Ultimate Magus Cleric

[yamifowl]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to these forums and I'd like to ask for some help regarding a character for an upcomming DnD 3.5 campagin.
It uses all of Faerun rules and options, though with different names (the GM is creating his own world), and my character is going to be a Cleric Ultimate Magus.
Thus, it will be a Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric, levels are not exactly of concern (the GM intents to take the campaign up to level 25 fast and I am not worried about being completely optmized), the fact that I'll have three spell lists makes me wonder what should I have for known spells as a Sorcerer.

My domains as Cleric are going to be Luck and Spell, my Wizard part is going to be generalist, so basically, I'd like suggestions (considering I'm a Ultimate Magus) of what known spells should I go for.

Thanks in advance.

[Dalebert]

So is this a gestault game? Is that how you're both cleric and UM?

On the UM side, I find a great combo to be beguiler and then definitely specialize on the wizard side. The beguiler side fills in so well if you give up enchanting and illusion, for instance, or even enchanting and evocation since no one cares about evocation anyway as long as you have conjuration and there are a few primo illusion spells you don't get as a beguiler. I think beguilers even get Sending which is one of the very few evocation spells that's a little painful to give up. Similarly, you could go dread necromancer and give up necromancy and evocation on your wizard side.

[GreyBlack]

So is this a gestault game? Is that how you're both cleric and UM?

On the UM side, I find a great combo to be beguiler and then definitely specialize on the wizard side. The beguiler side fills in so well if you give up enchanting and illusion, for instance, or even enchanting and evocation since no one cares about evocation anyway as long as you have conjuration and there are a few primo illusion spells you don't get as a beguiler. I think beguilers even get Sending which is one of the very few evocation spells that's a little painful to give up. Similarly, you could go dread necromancer and give up necromancy and evocation on your wizard side.

Actually, it's a misinformed decision to give up evocation without a second thought. Evocation has many uses at higher levels, mostly battlefield control and out of combat stuff. Contingency, for example, is an evocation spell. Forcecage is in a similar boat, as are a number of force effects. Evocation is an incredibly versatile school that does not get the respect it deserves. Comboing Beguiler and Wizard, I would ban illusion and enchantment, as Beguiler takes care of that side oftthings for you. I know you're saying that here too, but it's too prevalent to say that evocation is useless.

To the OP; I recommend don't. Unless Gestalt is a thing, your class combination is extremely suboptimal and likely to prove unfun to you. A better option would be (and I shudder slightly saying this) the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge if available or the Ultimate Magus, depending on how you feel like building.

[Snowbluff]

If you're an ultimate magus with Beguiler, Enchantment would be a good drop.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Actually, it's a misinformed decision to give up evocation without a second thought. Evocation has many uses at higher levels, mostly battlefield control and out of combat stuff. Contingency, for example, is an evocation spell. Forcecage is in a similar boat, as are a number of force effects. Evocation is an incredibly versatile school that does not get the respect it deserves. Comboing Beguiler and Wizard, I would ban illusion and enchantment, as Beguiler takes care of that side oftthings for you. I know you're saying that here too, but it's too prevalent to say that evocation is useless.

As it looks like the Complete series of books are in play, evocation can be discarded and then contingency recovered via the Craft Contingent Spell feat. It's a little bit more costly to use, but it is also more lax in how many contingencies you can have up at any given time. That being said, if PHB 2 is available, definitely use beguiler instead of sorcerer. While it has a more limited spell list, you no longer have to worry about boosting another mental stat to insure all your spells hit hard enough to be effective. You also can use some tricks with Heighten Spell and the Versatile Spellcaster feat - either for early entry or to gain access to 2nd level spells during your first three levels of play.


To the OP; I recommend don't. Unless Gestalt is a thing, your class combination is extremely suboptimal and likely to prove unfun to you. A better option would be (and I shudder slightly saying this) the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge if available or the Ultimate Magus, depending on how you feel like building.

Honestly, I've got the same opinion here. With feats like Arcane Disciple, Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment, and others, it is very possible to gain access to typically divine-only spells and abilities (namely, domain powers). The "best" Ultimate Magi have a build following something like Spontaneous Caster 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/Full-wizard casting PrC 5. You can use the aforementioned Arcane Thesis feat to grab a domain that you want multiple (low level) spells off of and slap those onto your wizard spell list. Then, using UM's Expanded Spell Knowledge class feature, you can convert said not-really-wizard spells to your spontaneous spell list and bypass both the limited once-per-day usage and wisdom score limitation of said spells!

