Master Transmogrifist suggestions?

[Nettlekid]

Weirdly, although there are a couple of threads about this, there aren't a lot of answers given. So here's me, asking for advice.

Assume Shapechange is attainable, so this is a Master Transmogrifist who can turn into anything you can become via Shapechange. This means that Manifest Senses and Manifest Qualities are fairly redundant, but Infinite Variety is all the more valuable for being able to swap around into the same Favored Shape with different forms.

The biggest challenge is choosing Favored Shapes. Because it has to be something you can turn into with Polymorph, that caps the HD at 15 (or 18 if using Reserves of Strength, but I'd prefer not to unless something seriously good comes up) and limits the creature type to exclude Constructs, Outsiders, and Undead unless the caster is already one of those types (which also means that picking race is a big deal. A Warforged, Neraph, or Necropolitan could cover any one of those, but I don't know if there's a way to get more than one of the three. I guess Otherworldly on a Necropolitan Humanoid would do for Outsider and Undead.)

Assuming the Master Transmogrifist wants to have very different Favored Shapes for different purposes, what are some top picks? Keep in mind that Infinite Variety doesn't have to draw from a Favored Shape, only add to one, so I don't have to pick Chronotyryn as a Favored Shape to get Dual Actions because I can take that from Aspect of Demogorgon and add it to any Favored Shape. So I guess the best Favored Shapes are ones that have a lot of abilities on their own (or some really good Su abilities that can't be picked up with Infinite Variety), and can be improved by adding single unique abilities from other forms.

[Nettlekid]

Really, no suggestions for monsters with powerful abilities? The list I've drawn up so far is:

Favored Shapes:
Sun Giant (Huge, Str 37)
Stalker Void Hound (Free action invisibility, can't be seen by Blindsight)
Overseer Beholder (8 tentacles, 3 bites, 10 eye rays)

Not Favored Shapes, but good to use:
Marruspawn Abomination (Telepathy, Nondetection, Howl of Petrification 1/1d4)
Zodar (Invulnerable)
Ha-Naga (Colossal)

Good Infinite Variety choices:
Dire Tortoise's Lightning Strike
Aspect of Demogorgon's Dual Actions
Zodar's Invulnerability, and Burst of Strength
Temporal Drake's Progressive Initiative, and Recurrence
Maulgoth's Xorn Movement
Will-o'-Wisp's Magic Immunity, and Natural Invisibility
Taunting Haunt's Font of Knowledge
Shaedling's Shadow Gossamer

The Sun Giant could be replaced by anything else which is big and high Str, and the Void Hound by anything with high stealth (it can still be seen with True Seeing which sucks, but I imagine combining that with the Will-o'-Wisp's Natural Invisibility should solve that). I'm still on the lookout for monsters with skillful abilities and maybe speed. I dunno, what else needs bases covered that deserves a Favored Shape slot?

[Bad Wolf]

Does Shapechange give natural spellcasting? If so, you might want to consider a Golden Protector. It has flight, a breath weapon, smite evil, and has the spellcasting ability of a 8th level cleric. Only has 10 Hit Dice, but you could always ask for it to be advanced to fifteen, or eighteen if you want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I suggest taking a look at the Master of Many Forms bible (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931). There's a big listing of useful forms in there, with their relevant (Ex) abilities.
You probably won't find much (or anything, really) that beats out Dual Actions as your ability of choice for Infinite Variety, at least for general use.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You only gain one thing from Infinite Variety, so only a single extraordinary special attack or quality, even if the creature you choose has multiple abilities that could be gained from this. You can only choose a single ability to add to your form.

In any case, be sure to include Incantatrix 4+ in your build, to use Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your Shapechange.

[Nettlekid]

Does Shapechange give natural spellcasting? If so, you might want to consider a Golden Protector. It has flight, a breath weapon, smite evil, and has the spellcasting ability of a 8th level cleric. Only has 10 Hit Dice, but you could always ask for it to be advanced to fifteen, or eighteen if you want.

If I was a DM, I would rule that it does not, so I'm not going to assume it does.


I suggest taking a look at the Master of Many Forms bible (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931). There's a big listing of useful forms in there, with their relevant (Ex) abilities.
You probably won't find much (or anything, really) that beats out Dual Actions as your ability of choice for Infinite Variety, at least for general use.

Good thought, I forgot that MoMF lets you change into more than just animals, so there will be a lot of options there.

I know Dual Actions is very strong, and one of the best things to have, but the appeal of Master Transmogrifist is the ability to have so many options, so I want to see what they all are.


You only gain one thing from Infinite Variety, so only a single extraordinary special attack or quality, even if the creature you choose has multiple abilities that could be gained from this. You can only choose a single ability to add to your form.

In any case, be sure to include Incantatrix 4+ in your build, to use Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your Shapechange.

I know Infinite Variety only gives one thing, so even if I listed more than one thing for each monster it was just because I could see myself using either one at some point.

Incantatrix is very strong, yeah, but I was thinking that Spelldancer is also powerful and doesn't feel quite as cheesy. I could take forms which are immune to Con damage and fatigue to mitigate the downside.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Free metamagic is cheesy no matter how you get it.

One notable (Ex) ability is the Zern's (MM4) Transmutation Affinity - a flat +4 to the DC of any Transmutation spells you cast is nothing to sneeze at. It makes a pretty good base form for casters, too, with a whole bunch of useful abilities, among them immunity to anything that requires a fort save unless it also affects objects.

[Venger]

how are you getting shapechange via master transmogrifist? it kills 4 caster levels. your chassis will inform, somewhat, what favored shapes are good for you. I'm playing one now and have a very deep bench.

