue of getting to that level in the first place.

[Giant2005]

You really want Warlock. At those low levels, you just don't have the spell slots to do a whole lot other than Cantrips and Warlocks have the best Cantrip of the bunch and regaining spell slots on a short rest means you can use them more often.
I'd just go with two levels of Warlock though before moving to either Sorc or Bard. Sorc will be better than Bard for blasting between character levels 3-7 but at character level 8, the Bard pulls ahead by being able to double tap Thunderwave by being mounted on his summoned steed from Find Steed.

[Naanomi]

You really want Warlock. At those low levels, you just don't have the spell slots to do a whole lot other than Cantrips and Warlocks have the best Cantrip of the bunch and regaining spell slots on a short rest means you can use them more often.
I'd just go with two levels of Warlock though before moving to either Sorc or Bard. Sorc will be better than Bard for blasting between character levels 3-7 but at character level 8, the Bard pulls ahead by being able to double tap Thunderwave by being mounted on his summoned steed from Find Steed.
Warlock 2/Sorcerer (Wild) 18 for maximized Eldritch blast?
Probably not 'the best'; but I'm impressed with Cleric 2 (tempest)/Sorcerer 18 (blue dragon) and the impressive amounts of Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning damage it can throw out at silly ranges

[DrLemniscate]

Wizard (Evocation) 14 / Sorcerer (Draconic Ancestry: Fire) 6

Fire Bolt deals 4d10. Wizard 10 lets you add your INT modifier, Sorcerer 6 lets you add our CHA modifier.

So so far, we have 4d10 + 10 if you max out INT and CHA.

Wizard 14 gives you Overchannel, which lets you maximize a spells damage. But if you use this more than once, you take 2d10 necrotic damage per spell level (and an additional 1d10 per spell level after that). However, Fire Bolt is a Cantrip, so is a 0th level spell. Mike Mearls confirms that this works as written, but suggests a house rule of making the additional 1d10 apply.

This means you can pump out 50 damage a turn without using spell slots.

Wizard 6 lets you do half damage, even if the target succeeds on a saving throw. The Elemental Adept feat lets you ignore resistance (but not immunity).



If you just want a sniper, Sorcerer 18 / Warlock 2 would be best. I'm not entirely sure if it works but....

Eldritch Invocation gives you a range of 300ft for Eldritch Blast. The Spell Sniper feat doubles this to 600ft. Distant Spell metamagic doubles this to 1200ft. I'm not sure if the doubling stacks; so it might just be 600ft, or 900ft if the doubling works off of original values.

[Shadow]

Wizard 14 gives you Overchannel, which lets you maximize a spells damage. But if you use this more than once, you take 2d10 necrotic damage per spell level (and an additional 1d10 per spell level after that). However, Fire Bolt is a Cantrip, so is a 0th level spell. Mike Mearls confirms that this works as written, but suggests a house rule of making the additional 1d10 apply.

First of all, he said that level 20 builds won't help him as he expects to get to 8 or so.
Secondly, Mearls specifically stated (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/486185606540587011) that Overchannel was not intended to be used with cantrips, but if you were to allow it, that you should increase the damage by 1d12 per cantrip.
This implies that if you were you allow it, you treat is as a 1/2 (half) level spell for the purposes of Overchannel on the first use, and a 1st level spell for each additional use.

[Theodoxus]

I want to play a character that kills people via damaging spells. I don't care so much about long range, short range, melee, I just want to do lots of damage with specifically magic. I assume Sorcerers, with their metamagic, fit the bill very well. However, are there any superior options that I haven't considered? Warlock? Cleric? Druid?

EDIT: I should mention that it's level 3. I can expect to reach around level 8, but level 20 builds don't help my decision any.

I have a friend who's going Warlock 2/Sorcerer X (currently 4th level). The consistent damage from Eldritch Bolt with a Hex and Agonizing Blast (so 1d10+1d6+4 - we rolled stats) has him only being outdone by the rogue with a shortbow shooting into melee. (3d6+4).

The sorcerer spells and metamagic are just icing (he was really sad at having so few spell slots on warlock) If the campaign continues into the teens (no idea if that'll happen or not), he'll probably grab another 2 levels of Warlock for the Pact and Ability (plus it grants 2 2nd level slots that regen on any rest - very cool).

[unwise]

...but at character level 8, the Bard pulls ahead by being able to double tap Thunderwave by being mounted on his summoned steed from Find Steed.

