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13_CBS
2007-03-11, 12:53 AM
Ive never played D&D, but by looking at the d20.org website, it seems as if THE strongest monster is an ancient wyrm force dragon at a 59 challenge rating.

In your opinions, what is the most powerful monster that a balanced party of people could face? Powerful can mean anything from higtest CR to whatever.

Edit: "Monster" = any being excluding Gods, Lords of Hell, unique lords of the Abyss (although to my knowledge they're mostly Gods anyway), etc.

Basically, anything you'd find under the Monster or Bestiary section in a book, once again excluding any Gods, Lords of Hell, etc.

Roland St. Jude
2007-03-11, 12:55 AM
Ao?Extra text

13_CBS
2007-03-11, 12:58 AM
Ah, I shall rephrase:

Any monster NOT including unique folks (Asmodeus, the Lords of Hell, Gods, etc).

Assassinfox
2007-03-11, 01:05 AM
Hecatoncheire.

Jasdoif
2007-03-11, 01:10 AM
An atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal), perhaps? Negative levels and free undead abound.

greenknight
2007-03-11, 01:13 AM
Ever since 3.0e, it's been fairly routine to customize a moster by Hit Die advancement, character class levels and templates. So no matter how powerful a particular creature is, it's usually possible to make it more powerful in some way.

Behold_the_Void
2007-03-11, 01:18 AM
Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon), by CR, 66.

Ominous
2007-03-11, 02:50 AM
I believe the Slayer's Guide to Giants has the Land Giant monster with a CR of 1,000. It sticks out in my mind, as I had never seen a CR over 66 before that.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-11, 03:00 AM
Nothing can have a CR of 1000. CR becomes meaningless much, much, much, much, MUCH earlier.

Incidentally, note that the Great Wyrm Prismatic is still just as vulnerable to dex drain as any other dragon.
(Well, not really, it can defend against it much, much better. Like with Epic Spellcasting.)

The Orange Zergling
2007-03-11, 04:01 AM
Didnt someone on Wikipedia make a 1,000,000+ CR turtle that was the size of a planet?

JadedDM
2007-03-11, 04:10 AM
I thought the Tarrasque was always the most powerful monster in D&D lore.

JaronK
2007-03-11, 04:13 AM
Heh, that dragon still goes down to a Maximized Shivering Touch delivered with a Spectral Hand.

Anyway, any monster can be made better by just adding templates. Not many people want to fight a Half Celestial, Half Gold Dragon, Half Silver Dragon, Half Copper Dragon, Half Bronze Dragon, Half Amethyst Dragon, Half White Dragon, Half Red Dragon, Half Black Dragon, Half Blue Dragon, Half Green Dragon, Half Black Dragon Terrasque, for example. And yes, that critter is silly, but by Raw it's also legal (and really smart!).

JaronK

Extra_Crispy
2007-03-11, 04:21 AM
This may seem counter to the CR 66 dragon but one of the most powerful monsters I saw was from the Warcraft RPG, a CR 1 spider. Easy to kill, like 10 HP, and AC of like 14, and it did little damage on its only attack, a bite attack, like d4+1 or something. The two dirty thing were 1) they traveled in packs, 5 was common. And the dirtiest -- their bite did a perminate energy drain, (and they were not undead) not of 1 level or 1 stat point NO, 1d4 levels per bite with a save of around 14 (I think)

In other words a challange rating 1 critter could bite a 4th level fighter and kill him outright, and they traveled in packs! When I ran the game for a few sessions to see how it played I dumbed down the monster ALOT, as in the PC's lost 1 level with a lower save and another save after 24 hours to get the level back. Just think a 4 person party of 4th level characters would face like 16 of these things to make it a CR 4 encounter, on average a level 4 party may have a AC of 16-18 which means that this spider, which I think had a +2 to hit would hit about 40% of the time with 16 attacks that 1 hit has a good chance kill a party member out right, and on average 2-3 hits would kill a person.

The CR 66 dragon is very nasty but that means it faces a party of 4, 66th level characters. At that level the characters are basically gods and have ways of dealing with the dragon. but at 1st level facing that spider let alone a pack of them.....

Ninja Chocobo
2007-03-11, 04:31 AM
Heh, that dragon still goes down to a Maximized Shivering Touch delivered with a Spectral Hand.

Anyway, any monster can be made better by just adding templates. Not many people want to fight a Half Celestial, Half Gold Dragon, Half Silver Dragon, Half Copper Dragon, Half Bronze Dragon, Half Amethyst Dragon, Half White Dragon, Half Red Dragon, Half Black Dragon, Half Blue Dragon, Half Green Dragon, Half Black Dragon Terrasque, for example. And yes, that critter is silly, but by Raw it's also legal (and really smart!).

JaronK
More templates!
Celestial Fiendish Half-Celestial Half-Fiend Half-Giant Half-Troll Half-Illithid Ti-Khana Chimeric Tauric Voidmind Titanic Lich Vampiric Were-Everything [What JaronK said] of Legend.

