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joe
2007-03-11, 02:52 AM
So I got into a slight dispute with a player in a game I was DMing, and I figured I'd get the opinions of everyone here. The dispute in particular was about a horse, or more correctly, a Paladin's mount.

Now horses typically don't enter dungeons. Horses fear caves, don't fit, etc. However the paladin of the party was demanding that his Mount enter the cave, stating as it is smarter than a standard horse and significantly braver, it should be able to enter with no trouble. After a good bit of arguement on the matter, I conceded to letting his mount enter the cave, mainly because I would otherwise be taking away from one of his class powers.

I guess I'm asking if anyone else sees an issue with a Paladin's mount entering the cave, or if I'm the only one that has a problem with this.

Dhavaer
2007-03-11, 02:55 AM
It'd go in, but riding it would be a problem unless the ceilings were really high.

kamikasei
2007-03-11, 03:01 AM
It's just as Dhavaer says. Consider that the paladin's mount isn't just some horse he's bought and trained (if it were, he should be able to lead it to strange places with a good Handle Animal check, anyhow). It's a celestial beast sent him by the gods, to which he is closely attuned, like a mage's familiar. It has an Int score appropriate to a dim human rather than the craftiest of animals, and an empathic link with its master. So yeah, while there may be mechanical difficulties with certain uses of a mount in a dungeon, it shouldn't be any harder to lead about than would a low-Int but very loyal and obedient cohort.

Consider also precedent, as in, Aragorn and Legolas taking their horses into the Paths of the Dead.

greenknight
2007-03-11, 03:03 AM
I guess I'm asking if anyone else sees an issue with a Paladin's mount entering the cave, or if I'm the only one that has a problem with this.

I'd say a Paladin's mount could enter a cave, but it could face movement issues. Still, I'd allow it to go anywhere a mule or donkey could, unless it's an unusual mount, in which case you should judge on its size and the movement types available to the mount.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-11, 03:04 AM
I'd agree with the paladin, it's not really a horse anymore ... it's an intelligent being loyal to the paladin. We can overcome our instincts, so can it.

JaronK
2007-03-11, 03:34 AM
Absolutely. It's fully intelligent and it's a divine soldier sent by the gods to fight side by side (or back by bottom?) with the paladin. Of course it can enter.

JaronK

cylepher
2007-03-11, 06:10 AM
Personally, I believe it all depends on whether the logistics of a horse being in a dungeon make sense. No matter how intelligent a horse, or a paladin's mount is, if there is a narrow spiraling staircase, there is no way that thing is gonna get down to the bottom without some rather high difficulties, like falling down onto the rest of the party.

And as for taking away from a character's abilities, theres nothing in the rules that say that all players must have all abilities at all times. Since when were anti-magic circles fair to spellcasters. Oh yeah, walk into one of those, and all of a sudden, your magic missile gatling gun of doom is as useless as a 3rd level commoner. Remember, the horse being in the dungeon is fine, but how is the horse gonna get there? Show me a horse that can bellycrawl a narrow tunnel that the half-orc is trying to squeeze through, and I'll let your horse fly. ;)

Hypothetical
2007-03-11, 06:25 AM
I have to agree with Cy.

OK, sure, if it's a big, open area, then I would have no problems assuming that a Pally's mount could be there. However, if you are working your way through a 3 ft by 5 ft tunnel in a mountain, I hate to say it, but no, no Horse, no matter how devinley endowed by a God or Gods, is going to be there. It's a simple matter of volume. I am fairly conversant of the size of horses, seeing as my aunt is a Horse Trainer, and no horse is going to fit down that small of a hole. ( Hell, for the most part, there are a large number of PCs out there who wouldn't fit down a tunnel that size.) OK, a Pony, maybe, but show me a Paladin who rides a Pony, and I'll show you a Halfling with Delusions of Granduer.

Maglor_Grubb
2007-03-11, 06:32 AM
Isn't 'dismiss' -> crawl through small places -> 'summon' an option?

PinkysBrain
2007-03-11, 06:34 AM
It gets bonus HD ... so it can take ranks in escape artist. With a DC30 check you can move through any hole large enough to accommodate your head (you can take 20).

Jasdoif
2007-03-11, 06:40 AM
A paladin's warhorse is both intelligent and loyal, it's capable of deciding to put itself into a possibly inconvenient situation for a purpose, and its loyalty gives it reason to do so. Besides, a paladin could call for his/her mount while underground in the first place, making the question of voluntary entry moot.

A creature can squeeze into a space half its width, although it moves at half speed and takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls and AC while doing so. Thus a paladin's warhorse can squeeze through passages the paladin can walk through, and half speed for a warhorse is still faster then a standard paladin in heavy armor so it wouldn't slow a typical paladin or party down.

So I don't see a reason why the special mount couldn't go on dungeon expeditions.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-11, 06:58 AM
It gets bonus HD ... so it can take ranks in escape artist. With a DC30 check you can move through any hole large enough to accommodate your head (you can take 20).