If you absolutely, positively must use a divine caster, considering using the dead-god adaptation for Ur-Priest from Complete Divine. Make the last five of your pre-epic levels instead be Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3 advancing wizard spellcasting. You won't get into Epic Ultimate Magus doing this - meaning no tasty, tasty bonus epic feats - but you would get at least real 9th level spells quickly into epic for either 10th level and above slots or Epic Spellcasting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As others have said, trying to shoehorn Cleric levels into an Ultimate Magus build will only make your Ultimate Magus build worse, without making your character any better.

A proper Ultimate Magus uses Beguiler from PH2 instead of Sorcerer, so your only casting stat is Int. UM progresses whichever class has a lower caster level at the 1st, 4th, and 7th levels, so Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler will actually allow you to put more UM toward Wizard. If you make the character an Illumian from Races of Destiny with the Krau sigil along with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler you can put all ten levels of UM toward Wizard. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so you can even pick up Able Learner to keep up your ranks in those amazing Beguiler class skills. You can also get Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon to spend two Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you've learned of one level higher, and it also allows you to cast the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list earlier.

If you want to mix arcane and divine casting, make a Mystic Theurge.

[sideswipe]

if your going to go mystic theurge route i personally like wizard/archivist. all the int casting and very versatile. why learn heal as a 7th level spell when you can learn it as a 5th (adept or runescarred berserker) and some really nice paladin and ranger spells as well as the whole cleric list.

as an archivist you can get some good spells early. and wizard = win.

[Extra Anchovies]

The primary advantage of a specialist (well, a focused specialist) is the number of spells per day they get compared to generalist. If this is a gestalt game, you'll be advancing full cleric casting on the other side. You'll have a massive pile of spells, maybe so many that you have some left over even if you cast one every round of combat each day. Go with one of the Domain Wizard ACFs from Unearthed Arcana; Conjuration Domain is a good one. The extra spells from FS are the solution to a problem that you don't need to solve, so there's not much to gain from sacrificing the versatility.

If it's not a gestalt game, though, why are you trying to do a triple caster? Either one is neglected and left as a one or two-level dip, or you try to advance all three and end up casting somewhere around 5th or 6th level spells, at best, for each class. You can cast your Chain Lightning, your enemies can cast their Shapechange. Have fun with all those unnecessary low-level spell slots!

[torrasque666]

You guys are all suggesting things for him to take instead, and apparently have COMPLETELY disregarded his desire for help with a Ultimate Magus Cleric's sorcerer's spell selection. The Beguiler suggestion is warranted, as it still helps him with a Ultimate Magus Cleric, telling him to take Mystic Theruge really isn't.

In any case, if you do go with the Sorcerer, there aren't a large amount of Sorcerer only spells, but Wings of Flurry is one( 1d6 damage/level and dazed for 1 round. Reflex halves damage and avoids daze.). Go for utility spells with your sorcerer so that it doesn't matter what you have prepared that day, you have a spell available for most situations.

Otherwise, go beguiler so that you don't need all three mental stats high, only two. Or, you can trim that down to one with Wizard/Beguiler/Archivist. Archivist is still a divine caster, is based off of int, and can learn any divine spell it can find a scroll of.

[sideswipe]

The primary advantage of a specialist (well, a focused specialist) is the number of spells per day they get compared to generalist. If this is a gestalt game, you'll be advancing full cleric casting on the other side. You'll have a massive pile of spells, maybe so many that you have some left over even if you cast one every round of combat each day. Go with one of the Domain Wizard ACFs from Unearthed Arcana; Conjuration Domain is a good one. The extra spells from FS are the solution to a problem that you don't need to solve, so there's not much to gain from sacrificing the versatility.

If it's not a gestalt game, though, why are you trying to do a triple caster? Either one is neglected and left as a one or two-level dip, or you try to advance all three and end up casting somewhere around 5th or 6th level spells, at best, for each class. You can cast your Chain Lightning, your enemies can cast their Shapechange. Have fun with all those unnecessary low-level spell slots!

well he said no cheese but just as a point it is very easy to get triple 9's at level 20. just not the way he wants it.

[GreyBlack]

You guys are all suggesting things for him to take instead, and apparently have COMPLETELY disregarded his desire for help with a Ultimate Magus Cleric's sorcerer's spell selection. The Beguiler suggestion is warranted, as it still helps him with a Ultimate Magus Cleric, telling him to take Mystic Theruge really isn't.