[Necroticplague]

Infinite Variety: Hyrda with a Jelly's Split ability. In your downtime, bite down on yourself until you are legion. Holding deathmatches to see gets to be the real you optional.

[Teh_das]

The polymorphist handbook is a great resource, though special mention goes to the Thoon Elder Brain and the hydra. Extra heads or dual casting on a low HD? Score.

[Nettlekid]

Free metamagic is cheesy no matter how you get it.

One notable (Ex) ability is the Zern's (MM4) Transmutation Affinity - a flat +4 to the DC of any Transmutation spells you cast is nothing to sneeze at. It makes a pretty good base form for casters, too, with a whole bunch of useful abilities, among them immunity to anything that requires a fort save unless it also affects objects.

That's not half bad. Zern might be the perfect "default" form, since it can turn into any Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid while still being a Zern, and thus benefiting from Infinite Variety. You get to pretend to be a Warlock too, which is nice. The DC boost and Malleable Form are just icing on the cake. Incidentally, Malleable Form would be hilarious to use as Infinite Variety on anything else. If the DM rules that "Size Shift" means you can go one size larger or one size smaller, that's great to stick on the Sun Giant. If they rule it actually means Large or Small, then you can have fun taking a Fine creature and making it Large. Whatever that would mean for it.


how are you getting shapechange via master transmogrifist? it kills 4 caster levels. your chassis will inform, somewhat, what favored shapes are good for you. I'm playing one now and have a very deep bench.

This is one of many character builds I'm considering for a level 21 campaign, which means that if I don't lose a single other caster level I can squeeze out 9th level spells. Of course, any non-Epic character could still get it through a staff.

I'm not sure about the chassis. I'm not even sure if I want to go Wizard or Wu Jen, though probably Wizard. Wizard/Master Speciaist/Master Transmogrifist is functional, if plain. I was trying to finagle some early entry stuff to get Spellguard of Silverymoon in there, but I wasn't really feeling it. Perhaps Incantatrix really is best. If possible I'd like to be a Changeling Wizard with 5 levels of Wizard and Improved Familiar to get a large variety of changing Familiars, but that might be more trouble than it's worth. I was also thinking Neraph just to open up Outsider Favored Shapes.

What do you mean by "deep bench"?


Infinite Variety: Hyrda with a Jelly's Split ability. In your downtime, bite down on yourself until you are legion. Holding deathmatches to see gets to be the real you optional.

That's an interesting thought, but nah, that's too complicated. If I was the DM, I'd rule that any spawned "whatevers" are regular "whatevers" and not another "me" under a Shapechange effect. Mind you, good way to get disposable minions. That might tip the scales to Wizard, since I was considering Wu Jen for Body Outside Body.


The polymorphist handbook is a great resource, though special mention goes to the Thoon Elder Brain and the hydra. Extra heads or dual casting on a low HD? Score.

Meh, Hydra is too many attacks to deal with. I'd get sick of rolling. Overseer Beholder gives me plenty, plus the eye beams. And there's nothing the Thoon Elder Brain does that the Aspect of Demogorgon's Dual Actions doesn't do better. I'll check out the handbook though.

[Venger]

This is one of many character builds I'm considering for a level 21 campaign, which means that if I don't lose a single other caster level I can squeeze out 9th level spells. Of course, any non-Epic character could still get it through a staff.
oh, I see. I'm assuming that epic spellcasting isn't something you'll need to worry about, because otherwise your MT's gonna get eaten for lunch.


I'm not sure about the chassis. I'm not even sure if I want to go Wizard or Wu Jen, though probably Wizard. Wizard/Master Speciaist/Master Transmogrifist is functional, if plain. I was trying to finagle some early entry stuff to get Spellguard of Silverymoon in there, but I wasn't really feeling it. Perhaps Incantatrix really is best. If possible I'd like to be a Changeling Wizard with 5 levels of Wizard and Improved Familiar to get a large variety of changing Familiars, but that might be more trouble than it's worth. I was also thinking Neraph just to open up Outsider Favored Shapes.

What do you mean by "deep bench"?
Okay. I've rolled MTs before. they were wizards. changeling wizard is best wizard. you can't pick a favored shape that's the same as your normal type, so neraph won't help you in that regard.

by "deep bench" I mean I've done a lot of research on what would be good shapes and have a lot of them compiled at each HD, but they were assuming access to polymorph, so only up to 15HD. here's the list I came up with:

1: 9 HD 3
Cave Troll 9HD (MM3 177), Will O’ Wisp 9HD (MM1 255), tendriculos 9 HD (MM1 241)
2: 10 HD senses
3: 11HD+1 4 Chuul (MM1 36)
4: 12 HD: swap (tendriculos) for ironmaw (FF 104)
5: 13 HD+1 5, shapechanger Gray Linnorm (MM2 141), swap (chuul) for Ocularon (FF 132)
6: 14 HD
7: 15 HD +1 6, reflexive
Swap (cave troll) for Mountain Troll (mm3 180), Arcane Ooze (MM3 9)
8: 15 HD ex SQs
9: 15 HD +1 7 Kuo-toa Leviathan (Underdark 93)
10: 15 HD infinite variety

I delayed a level so I'd have the highest number of 15 HD forms. if you enter straight away, which it sounds like you do, just jog stuff down a level.

[kardar233]

If you need to cut loose you can use Infinite Variety with Ocean Giant+Zodar for near-invulnerability.

