[3.5] Help making an effective ranged build using core + completes

[macdaddy]

Hi Guys

I Need Help Making An Effective Ranged Attack Build Using Only CoRe Plus Completes. The Character Will.Be StartIng At.7th Or 8Th And Have Stats Of (18, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10).

I Looked At The Archer Handbook, But It Looks Unfinished.

Currently I Am Considering Warlock Or Ranger/Horizon Walker, Or Ranger/Scout

Any And All Help Would Be Appreciated.

[Divide by Zero]

As usual, T1 casters do it best. (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/quickstart-cleric-archer.html)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Generally, Core + Completes is not enough for a character who makes ranged weapon attacks, but spells are doable.

Go Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8 for your final build. Get Master Spellthief, Split Ray, Point-Blank and Precise Shot, and any +0 metamagic feat such as Energy Substitution. The standard rule on volley attacks (such as spells that make multiple attacks like Scorching Ray) is that only the first attack made by such abilities deals precision damage such as sneak attack, but the Rules Compendium has clarified this, stating that any special attack that takes a full-round action to activate gets to add precision damage to every attack it makes. That means your Energy Substituted Scorching Ray gets to sneak attack with every shot, because spontaneously cast metamagic spells have a full-round action casting time. Pick up the Acidic Splatter reserve feat in CM and you'll have an at-will ranged attack that can be used to sneak attack. Take Greater Invisibility and you can sneak attack with every spell as long as you're within 30 ft.

[ranagrande]

An Ogre Hulking Hurler could also work well.

[ericgrau]

Standard swift hunter (ranger/scout) with travel devotion plus improved rapid shot.

If you want to be more viable at ~7th-9th level then pick up weapon specialization and poisons. Especially drow poison. Get around 20-30, restock as needed and don't be shy about spamming it. It's cheap at your level. However around level 11 you'll get by just fine with a magic bow for damage and poisons will start to become obsolete. So if you expect quick progression you may want to skip the weapon spec and limit the amount of poison to only what you'll need.

Get arrows of every metal type for DR, plus bane arrows of all common monster types (e.g., undead). A quiver of ehlonna aka efficient quiver is handy for holding them all. By level 12 or 13 pick up boots of speed for free action haste.

If your party has a caster then beg for flame arrow and heroism in dungeons, plus 24 hours of greater magic weapon. You may want to foot the bill for the lesser rod of extend spell but other than that low level spells shouldn't be a big deal to the caster. Haste is likewise nice if your party has other weapon users, but by level 12 or so you get your own via boots to save the casting time.

Horizon walker is in a lot of pain until level 11 and even then ddoor spamming only goes so far. If you want ddoor that badly then find a way to get limited uses in item form, plus some other item for long distance party travel (so at will isn't necessary). Cleric archers struggle just to barely exceed the NPC warrior class, and are often a trap due to combat time wasted buffing. Sure they can cast too, but then you might as well stop the poor shooting altogether and only cast, because you can't do much of both simultaneously.

[Darrin]

How about:

Race: Human
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (CChamp), Bonus: PB Shot. Skirmish 1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Precise Shot. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (CSc). Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot. Feat: Greater Manyshot (XPH/SRD). Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish (CSc). Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6+4.
11) Highland Stalker 1.
12) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (CWar). Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
14) Ranger 8.
15) Ranger 9. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
16) Ranger 10.
17) Ranger 11. Bonus: Improved Precise Shot. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
18) Ranger 12. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3)
19) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
20) Ranger 14. 4th level spells.

[Oko and Qailee]

Something I did that works really well:

Zen Archery Cleric: DMM Quicken or DMM persist to get a bunch of buffs on you all the time. Time domain for Haste. Be a cloistered cleric and trade Knowledge Domain for Devotion. 2 Level dip in ranger for free Rapid Shot if you don't want to have any dex whatsoever. To make up for your BAB, you can use divine power. This makes for a more SAD archer, with a bunch of cleric buffs you can reliably overcome DR.

[Oko and Qailee]

How about:

-Travel Devotion x3-

Instead of taking travel devotion 3 times why not just dip one into cloistered cleric and trade travel domain for devotion? That free's up 2 feats for you, more than enough to make up for one less BAB

[Darrin]

Instead of taking travel devotion 3 times why not just dip one into cloistered cleric and trade travel domain for devotion? That free's up 2 feats for you, more than enough to make up for one less BAB

I was going to suggest that as a second build, but:

1) Cloistered Cleric was not in the Core + Completes.
2) My preferred deity for a Cleric dip is Half-Elf with Sehanine Moonbow (Elf, Travel, Knowledge domains), but RotW wasn't in the available sourcebooks. Nor was Draconic deity Io (Travel, Knowledge, Magic domains).
3) Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 incurs XP penalties, if they haven't been houseruled away.