In any case, if you do go with the Sorcerer, there aren't a large amount of Sorcerer only spells, but Wings of Flurry is one( 1d6 damage/level and dazed for 1 round. Reflex halves damage and avoids daze.). Go for utility spells with your sorcerer so that it doesn't matter what you have prepared that day, you have a spell available for most situations.

Otherwise, go beguiler so that you don't need all three mental stats high, only two. Or, you can trim that down to one with Wizard/Beguiler/Archivist. Archivist is still a divine caster, is based off of int, and can learn any divine spell it can find a scroll of.

Okay, I'm confused now. What, exactly, is an Ultimate Magus Cleric if not a bizarre hybrid of Cleric, wizard, and a spontaneous arcane caster?

EDIT: To the OP; if Pathfinder is allowed, look into the Arcanist.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, I'm confused now. What, exactly, is an Ultimate Magus Cleric if not a bizarre hybrid of Cleric, wizard, and a spontaneous arcane caster?

Probably an Ultimate Magus that tries to cram one or more Cleric levels into the build, stretching the character's abilities extremely thin and ending up with a terrible idea.

[yamifowl]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the feedback... I noticed the lack of information might have derailed the topic a little bit.
Though I am thankful for suggestions such as the Beguiler (but I think I won't be benefiting from it so much)

For better understanding, the GM is proposing a campaign that should VERY fast reach level 25, basically we will play a little bit on the background of our characters and developtment of their stories, then proceed to the epic campaign he has palnned. Since all the players are going for "not optimized builds" I decided to go with this concept:
Fighter 1, Sorcerer 1, Wizard 3, Ultimate Magus 7, Abjurant Champion 3, Cleric 3 then Abjurant Champion 2.
(To produce a relatively good fighter with lots of magic options; as for the cleric I do intend to add mystic theurge in epic progression and the main reason for taking it, is that my character is going to be a Initiate of Mystra (renamed in his campaign), and eventually a Chosen). We are not worrying about maximizing caster levels at lv20.

So, my biggest problem is:
Considering I will have a Cleric Spell list (eventually up to 9th) and a Wizard Spell list (which will be 9th pretty soon in the campaign (before lv25, for sure); I am having trouble selecting my Sorcerer known spells.

Thanks in advance!

[sideswipe]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the feedback... I noticed the lack of information might have derailed the topic a little bit.
Though I am thankful for suggestions such as the Beguiler (but I think I won't be benefiting from it so much)

For better understanding, the GM is proposing a campaign that should VERY fast reach level 25, basically we will play a little bit on the background of our characters and developtment of their stories, then proceed to the epic campaign he has palnned. Since all the players are going for "not optimized builds" I decided to go with this concept:
Fighter 1, Sorcerer 1, Wizard 3, Ultimate Magus 7, Abjurant Champion 3, Cleric 3 then Abjurant Champion 2.
(To produce a relatively good fighter with lots of magic options; as for the cleric I do intend to add mystic theurge in epic progression and the main reason for taking it, is that my character is going to be a Initiate of Mystra (renamed in his campaign), and eventually a Chosen). We are not worrying about maximizing caster levels at lv20.

So, my biggest problem is:
Considering I will have a Cleric Spell list (eventually up to 9th) and a Wizard Spell list (which will be 9th pretty soon in the campaign (before lv25, for sure); I am having trouble selecting my Sorcerer known spells.

Thanks in advance!

first you will want 3rd level cleric spells for divine power for a full base attack. no persist shenanigans for all day, but still great for combat as a "warrior" type.

as your sorcerer spells you will want that side of your arcane to be your combat half. wizard is versatile but has less spells per day (unless a focused specialist which i highly encourage) so use wizard for versatility and sorcerer for raw battle power. since you are not being optimised this is the good choice. and i reiterate for optimisers about to pick me apart not optimised
so for sorcerer spells i would suggest you look at the mailman (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181) optimisation and look at the spells used in the levels you have access to. and the metamagic and a few reducers. again since you are so far behind this will be very unoptimised.

then you have - sorcerer for ranged damage and a few melee buffs if you have the extra spells known (since you have suggested melee)
wizard for versatility and out of combat usefulness and a few combat tricks that you wont need multiple times a day.
cleric for the self buffs to give you a big melee advantage.

[Extra Anchovies]

Sorcerer spells should also have the debuffs that you'll be casting a lot; slow, dispel magic, that sort of thing. Stuff that you see yourself casting two or more times per day, really.