Maryring
2007-03-11, 04:35 AM
The most powerful monster in DnD? The DM of course.

Jack Mann
2007-03-11, 04:57 AM
I thought the Tarrasque was always the most powerful monster in D&D lore.

Not even in Core. A great Wyrm Gold, I believe, is the highest CR in the MM (27). The Tarrasque is either very easy, or very difficult to defeat, depending on your level of preparation, and expertise. It's not even that hard for its level. A cleric commanding a few allips can take it out in a couple of rounds, especially if he has them attack from under ground (making sure it can't make more than one attack on them each round).

Penguinizer
2007-03-11, 05:03 AM
More templates!
Celestial Fiendish Half-Celestial Half-Fiend Half-Giant Half-Troll Half-Illithid Ti-Khana Chimeric Tauric Voidmind Titanic Lich Vampiric Were-Everything [What JaronK said] of Legend.


Dont forget pseudonatural and paragon.

Attilargh
2007-03-11, 06:39 AM
So... A Pseudonatural Celestial Fiendish Half-Fiend Half-Giant Half-Troll Half-Illithid Ti-Khana Chimeric Tauric Voidmind Titanic Lich Vampiric Half-Celestial, Half Gold Dragon, Half Silver Dragon, Half Copper Dragon, Half Bronze Dragon, Half Amethyst Dragon, Half White Dragon, Half Red Dragon, Half Black Dragon, Half Blue Dragon, Half Green Dragon, Half Brass Dragon Were-Tarrasque Paragon of Legend?

That's about... 850% of creature.

Who wants to do the math for abilities and whatnot?

Saph
2007-03-11, 06:54 AM
I've never really liked templates. Class levels are much more fun. And the Draconomicon has a bunch of PrC's for dragons . . .

A Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon Ascendant would probably do the job. I can't remember if they've got any weaknesses whatsoever by the time they finish the Dragon Ascendant PrC, but I doubt it.

Although seriously, why bother? It's a lot faster and has the same result just to say "You die, roll up new characters."

- Saph

Kiero
2007-03-11, 07:06 AM
The GMPC. Any monster in which the GM is so heavily invested that the powers of fiat bend time and space around it.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-03-11, 10:35 AM
Didnt someone on Wikipedia make a 1,000,000+ CR turtle that was the size of a planet?
Great A'Tuin. CR 84,431,558, actually... (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle)

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-11, 10:42 AM
Anything that can go Pun-Pun. Nothing can beat a Pun-Pun. Except for Orlies and Macro Cats.

Catch
2007-03-11, 10:56 AM
Anything that can go Pun-Pun. Nothing can beat a Pun-Pun. Except for Orlies and Macro Cats.

Godwin's law. Thread over.

Emperor Demonking
2007-03-11, 11:14 AM
What level is pun-pun, I've forgot.
But yes the loads of half templates is how to make it powerful but would it be better to have a base creature of great wrym prismatic dragon than a tarrasque.

The Glyphstone
2007-03-11, 11:19 AM
I think they got it down to 3rd....

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-11, 11:20 AM
Add all of that to a Pun-Pun A'Tuin and you win the thread.

The Orange Zergling
2007-03-11, 11:25 AM
Great A'Tuin. CR 84,431,558, actually... (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle)

Ah, thank you for the link and correction.

Neo
2007-03-11, 11:49 AM
Terrasques are immune to ability damage and drain, which I thought would have been noticed in the old thread about it.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-11, 01:34 PM
Terrasques are immune to ability damage and drain, which I thought would have been noticed in the old thread about it.

It's immune to ability damage and energy drain. It's not immune to ability drain.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-11, 01:35 PM
Great A'Tuin. CR 84,431,558, actually... (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle)

And you can disable it with one second-level spell!

Ominous
2007-03-11, 08:43 PM
Nothing can have a CR of 1000. CR becomes meaningless much, much, much, much, MUCH earlier.

Incidentally, note that the Great Wyrm Prismatic is still just as vulnerable to dex drain as any other dragon.
(Well, not really, it can defend against it much, much better. Like with Epic Spellcasting.)

I was mistaken. I finally found my Slayer's Guide for Giants and the Land Giant has a CR of 90. I was only off by 910. :smalltongue:

bosssmiley
2007-03-11, 08:47 PM
You lot wanna look at volume 1 of the Bestiary for Upper Krust's "Immortals Handbook". There are things in there with CRs from 25 to around 9,200 (the Neutronium Golem). All with internally consistent D&D stats.

Mr._Blinky
2007-03-11, 10:02 PM
And you can disable it with one second-level spell!
And its saves only rank in the millions!