Because "While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed"?

"Range" and "Targets" are two different words and two different concepts. I guess you could shoot yourself in the head with a spell and have it affect your horse too. Technically that is doubling your DPR, but it is rather self defeating. :smallconfused: I guess I would let a PC auto-crit doing that too, so you would definitely pull ahead in any DPR optimization race.

I just see this exploit mentioned fairly often, I just don't see it being correct either as written or intended. It also ignores the vibe of 5e where the DM is encouraged to just say no to silly things.

[Kirion]

Hmm, I do like the damage with Warlock, but I've decided upon Sorcerer for now. What are some good blasting spells at low level? Burning Hands at 1st, Scorching Ray at 2nd? Nothing else really stands out to me

[DrLemniscate]

Hmm, I do like the damage with Warlock, but I've decided upon Sorcerer for now. What are some good blasting spells at low level? Burning Hands at 1st, Scorching Ray at 2nd? Nothing else really stands out to me

You're going to be casting Cantrips most of the time, so look at Acid Splash, Firebolt, Poison Spray, and Ray of Frost.

If you are going for the Draconic Origin, pay attention to damage types.

[TheOOB]

Warlock or Sorcerer. Eldtritch blast is perhaps the best source of consistent ranged damage in the game, while a Sorcerer who focuses their magic at a specific area can be better at that thing than anyone else, at the expense of their other abilities of course.

[Hytheter]

What makes Eldritch Blast so good anyway? I'm looking at Firebolt and it seems to have the same range and damage. The difference is the type and the fact that Eldritch Blast adds extra shots (making it more likely to hit) instead of Firebolts extra dice (making it more powerful when it hits).

Is there something bigger that I'm missing?

[pwykersotz]

What makes Eldritch Blast so good anyway? I'm looking at Firebolt and it seems to have the same range and damage. The difference is the type and the fact that Eldritch Blast adds extra shots (making it more likely to hit) instead of Firebolts extra dice (making it more powerful when it hits).

Is there something bigger that I'm missing?

Warlocks have invocations that give them Charisma to damage on Eldritch Blast. You qualify on level 2. Then you can either split your targets or focus them all on a single target. Plus, it's Force Damage. It's very nice.

[Hytheter]

Warlocks have invocations that give them Charisma to damage on Eldritch Blast.

Can't Sorcerers do the same with Firebolt with their Draconic Origin, which works also with other spells like Burning Hands or Fireball?

[pwykersotz]

Can't Sorcerers do the same with Firebolt with their Draconic Origin, which works also with other spells like Burning Hands or Fireball?

Yeah, but that doesn't hit until 6th level.

[137beth]

I'm going to second warlock. At low levels, running out of spells with a blaster sorcerer is something you need to think about. If you don't expect to go to high levels, warlock makes a better blaster.
Wow, I clicked on the newest thread in roleplaying games and responded without checking which edition subforum I was in:smallredface:
Conveniently, I still think warlock is the answer I want to give.

[Shadow]

Can't Sorcerers do the same with Firebolt with their Draconic Origin, which works also with other spells like Burning Hands or Fireball?

Yeah, but that doesn't hit until 6th level.

Yes and No.
A draconic sorc gets a similar ability at level 6. But his cantrips (firebolt as your example) only throws a single bolt that increases with level.
So that firebolt will eventually do 4d10+5 ~ average 27

The warlock, on the other hand, has a much different cantrip. It doesn't throw a single bolt that increases with level. Instead of gaining another die on that blast, it throws a new blast.
So if all four hit, that eldritch blas does 4*(1d10+5) = 4d10+20 ~ average 42

See the difference?

[Hytheter]

Yes and No.
A draconic sorc gets a similar ability at level 6. But his cantrips (firebolt as your example) only throws a single bolt that increases with level.
So that firebolt will eventually do 4d10+5 ~ average 27

The warlock, on the other hand, has a much different cantrip. It doesn't throw a single bolt that increases with level. Instead of gaining another die on that blast, it throws a new blast.
So if all four hit, that eldritch blas does 4*(1d10+5) = 4d10+20 ~ average 42

See the difference?

Oh right, of course. That should have been obvious in hindsight. Thanks.

[Logosloki]

The best blasters are Warlock and Sorcerer so it really comes down to What ratio of these two you go for for maximum boom. The minimum you need to make your master blaster would be warlock 2 and sorcerer 3 since that nets you two invocations and the metamagic abilities. You will be choosing Agonizing blast for one of your invocations so you only have one spare for roleplaying or for utility (such as book of shadows if you go level three warlock).