[Nettlekid]

oh, I see. I'm assuming that epic spellcasting isn't something you'll need to worry about, because otherwise your MT's gonna get eaten for lunch.


Okay. I've rolled MTs before. they were wizards. changeling wizard is best wizard. you can't pick a favored shape that's the same as your normal type, so neraph won't help you in that regard.

by "deep bench" I mean I've done a lot of research on what would be good shapes and have a lot of them compiled at each HD, but they were assuming access to polymorph, so only up to 15HD. here's the list I came up with:

1: 9 HD 3
Cave Troll 9HD (MM3 177), Will O’ Wisp 9HD (MM1 255), tendriculos 9 HD (MM1 241)
2: 10 HD senses
3: 11HD+1 4 Chuul (MM1 36)
4: 12 HD: swap (tendriculos) for ironmaw (FF 104)
5: 13 HD+1 5, shapechanger Gray Linnorm (MM2 141), swap (chuul) for Ocularon (FF 132)
6: 14 HD
7: 15 HD +1 6, reflexive
Swap (cave troll) for Mountain Troll (mm3 180), Arcane Ooze (MM3 9)
8: 15 HD ex SQs
9: 15 HD +1 7 Kuo-toa Leviathan (Underdark 93)
10: 15 HD infinite variety

I delayed a level so I'd have the highest number of 15 HD forms. if you enter straight away, which it sounds like you do, just jog stuff down a level.

Yeah, no Epic Spellcasting. Though even if that was a thing, I'd still be just as capable of it as anyone else, so it comes down to a battle between two Wizards anyway, right?

Huh, I had forgotten that a Favored Shape can't be your own type. So it's actually impossible to get a Construct, Elemental, Outsider, or Undead Favored Shape, isn't it?

Any reasoning behind some of those choices? Mountain Troll seems pretty great, better than Sun Giant. Will O' Wisp is good for scouting and hiding, sure, though I think its Natural Invisibility applied to a Void Hound is even better (assuming Natural Invisibility trumps True Seeing.) Apart from that, I don't totally get your choices. Ocularon and Kuo-Toa Leviatan specifically, they don't seem to contribute that much.


If you need to cut loose you can use Infinite Variety with Ocean Giant+Zodar for near-invulnerability.

Not really. If I cheesed it with Reserves of Strength I can get Ocean Giant as a Favored Shape, but I don't want to use Reserves of Strength and Ocean Giant is pretty lame otherwise as a Favored Shape pick. And you can't get Zodar as a Favored Shape, though you could tack on its Invulnerability onto a Favored Shape.

[Venger]

Huh, I had forgotten that a Favored Shape can't be your own type. So it's actually impossible to get a Construct, Elemental, Outsider, or Undead Favored Shape, isn't it?
Correct. this is likely the reason for that rule.


Any reasoning behind some of those choices? Mountain Troll seems pretty great, better than Sun Giant. Will O' Wisp is good for scouting and hiding, sure, though I think its Natural Invisibility applied to a Void Hound is even better (assuming Natural Invisibility trumps True Seeing.) Apart from that, I don't totally get your choices. Ocularon and Kuo-Toa Leviatan specifically, they don't seem to contribute that much.

There is much reasoning behind every choice. I went through all the monster books for months to pick the best forms.

mountain troll is amazing.

will o'wisp sure is good for scouting/hiding, but the reason you care about him is his magic immunity. one of the few ways to get it outside of golems and it comes with free natural invisibility.

cave troll is an extremely nasty offensive brute with impgrab, pounce, rake, and rend, giving you a long attack routine alongside fast healing once you nab ex SQs and dazing blow with all your natural attacks. it's very difficult to gain immunity to and with all the attacks you make in a round, you're very likely to hit.

tendriculos gives swallow whole and unlike most other monters with the ability, it can paralyze you in its tummy. it's also a very nasty grappler, giving you the huge size very early on and plant immunities protect you from a lot of stuff, letting you save on defensive spells.

chuul is similarly there as a grappler and his constrict abiity really lets you dish out the damage. he's also a rare aquatic monster that can actually beat you up, so is handy if you need to swim and/or breathe underwater so you don't need to burn spells. his paralytic bite is also very nasty.

ironmaw supersedes tendriculos and has all kinds of terrifying abilities including immunity to cold and electric, DR 20/magic, SR 30, a bunch of elemental resistances and all on top of the plant type. your attacks are horrifying as well: you attach tendrils to enemies, deal con damage, wound, and can engulf and immediately force suffocation on top of all your other stuff, plus reel enemies in with your tendrils

gray linnorm is a very rare dragon type, offering you those immunities and it gives you the very desirable crush attack. it has a swim speed, so can take over that role from chuul and has a very nice full attack routine, featuring poison. blindsight 120, darkvision 120 and 1d6con/2d6 con poison from the tail and a 90ft good fly speed (very unusual in a huge monster, much less a dragon) make it a very well-rounded form

ocularons offer fly 90 (perfect) which is unparallelled and make decent grapplers at this level. they're immune to acid, immune to poison, give all-around vision so you can't be flanked, has blindsight and darkvision, and can steal your enemies' eyes and blind them and turn them into exploding gas bombs. that alone makes him an excellent form, but he also has regeneration/silver and keen, so you straight up will not be killed via hit point damage while you're in this form.

arcane ooze gives you normal ooze stuff (e.g. constric, impgrab, acid damage, etc) ooze traits, second only to plant in cool defensive traits and you also nab magic immunity with electric spells hasting you and acid spells replenishing your HP. gives a climb speed too. all around, very mean monster. plus if you turn into him via shapechange you gain his spell siphon ability which forces all arcane casters in 60ft of you to make a fort save or lose their spells, which you turn into HP

leviathan is huge and aquatic and a great grappler, so he's a decent brute. his real appeal is his ex sqs. he's immune to poison, paralysis,webs, and hold x spells, and you can automatically see through figments. you have improved evasion, can see invisible and ethereal monsters, swallow whole, uncanny dodge, and you get your wis bonus to AC.