And even if you manage to find a second level killer spell that allows spell resistance instead of saves (I checked and didn't see one, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist), it's the same as saying a first level commoner armed with a dagger can kill a great wyrm dragon...if the dragon asked him to do it and stuck its neck out, lifted the scale itself, and provided him with the dagger. The second level spell will only really work if you put them in a situation they will never be in with any shred of logic.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-11, 10:26 PM
Ray of Stupidity. 1d4+1 INT damage. SR's an issue... but there are ways of bypassing that completely, such as Beguiler 20.

Unless I've somehow missed an immunity to ability damage in the entry.

Assassinfox
2007-03-11, 10:40 PM
The Lady of Pain.

* ducks behind a tower shield before people start screaming "BLASPHEMY!" *

Ted_Stryker
2007-03-12, 12:06 AM
You lot wanna look at volume 1 of the Bestiary for Upper Krust's "Immortals Handbook". There are things in there with CRs from 25 to around 9,200 (the Neutronium Golem). All with internally consistent D&D stats.
Of course, if you have a derelict starship to fly into its maw, you can take down a Neutronium Golem pretty easily. You might need to have a Krazy Kommodore fly a smaller vessel into it first, though.

Mr._Blinky
2007-03-12, 12:48 AM
Ray of Stupidity. 1d4+1 INT damage. SR's an issue... but there are ways of bypassing that completely, such as Beguiler 20.

Unless I've somehow missed an immunity to ability damage in the entry.
It has no ability damage immunity, or spell resistance, so neither would be a problem. The problem would be getting in a situation where you could actually do this without getting killed. And assuming you find one, since I'm sure one exists, what then? It still isn't dead, and I can't think of any way to kill it.

Seatbelt
2007-03-12, 12:51 AM
Wish? I wish this turtle no longer exists.

Everyman
2007-03-12, 01:11 AM
As a DM, that wish would not only fail, but result in an immediate "fish slap" from an angry deity.:smallsmile:

CharPixie
2007-03-12, 01:44 AM
Humans. Nothing worse than humanity; hordes of wizards, clerics, and paladins all wanting to loot your corpse.

Jack Mann
2007-03-12, 02:01 AM
It has no ability damage immunity, or spell resistance, so neither would be a problem. The problem would be getting in a situation where you could actually do this without getting killed. And assuming you find one, since I'm sure one exists, what then? It still isn't dead, and I can't think of any way to kill it.


Star Turtles are peaceful creatures who carry worlds on their backs. A star turtle will avoid danger when possible, and fight only when unavoidable. It will snake out its neck to snatch at passing meteors or comets that might threaten the world on its back.

See, first, the turtle would have to recognize you as dangerous before you cast the spell. I don't see that happening. If, for some reason, there's a reason it would, you can turn yourself invisible first. With its spot +1, there's not much chance it'd see you.

Granted, figuring out a way to kill it after that is going to be difficult, but you can pretty much keep unconscious by recasting the spell each time it wakes up (when it heals one point of intelligence after resting). Again, invisibility is your friend here.

Now, A'Tuin might be protected by the people living on the Discworld, but that's a separate issue. By itself, it's quite vulnerable to this tactic.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-12, 02:02 AM
Okay, yeah. Humanity as a whole is probably CR 1,000.

JaronK
2007-03-12, 02:04 AM
More templates!
Celestial Fiendish Half-Celestial Half-Fiend Half-Giant Half-Troll Half-Illithid Ti-Khana Chimeric Tauric Voidmind Titanic Lich Vampiric Were-Everything [What JaronK said] of Legend.

Am I the only one who finds the idea of applying the "Titanic" and "Of Legend" templates to the Terrasque? I mean, seriously, Terrasque of Legend? Is there another one that's his idiot younger brother "Terrasque of a few stories here and there"?

Of course, I see nothing at all wrong with stacking 20 or more "Half X" templates. That's just pure joy.

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-12, 02:10 AM
I mean, seriously, Terrasque of Legend? Is there another one that's his idiot younger brother "Terrasque of a few stories here and there"?


Oh, god. Somebody HAS to make an "Of A Few Stories Here And There" template now.

Jack Mann
2007-03-12, 02:12 AM
On it, chief.

marjan
2007-03-12, 02:14 AM
The problem would be getting in a situation where you could actually do this without getting killed.
Take 20 on finger of death?

Avicenex
2007-03-12, 05:25 AM
Tarrasque + Monster of Legend Template = Near Unkillable Creature.

Monster of Legend can grant perma-spell turning, which means

Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster (emphasis mine)

The Wish and Miracle spells are either target, effect, or area. However:

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage) total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) or miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) spell to keep it dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead). (emphasis mine)

This means any Wish or Miracle wishing it dead (and targeting it) turn back on the caster. The only way to get the spell to go through is to have your own Spell Turning activated, and hope that when the wish starts bouncing around, you roll 71-80 on the %, making the spell affect you both.

This doesn't mean the Tarrasque of Legend can kill you--in fact, pretty much anything that can fly can still incapacitate it. But it does make it pretty hard to kill.

Also, at this time I would like to point out that the Hecatoncheires is a truely pathetic monster for it's CR. Looking at the Star Turtle, so is it.

Edit: I would also like to point out you can't just add templates willy-nilly by RAW. Many templates have requirements like creature type, and some templates preclude you from having others.

Jack Mann
2007-03-12, 05:31 AM
Behold! The Monster of a Few Stories Here and There (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37282)!

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-12, 05:32 AM
Behold! The Monster of a Few Stories Here and There (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37282), by JackMann and yours truly.

Edit: snerk.

Charity
2007-03-12, 10:02 AM
Nice one Jack'o'bear... Man with lasers.

So given that the most powerful monster is the last one we made up out of templates, whats the most overpowered for its CR?

Overlard
2007-03-12, 10:18 AM
Nice one Jack'o'bear... Man with lasers.

So given that the most powerful monster is the last one we made up out of templates, whats the most overpowered for its CR?
Not sure, but I know shadows have my players running for the hills whenever they see one, and they're level 10.

Iron_Mouse
2007-03-12, 10:44 AM
Most overpowered for it's CR? Dunno, but adamantium clockwork horrors (MM2) are a good guess. They have disintegrate, implosion and disjunction at will.

And are CR 9.

Telonius
2007-03-12, 11:36 AM
The most powerful monster in the bestiary: the Aleax. The only limit to this thing's power is the players' level of cheesiness.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-12, 01:19 PM
Most overpowered for it's CR? Dunno, but adamantium clockwork horrors (MM2) are a good guess. They have disintegrate, implosion and disjunction at will.

And are CR 9.

What... the... HELL?

Charity
2007-03-12, 01:22 PM
well we met an Aboleth CR 7 recently, they are really unpleasant if you have a naff will save, which I certainly had. dominate person (DC17) 3 times a day as a 16th level sorcerer, turn you into a fishman (DC19) fort save,
At will hypnotic pattern(DC 15), illusory wall (DC 17), mirage arcana(DC 18), persistent image(DC 18), programmed image(DC 19), project image(DC 20), veil(DC 19). Effective caster level 16th.
nasty.

JaronK
2007-03-12, 02:30 PM
The templates I listed are actually fully legal, as they don't change type.

Most overpowered for the CR is actually quite easy. It's a Zombie Psuedonatural Half-Celestial [All Half-Dragons] Draconic Half-Fey Half-Troll Half-Iron Golem Anarchic Shadow Dark 5 Headed Cryohydra of Legend. Why? Because adding the Zombie template resets the CR to 1.

Admittedly, it's vulnerable to turning, but other than that the thing is damn near unstoppable. It's even a fast moving flier, so it can use a partial charge action from a very long way away and then attack with all five heads (since Hydras use all their heads to attack as a standard action).

JaronK

NEO|Phyte
2007-03-12, 03:14 PM
Most overpowered for the CR is actually quite easy. It's a Zombie Psuedonatural Half-Celestial [All Half-Dragons] Draconic Half-Fey Half-Troll Half-Iron Golem Anarchic Shadow Dark 5 Headed Cryohydra of Legend. Why? Because adding the Zombie template resets the CR to 1.

Admittedly, it's vulnerable to turning, but other than that the thing is damn near unstoppable. It's even a fast moving flier, so it can use a partial charge action from a very long way away and then attack with all five heads (since Hydras use all their heads to attack as a standard action).
Its a shame that the Zombie template at the end removes all Special Attacks and most Special Qualities of the thing, although I guess the STR and DEX boosts can make for a bit of a nasty beastie.
:edit: Oh, and the CR would be 3, because the zombie doubles the HD of the base monster.

JaronK
2007-03-12, 06:12 PM
Ah right. And yeah, you lose a lot of the advantages, but it's still a CR 3 critter with a strength somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 and an AC in the low tripple digits. It's also got a move speed of I believe 45 and a fly of 90, with 5 attacks. Very very nasty.

SeeKay
2007-03-12, 06:13 PM
The most powerful monster?

A Kobold.... with 20 levels of Cleric, 20 of Wizard, 20 of Rogue and 10 of Blackguard (and levels of whatever else to make the party REALLY fear short, yippy, lizard-things)

JaronK
2007-03-12, 06:29 PM
That Kobold has a CR of 70, and honestly isn't very good for an epic caster.

JaronK

Merlin the Tuna
2007-03-12, 08:23 PM
It has no ability damage immunity, or spell resistance, so neither would be a problem. The problem would be getting in a situation where you could actually do this without getting killed. And assuming you find one, since I'm sure one exists, what then? It still isn't dead, and I can't think of any way to kill it.No ability damage immunity? No problem! Here's the team.
Beguiler 20
Warblade 17
Books: Spell Compendium, Tome of Battle, PHB 2, (Complete Adventurer?)Step one, obviously, is the Beguiler unleashing Ray of Stupidity on the beast. He bypasses SR (which this creature doesn't seem to have anyway), instantly knocking the turtle out.

