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Psykenthrope
2014-09-14, 02:55 PM
Hey, I'm trying to figure out how much about the Dresdenverse a player would need to know in order to play in a Dresden Files game.
It would be using the official Dresden Files RPG from Evil Hat Games. If my information is correct, the game is "set" for a little before the events at the end of "Changes". By which I mean the information for character building in the book is, I think, set at around that time.
What I'm trying to figure out is how much of the series a potential player would need to have read in order to understand how things work in the Dresdenverse.

Red Fel
2014-09-14, 03:24 PM
Hey, I'm trying to figure out how much about the Dresdenverse a player would need to know in order to play in a Dresden Files game.
It would be using the official Dresden Files RPG from Evil Hat Games. If my information is correct, the game is "set" for a little before the events at the end of "Changes". By which I mean the information for character building in the book is, I think, set at around that time.
What I'm trying to figure out is how much of the series a potential player would need to have read in order to understand how things work in the Dresdenverse.

Disclaimer: I haven't played the game, but I've read all the books.

All that said: It depends. Remember, for example, that a lot of the conflict in the books comes from Dresden not knowing enough. In other words, a Wizard with enough information can pretty much accomplish anything; the drama comes from missing the pieces of the puzzle. In almost every book, Dresden runs into things he doesn't yet know or understand; as the series progresses, Dresden gets deeper and deeper into stuff that most people - even many high-ranking Wizards - don't know. So the average player, assuming he's playing the average Wizard, wouldn't actually need to have read all that much. Most of what the average Wizard knows could be summarized fairly easily.

Magic: Wizards with any training will know the basics about magic - circles, veils and the like. Wizards with more than instinct will also know the Seven Laws, or at the very least the First Law (no killing humans with magic). Vampires: Most Wizards will be aware that Vampires exist. They will at the very least be aware of the Red Court, with which the Wizards are at war as of Changes. They may be aware of the White Court and the Black Court. They probably won't be aware of the Jade Court except by reputation, as that's a bit outside of their zone of influence. Note that if the setting takes place after Changes, knowledge of the Red Court will be in the past tense. Fae: Most Wizards will be aware that the Fae exist. They will likely be aware that there is a Summer Court, a Winter Court, and a group of non-affiliated Fae (Wyldfae). They may be aware of the Hunt. They probably won't know any Fae by name unless it's explicitly in their background. As a general rule, they will know that Fae are Bad News, and to be avoided on principle. They will also probably be aware that the Fae never lie. Other races: Wizards are unlikely to know of Dragons as anything outside of myth. Wizards may know of Ghouls. They may be aware of Demons, but are unlikely to know of Denarians. They may be aware that there are myths about creatures known as Outsiders, but are highly unlikely to know more than that. They may be aware of certain types of shapechangers. To a large extent, their knowledge of any of the aforementioned creatures will depend upon whether they have any kind of specialization in that area. (E.g. a Wizard specializing in fire spells and precision demolitions is unlikely to have encountered skinchangers unless he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.) They are unlikely to know about the Fomor, as the Fomor really didn't rise to power until after Changes. Organizations: As mentioned, Wizards are unlikely to know about the Denarians. They probably won't know about the Knights of the Cross unless they have ties to the Church. They are unlikely to know about Angels, even if they do have ties to the Church. They are very unlikely to know about the Fellowship of St. Giles, as it is an extremely young and small organization. They will not know about the Venatori, because that's the whole purpose of the Venatori. They may know of the Ordo Lebes or the Paranet, but are unlikely to belong to them - these organizations were formed by people who are not as powerful as Wizards, and thus need strength in numbers. All Wizards will be aware of the Senior Council and the Wardens; they will not be aware of the Blackstaff, "Black Council" or "Gray Council."As a general rule, if Harry is unaware of something, there's a very good chance that the average Wizard will be unaware of it.
The stuff in the spoiler above can be pretty easily distilled down to simple notes on a single piece of paper, copied for the reference of each player. Any knowledge beyond the basics would likely require some sort of Knowledge check (or whatever is the DFRPG equivalent). Although reading the books would give flavor and depth to the concepts, it really shouldn't be necessary for the average Wizard. The stuff described above should cover the vast majority of bases, no reading required.

Rater202
2014-09-14, 04:00 PM
The RPG takes place after small favour, though there's an upcoming supplement that will update it to post Changes, as well as include Expanded information from Paranetters, and update some templates.

So new settings and perspectives and information that Harry doesn't have, which is important.

Remember, the first two books are written from Harry's perspective-they're only as acurate as Harry's knoledge is, and there's lots harry doesn't know.

Most notably from the First Book(Your Story)The Changeling Template says that a changeling who goes full Fey loses their soul.

After Molly Carpenter becomes the new Winter Lady, someone asked Jim Butcher in an interview if that meant she lost her soul. Mr. Butcher Responded that a Mortal(including Changelings) who become Fey don't automatically lose their souls, but even if they keep it they have lots of power to play with which can leed to them losing it later.