[Nettlekid]

Those are some good arguments. You've won me over that Will-o-Wisp deserves its own place as a Favored Shape and not just an Infinite Variety option, so that takes out Void Hound. And the Ironmaw's range is probably its best feature, though everything else it offers is great too. I like the idea of using Infinite Variety to give it a Mature Adult Yellow Dragon's movement speeds, which includes Fly 300 (good) and both Swim and Burrow. (Incidentally a Young Adult Yellow Dragon was on this list for a while, and I may consider putting it back on.)

My list now is:
Zern (+4 DC Transmutation spells, 10d6+Int damage ray, Malleable Form, Shifting Guise)
Mountain Troll (Huge, Str 35, Fast Healing 9)
Overseer Beholder (8 tentacles, 3 bites, 10 eye rays)
12-Headed Cryohydra (Many attacks, Fast Healing 22, hard to kill)
Ironmaw (60 ft tendril attack, Con damage, plant immunities)
Arcane Ooze (Magic immunity, ooze immunities, drain spell slots)
Will-o-Wisp (Magic immunity, Natural Invisibility)

Of those, the weakest links are probably the Cryohydra and the Arcane Ooze. I like the Cryohydra for having weird rules that make it harder to fight, and all the heads mean that tacking on something that augments bite attacks or breath weapons is made 12x more effective, but at the end of the day it IS just attacking and tanking. And the Arcane Ooze's biggest plus is its magic immunity, which Will-o-Wisp already has. I like the idea of getting an Ooze in there, and was looking at the Assassin Ooze, but that's mainly for hiding and Will-o-Wisp is better at that. Any better options, any hideous overlaps, and any glaring weaknesses in the roster that need patching?

[Venger]

Those are some good arguments. You've won me over that Will-o-Wisp deserves its own place as a Favored Shape and not just an Infinite Variety option, so that takes out Void Hound. And the Ironmaw's range is probably its best feature, though everything else it offers is great too. I like the idea of using Infinite Variety to give it a Mature Adult Yellow Dragon's movement speeds, which includes Fly 300 (good) and both Swim and Burrow. (Incidentally a Young Adult Yellow Dragon was on this list for a while, and I may consider putting it back on.)

thanks for listening. like I said, I thought long and hard about every one of my shapes.

infinite variety to boost ironmaw's mobility is a good idea.

personally, most dragon forms leave me cold, just being boring tanks, not to mention the dex problem (which us solvable via infinite variety, I suppose) but for the most part there seem to be more interesting shapes out there



My list now is:
Zern (+4 DC Transmutation spells, 10d6+Int damage ray, Malleable Form, Shifting Guise)
Mountain Troll (Huge, Str 35, Fast Healing 9)
Overseer Beholder (8 tentacles, 3 bites, 10 eye rays)
12-Headed Cryohydra (Many attacks, Fast Healing 22, hard to kill)
Ironmaw (60 ft tendril attack, Con damage, plant immunities)
Arcane Ooze (Magic immunity, ooze immunities, drain spell slots)
Will-o-Wisp (Magic immunity, Natural Invisibility)

list looks good. I discounted hydras because they're almost always banned, but if your DM lets 'em in, good on you.



Of those, the weakest links are probably the Cryohydra and the Arcane Ooze. I like the Cryohydra for having weird rules that make it harder to fight, and all the heads mean that tacking on something that augments bite attacks or breath weapons is made 12x more effective, but at the end of the day it IS just attacking and tanking. And the Arcane Ooze's biggest plus is its magic immunity, which Will-o-Wisp already has. I like the idea of getting an Ooze in there, and was looking at the Assassin Ooze, but that's mainly for hiding and Will-o-Wisp is better at that. Any better options, any hideous overlaps, and any glaring weaknesses in the roster that need patching?

Hydra's main problem in practical play is his poor AC and difficulty of maneuverability. he's really slow, but that can be mitigated with infinite variety, I guess.

arcane ooze really isn't a weak point. since you talk about turning into monsters via shapechange, you'll get his spell siphon ability, which is a passive buff that makes it almost impossible for enemy arcane casters to do anything within 60ft of you. they lose spells and it gives you 5 x spl lvl HP.

the only real drawback I see is poor AC since he's an ooze(again, seriously, who cares? as a polymorph specialist, your AC's always gonna suck, so just invest in miss chance like normal people) his movement speed's only 20 also, but it can be mitigated with either infinite variety or other effects, such as overland flight, but most of the time, since he's a melee-focused caster killer, you're gonna take his shape when you're right up in your enemies' grills anyway, so it shouldn't be much of an issue.

arcane ooze's acid is also a very useful utility thing and is quite handy doing things like dissolving walls or locks or what have you, letting you save your spell slots on disintegrate or what have you, plus since he's an ooze, you can pour slip through cracks to get in and out of tight spots, very handy in conjuction with your climb speed

of your list, I'd say that, as you mentioned, hydra really doesn't offer anything that other forms don't.

it's important to remember the mountain troll's knockdown ability, which really helps with BFC due to his reach.