[Extra Anchovies]

Seconding Darrin's build suggestion. Sure, a T1 caster can do it well, but sometimes making enemies into pincushions through physical skill alone is more fun. Besides, look at how many dice you get to roll when you skirmish!

[Oko and Qailee]

I was going to suggest that as a second build, but:

1) Cloistered Cleric was not in the Core + Completes.
2) My preferred deity for a Cleric dip is Half-Elf with Sehanine Moonbow (Elf, Travel, Knowledge domains), but RotW wasn't in the available sourcebooks. Nor was Draconic deity Io (Travel, Knowledge, Magic domains).
3) Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 incurs XP penalties, if they haven't been houseruled away.

1) Haha, sorry, I always think CCleric is in core because it's in the SRD
2)
3) Oh man, I am so used to not playing with those I forget they exist

[Oko and Qailee]

Seconding Darrin's build suggestion. Sure, a T1 caster can do it well, but sometimes making enemies into pincushions through physical skill alone is more fun. Besides, look at how many dice you get to roll when you skirmish!

I like the build also... I just have this (bad) habit of thinking everything works better with a 1 level dip in cleric.

[nedz]

I was going to suggest that as a second build, but:

1) Cloistered Cleric was not in the Core + Completes.
2) My preferred deity for a Cleric dip is Half-Elf with Sehanine Moonbow (Elf, Travel, Knowledge domains), but RotW wasn't in the available sourcebooks. Nor was Draconic deity Io (Travel, Knowledge, Magic domains).
3) Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 incurs XP penalties, if they haven't been houseruled away.
Depends whether you define core as SRD ? In which case Cloistered Cleric would be available.

I like the build also... I just have this (bad) habit of thinking everything works better with a 1 level dip in cleric.
A one level dip in Wizard is quite good also. Either Scribe Scroll itself, or swapped out for a Fighter feat — and all of those nice Divination spells.

[Darrin]

A one level dip in Wizard is quite good also. Either Scribe Scroll itself, or swapped out for a Fighter feat — and all of those nice Divination spells.

For wizard/sorcerer spells, I prefer finishing off with:

Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Spellsword 1.

+4d6 Skirmish, 6th level Sorcerer casting, and Advanced Learning -> hunter's eye.

[ericgrau]

How about:

Race: Human
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (CChamp), Bonus: PB Shot. Skirmish 1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Precise Shot. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (CSc). Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot. Feat: Greater Manyshot (XPH/SRD). Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish (CSc). Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6+4.
11) Highland Stalker 1.
12) Highland Stalker 2. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (CWar). Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
14) Ranger 8.
15) Ranger 9. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 5d6AC+3/7d6AC+5.
16) Ranger 10.
17) Ranger 11. Bonus: Improved Precise Shot. Skirmish 5d6AC+4/7d6AC+6.
18) Ranger 12. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3)
19) Ranger 13. Camouflage. Skirmish 6d6AC+4/8d6AC+6.
20) Ranger 14. 4th level spells.
Looks nice but why greater manyshot when you have travel devotion? I'd dip cleric dip to get more uses, and an ok cha. I'd also get improved rapid shot by the starting level of 7 or 8; don't underestimate a +2. Due to the medium BAB levels, secondary attacks and so on it often means +20% damage.

[Darrin]

Looks nice but why greater manyshot when you have travel devotion?


Kinda trying to do two things at once there... also, Travel Devotion only covers 10 rounds per day until around ECL 15. I prefer taking Improved Rapid Shot at ECL 9 and skipping Greater Manyshot, unless I keep running out of Travel Devotion or swift-action move items. Some people may prefer just relying on Greater Manyshot, saving Travel Devotion 1/day for boss fights or big encounters. I left Greater Manyshot in there for people who prefer it.

Ideally, I'd get Precise Shot via the Precise weapon property (+1 enhancement, MIC), take Travel Devotion (x2) at 3rd, take Improved Rapid Shot at 9th, and pick up something like Woodland Archer later at 12th.



I'd dip cleric dip to get more uses, and an ok cha.


I, too, prefer a cleric dip, but there may be some issues with sources available.



I'd also get improved rapid shot by the starting level of 7 or 8; don't underestimate a +2.


Improved Rapid Shot requires Manyshot, and it seems like a waste to grab Manyshot early if you're going to be getting it with Ranger 6 later. It's tough to grab it earlier than ECL 9 unless you give up Ranger spells or write off your 2nd Combat Style feat as a waste. But if I'm going Dragon Devotee/Unseen Seer, then I'm not taking so many Ranger levels, and it might be worth it to grab Manyshot with the Champion of the Wild ACF from Complete Champion. Losing Ranger spells hurts a bit, but the Sorcerer casting kinda makes up for it.