Now comes the Warblade. One maneuver is all he needs: Mountain Tombstone Strike (Stone Dragon 9). His main hand holds... you know what, let's say it holds nothing. He'll punch the turtle. His off-hand, on the other hand, holds a wand of Wraithstrike (4500 gp, Complete Adventurer; might be reprinted in Spell Compendium). He activates the wand as a swift action, meaning his attacks resolve as touch attacks; he should have no trouble hitting an AC of -4 million. With his standard action, he uses Mountain Tombstone Strike, dealing 2d6 Con damage, no save. His next turn, he uses a swift action to initiate recovery and spends a standard action posing like a badass to finish recovery. Rinse and repeat.

He can launch a MTS every other round, meaning he deals about 3.5 Con damage per round. The turtle has 107 Con. Thus, he needs 31 turns to reach 0 Con, slaying the creature. This amounts to about 16 strikes, meaning he can roll a natural one 34 times without running out of wand power.

Alternatively, the Warblade could be Wiz 3/Clr 1/Any Martial Adept 16 and just use DMM: Persist to have a 24 hour Wraithstrike, avoiding the need for the wand altogether.

So yeah, there you go, a means to elbow drop a CR 84k creature to death in under 5 minutes. Enjoy.

Edit: Whoops, just saw the errata on DMM; divine spells only. Can Anyspell nonsense dodge that? That would make Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator work, I think. Alternatively, there's apparently a DMG 2 item that splits a spell's effects between the caster and another character while cutting the duration in half. A Wiz 3/Clr 1 could DMM: Persist that and split it with the Warblade, as well.

Mr._Blinky
2007-03-12, 10:19 PM
Wish? I wish this turtle no longer exists.
Yeah, Wish doesn't work like that, at least not without a save. Which this thing happens to happens to have in the millions.


Take 20 on finger of death?
And I suppose taking 20 is really supposed to get past its saves? Oh, and you can't take 20 on a spell.

See, first, the turtle would have to recognize you as dangerous before you cast the spell. I don't see that happening. If, for some reason, there's a reason it would, you can turn yourself invisible first. With its spot +1, there's not much chance it'd see you.

Granted, figuring out a way to kill it after that is going to be difficult, but you can pretty much keep unconscious by recasting the spell each time it wakes up (when it heals one point of intelligence after resting). Again, invisibility is your friend here.

Now, A'Tuin might be protected by the people living on the Discworld, but that's a separate issue. By itself, it's quite vulnerable to this tactic.

No ability damage immunity? No problem! Here's the team.
Beguiler 20
Warblade 17
Books: Spell Compendium, Tome of Battle, PHB 2, (Complete Adventurer?) Step one, obviously, is the Beguiler unleashing Ray of Stupidity on the beast. He bypasses SR (which this creature doesn't seem to have anyway), instantly knocking the turtle out.

Now comes the Warblade. One maneuver is all he needs: Mountain Tombstone Strike (Stone Dragon 9). His main hand holds... you know what, let's say it holds nothing. He'll punch the turtle. His off-hand, on the other hand, holds a wand of Wraithstrike (4500 gp, Complete Adventurer; might be reprinted in Spell Compendium). He activates the wand as a swift action, meaning his attacks resolve as touch attacks; he should have no trouble hitting an AC of -4. With his standard action, he uses Mountain Tombstone Strike, dealing 2d6 Con damage, no save. His next turn, he uses a swift action to initiate recovery and spends a standard action posing like a badass to finish recovery. Rinse and repeat.

He can launch a MTS every other round, meaning he deals about 3.5 Con damage per round. The turtle has 107 Con. Thus, he needs 31 turns to reach 0 Con, slaying the creature. This amounts to about 16 strikes, meaning he can roll a natural one 34 times without running out of wand power.

Alternatively, the Warblade could be Wiz 3/Clr 1/Any Martial Adept 16 and just use DMM: Persist to have a 24 hour Wraithstrike, avoiding the need for the wand altogether.

So yeah, there you go, a means to elbow drop a CR 84k creature to death in under 5 minutes. Enjoy.

Edit: Whoops, just saw the errata on DMM; divine spells only. Can Anyspell nonsense dodge that? That would make Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator work, I think. Alternatively, there's apparently a DMG 2 item that splits a spell's effects between the caster and another character while cutting the duration in half. A Wiz 3/Clr 1 could DMM: Persist that and split it with the Warblade, as well.

See, these two actually work, and prove that the turtle, being just a massive mound of HP, is actually severely underpowed for its level. I've seen a number of different examples of Epic creatures like this. One of the problems with Epic warriors is that once you get to a certain point, hitting stuff with metal becomes pretty futile, whereas a mage can just flick you off and you'll spontaneously combust.