I know zern's a popular form in MT threads, but he's really more of an adventuring form for MOMFs and is better defensively since he packs very little offensive punch at the level you'll want to do anything with him, so it's important not to try to use him offensively, he's just too fragile.

obviously this depends on your game specifically, but I always like to have at least one aquatic form in case I need to do aquatic combat. it lets you cut through a lot of the headache underwater rules bring, move around freely, and if you're doing ship-to-ship combat, drown enemies, which is very rewarding, especially since many good aquatic forms are good grapplers.

I'd seriously consider something that can breathe underwater in addition to swim, since I know the hydra (somehow?) has a swim speed, but if you know your group won't do much water stuff, feel free to ignore it.

I can definitely understand the appeal of the overseer beholder, and if you don't care about regeneration, he fulfills a roughly similar role to the ocularon (for bonus points, add on ocularon's regen through infinite variety)

what will your typical combat strategy look like and what forms will you want to use for what scenarios? this is important to have handy, especially when crunch time comes as to when to use reflexive change and pick what form to turn into.

here's a list of my favorite infinite variety items: please feel free to add to it if you see anything cool/fun I missed.

• Replace the base form’s natural armor bonus with that of
the second form.

Gray Linnorm (MM2 141): +19

• Add the second form’s movement modes.
Earth Glide
Swim
Fly: 50 perfect (will o’ wisp), 120 average (dragonhawk 5N 46)
Burrow (leaves tunnel):
Climb: Perfect climbing (stone drake RoS 190)
Running: 60ft varag

• Add one of the second form’s natural attack types (with
the appropriate reach), if the base form doesn’t have that
attack type already.

• Add an extraordinary special attack of the second form.

Pounce
Imp Grab
Swallow Whole
Mind Feed: Phthisic (XPH 206)
Trample

POISON
STR: Darkweaver 2d4 (FF 39)
DEX:
CON: Guardian Naga 1d10

STATUS
BLIND: Poison spray (swindlespitter MM3 41) secondary 1d4 con
PARALYZE: 1d8+5 weeks Spider eater
ABILITY DAMAGE
Vitality Drain (Dolgaunt ECS 285)


• Add an extraordinary special quality of the second form.

SENSES
Keen Sight (kuo-toa mm 164)

MISC STUFF
Mimic shape (mimic)
Lightning strike (dire tortoise sandstorm 152)
Capsize (dragon turtle)
Airy (snowflake ooze mm3 161)
Increased Damage (fang dragon draconomicon 160)
Rusting Bite (rust dragon draconomicon 187)


REGENERATION

Acid 9: war troll
Sonic 5: crystalline troll

FAST HEALING
15: Steelwling (MM5 168)

IMMUNITIES

ENERGY
Fire: Fire Troll
Acid: Crystalline Troll
Sonic: Destruchan
Cold: Frost Giant
Electric: Shambling Mound

Magic immunity: will o’ wisp

Fort saves: Xern MM4 195

Gaze attacks, illusions, visual effects, etc: Grimlock


• Replace one of the base form’s physical ability scores, if
both the base form and the second form are the same size
Category

STRENGTH
Fine:
Diminutive:
Tiny:
Small:
Medium:
Large: Firbolg 36 (MM2 101)
Huge: 35 Mountain Troll (MM3 180)


DEXTERITY
Fine:
Diminutive:
Tiny:
Small: 29 Will o’ Wisp
Medium: 26 Verdant Prince (MM4 172)
Large: 28 Jungle Giant (SoX 77)
Huge:


CONSTITUTION
Fine:
Diminutive:
Tiny:
Small:
Medium:
Large: 29 dissolution ooze (moI)
Huge: 31 Mountain Troll (MM3 180)

[Nettlekid]

thanks for listening. like I said, I thought long and hard about every one of my shapes.

infinite variety to boost ironmaw's mobility is a good idea.

personally, most dragon forms leave me cold, just being boring tanks, not to mention the dex problem (which us solvable via infinite variety, I suppose) but for the most part there seem to be more interesting shapes out there




list looks good. I discounted hydras because they're almost always banned, but if your DM lets 'em in, good on you.




Hydra's main problem in practical play is his poor AC and difficulty of maneuverability. he's really slow, but that can be mitigated with infinite variety, I guess.

arcane ooze really isn't a weak point. since you talk about turning into monsters via shapechange, you'll get his spell siphon ability, which is a passive buff that makes it almost impossible for enemy arcane casters to do anything within 60ft of you. they lose spells and it gives you 5 x spl lvl HP.

the only real drawback I see is poor AC since he's an ooze(again, seriously, who cares? as a polymorph specialist, your AC's always gonna suck, so just invest in miss chance like normal people) his movement speed's only 20 also, but it can be mitigated with either infinite variety or other effects, such as overland flight, but most of the time, since he's a melee-focused caster killer, you're gonna take his shape when you're right up in your enemies' grills anyway, so it shouldn't be much of an issue.

arcane ooze's acid is also a very useful utility thing and is quite handy doing things like dissolving walls or locks or what have you, letting you save your spell slots on disintegrate or what have you, plus since he's an ooze, you can pour slip through cracks to get in and out of tight spots, very handy in conjuction with your climb speed

of your list, I'd say that, as you mentioned, hydra really doesn't offer anything that other forms don't.

it's important to remember the mountain troll's knockdown ability, which really helps with BFC due to his reach.

I know zern's a popular form in MT threads, but he's really more of an adventuring form for MOMFs and is better defensively since he packs very little offensive punch at the level you'll want to do anything with him, so it's important not to try to use him offensively, he's just too fragile.

obviously this depends on your game specifically, but I always like to have at least one aquatic form in case I need to do aquatic combat. it lets you cut through a lot of the headache underwater rules bring, move around freely, and if you're doing ship-to-ship combat, drown enemies, which is very rewarding, especially since many good aquatic forms are good grapplers.