[ericgrau]

Ya level 9 makes sense. It's not too late and it's easier to get the feat then.

[ace rooster]

Assuming you want a build that is actually ranged, rather than 30ft, I am going to suggest a halfling ranger assassin. If you can convince the DM that you have a source of the raw materials for drow poison then you can use imp TWF, rapid shot, and far shot to start throwing 5 DC 13 fort saves or fall unconsious a round, out to a range of 200ft with darts. You can throw alchemists fire and the like at things too, or use a longbow with poisons at very long range.

[ericgrau]

I, too, prefer a cleric dip, but there may be some issues with sources available.
I may not be noticing something, but what's wrong with a vanilla cleric dip? He might grab a snazzy domain ability too like the magic domain, luck domain or war domain.


Assuming you want a build that is actually ranged, rather than 30ft, I am going to suggest a halfling ranger assassin. If you can convince the DM that you have a source of the raw materials for drow poison then you can use imp TWF, rapid shot, and far shot to start throwing 5 DC 13 fort saves or fall unconsious a round, out to a range of 200ft with darts. You can throw alchemists fire and the like at things too, or use a longbow with poisons at very long range.
Why not buy the poison on the black market? He has plenty of money and presumably enough street contacts at level 7 or 8.

The thing with thrower builds is that by about level 10 or 11 it gets hard to get decent magic weapons. You can delay it by getting boots of speed, dex items, a str item and so on first, but eventually you get stuck and need a good magic weapon for damage. If he can transition from throwing to archery via common feats like rapid shot it may be nice.

[ace rooster]

Why not buy the poison on the black market? He has plenty of money and presumably enough street contacts at level 7 or 8.

The thing with thrower builds is that by about level 10 or 11 it gets hard to get decent magic weapons. You can delay it by getting boots of speed, dex items, a str item and so on first, but eventually you get stuck and need a good magic weapon for damage. If he can transition from throwing to archery via common feats like rapid shot it may be nice.

Buying it is fine, but poisons are the one exception to the craft rules that I know of, and it is well worth taking advantage of. If the materials are available, they cost 1/6th of the final cost, and you craft in GP rather than SP. If you can hit a craft check of 25 you can make 8 doses a week for 100gp. At that price you can be throwing it around like candy. If you want a higher save then you can even crack out the deathblade, and it will only cost you 300gp (and 3 weeks), or large scorpion venom at 3 doses a week. It is a mundane that can really use downtime.

The magic weapon thing is annoying, requiring you to get proficiency with shuriken at some point (This build is very feat heavy). At least shuriken allow you to start throwing on things like flame arrow to get damage up if you need it. The build is not about damage though. You are never going to be able to match a charger, so why bother. What you can do is throw 5 tanglefoot bags a round, which never gets old (one of the few effects not covered by freedom of movement, and evasion only covers damaging effects. No charging for anybody without iron heart surge!). If the DM lets you light smokesticks with alchemists fire then you can control lines of sight too. Throw on a spell storing javelin or two and you can effectively let the party wizard nova spectacularly (effectively letting them cast spells without in combat actions... at range). Damage is for big dumb fighters.

[Vogonjeltz]

How about:

Race: Human
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (CChamp), Bonus: PB Shot. Skirmish 1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Precise Shot. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (CSc). Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
7) Ranger 4. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
8) Ranger 5.


This build against a stone giant will do:
2.625 damage per round average (3.075 with rapidshot, 3.525 if rapidshot and within 30')
3.325 damage per round average if giants are the 2nd favored enemy (3.975 with rapidshot, 4.425 if also within 30')
4.175 damage per round average if giants are the 1st favored enemy (5.1 with rapidshot, 5.325 if also within 30')

So his damage per round comes to 5.325 in the best case scenario. Please note this includes the skirmish damage at this level, so I'm assuming the ability to use travel devotion 24/7, even though it's only accessible for 1 minute a day.

By comparison, a Fighter build would average 5.775 per round, 9.975 with rapid shot and 12.65 with rapidshot and within 30', or more than twice as much.

Fighter feats used: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow), Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Manyshot, Improved Rapid shot, Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing).

Of course, the scout/ranger combo will have more skill points, and some non-combat bonus feats, but it isn't even half as effective in combat (owing to low attack bonuses) and has substantially less AC and hp.

So I advise against it if combat is the primary focus.