Douglas
2007-03-12, 11:17 PM
Step one, obviously, is the Beguiler unleashing Ray of Stupidity on the beast. He bypasses SR (which this creature doesn't seem to have anyway), instantly knocking the turtle out.
A'tuin uses his Exceptional Infinite Reflection to send it right back at you.

The rest assumes A'tuin can't hit back, so I don't need to find flaws in it yet.

marjan
2007-03-12, 11:17 PM
And I suppose taking 20 is really supposed to get past its saves? Oh, and you can't take 20 on a spell.

That was a joke and by the way it means you just cast the spell until it gets a natural 1. But before that you cast ray of stupidity.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-03-12, 11:42 PM
A'tuin uses his Exceptional Infinite Reflection to send it right back at you.Ah, good catch. Luckily, since the thing doesn't actually have SR, we don't need a Beguiler. Swap the Beguiler out for a basic gish; Spellsword 4 will take care of that with Channel Spell, and he can supply his own Wraithstrike to connect. Spell Storing weapons would also work, but they specifically state that the creature must take damage for the spell to discharge. This could be bypassed by making the weapon a Wounding weapon, which incidentally would speed up this process quite a bit anyway, especially if we add a few more Warblade levels and snag Time Stands Still. Wounding gets stopped by immunity to crits, but I don't see that on the turtle's sheet.

Edit: New toy! New toy! We don't need Ray of Stupidity (and thus Spell Compendium) at all! Otto's Irresistible Dance will do the job better. Since it causes the target to draw AoOs on its turn, we can get more Wounding swipes in!

Man, I might end up putting together a 4 man party to see how quickly I can do this.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-03-13, 01:31 AM
So... A Pseudonatural Celestial Fiendish Half-Fiend Half-Giant Half-Troll Half-Illithid Ti-Khana Chimeric Tauric Voidmind Titanic Lich Vampiric Half-Celestial, Half Gold Dragon, Half Silver Dragon, Half Copper Dragon, Half Bronze Dragon, Half Amethyst Dragon, Half White Dragon, Half Red Dragon, Half Black Dragon, Half Blue Dragon, Half Green Dragon, Half Brass Dragon Half-Fey Half-Golem (all) Woodling Draconic Were-Tarrasque Paragon of Legend
I call it: "The Amalgamation"

Goff
2007-03-13, 01:57 AM
The most powerful monster in DnD? The DM of course.

DMs are so broken, they should be houseruled out of any fair game.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-13, 01:57 AM
A'tuin uses his Exceptional Infinite Reflection to send it right back at you.

You can't do that when you're flatfooted.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-03-13, 02:19 AM
You can't do that when you're flatfooted.Deflect Arrows actually doesn't require an immediate action; it's got no restrictions on when it can and can't be used.

The_Snark
2007-03-13, 02:33 AM
It doesn't require an action, but it does say you have to be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

Easily fixed, though, by giving it uncanny dodge and maybe Supreme Initiative. It snatches meteors and comets, so it makes sense.

Douglas
2007-03-13, 02:51 AM
That still wouldn't stop the Spellsword channeling Ray of Stupidity, though. What it really needs is immunity, or at least a lot of resistance, to ability damage and drain because those bypass its hit dice. Energy drain isn't really an issue because it has millions upon millions of hit dice to just absorb it with. I'd say make up some epic feats that reduce ability damage/drain in general, rather than just from radiation poisoning, and change some of the twenty million Epic Toughness feats to those. The requirements can be outlandishly high and still be easily satisfied by the liberal application of Great X or other epic feats, which this turtle certainly has enough feat slots to spare to spend on. Something to remove auto-fail on 1 for saves should also be added.

Falrin
2007-03-13, 02:54 AM
Chuck Norris.

CR Infinite (As he counted himself. Twice.)


IIRC there is a post about him somewhere on this board.

The_Snark
2007-03-13, 02:55 AM
What it really needs is some divine rank. That solves a lot of its problems, right there.

Draz74
2007-03-13, 04:55 PM
Nice one Jack'o'bear... Man with lasers.

So given that the most powerful monster is the last one we made up out of templates, whats the most overpowered for its CR?

Where'd the Ikea Tarrasque go when you need him?

What was the minimum CR that they ever got the Ikea Tarrasque down to? Like 4, wasn't it?

(A creature that actually doesn't have to have anything in common with the tarrasque except fire immunity. By adding a few clever templates (including Swarm, I think), it becomes completely invulnerable. Immune to everything. Yeah.

Good thing its offensive capabilities don't get boosted much. So unless you started with a high-CR something, like the Tarrasque, you probably just have a stalemate encounter.)

Douglas
2007-03-13, 05:08 PM
I didn't even have to restrict a search to these boards, the very first hit on an unrestricted google search for "Ikea Tarrasque", even without the quotes, is the correct thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160). For just +7 CR, this combination of templates grants pretty damn close to total invulnerability, and the strength boost plus berserk, Haste, and wounding attacks keep its offensive punch at least within shouting distance of typical for its supposed CR.