I'd seriously consider something that can breathe underwater in addition to swim, since I know the hydra (somehow?) has a swim speed, but if you know your group won't do much water stuff, feel free to ignore it.

I can definitely understand the appeal of the overseer beholder, and if you don't care about regeneration, he fulfills a roughly similar role to the ocularon (for bonus points, add on ocularon's regen through infinite variety)

what will your typical combat strategy look like and what forms will you want to use for what scenarios? this is important to have handy, especially when crunch time comes as to when to use reflexive change and pick what form to turn into.

here's a list of my favorite infinite variety items: please feel free to add to it if you see anything cool/fun I missed.

• Replace the base form’s natural armor bonus with that of
the second form.

Gray Linnorm (MM2 141): +19

• Add the second form’s movement modes.
Earth Glide
Swim
Fly: 50 perfect (will o’ wisp), 120 average (dragonhawk 5N 46)
Burrow (leaves tunnel):
Climb: Perfect climbing (stone drake RoS 190)
Running: 60ft varag

• Add one of the second form’s natural attack types (with
the appropriate reach), if the base form doesn’t have that
attack type already.

• Add an extraordinary special attack of the second form.

Pounce
Imp Grab
Swallow Whole
Mind Feed: Phthisic (XPH 206)
Trample

POISON
STR: Darkweaver 2d4 (FF 39)
DEX:
CON: Guardian Naga 1d10

STATUS
BLIND: Poison spray (swindlespitter MM3 41) secondary 1d4 con
PARALYZE: 1d8+5 weeks Spider eater
ABILITY DAMAGE
Vitality Drain (Dolgaunt ECS 285)


• Add an extraordinary special quality of the second form.

SENSES
Keen Sight (kuo-toa mm 164)

MISC STUFF
Mimic shape (mimic)
Lightning strike (dire tortoise sandstorm 152)
Capsize (dragon turtle)
Airy (snowflake ooze mm3 161)
Increased Damage (fang dragon draconomicon 160)
Rusting Bite (rust dragon draconomicon 187)


REGENERATION

Acid 9: war troll
Sonic 5: crystalline troll

FAST HEALING
15: Steelwling (MM5 168)

IMMUNITIES

ENERGY
Fire: Fire Troll
Acid: Crystalline Troll
Sonic: Destruchan
Cold: Frost Giant
Electric: Shambling Mound

Magic immunity: will o’ wisp

Fort saves: Xern MM4 195

Gaze attacks, illusions, visual effects, etc: Grimlock


• Replace one of the base form’s physical ability scores, if
both the base form and the second form are the same size
Category

STRENGTH
Fine:
Diminutive:
Tiny:
Small:
Medium:
Large: Firbolg 36 (MM2 101)
Huge: 35 Mountain Troll (MM3 180)


DEXTERITY
Fine:
Diminutive:
Tiny:
Small: 29 Will o’ Wisp
Medium: 26 Verdant Prince (MM4 172)
Large: 28 Jungle Giant (SoX 77)
Huge:


CONSTITUTION
Fine:
Diminutive:
Tiny:
Small:
Medium:
Large: 29 dissolution ooze (moI)
Huge: 31 Mountain Troll (MM3 180)

Wow, that's a really good list. I have a huge list of things you get from Shapechange alone, but not too many that are added to another form via Infinite Variety. The only list of that I have, which you already posted most of, is:

Dire Tortoise's Lightning Strike
Aspect of Demogorgon's Dual Actions
Zodar's Invulnerability, and Burst of Strength
Temporal Drake's Progressive Initiative, and Recurrence
Maulgoth's Xorn Movement
Nyth's Silence
Kuo-Toa Leviathan's Keen Sight
Taunting Haunt's Font of Knowledge
Shaedling's Shadow Gossamer
Mimic's Imitate Shape
Mature Adult Yellow Dragon's Movement Speeds (all)