Lock 2/Sorc 3 gives you early damage through agonizing blast invocation at level 2 and proficiency in simple weapons and light armour and wis/cha for saves while Sorc 3/Lock 2 Gives you access to draconic heritage and metamagic early and con/cha for saves.

Your best two options are Warlock 2/Sorcerer 6 or Warlock 5/Sorcerer 3, a close third being Warlock 3/Sorcerer 5. Warlock 5 is an interesting option as you give up the ability to cast two fourth level spells but do gain two third level spell slots that recharge on a short rest instead of a long one and an extra invocation. You still have two fourth level spell slots so you can still use them up (to cast third level spells) or you can break them down with the font of magic feature and gain 8 sorcery points.

[Theodoxus]

Yes and No.
A draconic sorc gets a similar ability at level 6. But his cantrips (firebolt as your example) only throws a single bolt that increases with level.
So that firebolt will eventually do 4d10+5 ~ average 27

The warlock, on the other hand, has a much different cantrip. It doesn't throw a single bolt that increases with level. Instead of gaining another die on that blast, it throws a new blast.
So if all four hit, that eldritch blas does 4*(1d10+5) = 4d10+20 ~ average 42

See the difference?

Plus Hex for an added 1d6 - it's a first level spell, so you won't be throwing it out every encounter - and it's only really useful on a pack of mooks - but it does add to your DPR.

[Hytheter]

Does Hex add damage for the whole spell, or for each separate attack of Eldritch Blast?

[Shadow]

Does Hex add damage for the whole spell, or for each separate attack of Eldritch Blast?

Hex curses the target and adds 1d6 necrotic damage each time you hit it with an attack. As each bolt has its own attack roll, each one counts as a separate attack.
At 5th level, that's (1d10+cha+1d6)*2 if you hit with both bolts = ~24 damage per round, at will, from range.
Warlocks are hands down, without a doubt, the most consistent blasters in the game. And the beauty is that you only need 2 levels of warlock to get it there.
Sorcs have bigger nukes and better nova by far, but warlocks are much more consistent.

To answer your original question, the best blaster in the game is a warlock 2 / sorc +

My next character is going to be a warlock 2 (or 3) / lore bard, for the complete package of ranged damage, melee capability, support, skill monkey, and CC (agonizing and repelling invocations).

[Hytheter]

Wow, so Hex and Eldritch blast are quite potent then. A Warlock/Sorcerer could go Hex then Eldritch blast in turn 1, then just go quickened eldritch blast and eldritch blast all day long, especially if you cannibalise spell slots for Sorcery points and take short rests.

At level 17 you get four blasts, which with quicken can be 8 in a turn, all with d6 from hex and with charisma. That's potentially 8d6+8d10+40 (averages 112) in one turn, at will, spending only 2 sorcery points and no spell slots. That's nuts.

Now if only there was a Force Dragon, or a way to turn Eldritch Blast into an elemental attack to really amp up the damage.

[DrLemniscate]

Wow, so Hex and Eldritch blast are quite potent then. A Warlock/Sorcerer could go Hex then Eldritch blast in turn 1, then just go quickened eldritch blast and eldritch blast all day long, especially if you cannibalise spell slots for Sorcery points and take short rests.

At level 17 you get four blasts, which with quicken can be 8 in a turn, all with d6 from hex and with charisma. That's potentially 8d6+8d10+40 (averages 112) in one turn, at will, spending only 2 sorcery points and no spell slots. That's nuts.

Now if only there was a Force Dragon, or a way to turn Eldritch Blast into an elemental attack to really amp up the damage.

Well, there's no Force Dragon in 5e (yet), but if you play Dragon Force loud enough, you might get your DM to relent. Or if you provide a convincing drawing of a Dragon with a lightsaber.

The extra blasts instead of extra die are even better for consistent damage. If you make 4 rolls instead of 1, you are more likely to do some amount of damage, although less likely to reach your maximum damage.

I also wonder how Distant Spell and Spell Sniper interact (with the 300ft Eldritch Invocation of course!). Do they stack (1200ft), work off of original values (900ft), or not stack at all (600ft)?

[Tvtyrant]

It depends on your rules interpretation of Scorching Ray. A friend and I realized a Dragon Sorcerer who wanted to focus on OT damage could eat up all of their higher level slots into metamagic points, and then cast twinned quicken scorching ray from a 4th slot and Fire Bolt from a cantrip each turn for 9 turns (3 4th, 3 3rd, 3 2nd.) The damage to the first target is around 60, 50 to the second (declines with lower level slots.)

You don't actually need to use all of your slots to do this either, just the majority of your upper level ones (5 points a turn for 9 turns for 45 points.)

[DeAnno]

You can't Twin and Quicken the same spell, unfortunately. Also, Quickening the Cantrip doesn't work because the rules only let you cast Cantrips on bonus action spell turns.

[DrLemniscate]

...the rules only let you cast Cantrips on bonus action spell turns.

Where are you getting this?

Also, I think any spell with a casting time faster than 1 Action (1 Bonus Action, 1 Reaction), should be castable as an Action. The faster options are just there to not mess with the flow of combat, or are certain triggers for a reaction. Why shouldn't you be able to cast Feather Fall before people jump off a cliff (say you have NPCs putting your number over 5)?

[Hytheter]

Where are you getting this?

The wording DeAnno used is strange, but I think he's talking about this aspect of casting spells as bonus actions:

"You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time o f 1 action."

So in tvtyrant's example, if you Quicken Fire Bolt, you won't be able to cast Scorching Ray in the same turn. You could cast another Fire Bolt though, or quicken (but not twin) the scorching ray and follow that up with a Fire Bolt.

[Shadow]

The wording DeAnno used is strange, but I think he's talking about this aspect of casting spells as bonus actions:

"You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time o f 1 action."

So in tvtyrant's example, if you Quicken Fire Bolt, you won't be able to cast Scorching Ray in the same turn. You could cast another Fire Bolt though, or quicken (but not twin) the scorching ray and follow that up with a Fire Bolt.

It is my opinion that this is a perfect example of people not realizing that specific trumps general.

The general rule (under spellcasting) is that you cannot cast two spells in a round unless one of them is a bonus action cantrip.
This follows normal action economy.

Quicken Spell changes the normal rule.... otherwise what's the point of the feature?
The point of the feature is that it changes the second spell to a bonus action so that your turn follows normal action economy. This specific rule trumps the general rule requiring the second spell be a cantrip.

The point of Twin Spell is that it basically allows you to cast a single target concentration spell on more than one target without breaking concentration on the first.

[TheOOB]

It is my opinion that this is a perfect example of people not realizing that specific trumps general.

The general rule (under spellcasting) is that you cannot cast two spells in a round unless one of them is a bonus action cantrip.
This follows normal action economy.

Quicken Spell changes the normal rule.... otherwise what's the point of the feature?
The point of the feature is that it changes the second spell to a bonus action so that your turn follows normal action economy. This specific rule trumps the general rule requiring the second spell be a cantrip.

The point of Twin Spell is that it basically allows you to cast a single target concentration spell on more than one target without breaking concentration on the first.

Quicken spell doesn't change anything though. It allows you to cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action with 1 bonus action. That is all, it says nothing about allowing to cast 2 leveled spells a round. The rules for casting spells as bonus actions say that if you do so, you can't cast another spell in the same turn unless it's a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. Those two rules do not conflict in any way.

[Rummy]

It is my opinion that this is a perfect example of people not realizing that specific trumps general.

The general rule (under spellcasting) is that you cannot cast two spells in a round unless one of them is a bonus action cantrip.
This follows normal action economy.

Quicken Spell changes the normal rule.... otherwise what's the point of the feature?
The point of the feature is that it changes the second spell to a bonus action so that your turn follows normal action economy. This specific rule trumps the general rule requiring the second spell be a cantrip.

The point of Twin Spell is that it basically allows you to cast a single target concentration spell on more than one target without breaking concentration on the first.

That is one great use for Twin spell. Another is to cast two fire bolts for 1 spell point. Another FANTASTIC use of Twin spell is to cast Disintegrate at two baddies in one turn. I would seriously consider going full Sorcerer if there is any chance of getting to 11th level. Starting the fight with two disintegrates is crazy powerful. Also, a full sorcerer becomes scary with Scorching Ray at 6th level. Elemental Affinity adds your Cha mod to each ray. (2d6 + 4)*3 is about 33 damage at level six. Empower makes it even better (tho I'd only let you re-roll 2d6 per spell point because each is a separate damage roll). Eldritch Blast is doing (1d10 + 1d6 + 4)*2 which is 26 damage. True it is an at will, but you also burn your concentration slot on Hex. The 6th level sorcerer, OTOH, is using his concentration slot to maintain Haste on two of his Melee buddies. Much, much more effective. Remember, Firebolt is your backup spell, and it does a respectable 2d10 + 4 or 15 points at 6th level. So even without casting Scorching Ray, the party is greatly outdamaging the blaster warlock just using fire bolt and Twinned Haste (+2 AC and +1 attack to two Melee characters is incredible). Finally, full sorcerer gets fireball at level five... Multiclasser waits until level 7. That should be a decisive factor if you are not playing beyond 8th level (half your time with Fireball vs one quarter of your time).

[Shining Wrath]

You really want Warlock. At those low levels, you just don't have the spell slots to do a whole lot other than Cantrips and Warlocks have the best Cantrip of the bunch and regaining spell slots on a short rest means you can use them more often.
I'd just go with two levels of Warlock though before moving to either Sorc or Bard. Sorc will be better than Bard for blasting between character levels 3-7 but at character level 8, the Bard pulls ahead by being able to double tap Thunderwave by being mounted on his summoned steed from Find Steed.

Except I fully expect >90% of all Dungeon Masters to say "Houserule. Attack spells with range of spell cannot also be cast on your summoned steed, that feature is intended to let you buff yourself and your steed, and ONLY buff spells can be cast like that". It may be RAW, but it's not RAW that's going to make the cut at a lot of tables.

EDIT:

Among sorcerer cantrips, I like Chill Touch, because it prevents the target from regaining HP until the end of your next turn. Full stop; any mechanism for regaining HP, fails. Cure spells, second winds, regeneration, auras, what have you - they fail.

[Yagyujubei]

Because "While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed"?

"Range" and "Targets" are two different words and two different concepts. I guess you could shoot yourself in the head with a spell and have it affect your horse too. Technically that is doubling your DPR, but it is rather self defeating. :smallconfused: I guess I would let a PC auto-crit doing that too, so you would definitely pull ahead in any DPR optimization race.

I just see this exploit mentioned fairly often, I just don't see it being correct either as written or intended. It also ignores the vibe of 5e where the DM is encouraged to just say no to silly things.

see post:


I'm the one who pointed out the combos first, and I've created and participated in countless threads on it. /tg/ officially hates me at this point.

The overall consensus is this: They really didn't stop to think about how it would interact with the bard's ability to gain any spell. Aoe (self) spells, according to strict RAW, are able to be doublecasted from your mount, but it's on level with 3.5's ability to drown a party member back to health - no dm would, or should, ever let you do it.

However, there are a ton of other spells it can interact with. Polymorph is iffy, since it could use the mount's CR, but spells like magic jar, vampiric touch and communion can all be doubled with ease.

Doubling magic jar is particularly fun, because having your mount possess the BBEG circumvents most of the usual problems with magic jar, namely you not being able to do anything and having to drag your body around with you lest you die - if your mount dies, it takes ten minutes of casting to get him back. Of course, depending on how the dm rules the wording, you may have to kill yourself to properly cast magic jar without it being cancelled for the mount as soon as you return to your body, but it's a price worth paying.

http://s4.postimg.org/5yeempcn1/Bardic_Ultrahorse.png

you are wrong, range:self implies that you are the target of the spell, it's all there in the PHB. look harder next time.

[Ferrin33]

It is my opinion that this is a perfect example of people not realizing that specific trumps general.

The general rule (under spellcasting) is that you cannot cast two spells in a round unless one of them is a bonus action cantrip.
This follows normal action economy.

Quicken Spell changes the normal rule.... otherwise what's the point of the feature?
The point of the feature is that it changes the second spell to a bonus action so that your turn follows normal action economy. This specific rule trumps the general rule requiring the second spell be a cantrip.

The point of Twin Spell is that it basically allows you to cast a single target concentration spell on more than one target without breaking concentration on the first.

Regarding Quicken; Nowhere does it change or refer to the rules of Casting A Spell>Casting Time, it changes a property of the spell you cast(Action to Bonus Action).

[DeAnno]

Another good use of Quicken is if you already have some other spell going that eats your Action, like Sunbeam, Eyebite, or Telekinesis.

[Lokiare]

I'm not sure if its on the sorcerer or warlocks list, but flaming sphere is a decent blasty spell that scales the best in higher level slots, it also is concentration and deals damage to at least 1 target each round. It does eat your bonus action though.