Black Mage
2007-03-13, 05:17 PM
Great A'Tuin. CR 84,431,558, actually... (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/A%27tuin_the_Star_Turtle)

Now to roll up a character that can kill this thing....:bigeek:

JaronK
2007-03-13, 05:22 PM
Now to roll up a character that can kill this thing....:bigeek:

Read this thread, it's already been figured out. All you have to do is 2 points of Int damage with no save and then you can Coup De Gras him 20ish times (he'll roll that natural 1 eventually) or otherwise kill him while he's helpless.

JaronK

NullAshton
2007-03-13, 05:23 PM
The most powerful monster?

The DM.

Black Mage
2007-03-13, 05:32 PM
Meh, just saw how easily you guys killed it. How about you add the paragon and psuedonatural templates onto it and then see how easily you can kill it.

Thats a SR of 1,006,632,960.

A TON of tentacles too...:smalleek: 50,331,648 to be exact :smalleek:

JaronK
2007-03-13, 05:42 PM
Again, a Beguiler 20 can bypass SR.

Problem solved.

JaronK

Black Mage
2007-03-13, 05:48 PM
What about tossing the half golem template on it then? Doesn't that grant you the magic immunity of whatever golem you are half of? I don't have the books with me at the moment so I can't check myself.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-13, 06:03 PM
The golem's "magic immunity" is actually just infinite SR.
When you can bypass SR...

Draz74
2007-03-13, 06:07 PM
No, RAW, a golem's spell immunity is NOT just "SR infinity."


A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) that allows spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance).

So, it would be a perfectly valid DM interperetation for a Beguiler 20 vs. a Golem to say, "The spell itself allows SR. Therefore, even though you are bypassing SR when you cast it, you are not bypassing the Golem's immunity to this spell."

Of course, he could rule the other way just as legally. It seems both interperetations have equal merit to me.

This is all assuming that the Beguiler ability doesn't clarify the issue explicitly.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-13, 06:10 PM
Hmm, I seem to recall the phrase "unbeatable SR" from somewhere...

Douglas
2007-03-13, 06:39 PM
Now to roll up a character that can kill this thing....:bigeek:
For a real challenge, try building a character that can kill an Ikea Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160) version of it. :smalleek: Does anyone want to calculate just how many Disintigrates, Move Earths, etc. would be needed to pull it off?

Rigeld2
2007-03-14, 07:33 AM
Hmm, I seem to recall the phrase "unbeatable SR" from somewhere...
People who dont understand what "Magic Immunity" is. Because theres a different S.Q. caled Immune to Magic that is essentially unbeatable SR.

Baalzebub
2007-03-14, 07:41 AM
A well prepared Prismatic Dragon is invincible. Sure, he goes down with a spell to drain Dex or something like that, but that's only if you catch him unpreprared. If he knows your'e coming, which will be the most probable option, he will buff himself before engaging with the party.

Thrawn183
2007-03-14, 07:50 AM
Well, I've been toying with the idea of a phrenic Hive Mother. I realized that a beholder's eye rays are free actions so anything that adds spell-like or psionic-like abilities doesn't run into problems with running out of actions:

Round 1: 6 eye rays at a single target (could be more than one), fission
Round 2: 12 eye rays at a single target (could be more than one), two ultrablasts

And I'm pretty sure this only increases its CR by 3 from 16 to 19. You should NOT be able to use that many save or die abilities of DC 29 in a round at CR 19. Ever.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-03-14, 07:51 AM
So Batman is a Prismatic Dragon?

Baalzebub
2007-03-14, 08:30 AM
So Batman is a Prismatic Dragon?

Maybe :smalleek:

Assassinfox
2007-03-14, 12:57 PM
Would've linked to this earlier, but the site was down.

BEHOLD!

http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=385

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-14, 01:31 PM
Oh dear. Still, I think that CR209 is unwarranted. I think that, a 209th level party could fill the multiverse, or at least Sigil, with a large enough generic spell of 'Everything Dies' (Near Infinite D20 damage, fort to half) to destroy her. She's just a very, very hard monster. With blades. She doesn't have the 'protection from everything' wielded by nastier things such as the Ikea Tarrasque, the Cheater of Mystra, that kobold, or even worse, Monty (feel like rebuilding the timeline so that nothing bad can possibly happen to you?).

Assassinfox
2007-03-14, 01:36 PM
I recognize those other ones, but who's Monty?

And that spell the way you described it wouldn't kill her, thanks to regeneration. Unless I'm missing something. o.O

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-14, 01:42 PM
Monty was a creation, later subsumed into Pun-Pun, who used a drilbu of temporal regression, and Far Realms planar traits to move back and forth through time, 'scrubbing it' to prevent bad stuff happening. There are forty pages of discussion on this at the WotC Char-Op boards; it has been defeated, but to do it requires a large amount of Annuli, Time Stops, and Iron Heart Surges.

lumberofdabeast
2007-03-14, 05:59 PM
How come no one refers to Pun-Pun by his true name? Is he like Voldemort?