My "List of things I can get with Shapechange" is:
Spells/Abilities that other forms can use:
Ability Damage: Ghost (1d4 any), Bane Wraith (Str or Wis, if Str 0, Con), Boneyard (2d4 Str, Dex, Con on bite)
Air Walk: Reth Dekala
Animate Objects: Ravid (automatically 1/round)
Antimagic: Spellgaunt (Bite object, DC 23 Will or become nonmagical. Can disarm magic items), Beholder (Antimagic Cone), Nightwing (Drain enhancement bonus from items), Arcane Ooze (Fort or lose spells), Disenchanter (Weapons which strike it lose an ability or enchantment point, foe struck by tongue gets items drained), Spelleater (Dispelling Ray, greater dispel magic as a ray), Thane (1/day free action Antimagic Field for Con mod rounds), Balhannoth (Know all magic auras and schools within 120 ft, supresses magic effects when grappling), Zern Arcanovore (3/day antimagic field), Nishruu (Negate most spells, gain spell level HP permanently from non-damaging spells, gain would-be damage as permanent HP from damaging spells), Astral Dreadnaught (150 ft cone)
Astral Projection: Nightmare
Battle Form: Concordant Killer (Immune to all energy but sonic, immune to petrification and poison, SR 30, True Seeing, Concordant Greatsword), Chronotyryn (2 rounds/round, 36 AC unbuffed, resist all energy 20 and immune to sonic, SR 31, DR 20/magic, grants Still/Silent Spell), Marruspawn Abomination (Blindsight 120, DR 10/magic and adamantine, Fast Healing 15, SR 32)
Bardic Music: Ruin Chanter (12th level bard)
Bestow Curse: Corruptor of Fate (50% chance inaction)
Blindsight: Desmodu (120 ft), Fire Bat (120 ft), Dragonflesh Golem (150 ft), Yrthak (120 ft), Keeper (200 ft)
Blindness/Deafness: Marut, Nymph (Blind only)
Breath Weapon: Dread Linnorm (12d6 fire/ice, two heads. Also negative level bite, and fling 120 ft for 12d6)
Chain Lightning: Overseer
Charisma Damage: Deathshrieker (1d4 drain), Visilight (Grapple/Pin, 1d6, gain the drain to self, lose at a rate of 1/hour), Paeliryon, Joystealer (Drain to 0 and steal all emotions), Cinderspawn (1d6)
Charm Person: Beholder, Spirit Naga (gaze)
Chill Metal: Ice Paraelemental
Cold Damage: Retriever (12d6, Ref. half)
Command Winds: Living Holocaust
Confusion: Umber Hulk, Sorrowsworn Demon, Whisper Demon (Pokemon style confusion), Remmanon (Foes within 60 ft)
Constitution Damage: Dread Wraith (1d8 drain), Ulgurstasta (1d8/round when in stomach), Blood Amniote (1d4)
Crushing Despair: Overseer
Damage Reduction: Pit Fiend (15, good and silver)
Daze: Sorrowsworn Demon
Death Attack: Shadow Giant, Marrulurk
Death Ward: Lumi, Void Ooze
Debuff: Sorrowsworn Demon (-2 on attack, save, skills, DC 20+spell level Concentration to cast spells), Night twist (In the evening, creatures within 5 miles affected as Crushing Despair and must seek it out), Ruin Chanter
Defense: Will-o-Wisp (High AC), Astral Stalker (Cha to AC and saves), Zodar (Construct, immune to all but bludgeoning attacks), Skindancer (DR 15 to last weapon that hit, energy resist 20 to last energy that hit), Vasuthant (3/day free action to force reroll of any die), Corruptor of Fate (roll twice for attack and damage, use lower result), Arcadian Avenger (3/day, attack or saving throw rolls 10), Mockery Monarch (All targeted spells are reflected)
Detect Thoughts: Doppelganger, Rakshasa
Dexterity Damage: Spectral Lurker (1d6 drain on grapple)
Disintegrate: Beholder
Dimensional Anchor: Ethereal Slayer
Dimensional Lock: Balhannoth (20 ft on self)
Disguise: Ahuizotl (Bluff check to mimic voice)
Dispel Magic: Gauth
Dispel Psionics: Psion-Killer (1/round, free action, 30 ft burst)
Divination: Weirds (Analyze Dweomer, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Contact Other Plane, Detect Thoughts, Discern Location, Find the Path, Foresight, Greater Scrying, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Tongues, True Seeing, Vision), Vitreous Drinker (Steal eyesight, see through stolen eyes, see through spectral raven's eyes.)
Dominate Person: Aboleth (new save every 24 hours), Gulthir (Dominate Monster by grappling, swallowing, and spitting up), Overseer
Drown: Drowned
Dusk and Dawn: Shadow Elemental
Electric Boost: Shambling Mound (1d4 Con when hit by electric), Zeugalak (1d4 Dex when hit by electric)
Electric Damage: Retriever (12d6, Ref. half)
Enervation: Kolyarut, Spectre (2 negative levels)
Entangle: Briarvex, Wizened Elder
Ethereal Jaunt: Phase Spider
Etherealness: Nightmare
Extra Actions: Choker (move/standard), Chronotyryn (extra turn)
Fast Healing: Juggernaut (10, also crush ability 10d10+20), 12-Headed Hyda (22, also fire or ice breath 12x3d6)
Fear: Beholder, Ice Devil
Feats: Midgard Dwarf (Various Craft Magic), Fensir (Brew Potion), Keeper (Spring Attack), Spelleater Sarkrith (Shot on the Run), Shedu (Flyby Attack), Arcanist Varrangoin (Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand), Blink Dog (Track), Choker (Improved Initiative), Couatl (Eschew Materials), Marrulurk (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot)
Finger of Death: Beholder
Flesh to Ice: Chilblain
Flesh to Stone: Beholder, Retriever, Medusa (gaze)
Fire Damage: Retriever (12d6, Ref. half)
Freedom of Movement: Spider Eater, Ken-Sun, Hound of the Hunt
Globe of Invulnerability: Ghaele (Lesser)