I voted yes because of it's intelligence. I'd still question the efficiency in most cases. But with this, which is just awesome, you could get your mount through a manhole cover...

Realistic? No. Works in RAW? Yes.

You could justify it as the mount learning to temporarily disrupt it's form on the material plane which would fit nicely with the whole summoned mount thing.

reorith
2007-03-11, 08:10 AM
my paladin never gives his mount that option and usually calls it to flank with him halfway through the crawl :)

Matthew
2007-03-11, 08:22 AM
Hmmn. As a literary analogue, Aragorn and his companions were able to lead their horses along the 'Paths of the Dead' in the book, on account of Aragorn's 'strength of will.'

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-11, 10:03 AM
It all depends on the size of the horse. Using a shrinking spell on it, or using the Dismiss, Crawl, Summon tactic will help if it is a large horse. However, if you were using an Awakened Owl Paladin (My most retarded idea ever), then your celestial mount will be able to fit through the hole.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-11, 11:48 AM
If a player continued to take paladin levels after 5, it was more or less entirely for the horse. So long as a horse can reasonably fit through the dungeon and the player can solve problems like stairwells, I don't see why the paladin should be gimped.

Sahune
2007-03-11, 12:06 PM
Consider also precedent, as in, Aragorn and Legolas taking their horses into the Paths of the Dead.

I don't recall Tolkein creating his stories from 3.5. He got trolls all wrong for a start and the Loyal Frodo Companion PrC is woefully underpowered.

Personally, (unless the cave/dungeon is big, airy and has a lot of room to move) I'd advise the players about caves, small spaces, and the difficulty of moving something with a huge rear end backwards at speed down a narrow corridor followed by screaming goblins. This could be followed by a rundown on the local glue and celestial dogfood prices to drive the point home. If they still want to do it, hey, it's their mount. After a while they'll have to take it back outside or dismiss it if they come to a problem getting it through an obstacle anyway. You don't have to give everything to players all the time, let real-life problems show their face now and again.

Try lugging all that crap home by yourself if your horse falls in a pit trap by the way, it horses are very heavy beasts... and noisy, clip clop clip clop with metal horsehoes. Plus if the horse has the intelligence of a dim human and not a smart animal, who is to say it will do the smart thing all the time?

GM: The floor breaks and you start sliding down what seems to be a steep slope.
Paladin: Quick, someone help!
GM: You can't see much but you can slow yourself down a bit. (Roll.) You land at the bottom with a thud, a little battered and dizzy. You hear the noise of a heavy sack of meat rolling down a steep slope emitting a frantic braying noise...

Don't get me wrong, if there's a good reason, sure, Mr Ed can come on down. You go right ahead. It'll be back in 30 days anyway.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-11, 12:13 PM
I dunno, the Loyal Frodo Companion got you the awesome Mega Rage ability, which lets you do things that should probably be next to impossible so long as you're pumped about it.

Stagger Lee
2007-03-11, 12:17 PM
I'd rule it as completely legal, but a bad idea.

Lemur
2007-03-11, 12:34 PM
Isn't 'dismiss' -> crawl through small places -> 'summon' an option?

As far as I know, the paladin can only summon his mount once per day, so dismissing and re-summoning isn't really an option.

However, if he hadn't used it yet, he could very well summon his mount inside a dungeon, for one of those really tough fights against a big creature. If there's room for a dragon, there should be room to fight on horseback.

Galathir
2007-03-11, 01:01 PM
I would let the Paladin try to bring his mount along. As an intelligent beast, I think it could handle it. Whether it would be a good idea or not is another question. It also depends a lot on they type of dungeon you are going through.

Starbuck_II
2007-03-11, 03:37 PM
As far as I know, the paladin can only summon his mount once per day, so dismissing and re-summoning isn't really an option.

However, if he hadn't used it yet, he could very well summon his mount inside a dungeon, for one of those really tough fights against a big creature. If there's room for a dragon, there should be room to fight on horseback.
Correct and this is a retarded rule limit. what would be overpowered about unsummon + resummoning?
Is it so Paladins fearing for their mounts safety can't unsummon in battle than resummon after to heal it?

goat
2007-03-11, 05:23 PM
I'd let them take certain normal ponies with them.

Specifically, pit-ponies.

PnP Fan
2007-03-11, 07:17 PM
I agree with your player, in so far as the horse is more than just a regular old horse. The dismisal/summoning thing is the way to get around that. Of course, unless your paly spent feats on mounted combat, I'm not entirely sure how much of a benefit the horse is.

Person_Man
2007-03-11, 09:42 PM
Non-intelligent mounts generally won't go underground.

Intelligent mounts will. But a horse is still a Large animal. A Large animal can't go through a subterranean space built for medium creatures without taking squeeze penalties: It moves at half speed and takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls and AC while doing so (DMG pg. 29), as Jasdoif pointed out.

If you want to ride your Large animal in such spaces without such penalties, you can take the Tunnel Riding feat, from Races of Stone.

If you want to avoid the penalties and not waste any feats, I suggest being a Small PC, like a Halfling, who rides a medium sized mount.