Some of the Sponserd Magics don't seem very accurate. Kemmlarian Necromancy is just "Necromancy that Kemmlar invented" and such shouldn't actually have a sponser becuase it's not coming from anywhere, and Soul Fire, at least as Harry's using it, seems to be him using his own power in a different way.

Psykenthrope
2014-09-14, 04:21 PM
To Red Fel:
I kind of meant something more along the lines of "how much should a player playing a magic user know about how magic works in the setting?"

To Rater202:
Not entirely sure why Kemmlerian Necromancy is sponsored, beyond its power scale. But Soulfire is definitely sponsored. It may not be an uplink to an external power source the way Hellfire and the Fae magics are, but you do have to be given the ability to generate and use Soulfire before you can do anything with it. And it DOES use your soul as fuel.

Rater202
2014-09-14, 04:50 PM
To Rater202:
Not entirely sure why Kemmlerian Necromancy is sponsored, beyond its power scale. But Soulfire is definitely sponsored. It may not be an uplink to an external power source the way Hellfire and the Fae magics are, but you do have to be given the ability to generate and use Soulfire before you can do anything with it. And it DOES use your soul as fuel.

Yeah, but think about it, it's using your soul as fuel, yes.

Which means it's not coming from an external source.

Harry isn't borrowing power from Uriel when he uses it.

which means he shouldn't be able to trade a compel for a free fate channel, because noones giving the power to him. He's got it, but it's his power, not a power he's borrowing.

So it's "sponsered" in that it was a gift, but the way Harry uses it is inconsistant with the way it is depicted in the RPG and the way the other sponsered magics are

Psykenthrope
2014-09-14, 06:24 PM
Yeah, but think about it, it's using your soul as fuel, yes.

Which means it's not coming from an external source.

Harry isn't borrowing power from Uriel when he uses it.

which means he shouldn't be able to trade a compel for a free fate channel, because noones giving the power to him. He's got it, but it's his power, not a power he's borrowing.

So it's "sponsered" in that it was a gift, but the way Harry uses it is inconsistant with the way it is depicted in the RPG and the way the other sponsered magics are

But the ability to do all that, I'm pretty sure it can be taken away.

Coidzor
2014-09-14, 07:02 PM
Let's see, we had one person who was completely caught up, the GM was up to Ghost Story but had missed one or two books (Specifically the one where he Necromanced Sue the T-Rex and the other one that was in that omnibus) and read those and caught up with Ghost Story mid-campaign, one of us was just starting the series, and then I had read up through the first 3 omnibuses and was in the process of locating my lost copy of the book after that. Silly, I know.

We did fairly well with the material we were familiar with, I think, though we only got through two arcs before we had to break off due to scheduling becoming increasingly problematic due to job changes.

Edit: So I would say that while someone could probably play just having read through the materials for players, probably the first 3-5 novels would provide a good basis.

Rater202
2014-09-14, 07:05 PM
But the ability to do all that, I'm pretty sure it can be taken away.

Has neither been confirmed or denied, and either way it's irrelevent.

Think of the Way Harry using Soul Fire is treated, compared to the way using his Winter Knight Powers is.

When he uses Soul Fire, he's burning part of himself away, giving up part of his soul o add all of his being to his spells. At no point is it described as him using someone elses power, or that he's drawing on or leaning on something. It's refered to as a "Power given to him" rather than a "Power he can borrow"

Compare that the way his Winter Knight powers work. It;s consistently described as him drawing on, or leaning on the power of the Winter Court, and trying to act against Mab's rules or her wishes means that he immediate loses that bit of winter inside him until he changes his mind. At one point it's said that for all intents and Purposes, the Mantle of the Winter Knight is a part of Mab's power, and that Harry effectively has Part of Mab within him.

The First sounds like an innate ability.

The second definitely sounds like Sponsored magic as described in the RPG.

so, either Soulfire wielded by Mortals is normally sponsered, but Uriel ddid something to Harry so harry has his own instead of using God's/Uriel's, or Soulfire isn't sponsered magic and should not be treated as such.

Coidzor
2014-09-14, 07:26 PM
To Red Fel:
I kind of meant something more along the lines of "how much should a player playing a magic user know about how magic works in the setting?"

Oh, uh, I figured the RPG books themselves covered it pretty well, actually. :smallconfused: There's a couple of wonky areas as have been covered by mention in this thread.

No idea how you'd adjust Soulfire or Kemmlerian Necromancy off the top of my head, though.

Red Fel
2014-09-14, 07:48 PM
Oh, uh, I figured the RPG books themselves covered it pretty well, actually. :smallconfused: There's a couple of wonky areas as have been covered by mention in this thread.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I assumed. I just figured the books covered the mechanical issues, and you were asking about what setting-specific knowledge the players would need from the books.