EDIT: You know, I really should finish reading a topic before posting.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-15, 03:31 PM
Godwin's law. Pun-Pun named, thread over.

EDIT: on topic, I've never liked those monsters with low CRs, but absolute immunity to things. Will o'the Wisp was discussed here recently. CR 4, but immune to all magic save magic missile? What?

Jack Mann
2007-03-15, 03:59 PM
Godwin's law, even applied to Pun-Pun, does not mean that a given thread is over. Simply that, if the discussion goes on long enough, Pun-Pun's name will come up. No more, no less.

turtleant120
2007-03-15, 06:02 PM
Put half red dragon on a Tarrasque, dye him green and TADA!

ITS GODZILLA!!!

Somebody should stat out Pun-Pun.

Jack Mann
2007-03-15, 06:05 PM
Pun-Pun is statted out. That's the point.

turtleant120
2007-03-15, 06:07 PM
I ment create the stat block for him.
Sorry for the confusion.

kamikasei
2007-03-15, 08:15 PM
Godwin's law, even applied to Pun-Pun, does not mean that a given thread is over. Simply that, if the discussion goes on long enough, Pun-Pun's name will come up. No more, no less.

Godwin's law only as applied to Pun-Pun means that. The original Godwin's law does state that, once someone brings up the Nazis to support their side of an argument, the argument is over and that person has automatically lost.

However, it also states that trying to do this deliberately to end a troublesome discussion doesn't work. Neither of these clauses apply to Pun-Pun, though.

Jack Mann
2007-03-15, 08:23 PM
No. That is not Godwin's Law. The precise wording, as originally proposed by Mike Godwin, is "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Nothing about a thread being over, or the person having lost. That would be an rather stupid rule, since there are times in which a comparison to the Nazis or Hitler is appropriate, despite the frequent misuse.

NullAshton
2007-03-15, 08:51 PM
I was bored one day, really REALLY bored, and wrote the stats for Chuck Norris. CR of infinity.

Incidentally enough, Monty is completely immune to Pun Pun. It would be impossible for Pun Pun to affect his life in any negative way as long as the loop is set into place. No matter what Pun Pun tries, he will always do something such as roll natural 1s.

kamikasei
2007-03-15, 10:06 PM
No. That is not Godwin's Law. The precise wording, as originally proposed by Mike Godwin, is "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Nothing about a thread being over, or the person having lost. That would be an rather stupid rule, since there are times in which a comparison to the Nazis or Hitler is appropriate, despite the frequent misuse.

Hmm, you're right. The additions I mentioned are apparently corollaries.

It seems my memory of the Jargon File has betrayed me.

Brettoe
2007-03-16, 12:15 AM
The most powerful monster in DnD? The DM of course.

That's so true! someone could throw a blunt seashell and you'd die!

marjan
2007-03-16, 12:20 AM
Put half red dragon on a Tarrasque, dye him green and TADA!

ITS GODZILLA!!!
Wouldn't it be easier with half green dragon. I mean where do you think you will find that much green dye.

Jack Mann
2007-03-16, 12:40 AM
And really, Pun-Pun is actually reasonable to bring up, if only as an aside, since he is, arguably, the most powerful creature in D&D, challenged only by other powerbuilds.

turtleant120
2007-03-16, 02:12 PM
Wouldn't it be easier with half green dragon. I mean where do you think you will find that much green dye.
But then he wouldn't breathe fire.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-16, 02:15 PM
is the flying weapon equiped big T of course. Magic particle cannons, regen, fly of perfect....or the DM

Sciath
2010-05-10, 08:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Undead Tarrasque? A Tarrasque takes purely non-lethal damage due to its ungodly hide, undead are immune to non-lethal damage. Only feasible way of killing it I can see is to Mage-hand+Sovereign glue to slap an open bag of holding to its neck, then tie a portable hole around an arrow shaft and fire it into the bag.

I know it may not be the most ridiculous monster, but i think it has the most points for its pure simplicity. I mean, take a monster from MM I and add a single, vanilla 3.5 template and you have a behemoth that is flat-out immune to damage.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-10, 08:35 PM
http://angelicvoices.net/Thread_Necromancy.jpg



the most powerful monster is Roland St. Jude, CR [aleph]+1, who will be along to lock this thread shortly.


(Incidentally....there is no "Undead' template in 3.5. Specific templates turn creatures into undead, but the Tarrasque doesn't qualify for any of them...and being undead strips it of Regeneration anyways).

Roland St. Jude
2010-05-10, 09:15 PM
the most powerful monster is Roland St. Jude, CR [aleph]+1, who will be along to lock this thread shortly.

Sheriff of Moddingham: Yo diggity.