Grapple: Kraken (44, 2d8+12 constrict), Purple Worm (40, Swallow Whole), Remorhaz (23, Swallow Whole with Fire Damage), Cadaver Collector (24, Impale), Hullathoin (26, Can grapple multiple without being considered grappled)
Grease: Boggle (Touch)
Greater Dispel Magic: Overseer
Haboob: Camelopardel
Healing: Lifeleech Otyugh (gain benefit of cure spells within 60 ft), Graveyard Sludge (Heal from Cure and Inflict)
Hold Monster: Overseer
HP Drain: Myrlochar (1 in 6 chance to drain 1 HP permanently from bitten foe, and gain that HP)
Hypnotic Pattern: Ultroloth (no HD limit)
Inflict Moderate Wounds: Beholder
Intelligence Damage: Amnizu (2d4)
Invisibility: Phantom Fungus (Greater, cannot be purged), Pixie (Greater), Will-o-Wisp (Natural)
Locate Creature: Iron Cobra
Magic Circle Against X: Angels (Evil), Ghaele (Evil)
Magic Missile: Nyth
Major Creation: Overseer
Manipulation: Verdant Prince (Strike an oath, failure causes -6 to all stats), Taunting Haunt (make target say opposite of intent), Greater Doppelganger (Can eat brains, retain memory, persona, and abilities (such as spellcasting) of eaten foe. Can retain 1 identity/HD, and must adhere to assumed identity's alignment or be forced into normal form for 1d10 rounds. Humanoid only.)
Martial Maneuvers: Naityan Rakshasa (with different forms: Mountain Hammer, Charging Minotaur, Strength of Stone Stance| Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun, Flame's Blessing Stance| Ghost Blade, Shadow Garrote, Island of Blades Stance| Baffling Defense, Feigned Opening, Shifting Defense Stance), Reth Dekala (Martial Spirit Stance, Thicket of Blades Stance, Daunting Strike, Death From Above, Disarming Strike, Entagling Blade, Wall of Blades), Valkyrie (Prey on the Weak Stance, Charging Minotaur, Clever Positioning, Devastating Throw, Mountain Avalanche, Pouncing Charge, Wolf Fang Strike, Boulder Roll, Baffling Defense, Counter Charge)
Maze: Brass Golem (1/day)
Mind Blank: Yochlol
Mind Fog: Paeliryon (All within 30 ft)
Modify Memory: Xerfilstyx (with Grapple check)
Negative Energy: Shadesteel Golem (1d4+1 rounds, 40 ft pulse of 12d6)
Negative Levels: Crypt Chanter (Daze, Enthrall, 1d2 negative levels while enthralled)
Paralysis: Gauth (2d10 minutes), 10-Headed Shrieking Terror
Pass Without Trace: Barghest
Plane Shift: Ether Scarab (hole closes in 1d4+1 rounds), Phoenix (can travel Ethereal and Astral Planes at will), Bebelith (Plane Shift)
Poison: Purple Worm
Poison Immunity: All Devils
Ray of Exhaustion: Gauth
Regeneration: Fire Bat (5, cold), Planetar (10, evil), Ice Devil (5, good), War Troll (9, acid)
Sanctuary: Harvester Devil (always active)
Sand Form: Harssaf
Save or Die: Thought Slayer (Gaze attack, Fort), Atropial Scion (Gaze Attack), Boneyard (Pin and grapple again to kill)
Scorching Ray: Gauth (4d6, 1 ray)
See Invisibility: Kelvezu
Shapechange: Malaugrym
Silence: Myrlochar, Nyth
Skills: Lilitu (Auto UMD), Chronotyryn (All Knowledges have 10 ranks), Taunting Haunt (All Knowledges maxed), Visage (Gain Skill Rank bonus to skills of victim killed in last round)
Sleep: Beholder
Slow: Beholder, Ice Devil
Sneak Attack: Kelvezu (8d6)
Sonic Damage: Yrthak (6d6, 1/2 rounds)
Sonic Immunity: Slaad, Knell Beetle (1/5 heal)
Speak with Plants: Wizened Elder
Speed: Air Spirit of Land (120 ft fly, perfect), Xorn (Earth Glide)
Spell Immunity: Overseer
Spell Resistance: Pit Fiend (32)
Spell Turning: Overseer
Spider Climb: Web Golem
Steal Spells: Ethereal Doppelganger, Reason Stealer
Step Into Shadow: Ephemeral Hangman
Stone Shape: Delver (1/10 minutes)
Strength Damage: Greater Shadow (1d8)
Stun: Nymph, Yagnoloth, Sorrowsworn Demon, Malastor, Overseer
Suggestion: Overseer
Sunder: Rampager (Armor), Rust Monster, Dust Wight (metal/stone), Ooze Paraelemental (wood/metal, armor/clothes)
Summon Rat Swarm: Plague Spewer (4/day)
Surprise Round: Dire Tortoise (Always gets a surprise round, foes are always flat-footed)
Symbol of Pain: Logokron Devil
Telekinesis: Beholder, Guecubu, Overseer
Telekinetic Force: Unbodied
Telepathy: Braxat (1 mile), Queen Formian (50 miles)
Teleport: Archon (Greater Teleport at will, self+50 lbs), Bar-lgura (Greater, bring people with)
Temporal Stasis: Overseer
Time Hop: Temporal Filcher (Grapple foe, take along for 7 minutes)
Tongues: Archon
Treewalk: Wood Woad
Tremorsense: Darktentacles (30 ft), Galeb Duhr (300 ft)
True Seeing: Nethersight Mastiff, Avoral
Truespeak: Garbler (Random: Defensive Edge (reversed), Morale Boost (reversed), Temporal Twist (reversed), Greater Speed of the Zephyr (reversed), Spell Rebirth (reversed), Preternatural Clarity (reversed)), Painspeaker (Moderate Word of Nurturing (reversed))
True Strike: Blighted Bloodfire Ooze, Concordant Killer
Undead Control: Necrothane Rot Reaver (rebuke/control, drain unlife, animate dead), Susurrus, Hullathoin
Vampiric Touch: Kolyarut
Wall of Ice: Shaboath (1/minute)
Wisdom Damage: Allip (1d4 Drain), Lamia (1d4 Drain), Murk (1d6)


And that's by no means extensive or optimized, just me picking out mostly Su abilities from creatures I saw. If this campaign happens it would likely be a dragon-fighting campaign, so a lot of Grappling techniques and stuff like that are kind of out of my reach, but the versatility based on the encounter would be a huge plus.