As I said, I'm not familiar with the game, so I really can't speak to what book-knowledge the players will need to use the mechanics provided in the game. Really, the major magical rules the books could cover are laid out pretty early in the series: Circles are awesome and serve to focus magic. They're also highly effective barriers against purely magical beings/powers. Use them a lot. Flowing water disrupts magic. Very useful when imprisoning Wizards. Very annoying when you're trying to cast spells through/across it. Sunrise dispels lingering enchantments. Veils and glamors are a thing. Some people are good at those. Names are powerful, but inflection really, really matters.Again, these are laid out very, very early in the books, and are probably expressed in the game rules as well, so I'm not sure that much reading of the series is required. (Recommended, though. Awesome series.)

Psykenthrope
2014-09-14, 08:13 PM
Yeah, this is pretty much what I assumed. I just figured the books covered the mechanical issues, and you were asking about what setting-specific knowledge the players would need from the books.

As I said, I'm not familiar with the game, so I really can't speak to what book-knowledge the players will need to use the mechanics provided in the game. Really, the major magical rules the books could cover are laid out pretty early in the series: Circles are awesome and serve to focus magic. They're also highly effective barriers against purely magical beings/powers. Use them a lot. Flowing water disrupts magic. Very useful when imprisoning Wizards. Very annoying when you're trying to cast spells through/across it. Sunrise dispels lingering enchantments. Veils and glamors are a thing. Some people are good at those. Names are powerful, but inflection really, really matters.Again, these are laid out very, very early in the books, and are probably expressed in the game rules as well, so I'm not sure that much reading of the series is required. (Recommended, though. Awesome series.)

Ok, I think I can work with that. Might actually be interesting to run with someone who doesn't know the setting, but has read the RPG books cover to cover.

EDIT: To Rater 202
As much as I would normally love to continue our debate, I must agree that it's pointless, and nonproductive towards my current goals.

Rater202
2014-09-14, 08:20 PM
No idea how you'd adjust Soulfire or Kemmlerian Necromancy off the top of my head, though.

The Jim-Butcher forums have a section on homebrew'd stuff. There's a lot of "Self Sponsored" magics, that have no Agenda and no fate channels for in exchange for compels.

Since examples of it are "Greater Warding" and "Improved Pyromancy" Kemlerrian Necromancy works there pretty well.

Soulfire as Harry uses it could work in a similar way, but should probably provide a track of "Soul Stress" you can use instead of or in addition too to power your spells, with complications o it being healed by "Good Deeds, Good Friends, and Good Living".

Or ditch the Agenda(or limit it to "Don't be evil" and instead of Compels following the Agenda, you're compelled to do the above listed actions.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-09-15, 11:28 AM
Most of the stuff that relies on later books is little liner notes and one-off mentions of things, particularly in Your Story. (It sounds like Our World is more densely packed with spoiler material.) As mentioned before, the first few books cover more than enough of the cosmology.

Hyooz
2014-09-16, 06:10 PM
The Jim-Butcher forums have a section on homebrew'd stuff. There's a lot of "Self Sponsored" magics, that have no Agenda and no fate channels for in exchange for compels.

Since examples of it are "Greater Warding" and "Improved Pyromancy" Kemlerrian Necromancy works there pretty well.

Self-Sponsored magic is a very flexible system overall. I am a fan in general, even if it is a little shaky from a narrative perspective. I think a tweaked Self-Sponsored magic with themed compels like you've mentioned would work best for Soulfire.

It also helps concepts like Focused Practicioners actually be better at what they do than a standard wizard.

Rater202
2014-09-16, 06:20 PM
Self-Sponsored magic is a very flexible system overall. I am a fan in general, even if it is a little shaky from a narrative perspective. I think a tweaked Self-Sponsored magic with themed compels like you've mentioned would work best for Soulfire.

It also helps concepts like Focused Practicioners actually be better at what they do than a standard wizard.

Two powers from here definitely help, too (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Spellcraft)
Focused Study [–0]
Musts: Channeling and/or Ritual.
Description: Experienced focused practitioners learn in time how to refine and focus their abilities, gaining a deeper understanding of their one particular area of study.
Skills Affected: Discipline, Conviction, Lore.
Effects:
Intense Focus. You have chosen to focus heavily upon one particular application of spellcraft. When you take this power you forever give up the ability to upgrade Channeling to Evocation or upgrade Ritual to Thaumaturgy.
Focused Specialization. You may now choose to gain specialization bonuses when buying the Refinement power.

Focused Mastery [-1]
Musts: Focused Study
Description: With experience comes eventual mastery. A few focused practitioners have learned how to unlock their full potential and gain an incredible amount of mastery over their chosen area of spellcraft.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore
Effects:
Esoteric Lore. You roll Lore at +1 when dealing with magic particular to your area of focus (as determined by your element, ritual, or theme).
Potent Specialization. You no longer need to structure your specialization bonuses for each ability according to the same “column” limits for skills (see page 65). You still cannot have any specialization bonuses higher than your Lore skill.

Hyooz
2014-09-16, 07:33 PM
The Jim Butcher boards really do excellent work. One of the better first-party RPG boards I've spent time on.

cesius
2014-09-16, 09:33 PM
One of my players had not read the books and thought the 1st book gave enough info to make a character. He ended up playing an Involuntary Wereplatypus (he was cursed by a dying practitioner) Fairy Knight and it worked out quite well.