[Nihilarian]

I would go Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 8/Slayer 10. (Not necessarily in that order)

Some interesting powers are
Expansion: if you're a Zen Archer this won't completely tank your to-hit.
Hustle: Move and Full Attack in the same round.
Dissolving Weapon: The duration on this is instantaneous. Manifest it on your off-days or dump whatever power points you have left before bed, for essentially free acid damage.

There are also some archery powers in Complete Psionic, but I've never used them.

[ericgrau]

Buying it is fine, but poisons are the one exception to the craft rules that I know of, and it is well worth taking advantage of. If the materials are available, they cost 1/6th of the final cost, and you craft in GP rather than SP. If you can hit a craft check of 25 you can make 8 doses a week for 100gp. At that price you can be throwing it around like candy. If you want a higher save then you can even crack out the deathblade, and it will only cost you 300gp (and 3 weeks), or large scorpion venom at 3 doses a week. It is a mundane that can really use downtime.

The magic weapon thing is annoying, requiring you to get proficiency with shuriken at some point (This build is very feat heavy). At least shuriken allow you to start throwing on things like flame arrow to get damage up if you need it. The build is not about damage though. You are never going to be able to match a charger, so why bother. What you can do is throw 5 tanglefoot bags a round, which never gets old (one of the few effects not covered by freedom of movement, and evasion only covers damaging effects. No charging for anybody without iron heart surge!). If the DM lets you light smokesticks with alchemists fire then you can control lines of sight too. Throw on a spell storing javelin or two and you can effectively let the party wizard nova spectacularly (effectively letting them cast spells without in combat actions... at range). Damage is for big dumb fighters.
Craft checks are a good way to save several gp every week... which is exactly what makes them so worthless. It is a pittance to adventuring. Maybe if you somehow got a few months of downtime you could save a little bit.

Alchemical items are very nice but likewise they are better at lower levels. They really shine around level 5 or so when you can afford plenty. They are still good and it is a good idea to have some at level 7 or 8, but again they aren't so hot by 11 or 12.

Chargers don't really count:
(a) I'd never play with the obvious oversight that is heedless charge... how many people even remember that's what it's really called? Now what are the other 2/3 called? What are the other surrounding feats? How many optimized chargers opt to go without this one feat out of a thousand? That should tell you something right there.
(b) When your special effects are worse than your own high level damage, that should tell you something about how great your special effects are compared to other damage builds. At high level, not low level. At low or mid level they're awesome.
(c) Range can hit many more foes than melee, and often get a round or two before melee's first attack. That avoids overkill so it may take down more foes, and may prevent some enemy damage. That's something that a raw damage amount doesn't show, whether you're comparing it to ranged damage or ranged special effects.

[ace rooster]

Craft checks are a good way to save several gp every week... which is exactly what makes them so worthless. It is a pittance to adventuring. Maybe if you somehow got a few months of downtime you could save a little bit.

Alchemical items are very nice but likewise they are better at lower levels. They really shine around level 5 or so when you can afford plenty. They are still good and it is a good idea to have some at level 7 or 8, but again they aren't so hot by 11 or 12.

Chargers don't really count:
(a) I'd never play with the obvious oversight that is heedless charge... how many people even remember that's what it's really called? Now what are the other 2/3 called? What are the other surrounding feats? How many optimized chargers opt to go without this one feat out of a thousand? That should tell you something right there.
(b) When your special effects are worse than your own high level damage, that should tell you something about how great your special effects are compared to other damage builds. At high level, not low level. At low or mid level they're awesome.
(c) Range can hit many more foes than melee, and often get a round or two before melee's first attack. That avoids overkill so it may take down more foes, and may prevent some enemy damage. That's something that a raw damage amount doesn't show, whether you're comparing it to ranged damage or ranged special effects.

Poisons craft 10x faster. A DC 25 check nets you 500gp in profit per week, which means that creating a character assuming 3 months of craft time (not unreasonable) you can add 6000gp to effective starting wealth. That is not small at level 8. Alchemical items have the advantage that they are touch attacks, can be mixed into a salvo, and can also have poison applied (Dragon bile for a DC26 3d6 str, costs you 250gp). Those attacks at -15 to hit can still be useful. A single alchemists fire is nigh on useless at high levels, but if you can hit a caster with 8 of them in a raging flame area then suddenly that concentration check for ongoing damage averages at 38+ spell level. This is before you start throwing things with shrink item on them or fire seeds (with a friendly druid you can output up to 200d6 fire damage a round, split among 10 touch attacks. Can be metamagiced). If your "special effects" (I like this description) are not more useful than doing 300 damage to an enemy with 500hp, then you are not being imaginative enough. :smallsmile: